Mike read some Iranian history... You will find that it was the Shah who kicked out Soviet and British influence after 100 years of domination there, and was the official head of state... It was his Prime Minister who had lost the support of the Iranian Parliament, and with Soviet backing, who trying to overthrow the Shah... You might learn about who started land reform in Iran... Further you focus on the Shah's torture and oppression while ignoring the 30 years following the SHah od mullah torture and oppression...
On Oct 4, 1:38 am,. "mike532 [ Republicans for Obama ]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > yup just like Iran thanked us for inflicting over twenty years of > torture and terror on them by installing and supporting the Shaw ! > > On Oct 3, 5:30 pm, Hollywood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > jgg, > > > When did the U.S become everyone's control-freak mother? > > > Oh they won't do it RIGHT, I just better do this myself for their own > > good. Once they realize I'm always right, they will thank me for it. > > > On Oct 3, 1:31 pm, jgg1000a <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > The UN is dysfunctional concerning issues like Iraq, Iran, Sudan, or > > > Georgia... Your position is one whose consequence was NOTHING WAS TO > > > BE DONE while Sanctions were removed AND Saddam rebuilt his WMD > > > stockpiles... That is what you and Obama refuse to accept -- the > > > cold hard reality of what would have happened without Saddam's > > > removal... > > > > On Oct 2, 4:26 pm, Hollywood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > jgg, > > > > > Why was it America's problem in the 1st place? Sounds like a regional, > > > > or at most a U.N. problem. > > > > > On Oct 2, 3:08 pm, jgg1000a <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > If one accepts your premise, the question then is what does one do > > > > > with Saddam's Iraq... > > > > > > 1) Sanctions were on the verge of failing, in part due to the > > > > > corruption in the UN's oil for food program and in part due to France, > > > > > Russian, and German willingness to ignore the sanctions... We did > > > > > find out that Saddam had full intention to rebuild stockpile of WMD > > > > > once sanctions ended... > > > > > > 2) we never would have discovered the Pakistan trade in WMD > > > > > technology, > > > > > > 3) Iraq nor the entire would have had no reform towards democracy > > > > > > What to do about the nexus of failing states (yes Iraq was one) > > > > > stateless terrorism, and cheap WMD??? All these question, if one > > > > > accepts the premise of keeping Saddam in power, would have insured > > > > > greater problems... > > > > > > On Oct 2, 12:19 am, J <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > My claim, even before the Iraq War, was that the Iraq War is a > > > > > > mistake. > > > > > > > Obama has the best judgment to bring to our Congress for vote > > > > > > battles > > > > > > which the American people must fight. > > > > > > > McCain is a reckless impetuous too old hot-head, last in his class, > > > > > > a > > > > > > George Armstrong Custer type, who , mark my words if he's elected > > > > > > president, will cause our nation to go down in flames. > > > > > > > On Sep 29, 1:58 pm, jgg1000a <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Public opinion is a fickle thing... Your claim is Iraq and > > > > > > > Afghanistan were never merely separate battlefields in the same > > > > > > > war... That is simplely false... > > > > > > > > On Sep 29, 12:58 pm, J <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > jgg1000a, Iraq was a mistake. Most of the American people > > > > > > > > realize > > > > > > > > this, even many Republicans. > > > > > > > > > The electorate can not take the chance that your party and its > > > > > > > > representatives will not make the same monumental mistakes in > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > future. It's time for real change. > > > > > > > > > On Sep 29, 9:49 am, jgg1000a <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >>> George Bush and his neocon buddies created al Qaeda in > > > > > > > > > >>> Iraq by destabilizing the country, > > > > > > > > > > Bush attacked the nexus of failing nation-states, stateless > > > > > > > > > terrorism, > > > > > > > > > and WMD... That AQ was or was not in Iraq in 2001 is not the > > > > > > > > > point... THE POINT IS AQ DID COME TO IRAQ AND MADE IT ITS > > > > > > > > > CENTRAL > > > > > > > > > FRONT... Until you can understand this you have no clue... > > > > > > > > > The > > > > > > > > > second point you fail to understand is Iraq transformed AQ's > > > > > > > > > image in > > > > > > > > > the mOslem world from a "Freedom Fighter" to a non-religious > > > > > > > > > "death > > > > > > > > > cult"... > > > > > > > > > > As to Iran, it already was embolden... You assume the > > > > > > > > > removal of > > > > > > > > > Saddam was blocking Iran from going nuclear, it was not... > > > > > > > > > Iran > > > > > > > > > already had started to spread influence in the ME in the Shia > > > > > > > > > communities since the 1980's... > > > > > > > > > > On Sep 27, 4:19 pm, J <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > George Bush and his neocon buddies created al Qaeda in Iraq > > > > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > destabilizing the country, killing in the process 200,000 > > > > > > > > > > of its > > > > > > > > > > citizens and making 2 MILLION Iraqis homeless refugees. > > > > > > > > > > Obama warned > > > > > > > > > > of the consequences of a "dumb war" BEFORE the Iraq > > > > > > > > > > invasion. The > > > > > > > > > > Republicans diverted our precious blood and treasure on a > > > > > > > > > > fools > > > > > > > > > > mission to Iraq while the terrorists regrouped and grew > > > > > > > > > > stronger in > > > > > > > > > > Afghanistan and Pakistan. As Obama pointed out last night, > > > > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > unintended consequence of the Iraq War was to strengthen > > > > > > > > > > and embolden > > > > > > > > > > Iran. > > > > > > > > > > > It's time for you Republican apologists and your screw-up > > > > > > > > > > representatives to stand down and let the country be run by > > > > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > intelligent focused determined leader. > > > > > > > > > > > On Sep 27, 12:37 pm, jgg1000a <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Obama thinks the fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan are not > > > > > > > > > > > linked in > > > > > > > > > > > fundamental ways... He wants to believe that because AQ > > > > > > > > > > > did not much > > > > > > > > > > > of a presence in Iraq in 2001 that Iraq was not seen as > > > > > > > > > > > the central > > > > > > > > > > > battlefield by both the US and AQ... IT WAS SEEN AS THE > > > > > > > > > > > CENTRAL > > > > > > > > > > > BATTLEFIELD BY BOTH... In not understanding this > > > > > > > > > > > fundamental fact, > > > > > > > > > > > Obama's assumptions over the consequences of a pullout > > > > > > > > > > > (either today > > > > > > > > > > > or 2 years ago) are critically flawed and WRONG... > > > > > > > > > > > > It is about judgment Hollywood,, Not understanding what > > > > > > > > > > > the facts are > > > > > > > > > > > IS OBAMA'S basic lack of judgment... > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sep 27, 1:27 pm, Hollywood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > voxitar, > > > > > > > > > > > > > Typical, appearances and biased perceptions over > > > > > > > > > > > > substance. How > > > > > > > > > > > > something was over what was said. > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sep 27, 10:34 am, voxitar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Obama looked like a student being schooled by the > > > > > > > > > > > > > master. McCain > > > > > > > > > > > > > looked presidential, Obama just looked like whiner. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 5:16 AM, mike532 [ > > > > > > > > > > > > > Republicans for Obama ] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Six Short Takes on Why Obama Came out Ahead in the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Debate > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >http://www.alternet.org/election08/100565/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the first head-to-head debate of the 2008 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > campaign, the financial > > > > > > > > > > > > > > crisis dragged what the McCain camp had hoped would > > > > > > > > > > > > > > be fought in the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > GOP nominee's comfort zone -- foreign policy and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > national security -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > squarely into the realm of domestic policy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moderator Jim Lehrer made a smooth transition to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the voters' top > > > > > > > > > > > > > > concern in this election, saying that we were > > > > > > > > > > > > > > facing a potential > > > > > > > > > > > > > > meltdown of the global economy, which was by > > > > > > > > > > > > > > definition a matter of > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "national security." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What followed was a microcosm of the 2008 race: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Barack Obama dominated > > > > > > > > > > > > > > John McCain when the focus of the debate was on the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > domestic sphere > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and a fast-deteriorating financial sector, but > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ceded an enormous > > > > > > > > > > > > > > amount of political space to McCain on national > > > > > > > > > > > > > > security, accepting > > > > > > > > > > > > > > much of the Arizona senator's overarching > > > > > > > > > > > > > > neoconservative narrative > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that the United States is surrounded by mortal > > > > > > > > > > > > > > danger and evildoers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and has a moral duty to maintain our forces in Iraq > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and elsewhere in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > order to defend the homeland. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > McCain appeared twitchy and out of touch as the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > debate began with the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > banking meltdown and the Bush-Paulson plan to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > reverse it. He blinked > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rapidly and avoided eye contact with Obama, Lehrer > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and the audience as > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Obama came out swinging against McCain for enabling > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the "root causes" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > of the crisis to develop during decades in the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Congress, including a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > long stint on the Senate Committee on Commerce, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Science and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Transportation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Obama articulately condemned what he called a > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "philosophy that says > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that regulation is always bad," and blamed its > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pervasiveness for the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > economic mess. McCain, moments before saying that > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we have the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "greatest workers in the world" (and that the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > United States is > > > > > > > > > > > > > > simultaneously the "greatest importer" and > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "greatest exporter" in the > > > > > > > > > > > > > > world), tried to shift blame from Wall Street to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Main Street -- from > > > > > > > > > > > > > > predatory lenders and fast-and-loose brokers to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > those who find > > > > > > > > > > > > > > themselves with a home on the bubble today. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's a losing strategy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Obama, on the other hand, must be extremely > > > > > > > > > > > > > > confident that this > > > > > > > > > > > > > > election will be decided on the economy, as he > > > > > > > > > > > > > > failed to challenge > > > > > > > > > > > > > > McCain on his belligerent > > ... > > read more ยป --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ Thanks for being part of "PoliticalForum" at Google Groups. 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