On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 15:50:15 +0800, Zak B. Elep <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > clair ching <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > Kutch: Supporting M$ piracy won't cut it =) We still have to give > > people options. > > Yes. However, when you look back, all this talk about piracy, > intellectual property and licenses, it becomes all petty, since it > somehow prevents us from working to the fullest, and having fun... > > >> Ricky: In what you previously said: > >> "I realized that this is anathema to many Linux users. You're supposed > >> to know gcc and bash in order to use Linux. > >> What is happening is that in teaching Linux here with these features > >> as necessary parts to understanding means that a good many non-sysad > >> types will be turned-off." > > I'd like to recall something I saw in one of the HOWTOs: Linux grows > with you. =) > > > I only started using Linux in August of last year. I don't know GCC > > and I just know a bit of BASH. It has been tough making time learning > > some things on the CLI. > > When I started, I was already familiar with gcc (as far as how to > compile software, like building Emacs on MSDOG/DJGPP) and bash (I had my > shell account by then, though I've yet to read bash(1).) However, even > if I hadn't seen those by the time I've installed woody, as long as > there's true motivation, there are no anathemas.
True =) Someone has to have the drive, the guts. > > > Previously there has been a flurry of messages concerning CLI and GUI > > (you could check the archives). I think that for people who have just > > been introduced to Linux, one way of encouraging them to learn to do > > things on the CLI is to show them how powerful it is =) There are a > > lot of nifty things that one can do on it. That way, they can be > > challenged to go beyond using the GUI. Sooner or later they will be > > comfortable with it ;) But there are other users who probably don't > > think they have to go beyond the GUI. Well, I guess it's ok for > > starters, as you never could force people into doing things =) > > Hehe! Well, it could be argued that Emacs is both a CLI and GUI, but > that's another spawn of a thread... Zak! <laughs> > > But seriously, I'd like to think that GUIs are GUIdes towards an > enlightened desktop metaphor. Alan Kay's forecast into the unknown > almost 5 decades ago may now be the norm, but with Moore's Law, we're > getting closer to the point where desktops are no longer `desktops' in > the usual sense. Other metaphors, ranging from tiled workspaces to > multidimensional environments are picking up steam, and maybe within the > next few years, we might be able to see better, more fantastic > ideas. > > But along that way, a CLI holds open ground... > > >> On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 22:34:15 +0800, Zak B. Elep <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Indeed. Another instance of popular choice severely constrained by the > >> lack of choice. And even when there are choices, most humans take the > >> easy path of ignoring open knowledge in preference to laziness and/or > >> ineptitude of FOSS given their current situation. > >> > > So I guess it's still a matter of perspective =) So we have to tell > > them the truth about FOSS so that they will be set free from their > > current mindset ;) > > And all we offer is the truth, nothing more... And nothing less either =) > > >> Same as the `diploma culture' most Filipinos adopt. Of course, by itself > >> it isn't a bad thing, but we tend to stick to a particular > >> side/brand/way even if we know its kinda wrong... > > > > Stikcing to a brand that people are "sure of", is the more appropriate > > statement, I think. > > Yes, that would be a better expression. > > > People won't buy a new brand unless it has been tried and tested and > > endorsed by so many others. Individual computer users may find it > > easier to adopt FOSS because they are the ones who will primarily be > > affected. In larger institutions and companies, they have more things > > to consider, as was said somewhere in this thread. So maybe sticking > > to a particular brand may not be inherently wrong... Just boxes > > people in =( > > That's true, and that's what I'm hinting wrt corps and orgs: the more > people involved, the more these bodies ought to study carefully their > current systems and find ways to improve it non-destructively. I'm just > hoping the top brass would be enough on such matters... I hope so too. They would have to consider their resources, the amount of time they need to transition, the people factor involved. :| I guess that it could be daunting but everything has to be factored in. > > I guess that that this is something that has to be done so that people > > won't be overwhelmed. I was overwhelmed myself when I got introduced > > to Linux and FOSS in general. But intro texts and other documents have > > helped me gain a bit more of understanding =) That is why I am > > advocating the use of FOSS right now ;) > > So we need exposure and documentation that is (a) as open as FOSS, (b) > accessible to both the educationally- and financially-challenged, and > (c) be able to meet both the needs of noobs and leets halfway (but not > half-and-half, as that would be half-baked.) > True. > Anyone with the 3 T's to spare on this? 3 T's ? > > > True. But people promoting FOSS also have a certain degree of > > responsibility in how they help the company transition into using > > FOSS, ne? =) > > Yep. When the company migrates, these people should be the ones depended > upon by the workforce in resolving the issues that crop up. Novell's > effort is a good example. > > > At least it's OOo ;) Who knows? Maybe the next time you drop by > > they'll be running on Linux :D > > I hope so when I get back to Manila soon; I'm back home safe and sound, > but I'll miss Sacha's talk on the 12th... *sigh* So when would you be back? ;) > > -- > ZAK B. ELEP <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -- <http://zakame.spunge.org> Maybe we could all start of planning an event that would make sure that we could advocate not only Linux but FOSS =) -- Clair Ching librarian, bookworm, information gatherer, anime fan, linux newbie http://clair.free.net.ph - blog about linux, emacs planner, tech and culture http://clair.pinoyweb.net - daily journal, stories, miscellany -- Philippine Linux Users' Group (PLUG) Mailing List [email protected] (#PLUG @ irc.free.net.ph) Official Website: http://plug.linux.org.ph Searchable Archives: http://marc.free.net.ph . To leave, go to http://lists.q-linux.com/mailman/listinfo/plug . Are you a Linux newbie? To join the newbie list, go to http://lists.q-linux.com/mailman/listinfo/ph-linux-newbie
