How about we just move on? I don’t see much usefulness in arguing over older
stuff - I’m sure you/we/them will have different opinions on levels of
incorrectness - honestly it’s not worth it.
I think you’ve defended your corner fine , but I would much prefer that
everyone focuses on the merits of their respective languages/approaches - I’m
more interested seeing energy invested in the next cool things in all
languages. I’m also keen for us also finishing off the bits we still in
progress. And I hope we can constructively share ideas ...
Sent from my iPhone
> On 10 Apr 2019, at 19:25, horrido <horrido.hobb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Just to prove that I'm a very reasonable person, I make this unconditional
> offer...
>
> If Michael can identify which of my JavaScript and Python articles are in
> error and point out the specific falsehoods, I will correct them. I presume
> that not ALL of my criticisms are unjustified.
>
> This should assuage any concerns that JavaScript and Python developers who
> read my articles are mislead and think I don't know what I'm talking about.
> I trust this will prevent Smalltalk (and Pharo) from being placed in a bad
> light.
>
> See? I can be very accommodating. I look forward to the suggested
> amendments.
>
>
>
> horrido wrote
>> BTW, I've also said many unkind things about Python. And C++. And Scala
>> and
>> Swift. But I'm being criticized for what I've said about JavaScript?
>> Really???
>>
>> There is certainly no hint of bias here.
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael J. Zeder wrote
>>> Hey Ben,
>>>
>>> I leave it with this answer, as you suggested, thank you for picking up
>>> the ball!
>>> First, I admit again, I have thought about it one whole day, if and how
>>> I should do this "intervention", which is absolutly not my usual style,
>>> but I decided for myself, to be intentionally blunt, provocative, and
>>> parade his virtual presence around here in front of all Pharo users...
>>> In the hope that this kicks off something and, of course, that it will
>>> not be the final word.
>>>
>>> I tried to avoid being seen as the hurt one (seems, that I did not
>>> quite succeed with this). Javascript is most popular, so R.K. Eng
>>> cannot damage this platform with his – let's say... – "opinions",
>>> but he can damage Smalltalk and its small community. So I started with
>>> making noise, not with the story from my client's managers, who
>>> dismissed Pharo, because of his highly ranked Google search results –
>>> last year (But in fact, I was annoyed two days ago, I was googling
>>> actually a very specific topic about compiler optimization in
>>> prototype-based OO, and R.K. Engs ill-informed superficial "lecturing"
>>> rants showed up again at third or fourth place, I think, sigh).
>>>
>>> Short answers to your questions:
>>>
>>> * Yep, one main concern is his connection between Smalltalk advocacy
>>> and discrediting other languages – or making dogmatic, condescending
>>> and un-empirical statements of strong typing over weak typing, or
>>> class-based over prototype-based OO etc. Just separate that clearly. JS
>>> has huge momentum (IMHO absolutly justified), and it would be advisable
>>> to say something like "Hey, you like JS? Then look at ST, it is similar
>>> but the 'original thing', more pure, and takes the basic concepts even
>>> further".
>>>
>>> * I have to correct myself concerning "wrong statements about ST": it
>>> is not so much, that he writes "wrong" things about Pharo, but it is
>>> more that R.K.Eng often uses old 1980ies marketing language (like "It
>>> is just objects all the way down!"). That was nice back then, a
>>> completely new way of thinking, but today, a whole bunch of languages
>>> has sprung up from this legacy (dynamic, OO, introspection etc.), among
>>> them JS, and have taken the concepts to new forms. His superficial
>>> knowledge combined with the over-confident and condescending attitude
>>> scares away interested people. The quote I mentioned ("just object all
>>> the way down") was one of the blog topics the managers, to whom I tried
>>> to advertise Pharo, found ridiculous and laughed at it ("does it work
>>> by magic then? What are the primitives and basic value types then?"
>>> etc).
>>>
>>> * Pushing ones own projects is fine, again. But all his publicity
>>> effort have a strong taste (maybe it is cultural), that he wants
>>> control public perception of the community (and thus steering it).
>>> Being "Mr. Smalltalk" is extremly presumptive, in German it would
>>> usually refer to an official spokesperson (I think actually, for native
>>> English speakers, too...). And if I remember correctly, he did not get
>>> a warm welcome, true, but before that, he showed up without any
>>> Smalltalk background and just proclaimed himself the new
>>> project/marketing manager, without ever asking, what the community
>>> actually needs and what the current state is.
>>>
>>> * The top search results in Google are a major concern for every FOSS
>>> project...
>>>
>>> * If a person constantly and loudly points out that he is "altruistic",
>>> and that his self-initiated work (unasked, and reasonably rejected in
>>> part) would be worth a lot of money, than this is the opposite of
>>> altruistic... Again, maybe a cultural thing.
>>>
>>> But yes, I like to see becoming this a success story.
>>> Thank you! M
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Am Fr, 1. Mär, 2019 um 6:15 NACHMITTAGS schrieb Ben Coman
>>> <
>>
>>> btc@
>>
>>> >:
>>>> Hi Michael,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your thoughtful followup.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 at 19:59, Michael Zeder <
>>
>>> post@
>>
>>> >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I have carefully thought about, if I should really go publicly
>>>>> against one person within the community, and to start this "tirade",
>>>>> including the possibility that this causes an escalation, of course
>>>>> you cannot/must not silence a person ("Streisand" effect, did not
>>>>> know the term, but very fitting). But I decided that this kind of
>>>>> public conflicts is what is needed (and will make the community look
>>>>> better, not worse), _if_ a certain point is reached.
>>>>
>>>> I certainly subscribe to the tenet "Community standards do not
>>>> maintain themselves: They're maintained by people actively applying
>>>> them, visibly, in public." [1]
>>>> And I understand the tension in deciding to do so, with the
>>>> accompanying risk of making things worse (been there myself)
>>>> For me what weakened your first post was the name calling and sense
>>>> you were coming from a position of hurt with a story you needed to
>>>> justify by "making him wrong". :)
>>>> Much better second time round.
>>>>
>>>> [1] http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#not_losing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I stand by it, but have reconsidered some points:
>>>>> * I do (did) not call for _immediate_ exclusion, but an
>>>>> "admonishment" that if certain behaviour is not about to change
>>>>> fundamentally, the community will have to act (by publicly
>>>>> separating this individual out).
>>>>> * Take older articles down, which start flamewars against other
>>>>> languages, or more precise: separate them from Smalltalk advocacy!
>>>>> If he wants to flame JS (for its various birth defects), fine, but
>>>>> don't connect that with pro-Smalltalk articles, for example.
>>>>
>>>> That seems a reasonable position and a good way to frame it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> * Community efforts shall follow follow some community consensus.
>>>>> Core developers are no dictators, of course, but they are the ones
>>>>> knowing, what the state of the project is, and where _their_ work
>>>>> will lead to. Constantly ignoring this common guidance is
>>>>> detrimental to the community. So either, learn Smalltalk core coding
>>>>> and challenge the leadership, or do accept that there is some common
>>>>> agenda (and there are lots of open tasks: writing tutorials,
>>>>> documentation, make old scientific research available, linking and
>>>>> connecting showcases).
>>>>
>>>> His earlier articles got hammered and its natural that created a
>>>> defensive position for him to disconnect from the community
>>>> leadership.
>>>> The trick as for everyone is to not carry those forever and try
>>>> starting anew.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> * Public opinion does matter. The fact I mentioned Google SEO was
>>>>> indeed the starting point for me, to get into or start this flame
>>>>> war. Here is my story:
>>>>> Two of my clients (medium-sized enterprises) are classical C++/C#
>>>>> Windows development companies. I advertised Pharo to them for an
>>>>> _internal_ tool (their commerical products won't change to Smalltalk
>>>>> of course, but for their own internal dev tasks, Pharo whould have
>>>>> been a nice fit). When the managers got back to me, they had googled
>>>>> it, and told me, this thing sounds very dubious ("unseriös"). I
>>>>> enquired, what they had read, and they told me, this "spokesperson"
>>>>> (sic!!!) sounds like a trolling script kid, and they can't employ
>>>>> something which is developed (sic!!!) by such people. After some
>>>>> explanation, I managed to convince them, that this person is just a
>>>>> lonely person, who showed up out of nowhere, is not involved in the
>>>>> actual work, and just produces himself on the internet. But too
>>>>> late, their impression on Smalltalk was already formed by R.K.Engs
>>>>> "blogs" (in the meantime, they rank on top in Google search result).
>>>>
>>>> You should have led with that !!!! An experience has a lot more
>>>> power than an opinion.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> When I did some research of my own yesterday, and saw again, that
>>>>> R.K. Engs dubious blog entries were listed on top, I decided to take
>>>>> action.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I like to answer to your balanced and thoughtful responses:
>>>>>
>>>>>> You may disagree about *how* he does such work, the actual content,
>>>>>> for sure, but that's a feedback better directed to mr. Eng himself.
>>>>>
>>>>> R.K. Eng has made it clear in the past many many times in uncertain
>>>>> wording, that he is not willing to follow community advice in these
>>>>> matters, if his gut is telling him something different...
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Some of that community advice has been delivered fairly
>>>> confrontation-ally and not really conducive to having someone listen.
>>>>
>>>>>> Hopefully I've expressed a balanced enough position that this
>>>>>> doesn't draw too many responses.
>>>>>>
>>>>> yes, you did. thank you.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree "Mr Smalltalk" is quite a presumptive title, but really
>>>>>>> anyone following the mail lists soon gets an idea of who are the
>>>>>>> community merit leaders.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, I disagree, based on the experience, I have written down
>>>>> above. The internet is very much about who is in the center of the
>>>>> focus (SEO/social media). Anybody new to Smalltalk will at first
>>>>> glance identify our community with this "spokesperson" (as I have
>>>>> experienced with two people, last year already btw)
>>>>
>>>> Point taken.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Maybe it is a language thing, but "Mr. Smalltalk" is _extremely_
>>>>> presumptive (in German, it means the embodiment of the denoted
>>>>> thing). If a person is not doing very very thorough reading of ages
>>>>> old mail list discussions or is researching, that this person in
>>>>> fact never committed any code to the repos, then any newcomer will
>>>>> think, this "Mr. Smalltalk" is at least a versed and informed
>>>>> Smalltalk developer (which, given his newbie questions he is
>>>>> absolutely not).
>>>>
>>>> Got it. So apart from fighting directly against his presumption to
>>>> the title (which seems difficult)
>>>> would cleaning some other-language-denigration from old articles go
>>>> some way towards mitigating your concern?
>>>>
>>>>>>> You are right he hasn't committed any code, but I've not actually
>>>>>>> seen him claim credit for any code in Pharo, so this point seems
>>>>>>> off.
>>>>> true. but as I just wrote, that is what people presume, given his
>>>>> way and manner of producing himself. If he wrote honestly wrote "I
>>>>> am a fanboy, supporter and advocate of Smalltalk...", great! But he
>>>>> claims he worked many many hours without a dime, but worth many
>>>>> dollars, and had "tremendous success" in creating a new Smalltalk
>>>>> wave.
>>>>
>>>> I'm pretty by many-hours-without-a dime he meant his evangelism.
>>>> If it didn't come across like that, that is probably specific
>>>> copy-edit feedback that would be useful to him.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> * ...is doing SEO to make Google show his own results before FOSS
>>>>>>>> community or sciences pages.
>>>>>>> I think its equally likely that most in our community are too busy
>>>>>>> coding to try getting articles ranked,
>>>>>>> so its more lack of effort by most of us. Most of his articles
>>>>>>> mention Pharo so people end up finding us anyway.
>>>>> might be true (some criticism to the community agenda..? different
>>>>> topic)
>>>>> The thing is, the wrong information are getting more and more in the
>>>>> focus of the internet, pushing aside the community-driven Pharo
>>>>> sites (or real scientific papers or well-done tutorials).
>>>>
>>>> I've read most of his articles. I don't think he gets much factually
>>>> wrong about Pharo (and has corrected those when pointed out).
>>>> It seems your main concern about wrong information is attacks on
>>>> other languages, which is fair.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> Any money he gets for his writing is not anything that concerns me
>>>>>>> personally. Those articles are his own effort.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, misunderstanding! Of course, he may earn with his writing,
>>>>> whatever he gets for it.
>>>>> I was referring to the "up-coming" Smalltalk Coding Competition.
>>>>
>>>> btw, a few weeks ago when Richard asked for help to program the
>>>> competition, I volunteered.
>>>> I've criticized some of his articles, and maybe there are other
>>>> "better" the money could be spent,
>>>> but I admire he has stuck to his vision and think its a big thing he
>>>> has taken on.
>>>> If its going to happen anyway, for me its better to help make it a
>>>> success than a flop.
>>>> [Sidebar: I haven't managed to do much on it yet since I'm run ragged
>>>> on a personal development course until mid-April
>>>> that includes running a community project of my own...
>>>> https://www.nanpopcode.fun/]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Now, yes, that money doesn't go into his own pockets (would be
>>>>> criminal fraud), but the thing is, he controls this money.
>>>>> Who will be the judges? Who will set parameters for the competition?
>>>>> Transparency?
>>>>> What is the benefit that goes back into the community? Now, it is
>>>>> fine, that he is pushing for things like that, but again, he is
>>>>> doing it without synchronising this effort with what is needed by
>>>>> the community.
>>>>
>>>> He got a reasonable number of supporters on GoFundMe (I wasn't one at
>>>> the time),
>>>> and I believe the majority of the money comes from a few companies
>>>> so I expect its really their opinion that counts about how their
>>>> money is spent.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>> * ...denies community leadership by merit (Pharo core developers
>>>>>>>> do know, what they have created and where they want to go in the
>>>>>>>> future,
>>>>>>> I don't see him claiming leadership of our community or trying to
>>>>>>> set our agenda.
>>>>>>> He just didn't let community criticism of his writing slow him
>>>>>>> down.
>>>>>>> All I observed is that several people bit him and he bit back -
>>>>>>> fairly usual sort of poor communication on both sides (including
>>>>>>> me).
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, as written above, the manner of his web appearance is
>>>>> implicitly a claim of community leadership. Not an exclusive one of
>>>>> course, but he wants to be perceived of one of the most important
>>>>> persons in the community (he told so many times, explicitly). And
>>>>> given my experience, read above, this had already a (negative)
>>>>> success with it.
>>>>> And I think he is setting agenda: "Make Smalltalk great/mainstream
>>>>> again" is the baseline, and that is something, only the core dev
>>>>> team and the community as a whole can decide/make happen (I love
>>>>> Smalltalk, but he promises wrong things, so if, just for example,
>>>>> C++/Qt devs or _modern_ JS devs have a first look at Smalltalk with
>>>>> the expectation they could already do the same thing as in their
>>>>> usual platforms, they will be disappointed --> synchronize a
>>>>> marketing agenda with what this great project currently is about,
>>>>> but he is not willing to cooperate with the core dev team)
>>>>
>>>> Fair enough. Since in a couple of months I'll be helping him out,
>>>> I'll have an opportunity to raise these concerns with him.
>>>>
>>>>>>> Him swearing about a group of Pharo people is good ammunition to
>>>>>>> bring to the mail list to support your point,
>>>>>>> but I also see he was rather provoked. Overall I feel this
>>>>>>> extract was better left in that small corner of the internet
>>>>>>> rather than fan flames here.
>>>>>
>>>>> :) Yeah... no! I think this is really a central point (so I put him
>>>>> in the pillory here with intent). There is something called
>>>>> community/FOSS ethics and structures.
>>>>> He does not show _respect_ towards those people, who did the work,
>>>>> but produces himself, and pushes for things, which the people who
>>>>> devoted their work to this project, told him that it is
>>>>> counter-productive. That is, in the long-run, a very dangerous
>>>>> situation.
>>>>
>>>> I agree, its not great. But he didn't get a warm welcome and some of
>>>> his early interactions were abrasive.
>>>> Considering two extremes, you can either be inclusive and hopefully
>>>> nurture/mold, or exclude and lose any chance at that.
>>>> Like a lot of things, the path is somewhere in the middle and needs a
>>>> bit of give and take on both sides.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> PS: a side note on Javascript (with lower S). wether you love or
>>>>>>>> hate this quirky lovechild of Lisp and Self/Smalltalk, telling JS
>>>>>>>> developers they are stupid and that they should abandon powerful
>>>>>>>> Vue.js, for example, in favor of Amber Smalltalk [cudos to Amber
>>>>>>>> devs! great thing!]) is utterly stupid!
>>>>>>> Agree. But banning everyone in the world for similar stupidity
>>>>>>> would leave the internet awfully quiet.
>>>>> Sure! Again: I am against silencing or banning anybody (and how
>>>>> could you). But if this becomes unbearable, there needs to be a
>>>>> public separation, so he does not drag the project down. People need
>>>>> to speak up against such usurpation.
>>>>
>>>> I appreciate the stand your are taking for the community.
>>>> I've gained from your share of your workplace experience.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> (which in the end are only a self-serving, ego-centric,
>>>>>>>> attention-greedy campaign to promote "Mr. Smalltalk" himself, a
>>>>>>>> total newbie, who claims credit for the work of others).
>>>>>>> Your repeated "claims credit for the work of others" is quite
>>>>>>> provocative and I haven't noticed this in his writings. Could you
>>>>>>> provide a link?
>>>>>
>>>>> See above, maybe it is a cultural thing, but as I told in my
>>>>> experience, all of his appearance screams for being recognized as
>>>>> one of the most important persons in the community (he is
>>>>> condescendingly mocking marketing efforts of the last 40 years,
>>>>> claims that he is the one who will "make smalltalk great again"...)
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes I am provocative this time, not my normal style (and I admit, I
>>>>> was tripped-out by his provocative blog title "Even people who
>>>>> understand prototypal programming do not like it – an inconvienent
>>>>> truth"; that is dripping off arrogance and ignorance... And sheds a
>>>>> bad light on Smalltalk, with which he wants to be identified in the
>>>>> web)
>>>>
>>>> Got it.
>>>> Let me ask to park this thread for the moment, because it can be
>>>> quite distracting if everyone chips in an opinion.
>>>> I think you've made some fair points and I'll put myself on the line
>>>> to discuss them with Richard when I start helping him with his
>>>> competition project.
>>>>
>>>> cheers -ben
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
>
