Just to prove that I'm a very reasonable person, I make this unconditional offer...
If Michael can identify which of my JavaScript and Python articles are in error and point out the specific falsehoods, I will correct them. I presume that not ALL of my criticisms are unjustified. This should assuage any concerns that JavaScript and Python developers who read my articles are mislead and think I don't know what I'm talking about. I trust this will prevent Smalltalk (and Pharo) from being placed in a bad light. See? I can be very accommodating. I look forward to the suggested amendments. horrido wrote > BTW, I've also said many unkind things about Python. And C++. And Scala > and > Swift. But I'm being criticized for what I've said about JavaScript? > Really??? > > There is certainly no hint of bias here. > > > > Michael J. Zeder wrote >> Hey Ben, >> >> I leave it with this answer, as you suggested, thank you for picking up >> the ball! >> First, I admit again, I have thought about it one whole day, if and how >> I should do this "intervention", which is absolutly not my usual style, >> but I decided for myself, to be intentionally blunt, provocative, and >> parade his virtual presence around here in front of all Pharo users... >> In the hope that this kicks off something and, of course, that it will >> not be the final word. >> >> I tried to avoid being seen as the hurt one (seems, that I did not >> quite succeed with this). Javascript is most popular, so R.K. Eng >> cannot damage this platform with his – let's say... – "opinions", >> but he can damage Smalltalk and its small community. So I started with >> making noise, not with the story from my client's managers, who >> dismissed Pharo, because of his highly ranked Google search results – >> last year (But in fact, I was annoyed two days ago, I was googling >> actually a very specific topic about compiler optimization in >> prototype-based OO, and R.K. Engs ill-informed superficial "lecturing" >> rants showed up again at third or fourth place, I think, sigh). >> >> Short answers to your questions: >> >> * Yep, one main concern is his connection between Smalltalk advocacy >> and discrediting other languages – or making dogmatic, condescending >> and un-empirical statements of strong typing over weak typing, or >> class-based over prototype-based OO etc. Just separate that clearly. JS >> has huge momentum (IMHO absolutly justified), and it would be advisable >> to say something like "Hey, you like JS? Then look at ST, it is similar >> but the 'original thing', more pure, and takes the basic concepts even >> further". >> >> * I have to correct myself concerning "wrong statements about ST": it >> is not so much, that he writes "wrong" things about Pharo, but it is >> more that R.K.Eng often uses old 1980ies marketing language (like "It >> is just objects all the way down!"). That was nice back then, a >> completely new way of thinking, but today, a whole bunch of languages >> has sprung up from this legacy (dynamic, OO, introspection etc.), among >> them JS, and have taken the concepts to new forms. His superficial >> knowledge combined with the over-confident and condescending attitude >> scares away interested people. The quote I mentioned ("just object all >> the way down") was one of the blog topics the managers, to whom I tried >> to advertise Pharo, found ridiculous and laughed at it ("does it work >> by magic then? What are the primitives and basic value types then?" >> etc). >> >> * Pushing ones own projects is fine, again. But all his publicity >> effort have a strong taste (maybe it is cultural), that he wants >> control public perception of the community (and thus steering it). >> Being "Mr. Smalltalk" is extremly presumptive, in German it would >> usually refer to an official spokesperson (I think actually, for native >> English speakers, too...). And if I remember correctly, he did not get >> a warm welcome, true, but before that, he showed up without any >> Smalltalk background and just proclaimed himself the new >> project/marketing manager, without ever asking, what the community >> actually needs and what the current state is. >> >> * The top search results in Google are a major concern for every FOSS >> project... >> >> * If a person constantly and loudly points out that he is "altruistic", >> and that his self-initiated work (unasked, and reasonably rejected in >> part) would be worth a lot of money, than this is the opposite of >> altruistic... Again, maybe a cultural thing. >> >> But yes, I like to see becoming this a success story. >> Thank you! M >> >> >> >> Am Fr, 1. Mär, 2019 um 6:15 NACHMITTAGS schrieb Ben Coman >> < > >> btc@ > >> >: >>> Hi Michael, >>> >>> Thanks for your thoughtful followup. >>> >>> On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 at 19:59, Michael Zeder < > >> post@ > >> > >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I have carefully thought about, if I should really go publicly >>>> against one person within the community, and to start this "tirade", >>>> including the possibility that this causes an escalation, of course >>>> you cannot/must not silence a person ("Streisand" effect, did not >>>> know the term, but very fitting). But I decided that this kind of >>>> public conflicts is what is needed (and will make the community look >>>> better, not worse), _if_ a certain point is reached. >>> >>> I certainly subscribe to the tenet "Community standards do not >>> maintain themselves: They're maintained by people actively applying >>> them, visibly, in public." [1] >>> And I understand the tension in deciding to do so, with the >>> accompanying risk of making things worse (been there myself) >>> For me what weakened your first post was the name calling and sense >>> you were coming from a position of hurt with a story you needed to >>> justify by "making him wrong". :) >>> Much better second time round. >>> >>> [1] http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#not_losing >>> >>> >>>> I stand by it, but have reconsidered some points: >>>> * I do (did) not call for _immediate_ exclusion, but an >>>> "admonishment" that if certain behaviour is not about to change >>>> fundamentally, the community will have to act (by publicly >>>> separating this individual out). >>>> * Take older articles down, which start flamewars against other >>>> languages, or more precise: separate them from Smalltalk advocacy! >>>> If he wants to flame JS (for its various birth defects), fine, but >>>> don't connect that with pro-Smalltalk articles, for example. >>> >>> That seems a reasonable position and a good way to frame it. >>> >>> >>>> * Community efforts shall follow follow some community consensus. >>>> Core developers are no dictators, of course, but they are the ones >>>> knowing, what the state of the project is, and where _their_ work >>>> will lead to. Constantly ignoring this common guidance is >>>> detrimental to the community. So either, learn Smalltalk core coding >>>> and challenge the leadership, or do accept that there is some common >>>> agenda (and there are lots of open tasks: writing tutorials, >>>> documentation, make old scientific research available, linking and >>>> connecting showcases). >>> >>> His earlier articles got hammered and its natural that created a >>> defensive position for him to disconnect from the community >>> leadership. >>> The trick as for everyone is to not carry those forever and try >>> starting anew. >>> >>> >>>> * Public opinion does matter. The fact I mentioned Google SEO was >>>> indeed the starting point for me, to get into or start this flame >>>> war. Here is my story: >>>> Two of my clients (medium-sized enterprises) are classical C++/C# >>>> Windows development companies. I advertised Pharo to them for an >>>> _internal_ tool (their commerical products won't change to Smalltalk >>>> of course, but for their own internal dev tasks, Pharo whould have >>>> been a nice fit). When the managers got back to me, they had googled >>>> it, and told me, this thing sounds very dubious ("unseriös"). I >>>> enquired, what they had read, and they told me, this "spokesperson" >>>> (sic!!!) sounds like a trolling script kid, and they can't employ >>>> something which is developed (sic!!!) by such people. After some >>>> explanation, I managed to convince them, that this person is just a >>>> lonely person, who showed up out of nowhere, is not involved in the >>>> actual work, and just produces himself on the internet. But too >>>> late, their impression on Smalltalk was already formed by R.K.Engs >>>> "blogs" (in the meantime, they rank on top in Google search result). >>> >>> You should have led with that !!!! An experience has a lot more >>> power than an opinion. >>> >>> >>>> When I did some research of my own yesterday, and saw again, that >>>> R.K. Engs dubious blog entries were listed on top, I decided to take >>>> action. >>>> >>>> >>>> I like to answer to your balanced and thoughtful responses: >>>> >>>>> You may disagree about *how* he does such work, the actual content, >>>>> for sure, but that's a feedback better directed to mr. Eng himself. >>>> >>>> R.K. Eng has made it clear in the past many many times in uncertain >>>> wording, that he is not willing to follow community advice in these >>>> matters, if his gut is telling him something different... >>>> >>> >>> Some of that community advice has been delivered fairly >>> confrontation-ally and not really conducive to having someone listen. >>> >>>>> Hopefully I've expressed a balanced enough position that this >>>>> doesn't draw too many responses. >>>>> >>>> yes, you did. thank you. >>>> >>>> >>>>>> I agree "Mr Smalltalk" is quite a presumptive title, but really >>>>>> anyone following the mail lists soon gets an idea of who are the >>>>>> community merit leaders. >>>> >>>> Well, I disagree, based on the experience, I have written down >>>> above. The internet is very much about who is in the center of the >>>> focus (SEO/social media). Anybody new to Smalltalk will at first >>>> glance identify our community with this "spokesperson" (as I have >>>> experienced with two people, last year already btw) >>> >>> Point taken. >>> >>> >>>> Maybe it is a language thing, but "Mr. Smalltalk" is _extremely_ >>>> presumptive (in German, it means the embodiment of the denoted >>>> thing). If a person is not doing very very thorough reading of ages >>>> old mail list discussions or is researching, that this person in >>>> fact never committed any code to the repos, then any newcomer will >>>> think, this "Mr. Smalltalk" is at least a versed and informed >>>> Smalltalk developer (which, given his newbie questions he is >>>> absolutely not). >>> >>> Got it. So apart from fighting directly against his presumption to >>> the title (which seems difficult) >>> would cleaning some other-language-denigration from old articles go >>> some way towards mitigating your concern? >>> >>>>>> You are right he hasn't committed any code, but I've not actually >>>>>> seen him claim credit for any code in Pharo, so this point seems >>>>>> off. >>>> true. but as I just wrote, that is what people presume, given his >>>> way and manner of producing himself. If he wrote honestly wrote "I >>>> am a fanboy, supporter and advocate of Smalltalk...", great! But he >>>> claims he worked many many hours without a dime, but worth many >>>> dollars, and had "tremendous success" in creating a new Smalltalk >>>> wave. >>> >>> I'm pretty by many-hours-without-a dime he meant his evangelism. >>> If it didn't come across like that, that is probably specific >>> copy-edit feedback that would be useful to him. >>> >>>>>>> * ...is doing SEO to make Google show his own results before FOSS >>>>>>> community or sciences pages. >>>>>> I think its equally likely that most in our community are too busy >>>>>> coding to try getting articles ranked, >>>>>> so its more lack of effort by most of us. Most of his articles >>>>>> mention Pharo so people end up finding us anyway. >>>> might be true (some criticism to the community agenda..? different >>>> topic) >>>> The thing is, the wrong information are getting more and more in the >>>> focus of the internet, pushing aside the community-driven Pharo >>>> sites (or real scientific papers or well-done tutorials). >>> >>> I've read most of his articles. I don't think he gets much factually >>> wrong about Pharo (and has corrected those when pointed out). >>> It seems your main concern about wrong information is attacks on >>> other languages, which is fair. >>> >>> >>>>>> Any money he gets for his writing is not anything that concerns me >>>>>> personally. Those articles are his own effort. >>>> >>>> Sorry, misunderstanding! Of course, he may earn with his writing, >>>> whatever he gets for it. >>>> I was referring to the "up-coming" Smalltalk Coding Competition. >>> >>> btw, a few weeks ago when Richard asked for help to program the >>> competition, I volunteered. >>> I've criticized some of his articles, and maybe there are other >>> "better" the money could be spent, >>> but I admire he has stuck to his vision and think its a big thing he >>> has taken on. >>> If its going to happen anyway, for me its better to help make it a >>> success than a flop. >>> [Sidebar: I haven't managed to do much on it yet since I'm run ragged >>> on a personal development course until mid-April >>> that includes running a community project of my own... >>> https://www.nanpopcode.fun/] >>> >>> >>>> Now, yes, that money doesn't go into his own pockets (would be >>>> criminal fraud), but the thing is, he controls this money. >>>> Who will be the judges? Who will set parameters for the competition? >>>> Transparency? >>>> What is the benefit that goes back into the community? Now, it is >>>> fine, that he is pushing for things like that, but again, he is >>>> doing it without synchronising this effort with what is needed by >>>> the community. >>> >>> He got a reasonable number of supporters on GoFundMe (I wasn't one at >>> the time), >>> and I believe the majority of the money comes from a few companies >>> so I expect its really their opinion that counts about how their >>> money is spent. >>> >>> >>>>>>> * ...denies community leadership by merit (Pharo core developers >>>>>>> do know, what they have created and where they want to go in the >>>>>>> future, >>>>>> I don't see him claiming leadership of our community or trying to >>>>>> set our agenda. >>>>>> He just didn't let community criticism of his writing slow him >>>>>> down. >>>>>> All I observed is that several people bit him and he bit back - >>>>>> fairly usual sort of poor communication on both sides (including >>>>>> me). >>>> >>>> Well, as written above, the manner of his web appearance is >>>> implicitly a claim of community leadership. Not an exclusive one of >>>> course, but he wants to be perceived of one of the most important >>>> persons in the community (he told so many times, explicitly). And >>>> given my experience, read above, this had already a (negative) >>>> success with it. >>>> And I think he is setting agenda: "Make Smalltalk great/mainstream >>>> again" is the baseline, and that is something, only the core dev >>>> team and the community as a whole can decide/make happen (I love >>>> Smalltalk, but he promises wrong things, so if, just for example, >>>> C++/Qt devs or _modern_ JS devs have a first look at Smalltalk with >>>> the expectation they could already do the same thing as in their >>>> usual platforms, they will be disappointed --> synchronize a >>>> marketing agenda with what this great project currently is about, >>>> but he is not willing to cooperate with the core dev team) >>> >>> Fair enough. Since in a couple of months I'll be helping him out, >>> I'll have an opportunity to raise these concerns with him. >>> >>>>>> Him swearing about a group of Pharo people is good ammunition to >>>>>> bring to the mail list to support your point, >>>>>> but I also see he was rather provoked. Overall I feel this >>>>>> extract was better left in that small corner of the internet >>>>>> rather than fan flames here. >>>> >>>> :) Yeah... no! I think this is really a central point (so I put him >>>> in the pillory here with intent). There is something called >>>> community/FOSS ethics and structures. >>>> He does not show _respect_ towards those people, who did the work, >>>> but produces himself, and pushes for things, which the people who >>>> devoted their work to this project, told him that it is >>>> counter-productive. That is, in the long-run, a very dangerous >>>> situation. >>> >>> I agree, its not great. But he didn't get a warm welcome and some of >>> his early interactions were abrasive. >>> Considering two extremes, you can either be inclusive and hopefully >>> nurture/mold, or exclude and lose any chance at that. >>> Like a lot of things, the path is somewhere in the middle and needs a >>> bit of give and take on both sides. >>> >>>>>>> PS: a side note on Javascript (with lower S). wether you love or >>>>>>> hate this quirky lovechild of Lisp and Self/Smalltalk, telling JS >>>>>>> developers they are stupid and that they should abandon powerful >>>>>>> Vue.js, for example, in favor of Amber Smalltalk [cudos to Amber >>>>>>> devs! great thing!]) is utterly stupid! >>>>>> Agree. But banning everyone in the world for similar stupidity >>>>>> would leave the internet awfully quiet. >>>> Sure! Again: I am against silencing or banning anybody (and how >>>> could you). But if this becomes unbearable, there needs to be a >>>> public separation, so he does not drag the project down. People need >>>> to speak up against such usurpation. >>> >>> I appreciate the stand your are taking for the community. >>> I've gained from your share of your workplace experience. >>> >>>>>>> (which in the end are only a self-serving, ego-centric, >>>>>>> attention-greedy campaign to promote "Mr. Smalltalk" himself, a >>>>>>> total newbie, who claims credit for the work of others). >>>>>> Your repeated "claims credit for the work of others" is quite >>>>>> provocative and I haven't noticed this in his writings. Could you >>>>>> provide a link? >>>> >>>> See above, maybe it is a cultural thing, but as I told in my >>>> experience, all of his appearance screams for being recognized as >>>> one of the most important persons in the community (he is >>>> condescendingly mocking marketing efforts of the last 40 years, >>>> claims that he is the one who will "make smalltalk great again"...) >>>> >>>> Yes I am provocative this time, not my normal style (and I admit, I >>>> was tripped-out by his provocative blog title "Even people who >>>> understand prototypal programming do not like it – an inconvienent >>>> truth"; that is dripping off arrogance and ignorance... And sheds a >>>> bad light on Smalltalk, with which he wants to be identified in the >>>> web) >>> >>> Got it. >>> Let me ask to park this thread for the moment, because it can be >>> quite distracting if everyone chips in an opinion. >>> I think you've made some fair points and I'll put myself on the line >>> to discuss them with Richard when I start helping him with his >>> competition project. >>> >>> cheers -ben > > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html