Do other members see the fallacy of Plain Ol's attempted arguments? Besides attempting to twist my words, he pulls out the very first attempt at two militant Gay men in Minnesota, (obviously influenced by Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madsen....go and Google those names Plain Ol!) as some example of the American people's clamoring for the redefinition of marriage!
It just hasn't happened, and when presented with the truth and fact; Plain Ol then reverts to his failed attempt at trying to portray this Nation as never being influenced by our religious heritage! It's laughable! On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 12:12 PM, plainolamerican <[email protected] > wrote: > The term "Marriage" is not only a misnomer, it is crossing the boundaries > of the State getting involved in religion. > --- > imo ... neither the state or the church should have control over marriage. > > Prior to the last two decades, no one was clamoring for "Gay Marriage", > --- > stop lying ... > > - On May 18, 1970, two University of Minnesota students, Richard John > Jack Baker and James Michael McConnell applied to Hennepin County District > Court clerk Gerald Nelson for a marriage license. He denied the > application, because the applicants were both men. Baker and McConnell sued > Nelson, claiming Minnesota law on marriage made no mention of gender. The > trial court was not impressed with the argument, agreeing with Nelson. The > state Supreme Court agreed with the lower court. When Baker-McConnell went > to the U.S. Supreme Court, the couple was rebuffed again > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_v._Nelson>. > > > and these "Civil Unions" that the government was performing under the > guise of "Marriage" was of no concern to the vast majority of Americans, > because; well....We are a Christian Nation! > --- > delusion noted. > our forefathers warned us about people like you. > > By their actions, the Founding Fathers made clear that their primary > concern was religious freedom, not the advancement of a state religion. > Individuals, not the government, would define religious faith and practice > in the United States. Thus the Founders ensured that in no official sense > would America be a Christian Republic. Ten years after the Constitutional > Convention ended its work, the country assured the world that the United > States was a secular state, and that its negotiations would adhere to the > rule of law, not the dictates of the Christian faith. > > (Whether you like it or not; that is our roots and our heritage! > --- > your roots as a xian have absolutely no bearing on the secular position of > the US government. > > It was easier and more practical to call these contracts, "Marriages" for > expediency. But now, with the advent of Gays and purported civil rights, > it is now a big contradiction and should be changed. I am convinced it > will be. > --- > if it's changed, both the government and church should be absolved of any > power over marriages. > > What I oppose is the government getting involved in ecclesiastical > matters, and "Marriage" is just that, no matter how you cut it! > --- > delusion noted. > never again in America will anyone need a church to get married. > your should keep your religious beliefs to yourself and out of the > government. > > > > > On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 10:14:14 AM UTC-6, KeithInTampa wrote: >> >> Good Morning Brine! >> >> You and I agree here. I have no problem with two of the same sex going >> to a church and having their union "Blessed". I've said this repeatedly, >> that if you can find a Church that will marry you, then more power to you, >> and go for it! >> >> The term "Marriage" is not only a misnomer, it is crossing the >> boundaries of the State getting involved in religion. Prior to the last >> two decades, no one was clamoring for "Gay Marriage", and these "Civil >> Unions" that the government was performing under the guise of "Marriage" >> was of no concern to the vast majority of Americans, because; well....We >> are a Christian Nation! (Whether you like it or not; that is our roots >> and our heritage! It was easier and more practical to call these >> contracts, "Marriages" for expediency. But now, with the advent of Gays >> and purported civil rights, it is now a big contradiction and should be >> changed. I am convinced it will be. >> >> What I oppose is the government getting involved in ecclesiastical >> matters, and "Marriage" is just that, no matter how you cut it! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Brian Bednarek <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> I don't see it as additional rights, but we have been through this before >> ... I have always held that all unions should be civil and if you have a >> religion that blesses that union, it's not automatically recognized as a >> gov't sanctioned legal union, just a religious ceremony like baptism. There >> are many Christian denominations that recognize gay marraige, so there must >> be something to it!!! >> >> On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Keith In Tampa <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> Good Morning Brine! >> >> We may disagree, but (as stated in my response to Pluto; you are either >> ignoring the issue, and/or are misinformed regarding the issue); this has >> nothing to do with "Equality". You as a Gay man had the same "Equal >> Rights" that I had a year ago; and now, you have "Additional" rights that >> I don't have, based on who you choose to hop in the sack with. This is >> morally reprehensible when you stop and think about it! >> >> As I pointed out earlier in this thread and in other threads, marriage is >> an "ecclesiastical/religious" function; ALL States, or Nation-States will >> recognize a marriage which has been performed under the "Eyes of God", >> which requires a priest or a minister to acknowledge. Again, in our >> Nation, States didn't even get involved in "marriage" or "marriage >> contracts" until the mid to late 19th Century. Some states didn't get into >> the marriage business until the 20th Century. The reasons for this (within >> several states) was initially to prevent miscegenation. Later, I'm sure >> that local and state governments realized that "marriage" was another >> source of income, and began taxing what it termed, "Marriage" but that's a >> topic for another day. Today, the government is needed in a sense, for >> the dissolution of the contract, and separation of properties. >> >> By example, prior to 1966, the State of Florida did not license any >> marriage that was not performed by clergy. Judges or notaries were not >> usually utilized in the contract of marriage in most Southern States. It >> was around this time that Florida, (unlike South Carolina and Georgia) >> disallowed what is usually referred to as "Common Law Marriage"; (*See* >> Lee Marvin) but did begin to acknowledge what it termed, "marriage >> contracts" performed by a civil authority and the Florida Legislature >> codified this procedure and these contracts by statute. >> >> A State "licenses" marriage, because a State cannot "Marry" anyone, >> marriage is, and always has been a "religious/ecclesiastical" function! >> >> There was no outcry for same sex marriage ten years ago, twenty years >> ago, and especially fifty or one hundred years ago. Thus, States adopted >> the term, "Marriage" when these governmental entities first got into the >> licensing business, when in fact the correct term should have been "Civil >> Union". There is no distinction between the two terms from a legal >> standpoint; but from an ecclesiastical perspective, there is a world of >> difference, and thus, one more reason that the Supreme Court's recent >> Opinon which redefined the term "Marriage" is unconstitutional. >> >> Nevertheless, therein lies the solution to the problem. No State, or >> local or governmental entity should be in the "Marriage License" business, >> but instead, the "Civil Union License" business. >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 7:01 PM, Brian Bednarek <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Obviously we will always disagree, you feel equality is special, I don't >> ... so I suppose all those Christian denominations that are for equal >> rights are wrong and your version is right!!! >> >> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 4:54 PM, Keith In Tampa <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> A couple of "Facts" that you are overlooking Brine; >> >> First, the week prior to Ms. Davis refusing to place her signature on a >> marriage license for same sex couples; wherein the U.S. Supreme Court >> unconstitutionally redefined marriage; the Kentucky Constitution, as well >> as Kentucky Code defined marriage as between one man and one woman. This >> was the law of the land; and will of the 4.4 million Kentuckians who spoke >> out on the Kentucky Constitutional Amendment. >> >> Ms. Davis was in fact an elected Official by the Kentuckians of Rowan >> County. This, the same Kentuckians who in fact voted and vociferously were >> opposed to the redefinition of marriage. >> >> "Special Rights" is exactly what has happened here. Prior to the >> redefinition of marriage, a Gay man or a Gay woman was able to marry >> anyone that they so chose as long as that individual was within the 5,000 >> + years of the tenets and definition of marriage, and; providing that the >> individual who was his or her partner wanted to be married! The Supreme >> Court has now redefined the definition of marriage, where now a Gay man or >> Woman can marry someone of their own sex, based on their sexual >> proclivities. >> >> This is discriminatory against me, a single, heterosexual man, in that it >> allows for a Gay man to reap certain tax benefits and other privileges that >> I am not allowed, based on my sexual tastes. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 4:44 PM, Brian Bednarek <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Since the law of the land changed and she felt so strongly that she could >> not uphold the law, she should have quit the job ... if I am unable to do >> what my employer requires, my job is forfeit!!! >> >> How is it "special" to want the same rights afforded others ... why >> should a gay person have to jump through hoops and hire lawyers when a >> union granted by the state will give them all the same rights? >> >> The worst argument I heard against gay people getting married was by a >> woman on a board who didn't want them to collect social security ... do gay >> people NOT pay FICA???? >> >> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 4:17 PM, Keith In Tampa <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> No, what you are advocating is "Special Rights" for Gays. Mark me in >> the "opposed" category. >> >> Ms. Davis by your own admission has persecuted no one. >> >> You should be ashamed at the hatred, smear and nasty rhetoric that you >> have slung against this Christian woman! Shame on you! >> >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 3:59 PM, plainolamerican <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> How did Ms. Davis, (*e.g.*; "the *fat assed bigoted bitch*") persecute >> Gays? >> --- >> she refused to issue them marriage licenses ... but you know that. >> >> What is your definition of "persecute"? >> --- >> denying someone equal rights. >> >> Get a grip Plain Ol' and stop it with the PC crap! You never used to do >> that! What has changed you? >> --- >> seeing American rights being denied to people because of their sexuality. >> That change took place about 10-15 years ago and you need to catch up. >> Thank goodness you're not a civil rights attorney. >> >> >> On Tuesday, December 29, 2015 at 2:43:50 PM UTC-6, KeithInTampa wrote: >> >> How did Ms. Davis, (*e.g.*; "the *fat assed bigoted bitch*") persecute >> Gays? What is your definition of "persecute"? >> >> Get a grip Plain Ol' and stop it with the PC crap! You never used to do >> that! What has changed you? >> >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 3:28 PM, plainolamerican <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> Kim Davis has discriminated against no one. Your typical hate filled >> extremist (and clueless) post proves my point! "Fat assed bigoted bitch" >> says it all Plain Ol'. Continue on with your hate, vehemence, and lies. >> --- >> she persecuted gays and then disobeyed the courts .... so they sent her >> fat bigoted ass to jail with a warning that if she refused to issue >> marriage licenses she would be jailed again. >> >> it's you're klan that persecutes people because of your mythical >> religious beliefs and your klan that will end up in court and/or jail for >> persecution and bigotry. >> open your heart or open your wallet ... lawyer boy. >> >> >> On Monday, December 28, 2015 at 4:02:16 PM UTC-6, KeithInTampa wrote: >> >> LOL! Kim Davis has discriminated against no one. Your typical hate >> filled extremist (and clueless) post proves my point! "Fat assed bigoted >> bitch" says it all Plain Ol'. Continue on with your hate, vehemence, and >> lies. >> >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 4:07 PM, plainolamerican <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> To date, you've yet to produce any Christian who has purportedly >> discriminated against or in any way harmed Gays or Transgenders. >> --- >> does the name kim davis ring a bell? >> that fat ass bigoted bitch was sent to jail for persecuting lgbt's. >> >> You will have a hard time somehow protecting those wacked out Atheists, >> Agnostics, and left of center elitists who hate Christians and go on the >> attack against them! >> --- >> defend yourself at all times. >> >> There is no excuse Plain Ol'; other than to point to the breakdown of the >> family, moral decay and the lack of Christianity in these people's lives >> that cause them to go on murderous assassinations and terroristic rampages. >> --- >> lack of xianity? >> nobody kills more people than religious myth believing abrahamics. >> >> the good news! >> world-wide, humans are becoming less religious. >> >> >> On Monday, December 28, 2015 at 1:57:46 PM UTC-6, KeithInTampa wrote: >> >> To date, you've yet to produce any Christian who has purportedly >> discriminated against or in any way harmed Gays or Transgenders. You will >> have a hard time somehow protecting those wacked out Atheists, Agnostics, >> and left of center elitists who hate Christians and go on the attack >> against them! >> >> There is no excuse Plain Ol'; other than to point to the breakdown of the >> family, moral decay and the lack of Christianity in these people's lives >> that cause them to go on murderous assassinations and terroristic rampages. >> >> Chris Harper Mercer; >> Floyd Lee Corkins; >> Amy Bishop; >> Andrew J. Stack, >> James J. Lee; >> Craig Stephen Hicks; >> Adam Lanza, >> Jared Laughner, >> Seung-hui Cho, >> >> Just to name a few..... >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 1:39 PM, plainolamerican <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> Many more U.S. Christians headed to jail in 2016? >> --- >> we should jail as many as it takes to insure equal protection to lgbt's >> and other minority groups from xian persecution. >> >> On Saturday, December 26, 2015 at 10:22:02 AM UTC-6, Travis wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *Many more U.S. Christians headed to jail in 2016?* >> >> Posted By *Greg Corombos* On 12/25/2015 >> >> The year 2015 witnessed a Supreme Court decision ruling there was a >> constitutional right to same-sex marriage, a federal judge jailing a county >> clerk for refusing to issue licenses to gay couples and the public >> explosion of the transgender movement, but one of the key figures in the >> culture wars says 2016 could well be a year of Americans pushing back >> against the liberal agenda. >> >> In June, years worth of political and legal battles found their way to >> the Supreme Court. By a 5-4 decision authored by Justice Anthony Kennedy, >> the court ruled that the equal protections offered in the Constitution >> ought to establish a right to same-sex marriage. >> >> The decision was not surprising given previous rulings by the same >> justices, but Liberty Counsel Chairman Mathew Staver told WND and Radio >> America it was disgraceful nonetheless. >> >> “Frankly, I don’t think it deserves any respect as the rule of law,” >> Staver said. “It’s just the opinion of five justices. However, some people >> are playing the games of masquerade and assuming this is what the >> Constitution says. That will have a culture-changing impact at every level.” >> >> Although he refuses to honor the court ruling, Staver knows it is a huge >> moment in the battle over American morality. He said the nation has arrived >> at a major cultural crossroads. >> >> “This is a culture clash of unprecedented proportions that we’ve now >> entered into. This will continue as we move into the new year,” he said. >> “It’s going to come up in every conceivable context private schools, >> churches, universities, colleges, you name it. Every institution, every >> person of faith will have to address this issue.” >> >> Staver would know. Weeks after the Supreme Court decision, he became >> counsel for Kim Davis, the clerk for Rowan County, Kentucky. Davis, a >> born-again Christian, refused to issue marriage licenses to homosexual >> couples, citing her freedom of conscience and free religious expression. >> The federal courts disagreed. >> >> “Two months after this 5-4 opinion, the first Christian went to jail for >> her sincerely held religious beliefs,” Staver said. “Although she was the >> first, she certainly won’t be the last. It will not involve only public >> employees or public elected officials but certainly the private sector as >> well.” >> >> Staver said the entire Davis saga could easily have been avoided, but the >> Democratic governor refused to take action to protect the rights of >> conscience. >> >> “There was no accommodation that was given by the former governor, Steven >> Beshear, who is no longer in office. He refused to accommodate her so she >> made her own accommodation. When she returned to work, she refused to >> violate her conscience, so she removed her name and title from the >> license,” Staver said. >> >> *Listen to the WND/Radio America interview with Mathew Staver:* >> >> Beshear was replaced by tea-party Republican Matt Bevin, who scored a >> large upset victory over Democrat Jack Conway. >> >> "He became elected, in large part, because of the marriage issue and Kim >> Davis," Staver said. "He took the side of natural marriage and supports Kim >> Davis. He's now been sworn into office, and he's already [issued] an >> executive order to protect the religious freedom of Kim Davis and other >> clerks like her." >> >> On Dec. 23, Bevin ordered the removal of clerks' names from marriage >> licenses throughout the commonwealth, the very same decision Davis made >> unilaterally earlier in the year. >> >> Staver said the story of Gov. Bevin ought to be a lesson to national >> candidates as well. >> >> "The candidates will have to address this issue. The voters will require >> that they address this issue," said Staver, who believes pushing back is a >> winning issue for the GOP. >> >> "The more and more the issue of same-sex marriage and the radical, >> so-called LGBT agenda moves forward, the more people will see how >> intolerant it is, how coercive it is," Staver said. "Kim Davis is just >> Exhibit A in that situation. I think most people will say, 'This is not the >> kind of America we want to live in. This is not what we bargained for,' and >> they're going to push back." >> >> Staver also believes the reputation of the nation's courts is in peril. >> He said an upcoming ruling in high-profile abortion cases will be critical >> to how Americans view the courts. >> >> "I think it's pushing itself into the realm of illegitimacy," he said. "I >> think the same-sex marriage case pushed it across the line. I think if it >> goes the wrong way on the abortion or the contraception and the >> abortion-inducing drug mandate, I think that will finish off this court and >> people will just simply say, 'We're not going to obey people who just >> invent the law as they go.'" >> >> As the gay marriage debate reached a critical moment at the Supreme >> Court, the transgender movement also emerged much more publicly in 2015, >> led by Olympic decathlon champion Bruce Jenner announcing he identified as >> a woman named Caitlyn. Multiple television programs emerged >> <http://dateline.radioamerica.org/?p=15655> to highlight the stories of >> Jenner and others. >> >> "It is part of their whole movement to bring out this bizarre 'I think, >> therefore I am' concept," Staver said. "We always saw that in philosophy, >> but now they're actually trying to make that a reality, that if you think >> you're a woman then you ought to be legally recognized and treated as a >> woman? It's absolutely absurd." >> >> Staver said it doesn't take a deep faith to understand the deep flaws in >> embracing the movement. >> >> "You cannot get used to something that pushes in your face and is a >> direct collision with your sincerely held religious beliefs and, frankly, >> objective, observable reality," he said. >> >> Staver admits 2015 was a difficult year for cultural conservatives, but >> he said there is much more reason for hope than despair. >> >> "We haven't even begun to see this battle," Staver said. "This battle is >> far from over, and, for me, I ultimately believe we will win this battle >> going forward." >> >> URL to article: >> *http://www.wnd.com/2015/12/many-more-u-s-christians-headed-to-jail-in-2016/ >> <http://www.wnd.com/2015/12/many-more-u-s-christians-headed-to-jail-in-2016/>* >> >> >> __._,_.___ >> ------------------------------ >> Posted by: "Beowulf" <[email protected]> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> Visit Your Group >> <https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/grendelreport/info;_ylc=X3oDMTJmYjNuOGYyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIwMTk0ODA2BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTMyMzY2NwRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzE0NTExNDYxNzk-> >> >> >> [image: Yahoo! 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