I don't see it as additional rights, but we have been through this before ... I have always held that all unions should be civil and if you have a religion that blesses that union, it's not automatically recognized as a gov't sanctioned legal union, just a religious ceremony like baptism. There are many Christian denominations that recognize gay marraige, so there must be something to it!!!
On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Keith In Tampa <[email protected]> wrote: > Good Morning Brine! > > We may disagree, but (as stated in my response to Pluto; you are either > ignoring the issue, and/or are misinformed regarding the issue); this has > nothing to do with "Equality". You as a Gay man had the same "Equal > Rights" that I had a year ago; and now, you have "Additional" rights that > I don't have, based on who you choose to hop in the sack with. This is > morally reprehensible when you stop and think about it! > > As I pointed out earlier in this thread and in other threads, marriage is > an "ecclesiastical/religious" function; ALL States, or Nation-States will > recognize a marriage which has been performed under the "Eyes of God", > which requires a priest or a minister to acknowledge. Again, in our > Nation, States didn't even get involved in "marriage" or "marriage > contracts" until the mid to late 19th Century. Some states didn't get into > the marriage business until the 20th Century. The reasons for this (within > several states) was initially to prevent miscegenation. Later, I'm sure > that local and state governments realized that "marriage" was another > source of income, and began taxing what it termed, "Marriage" but that's a > topic for another day. Today, the government is needed in a sense, for > the dissolution of the contract, and separation of properties. > > By example, prior to 1966, the State of Florida did not license any > marriage that was not performed by clergy. Judges or notaries were not > usually utilized in the contract of marriage in most Southern States. It > was around this time that Florida, (unlike South Carolina and Georgia) > disallowed what is usually referred to as "Common Law Marriage"; (*See* > Lee Marvin) but did begin to acknowledge what it termed, "marriage > contracts" performed by a civil authority and the Florida Legislature > codified this procedure and these contracts by statute. > > A State "licenses" marriage, because a State cannot "Marry" anyone, > marriage is, and always has been a "religious/ecclesiastical" function! > > There was no outcry for same sex marriage ten years ago, twenty years ago, > and especially fifty or one hundred years ago. Thus, States adopted the > term, "Marriage" when these governmental entities first got into the > licensing business, when in fact the correct term should have been "Civil > Union". There is no distinction between the two terms from a legal > standpoint; but from an ecclesiastical perspective, there is a world of > difference, and thus, one more reason that the Supreme Court's recent > Opinon which redefined the term "Marriage" is unconstitutional. > > Nevertheless, therein lies the solution to the problem. No State, or > local or governmental entity should be in the "Marriage License" business, > but instead, the "Civil Union License" business. > > > On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 7:01 PM, Brian Bednarek <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Obviously we will always disagree, you feel equality is special, I don't >> ... so I suppose all those Christian denominations that are for equal >> rights are wrong and your version is right!!! >> >> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 4:54 PM, Keith In Tampa <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> A couple of "Facts" that you are overlooking Brine; >>> >>> First, the week prior to Ms. Davis refusing to place her signature on a >>> marriage license for same sex couples; wherein the U.S. Supreme Court >>> unconstitutionally redefined marriage; the Kentucky Constitution, as well >>> as Kentucky Code defined marriage as between one man and one woman. This >>> was the law of the land; and will of the 4.4 million Kentuckians who spoke >>> out on the Kentucky Constitutional Amendment. >>> >>> Ms. Davis was in fact an elected Official by the Kentuckians of Rowan >>> County. This, the same Kentuckians who in fact voted and vociferously were >>> opposed to the redefinition of marriage. >>> >>> "Special Rights" is exactly what has happened here. Prior to the >>> redefinition of marriage, a Gay man or a Gay woman was able to marry >>> anyone that they so chose as long as that individual was within the 5,000 >>> + years of the tenets and definition of marriage, and; providing that the >>> individual who was his or her partner wanted to be married! The Supreme >>> Court has now redefined the definition of marriage, where now a Gay man or >>> Woman can marry someone of their own sex, based on their sexual >>> proclivities. >>> >>> This is discriminatory against me, a single, heterosexual man, in that >>> it allows for a Gay man to reap certain tax benefits and other privileges >>> that I am not allowed, based on my sexual tastes. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 4:44 PM, Brian Bednarek <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Since the law of the land changed and she felt so strongly that she >>>> could not uphold the law, she should have quit the job ... if I am unable >>>> to do what my employer requires, my job is forfeit!!! >>>> >>>> How is it "special" to want the same rights afforded others ... why >>>> should a gay person have to jump through hoops and hire lawyers when a >>>> union granted by the state will give them all the same rights? >>>> >>>> The worst argument I heard against gay people getting married was by a >>>> woman on a board who didn't want them to collect social security ... do gay >>>> people NOT pay FICA???? >>>> >>>> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 4:17 PM, Keith In Tampa <[email protected] >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>>> No, what you are advocating is "Special Rights" for Gays. Mark me in >>>>> the "opposed" category. >>>>> >>>>> Ms. Davis by your own admission has persecuted no one. >>>>> >>>>> You should be ashamed at the hatred, smear and nasty rhetoric that you >>>>> have slung against this Christian woman! Shame on you! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 3:59 PM, plainolamerican < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> How did Ms. Davis, (*e.g.*; "the *fat assed bigoted bitch*") >>>>>> persecute Gays? >>>>>> --- >>>>>> she refused to issue them marriage licenses ... but you know that. >>>>>> >>>>>> What is your definition of "persecute"? >>>>>> --- >>>>>> denying someone equal rights. >>>>>> >>>>>> Get a grip Plain Ol' and stop it with the PC crap! You never used to >>>>>> do that! What has changed you? >>>>>> --- >>>>>> seeing American rights being denied to people because of their >>>>>> sexuality. That change took place about 10-15 years ago and you need to >>>>>> catch up. Thank goodness you're not a civil rights attorney. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tuesday, December 29, 2015 at 2:43:50 PM UTC-6, KeithInTampa wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> How did Ms. Davis, (*e.g.*; "the *fat assed bigoted bitch*") >>>>>>> persecute Gays? What is your definition of "persecute"? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Get a grip Plain Ol' and stop it with the PC crap! You never used >>>>>>> to do that! What has changed you? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 3:28 PM, plainolamerican < >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Kim Davis has discriminated against no one. Your typical hate >>>>>>>> filled extremist (and clueless) post proves my point! "Fat assed >>>>>>>> bigoted >>>>>>>> bitch" says it all Plain Ol'. Continue on with your hate, >>>>>>>> vehemence, and >>>>>>>> lies. >>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>> she persecuted gays and then disobeyed the courts .... so they sent >>>>>>>> her fat bigoted ass to jail with a warning that if she refused to issue >>>>>>>> marriage licenses she would be jailed again. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> it's you're klan that persecutes people because of your mythical >>>>>>>> religious beliefs and your klan that will end up in court and/or jail >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> persecution and bigotry. >>>>>>>> open your heart or open your wallet ... lawyer boy. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Monday, December 28, 2015 at 4:02:16 PM UTC-6, KeithInTampa >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> LOL! Kim Davis has discriminated against no one. Your typical >>>>>>>>> hate filled extremist (and clueless) post proves my point! "Fat assed >>>>>>>>> bigoted bitch" says it all Plain Ol'. Continue on with your hate, >>>>>>>>> vehemence, and lies. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 4:07 PM, plainolamerican < >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To date, you've yet to produce any Christian who has purportedly >>>>>>>>>> discriminated against or in any way harmed Gays or Transgenders. >>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>> does the name kim davis ring a bell? >>>>>>>>>> that fat ass bigoted bitch was sent to jail for persecuting >>>>>>>>>> lgbt's. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You will have a hard time somehow protecting those wacked out >>>>>>>>>> Atheists, Agnostics, and left of center elitists who hate Christians >>>>>>>>>> and go >>>>>>>>>> on the attack against them! >>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>> defend yourself at all times. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> There is no excuse Plain Ol'; other than to point to the >>>>>>>>>> breakdown of the family, moral decay and the lack of Christianity in >>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>> people's lives that cause them to go on murderous assassinations and >>>>>>>>>> terroristic rampages. >>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>> lack of xianity? >>>>>>>>>> nobody kills more people than religious myth believing abrahamics. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> the good news! >>>>>>>>>> world-wide, humans are becoming less religious. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Monday, December 28, 2015 at 1:57:46 PM UTC-6, KeithInTampa >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To date, you've yet to produce any Christian who has purportedly >>>>>>>>>>> discriminated against or in any way harmed Gays or Transgenders. >>>>>>>>>>> You will >>>>>>>>>>> have a hard time somehow protecting those wacked out Atheists, >>>>>>>>>>> Agnostics, >>>>>>>>>>> and left of center elitists who hate Christians and go on the attack >>>>>>>>>>> against them! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> There is no excuse Plain Ol'; other than to point to the >>>>>>>>>>> breakdown of the family, moral decay and the lack of Christianity >>>>>>>>>>> in these >>>>>>>>>>> people's lives that cause them to go on murderous assassinations and >>>>>>>>>>> terroristic rampages. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Chris Harper Mercer; >>>>>>>>>>> Floyd Lee Corkins; >>>>>>>>>>> Amy Bishop; >>>>>>>>>>> Andrew J. Stack, >>>>>>>>>>> James J. Lee; >>>>>>>>>>> Craig Stephen Hicks; >>>>>>>>>>> Adam Lanza, >>>>>>>>>>> Jared Laughner, >>>>>>>>>>> Seung-hui Cho, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Just to name a few..... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 1:39 PM, plainolamerican < >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Many more U.S. Christians headed to jail in 2016? >>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>> we should jail as many as it takes to insure equal protection >>>>>>>>>>>> to lgbt's and other minority groups from xian persecution. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, December 26, 2015 at 10:22:02 AM UTC-6, Travis >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Many more U.S. Christians headed to jail in 2016?* >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Posted By *Greg Corombos* On 12/25/2015 >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The year 2015 witnessed a Supreme Court decision ruling there >>>>>>>>>>>>> was a constitutional right to same-sex marriage, a federal judge >>>>>>>>>>>>> jailing a >>>>>>>>>>>>> county clerk for refusing to issue licenses to gay couples and >>>>>>>>>>>>> the public >>>>>>>>>>>>> explosion of the transgender movement, but one of the key figures >>>>>>>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> culture wars says 2016 could well be a year of Americans pushing >>>>>>>>>>>>> back >>>>>>>>>>>>> against the liberal agenda. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> In June, years worth of political and legal battles found >>>>>>>>>>>>> their way to the Supreme Court. By a 5-4 decision authored by >>>>>>>>>>>>> Justice >>>>>>>>>>>>> Anthony Kennedy, the court ruled that the equal protections >>>>>>>>>>>>> offered in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> Constitution ought to establish a right to same-sex marriage. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The decision was not surprising given previous rulings by the >>>>>>>>>>>>> same justices, but Liberty Counsel Chairman Mathew Staver told >>>>>>>>>>>>> WND and >>>>>>>>>>>>> Radio America it was disgraceful nonetheless. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> “Frankly, I don’t think it deserves any respect as the rule of >>>>>>>>>>>>> law,” Staver said. “It’s just the opinion of five justices. >>>>>>>>>>>>> However, some >>>>>>>>>>>>> people are playing the games of masquerade and assuming this is >>>>>>>>>>>>> what the >>>>>>>>>>>>> Constitution says. That will have a culture-changing impact at >>>>>>>>>>>>> every level.” >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Although he refuses to honor the court ruling, Staver knows it >>>>>>>>>>>>> is a huge moment in the battle over American morality. He said >>>>>>>>>>>>> the nation >>>>>>>>>>>>> has arrived at a major cultural crossroads. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> “This is a culture clash of unprecedented proportions that >>>>>>>>>>>>> we’ve now entered into. This will continue as we move into the >>>>>>>>>>>>> new year,” >>>>>>>>>>>>> he said. “It’s going to come up in every conceivable context >>>>>>>>>>>>> private >>>>>>>>>>>>> schools, churches, universities, colleges, you name it. Every >>>>>>>>>>>>> institution, >>>>>>>>>>>>> every person of faith will have to address this issue.” >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Staver would know. Weeks after the Supreme Court decision, >>>>>>>>>>>>> he became counsel for Kim Davis, the clerk for Rowan County, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kentucky. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Davis, a born-again Christian, refused to issue marriage licenses >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> homosexual couples, citing her freedom of conscience and free >>>>>>>>>>>>> religious >>>>>>>>>>>>> expression. The federal courts disagreed. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> “Two months after this 5-4 opinion, the first Christian went >>>>>>>>>>>>> to jail for her sincerely held religious beliefs,” Staver said. >>>>>>>>>>>>> “Although >>>>>>>>>>>>> she was the first, she certainly won’t be the last. It will not >>>>>>>>>>>>> involve >>>>>>>>>>>>> only public employees or public elected officials but certainly >>>>>>>>>>>>> the private >>>>>>>>>>>>> sector as well.” >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Staver said the entire Davis saga could easily have been >>>>>>>>>>>>> avoided, but the Democratic governor refused to take action to >>>>>>>>>>>>> protect the >>>>>>>>>>>>> rights of conscience. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> “There was no accommodation that was given by the former >>>>>>>>>>>>> governor, Steven Beshear, who is no longer in office. He refused >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> accommodate her so she made her own accommodation. When she >>>>>>>>>>>>> returned to >>>>>>>>>>>>> work, she refused to violate her conscience, so she removed her >>>>>>>>>>>>> name and >>>>>>>>>>>>> title from the license,” Staver said. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> *Listen to the WND/Radio America interview with Mathew Staver:* >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Beshear was replaced by tea-party Republican Matt Bevin, who >>>>>>>>>>>>> scored a large upset victory over Democrat Jack Conway. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "He became elected, in large part, because of the marriage >>>>>>>>>>>>> issue and Kim Davis," Staver said. "He took the side of natural >>>>>>>>>>>>> marriage >>>>>>>>>>>>> and supports Kim Davis. He's now been sworn into office, and he's >>>>>>>>>>>>> already >>>>>>>>>>>>> [issued] an executive order to protect the religious freedom of >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kim Davis >>>>>>>>>>>>> and other clerks like her." >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Dec. 23, Bevin ordered the removal of clerks' names from >>>>>>>>>>>>> marriage licenses throughout the commonwealth, the very same >>>>>>>>>>>>> decision Davis >>>>>>>>>>>>> made unilaterally earlier in the year. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Staver said the story of Gov. Bevin ought to be a lesson to >>>>>>>>>>>>> national candidates as well. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "The candidates will have to address this issue. The voters >>>>>>>>>>>>> will require that they address this issue," said Staver, who >>>>>>>>>>>>> believes >>>>>>>>>>>>> pushing back is a winning issue for the GOP. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "The more and more the issue of same-sex marriage and the >>>>>>>>>>>>> radical, so-called LGBT agenda moves forward, the more people >>>>>>>>>>>>> will see how >>>>>>>>>>>>> intolerant it is, how coercive it is," Staver said. "Kim Davis is >>>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>>> Exhibit A in that situation. I think most people will say, 'This >>>>>>>>>>>>> is not the >>>>>>>>>>>>> kind of America we want to live in. This is not what we bargained >>>>>>>>>>>>> for,' and >>>>>>>>>>>>> they're going to push back." >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Staver also believes the reputation of the nation's courts is >>>>>>>>>>>>> in peril. He said an upcoming ruling in high-profile abortion >>>>>>>>>>>>> cases will be >>>>>>>>>>>>> critical to how Americans view the courts. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "I think it's pushing itself into the realm of illegitimacy," >>>>>>>>>>>>> he said. "I think the same-sex marriage case pushed it across the >>>>>>>>>>>>> line. I >>>>>>>>>>>>> think if it goes the wrong way on the abortion or the >>>>>>>>>>>>> contraception and the >>>>>>>>>>>>> abortion-inducing drug mandate, I think that will finish off this >>>>>>>>>>>>> court and >>>>>>>>>>>>> people will just simply say, 'We're not going to obey people who >>>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>>> invent the law as they go.'" >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> As the gay marriage debate reached a critical moment at the >>>>>>>>>>>>> Supreme Court, the transgender movement also emerged much more >>>>>>>>>>>>> publicly in >>>>>>>>>>>>> 2015, led by Olympic decathlon champion Bruce Jenner announcing he >>>>>>>>>>>>> identified as a woman named Caitlyn. Multiple television >>>>>>>>>>>>> programs emerged <http://dateline.radioamerica.org/?p=15655> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> highlight the stories of Jenner and others. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "It is part of their whole movement to bring out this bizarre >>>>>>>>>>>>> 'I think, therefore I am' concept," Staver said. "We always saw >>>>>>>>>>>>> that in >>>>>>>>>>>>> philosophy, but now they're actually trying to make that a >>>>>>>>>>>>> reality, that if >>>>>>>>>>>>> you think you're a woman then you ought to be legally recognized >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> treated as a woman? It's absolutely absurd." >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Staver said it doesn't take a deep faith to understand the >>>>>>>>>>>>> deep flaws in embracing the movement. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "You cannot get used to something that pushes in your face and >>>>>>>>>>>>> is a direct collision with your sincerely held religious beliefs >>>>>>>>>>>>> and, >>>>>>>>>>>>> frankly, objective, observable reality," he said. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Staver admits 2015 was a difficult year for cultural >>>>>>>>>>>>> conservatives, but he said there is much more reason for hope >>>>>>>>>>>>> than despair. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "We haven't even begun to see this battle," Staver said. "This >>>>>>>>>>>>> battle is far from over, and, for me, I ultimately believe we >>>>>>>>>>>>> will win this >>>>>>>>>>>>> battle going forward." >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> URL to article: >>>>>>>>>>>>> *http://www.wnd.com/2015/12/many-more-u-s-christians-headed-to-jail-in-2016/ >>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.wnd.com/2015/12/many-more-u-s-christians-headed-to-jail-in-2016/>* >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> __._,_.___ >>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>> Posted by: "Beowulf" <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit Your Group >>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/grendelreport/info;_ylc=X3oDMTJmYjNuOGYyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIwMTk0ODA2BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTMyMzY2NwRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzE0NTExNDYxNzk-> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> [image: Yahoo! 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