+1 /*—————————————————-*/ Sent from my iPhone https://boincstats.com/signature/-1/user/51616339056/sig.png See https://objectnets.net and https://objectnets.org
> On Apr 10, 2019, at 12:38, Tim Mackinnon <[email protected]> wrote: > > How about we just move on? I don’t see much usefulness in arguing over older > stuff - I’m sure you/we/them will have different opinions on levels of > incorrectness - honestly it’s not worth it. > > I think you’ve defended your corner fine , but I would much prefer that > everyone focuses on the merits of their respective languages/approaches - I’m > more interested seeing energy invested in the next cool things in all > languages. I’m also keen for us also finishing off the bits we still in > progress. And I hope we can constructively share ideas ... > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On 10 Apr 2019, at 19:25, horrido <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Just to prove that I'm a very reasonable person, I make this unconditional >> offer... >> >> If Michael can identify which of my JavaScript and Python articles are in >> error and point out the specific falsehoods, I will correct them. I presume >> that not ALL of my criticisms are unjustified. >> >> This should assuage any concerns that JavaScript and Python developers who >> read my articles are mislead and think I don't know what I'm talking about. >> I trust this will prevent Smalltalk (and Pharo) from being placed in a bad >> light. >> >> See? I can be very accommodating. I look forward to the suggested >> amendments. >> >> >> >> horrido wrote >>> BTW, I've also said many unkind things about Python. And C++. And Scala >>> and >>> Swift. But I'm being criticized for what I've said about JavaScript? >>> Really??? >>> >>> There is certainly no hint of bias here. >>> >>> >>> >>> Michael J. Zeder wrote >>>> Hey Ben, >>>> >>>> I leave it with this answer, as you suggested, thank you for picking up >>>> the ball! >>>> First, I admit again, I have thought about it one whole day, if and how >>>> I should do this "intervention", which is absolutly not my usual style, >>>> but I decided for myself, to be intentionally blunt, provocative, and >>>> parade his virtual presence around here in front of all Pharo users... >>>> In the hope that this kicks off something and, of course, that it will >>>> not be the final word. >>>> >>>> I tried to avoid being seen as the hurt one (seems, that I did not >>>> quite succeed with this). Javascript is most popular, so R.K. Eng >>>> cannot damage this platform with his – let's say... – "opinions", >>>> but he can damage Smalltalk and its small community. So I started with >>>> making noise, not with the story from my client's managers, who >>>> dismissed Pharo, because of his highly ranked Google search results – >>>> last year (But in fact, I was annoyed two days ago, I was googling >>>> actually a very specific topic about compiler optimization in >>>> prototype-based OO, and R.K. Engs ill-informed superficial "lecturing" >>>> rants showed up again at third or fourth place, I think, sigh). >>>> >>>> Short answers to your questions: >>>> >>>> * Yep, one main concern is his connection between Smalltalk advocacy >>>> and discrediting other languages – or making dogmatic, condescending >>>> and un-empirical statements of strong typing over weak typing, or >>>> class-based over prototype-based OO etc. Just separate that clearly. JS >>>> has huge momentum (IMHO absolutly justified), and it would be advisable >>>> to say something like "Hey, you like JS? Then look at ST, it is similar >>>> but the 'original thing', more pure, and takes the basic concepts even >>>> further". >>>> >>>> * I have to correct myself concerning "wrong statements about ST": it >>>> is not so much, that he writes "wrong" things about Pharo, but it is >>>> more that R.K.Eng often uses old 1980ies marketing language (like "It >>>> is just objects all the way down!"). That was nice back then, a >>>> completely new way of thinking, but today, a whole bunch of languages >>>> has sprung up from this legacy (dynamic, OO, introspection etc.), among >>>> them JS, and have taken the concepts to new forms. His superficial >>>> knowledge combined with the over-confident and condescending attitude >>>> scares away interested people. The quote I mentioned ("just object all >>>> the way down") was one of the blog topics the managers, to whom I tried >>>> to advertise Pharo, found ridiculous and laughed at it ("does it work >>>> by magic then? What are the primitives and basic value types then?" >>>> etc). >>>> >>>> * Pushing ones own projects is fine, again. But all his publicity >>>> effort have a strong taste (maybe it is cultural), that he wants >>>> control public perception of the community (and thus steering it). >>>> Being "Mr. Smalltalk" is extremly presumptive, in German it would >>>> usually refer to an official spokesperson (I think actually, for native >>>> English speakers, too...). And if I remember correctly, he did not get >>>> a warm welcome, true, but before that, he showed up without any >>>> Smalltalk background and just proclaimed himself the new >>>> project/marketing manager, without ever asking, what the community >>>> actually needs and what the current state is. >>>> >>>> * The top search results in Google are a major concern for every FOSS >>>> project... >>>> >>>> * If a person constantly and loudly points out that he is "altruistic", >>>> and that his self-initiated work (unasked, and reasonably rejected in >>>> part) would be worth a lot of money, than this is the opposite of >>>> altruistic... Again, maybe a cultural thing. >>>> >>>> But yes, I like to see becoming this a success story. >>>> Thank you! M >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Am Fr, 1. Mär, 2019 um 6:15 NACHMITTAGS schrieb Ben Coman >>>> < >>> >>>> btc@ >>> >>>> >: >>>>> Hi Michael, >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your thoughtful followup. >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 at 19:59, Michael Zeder < >>> >>>> post@ >>> >>>> > >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I have carefully thought about, if I should really go publicly >>>>>> against one person within the community, and to start this "tirade", >>>>>> including the possibility that this causes an escalation, of course >>>>>> you cannot/must not silence a person ("Streisand" effect, did not >>>>>> know the term, but very fitting). But I decided that this kind of >>>>>> public conflicts is what is needed (and will make the community look >>>>>> better, not worse), _if_ a certain point is reached. >>>>> >>>>> I certainly subscribe to the tenet "Community standards do not >>>>> maintain themselves: They're maintained by people actively applying >>>>> them, visibly, in public." [1] >>>>> And I understand the tension in deciding to do so, with the >>>>> accompanying risk of making things worse (been there myself) >>>>> For me what weakened your first post was the name calling and sense >>>>> you were coming from a position of hurt with a story you needed to >>>>> justify by "making him wrong". :) >>>>> Much better second time round. >>>>> >>>>> [1] http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#not_losing >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I stand by it, but have reconsidered some points: >>>>>> * I do (did) not call for _immediate_ exclusion, but an >>>>>> "admonishment" that if certain behaviour is not about to change >>>>>> fundamentally, the community will have to act (by publicly >>>>>> separating this individual out). >>>>>> * Take older articles down, which start flamewars against other >>>>>> languages, or more precise: separate them from Smalltalk advocacy! >>>>>> If he wants to flame JS (for its various birth defects), fine, but >>>>>> don't connect that with pro-Smalltalk articles, for example. >>>>> >>>>> That seems a reasonable position and a good way to frame it. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> * Community efforts shall follow follow some community consensus. >>>>>> Core developers are no dictators, of course, but they are the ones >>>>>> knowing, what the state of the project is, and where _their_ work >>>>>> will lead to. Constantly ignoring this common guidance is >>>>>> detrimental to the community. So either, learn Smalltalk core coding >>>>>> and challenge the leadership, or do accept that there is some common >>>>>> agenda (and there are lots of open tasks: writing tutorials, >>>>>> documentation, make old scientific research available, linking and >>>>>> connecting showcases). >>>>> >>>>> His earlier articles got hammered and its natural that created a >>>>> defensive position for him to disconnect from the community >>>>> leadership. >>>>> The trick as for everyone is to not carry those forever and try >>>>> starting anew. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> * Public opinion does matter. The fact I mentioned Google SEO was >>>>>> indeed the starting point for me, to get into or start this flame >>>>>> war. Here is my story: >>>>>> Two of my clients (medium-sized enterprises) are classical C++/C# >>>>>> Windows development companies. I advertised Pharo to them for an >>>>>> _internal_ tool (their commerical products won't change to Smalltalk >>>>>> of course, but for their own internal dev tasks, Pharo whould have >>>>>> been a nice fit). When the managers got back to me, they had googled >>>>>> it, and told me, this thing sounds very dubious ("unseriös"). I >>>>>> enquired, what they had read, and they told me, this "spokesperson" >>>>>> (sic!!!) sounds like a trolling script kid, and they can't employ >>>>>> something which is developed (sic!!!) by such people. After some >>>>>> explanation, I managed to convince them, that this person is just a >>>>>> lonely person, who showed up out of nowhere, is not involved in the >>>>>> actual work, and just produces himself on the internet. But too >>>>>> late, their impression on Smalltalk was already formed by R.K.Engs >>>>>> "blogs" (in the meantime, they rank on top in Google search result). >>>>> >>>>> You should have led with that !!!! An experience has a lot more >>>>> power than an opinion. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> When I did some research of my own yesterday, and saw again, that >>>>>> R.K. Engs dubious blog entries were listed on top, I decided to take >>>>>> action. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I like to answer to your balanced and thoughtful responses: >>>>>> >>>>>>> You may disagree about *how* he does such work, the actual content, >>>>>>> for sure, but that's a feedback better directed to mr. Eng himself. >>>>>> >>>>>> R.K. Eng has made it clear in the past many many times in uncertain >>>>>> wording, that he is not willing to follow community advice in these >>>>>> matters, if his gut is telling him something different... >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Some of that community advice has been delivered fairly >>>>> confrontation-ally and not really conducive to having someone listen. >>>>> >>>>>>> Hopefully I've expressed a balanced enough position that this >>>>>>> doesn't draw too many responses. >>>>>>> >>>>>> yes, you did. thank you. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> I agree "Mr Smalltalk" is quite a presumptive title, but really >>>>>>>> anyone following the mail lists soon gets an idea of who are the >>>>>>>> community merit leaders. >>>>>> >>>>>> Well, I disagree, based on the experience, I have written down >>>>>> above. The internet is very much about who is in the center of the >>>>>> focus (SEO/social media). Anybody new to Smalltalk will at first >>>>>> glance identify our community with this "spokesperson" (as I have >>>>>> experienced with two people, last year already btw) >>>>> >>>>> Point taken. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Maybe it is a language thing, but "Mr. Smalltalk" is _extremely_ >>>>>> presumptive (in German, it means the embodiment of the denoted >>>>>> thing). If a person is not doing very very thorough reading of ages >>>>>> old mail list discussions or is researching, that this person in >>>>>> fact never committed any code to the repos, then any newcomer will >>>>>> think, this "Mr. Smalltalk" is at least a versed and informed >>>>>> Smalltalk developer (which, given his newbie questions he is >>>>>> absolutely not). >>>>> >>>>> Got it. So apart from fighting directly against his presumption to >>>>> the title (which seems difficult) >>>>> would cleaning some other-language-denigration from old articles go >>>>> some way towards mitigating your concern? >>>>> >>>>>>>> You are right he hasn't committed any code, but I've not actually >>>>>>>> seen him claim credit for any code in Pharo, so this point seems >>>>>>>> off. >>>>>> true. but as I just wrote, that is what people presume, given his >>>>>> way and manner of producing himself. If he wrote honestly wrote "I >>>>>> am a fanboy, supporter and advocate of Smalltalk...", great! But he >>>>>> claims he worked many many hours without a dime, but worth many >>>>>> dollars, and had "tremendous success" in creating a new Smalltalk >>>>>> wave. >>>>> >>>>> I'm pretty by many-hours-without-a dime he meant his evangelism. >>>>> If it didn't come across like that, that is probably specific >>>>> copy-edit feedback that would be useful to him. >>>>> >>>>>>>>> * ...is doing SEO to make Google show his own results before FOSS >>>>>>>>> community or sciences pages. >>>>>>>> I think its equally likely that most in our community are too busy >>>>>>>> coding to try getting articles ranked, >>>>>>>> so its more lack of effort by most of us. Most of his articles >>>>>>>> mention Pharo so people end up finding us anyway. >>>>>> might be true (some criticism to the community agenda..? different >>>>>> topic) >>>>>> The thing is, the wrong information are getting more and more in the >>>>>> focus of the internet, pushing aside the community-driven Pharo >>>>>> sites (or real scientific papers or well-done tutorials). >>>>> >>>>> I've read most of his articles. I don't think he gets much factually >>>>> wrong about Pharo (and has corrected those when pointed out). >>>>> It seems your main concern about wrong information is attacks on >>>>> other languages, which is fair. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> Any money he gets for his writing is not anything that concerns me >>>>>>>> personally. Those articles are his own effort. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sorry, misunderstanding! Of course, he may earn with his writing, >>>>>> whatever he gets for it. >>>>>> I was referring to the "up-coming" Smalltalk Coding Competition. >>>>> >>>>> btw, a few weeks ago when Richard asked for help to program the >>>>> competition, I volunteered. >>>>> I've criticized some of his articles, and maybe there are other >>>>> "better" the money could be spent, >>>>> but I admire he has stuck to his vision and think its a big thing he >>>>> has taken on. >>>>> If its going to happen anyway, for me its better to help make it a >>>>> success than a flop. >>>>> [Sidebar: I haven't managed to do much on it yet since I'm run ragged >>>>> on a personal development course until mid-April >>>>> that includes running a community project of my own... >>>>> https://www.nanpopcode.fun/] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Now, yes, that money doesn't go into his own pockets (would be >>>>>> criminal fraud), but the thing is, he controls this money. >>>>>> Who will be the judges? Who will set parameters for the competition? >>>>>> Transparency? >>>>>> What is the benefit that goes back into the community? Now, it is >>>>>> fine, that he is pushing for things like that, but again, he is >>>>>> doing it without synchronising this effort with what is needed by >>>>>> the community. >>>>> >>>>> He got a reasonable number of supporters on GoFundMe (I wasn't one at >>>>> the time), >>>>> and I believe the majority of the money comes from a few companies >>>>> so I expect its really their opinion that counts about how their >>>>> money is spent. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> * ...denies community leadership by merit (Pharo core developers >>>>>>>>> do know, what they have created and where they want to go in the >>>>>>>>> future, >>>>>>>> I don't see him claiming leadership of our community or trying to >>>>>>>> set our agenda. >>>>>>>> He just didn't let community criticism of his writing slow him >>>>>>>> down. >>>>>>>> All I observed is that several people bit him and he bit back - >>>>>>>> fairly usual sort of poor communication on both sides (including >>>>>>>> me). >>>>>> >>>>>> Well, as written above, the manner of his web appearance is >>>>>> implicitly a claim of community leadership. Not an exclusive one of >>>>>> course, but he wants to be perceived of one of the most important >>>>>> persons in the community (he told so many times, explicitly). And >>>>>> given my experience, read above, this had already a (negative) >>>>>> success with it. >>>>>> And I think he is setting agenda: "Make Smalltalk great/mainstream >>>>>> again" is the baseline, and that is something, only the core dev >>>>>> team and the community as a whole can decide/make happen (I love >>>>>> Smalltalk, but he promises wrong things, so if, just for example, >>>>>> C++/Qt devs or _modern_ JS devs have a first look at Smalltalk with >>>>>> the expectation they could already do the same thing as in their >>>>>> usual platforms, they will be disappointed --> synchronize a >>>>>> marketing agenda with what this great project currently is about, >>>>>> but he is not willing to cooperate with the core dev team) >>>>> >>>>> Fair enough. Since in a couple of months I'll be helping him out, >>>>> I'll have an opportunity to raise these concerns with him. >>>>> >>>>>>>> Him swearing about a group of Pharo people is good ammunition to >>>>>>>> bring to the mail list to support your point, >>>>>>>> but I also see he was rather provoked. Overall I feel this >>>>>>>> extract was better left in that small corner of the internet >>>>>>>> rather than fan flames here. >>>>>> >>>>>> :) Yeah... no! I think this is really a central point (so I put him >>>>>> in the pillory here with intent). There is something called >>>>>> community/FOSS ethics and structures. >>>>>> He does not show _respect_ towards those people, who did the work, >>>>>> but produces himself, and pushes for things, which the people who >>>>>> devoted their work to this project, told him that it is >>>>>> counter-productive. That is, in the long-run, a very dangerous >>>>>> situation. >>>>> >>>>> I agree, its not great. But he didn't get a warm welcome and some of >>>>> his early interactions were abrasive. >>>>> Considering two extremes, you can either be inclusive and hopefully >>>>> nurture/mold, or exclude and lose any chance at that. >>>>> Like a lot of things, the path is somewhere in the middle and needs a >>>>> bit of give and take on both sides. >>>>> >>>>>>>>> PS: a side note on Javascript (with lower S). wether you love or >>>>>>>>> hate this quirky lovechild of Lisp and Self/Smalltalk, telling JS >>>>>>>>> developers they are stupid and that they should abandon powerful >>>>>>>>> Vue.js, for example, in favor of Amber Smalltalk [cudos to Amber >>>>>>>>> devs! great thing!]) is utterly stupid! >>>>>>>> Agree. But banning everyone in the world for similar stupidity >>>>>>>> would leave the internet awfully quiet. >>>>>> Sure! Again: I am against silencing or banning anybody (and how >>>>>> could you). But if this becomes unbearable, there needs to be a >>>>>> public separation, so he does not drag the project down. People need >>>>>> to speak up against such usurpation. >>>>> >>>>> I appreciate the stand your are taking for the community. >>>>> I've gained from your share of your workplace experience. >>>>> >>>>>>>>> (which in the end are only a self-serving, ego-centric, >>>>>>>>> attention-greedy campaign to promote "Mr. Smalltalk" himself, a >>>>>>>>> total newbie, who claims credit for the work of others). >>>>>>>> Your repeated "claims credit for the work of others" is quite >>>>>>>> provocative and I haven't noticed this in his writings. Could you >>>>>>>> provide a link? >>>>>> >>>>>> See above, maybe it is a cultural thing, but as I told in my >>>>>> experience, all of his appearance screams for being recognized as >>>>>> one of the most important persons in the community (he is >>>>>> condescendingly mocking marketing efforts of the last 40 years, >>>>>> claims that he is the one who will "make smalltalk great again"...) >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes I am provocative this time, not my normal style (and I admit, I >>>>>> was tripped-out by his provocative blog title "Even people who >>>>>> understand prototypal programming do not like it – an inconvienent >>>>>> truth"; that is dripping off arrogance and ignorance... And sheds a >>>>>> bad light on Smalltalk, with which he wants to be identified in the >>>>>> web) >>>>> >>>>> Got it. >>>>> Let me ask to park this thread for the moment, because it can be >>>>> quite distracting if everyone chips in an opinion. >>>>> I think you've made some fair points and I'll put myself on the line >>>>> to discuss them with Richard when I start helping him with his >>>>> competition project. >>>>> >>>>> cheers -ben >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> > >
