I suppose that to the people who have been denied the ability to have a government approved union that has all the rights of a male/female union it does matter ... it was not so long ago that gay people were being maligned for being sex crazed people with no long-term relationships!!! It wasn't that long ago that blacks and whites were not allowed to marry ... society is fluid and things change!!!
On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 9:01 PM, geoffrey theist <[email protected]> wrote: > Keith, brian, my question to you both, is this issue much ado about > nothing? I haven't gotten into the details of the courts ruling. Are > churches being forced to perform same sex marriages? I don't think they > are. Before the court ruling church weddings married a couple in the eyes > of God but you still had to go to the court house to have it legally > recognized. But you don't have a legal requirement for a church > wedding.anyway on a lighter note same sex couples may have done themselves > a disservice by now being legally bound to a possible life of misery and > marital strife that only a gun or a scumsucking lawyer can bring to an > end....... > G > On Wednesday, December 30, 2015, Keith In Tampa <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Good Morning Brine! >> >> You and I agree here. I have no problem with two of the same sex going >> to a church and having their union "Blessed". I've said this repeatedly, >> that if you can find a Church that will marry you, then more power to you, >> and go for it! >> >> The term "Marriage" is not only a misnomer, it is crossing the >> boundaries of the State getting involved in religion. Prior to the last >> two decades, no one was clamoring for "Gay Marriage", and these "Civil >> Unions" that the government was performing under the guise of "Marriage" >> was of no concern to the vast majority of Americans, because; well....We >> are a Christian Nation! (Whether you like it or not; that is our roots >> and our heritage! It was easier and more practical to call these >> contracts, "Marriages" for expediency. But now, with the advent of Gays >> and purported civil rights, it is now a big contradiction and should be >> changed. I am convinced it will be. >> >> What I oppose is the government getting involved in ecclesiastical >> matters, and "Marriage" is just that, no matter how you cut it! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Brian Bednarek <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> I don't see it as additional rights, but we have been through this before >> ... I have always held that all unions should be civil and if you have a >> religion that blesses that union, it's not automatically recognized as a >> gov't sanctioned legal union, just a religious ceremony like baptism. There >> are many Christian denominations that recognize gay marraige, so there must >> be something to it!!! >> >> On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Keith In Tampa <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> Good Morning Brine! >> >> We may disagree, but (as stated in my response to Pluto; you are either >> ignoring the issue, and/or are misinformed regarding the issue); this has >> nothing to do with "Equality". You as a Gay man had the same "Equal >> Rights" that I had a year ago; and now, you have "Additional" rights that >> I don't have, based on who you choose to hop in the sack with. This is >> morally reprehensible when you stop and think about it! >> >> As I pointed out earlier in this thread and in other threads, marriage is >> an "ecclesiastical/religious" function; ALL States, or Nation-States will >> recognize a marriage which has been performed under the "Eyes of God", >> which requires a priest or a minister to acknowledge. Again, in our >> Nation, States didn't even get involved in "marriage" or "marriage >> contracts" until the mid to late 19th Century. Some states didn't get into >> the marriage business until the 20th Century. The reasons for this (within >> several states) was initially to prevent miscegenation. Later, I'm sure >> that local and state governments realized that "marriage" was another >> source of income, and began taxing what it termed, "Marriage" but that's a >> topic for another day. Today, the government is needed in a sense, for >> the dissolution of the contract, and separation of properties. >> >> By example, prior to 1966, the State of Florida did not license any >> marriage that was not performed by clergy. Judges or notaries were not >> usually utilized in the contract of marriage in most Southern States. It >> was around this time that Florida, (unlike South Carolina and Georgia) >> disallowed what is usually referred to as "Common Law Marriage"; (*See* >> Lee Marvin) but did begin to acknowledge what it termed, "marriage >> contracts" performed by a civil authority and the Florida Legislature >> codified this procedure and these contracts by statute. >> >> A State "licenses" marriage, because a State cannot "Marry" anyone, >> marriage is, and always has been a "religious/ecclesiastical" function! >> >> There was no outcry for same sex marriage ten years ago, twenty years >> ago, and especially fifty or one hundred years ago. Thus, States adopted >> the term, "Marriage" when these governmental entities first got into the >> licensing business, when in fact the correct term should have been "Civil >> Union". There is no distinction between the two terms from a legal >> standpoint; but from an ecclesiastical perspective, there is a world of >> difference, and thus, one more reason that the Supreme Court's recent >> Opinon which redefined the term "Marriage" is unconstitutional. >> >> Nevertheless, therein lies the solution to the problem. No State, or >> local or governmental entity should be in the "Marriage License" business, >> but instead, the "Civil Union License" business. >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 7:01 PM, Brian Bednarek <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Obviously we will always disagree, you feel equality is special, I don't >> ... so I suppose all those Christian denominations that are for equal >> rights are wrong and your version is right!!! >> >> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 4:54 PM, Keith In Tampa <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> A couple of "Facts" that you are overlooking Brine; >> >> First, the week prior to Ms. Davis refusing to place her signature on a >> marriage license for same sex couples; wherein the U.S. Supreme Court >> unconstitutionally redefined marriage; the Kentucky Constitution, as well >> as Kentucky Code defined marriage as between one man and one woman. This >> was the law of the land; and will of the 4.4 million Kentuckians who spoke >> out on the Kentucky Constitutional Amendment. >> >> Ms. Davis was in fact an elected Official by the Kentuckians of Rowan >> County. This, the same Kentuckians who in fact voted and vociferously were >> opposed to the redefinition of marriage. >> >> "Special Rights" is exactly what has happened here. Prior to the >> redefinition of marriage, a Gay man or a Gay woman was able to marry >> anyone that they so chose as long as that individual was within the 5,000 >> + years of the tenets and definition of marriage, and; providing that the >> individual who was his or her partner wanted to be married! The Supreme >> Court has now redefined the definition of marriage, where now a Gay man or >> Woman can marry someone of their own sex, based on their sexual >> proclivities. >> >> This is discriminatory against me, a single, heterosexual man, in that it >> allows for a Gay man to reap certain tax benefits and other privileges that >> I am not allowed, based on my sexual tastes. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 4:44 PM, Brian Bednarek <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Since the law of the land changed and she felt so strongly that she could >> not uphold the law, she should have quit the job ... if I am unable to do >> what my employer requires, my job is forfeit!!! >> >> How is it "special" to want the same rights afforded others ... why >> should a gay person have to jump through hoops and hire lawyers when a >> union granted by the state will give them all the same rights? >> >> The worst argument I heard against gay people getting married was by a >> woman on a board who didn't want them to collect social security ... do gay >> people NOT pay FICA???? >> >> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 4:17 PM, Keith In Tampa <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> No, what you are advocating is "Special Rights" for Gays. Mark me in >> the "opposed" category. >> >> Ms. Davis by your own admission has persecuted no one. >> >> You should be ashamed at the hatred, smear and nasty rhetoric that you >> have slung against this Christian woman! Shame on you! >> >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 3:59 PM, plainolamerican < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> How did Ms. Davis, (*e.g.*; "the *fat assed bigoted bitch*") persecute >> Gays? >> --- >> she refused to issue them marriage licenses ... but you know that. >> >> What is your definition of "persecute"? >> --- >> denying someone equal rights. >> >> Get a grip Plain Ol' and stop it with the PC crap! You never used to do >> that! What has changed you? >> --- >> seeing American rights being denied to people because of their sexuality. >> That change took place about 10-15 years ago and you need to catch up. >> Thank goodness you're not a civil rights attorney. >> >> >> On Tuesday, December 29, 2015 at 2:43:50 PM UTC-6, KeithInTampa wrote: >> >> How did Ms. Davis, (*e.g.*; "the *fat assed bigoted bitch*") persecute >> Gays? What is your definition of "persecute"? >> >> Get a grip Plain Ol' and stop it with the PC crap! You never used to do >> that! What has changed you? >> >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 3:28 PM, plainolamerican <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> Kim Davis has discriminated against no one. Your typical hate filled >> extremist (and clueless) post proves my point! "Fat assed bigoted bitch" >> says it all Plain Ol'. Continue on with your hate, vehemence, and lies. >> --- >> she persecuted gays and then disobeyed the courts .... so they sent her >> fat bigoted ass to jail with a warning that if she refused to issue >> marriage licenses she would be jailed again. >> >> it's you're klan that persecutes people because of your mythical >> religious beliefs and your klan that will end up in court and/or jail for >> persecution and bigotry. >> open your heart or open your wallet ... lawyer boy. >> >> >> On Monday, December 28, 2015 at 4:02:16 PM UTC-6, KeithInTampa wrote: >> >> LOL! Kim Davis has discriminated against no one. Your typical hate >> filled extremist (and clueless) post proves my point! "Fat assed bigoted >> bitch" says it all Plain Ol'. Continue on with your hate, vehemence, and >> lies. >> >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 4:07 PM, plainolamerican <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> To date, you've yet to produce any Christian who has purportedly >> discriminated against or in any way harmed Gays or Transgenders. >> --- >> does the name kim davis ring a bell? >> that fat ass bigoted bitch was sent to jail for persecuting lgbt's. >> >> You will have a hard time somehow protecting those wacked out Atheists, >> Agnostics, and left of center elitists who hate Christians and go on the >> attack against them! >> --- >> defend yourself at all times. >> >> There is no excuse Plain Ol'; other than to point to the breakdown of the >> family, moral decay and the lack of Christianity in these people's lives >> that cause them to go on murderous assassinations and terroristic rampages. >> --- >> lack of xianity? >> nobody kills more people than religious myth believing abrahamics. >> >> the good news! >> world-wide, humans are becoming less religious. >> >> >> On Monday, December 28, 2015 at 1:57:46 PM UTC-6, KeithInTampa wrote: >> >> To date, you've yet to produce any Christian who has purportedly >> discriminated against or in any way harmed Gays or Transgenders. You will >> have a hard time somehow protecting those wacked out Atheists, Agnostics, >> and left of center elitists who hate Christians and go on the attack >> against them! >> >> There is no excuse Plain Ol'; other than to point to the breakdown of the >> family, moral decay and the lack of Christianity in these people's lives >> that cause them to go on murderous assassinations and terroristic rampages. >> >> Chris Harper Mercer; >> Floyd Lee Corkins; >> Amy Bishop; >> Andrew J. Stack, >> James J. Lee; >> Craig Stephen Hicks; >> Adam Lanza, >> Jared Laughner, >> Seung-hui Cho, >> >> Just to name a few..... >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 1:39 PM, plainolamerican <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> Many more U.S. Christians headed to jail in 2016? >> --- >> we should jail as many as it takes to insure equal protection to lgbt's >> and other minority groups from xian persecution. >> >> On Saturday, December 26, 2015 at 10:22:02 AM UTC-6, Travis wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *Many more U.S. Christians headed to jail in 2016?* >> >> Posted By *Greg Corombos* On 12/25/2015 >> >> The year 2015 witnessed a Supreme Court decision ruling there was a >> constitutional right to same-sex marriage, a federal judge jailing a county >> clerk for refusing to issue licenses to gay couples and the public >> explosion of the transgender movement, but one of the key figures in the >> culture wars says 2016 could well be a year of Americans pushing back >> against the liberal agenda. >> >> In June, years worth of political and legal battles found their way to >> the Supreme Court. By a 5-4 decision authored by Justice Anthony Kennedy, >> the court ruled that the equal protections offered in the Constitution >> ought to establish a right to same-sex marriage. >> >> The decision was not surprising given previous rulings by the same >> justices, but Liberty Counsel Chairman Mathew Staver told WND and Radio >> America it was disgraceful nonetheless. >> >> “Frankly, I don’t think it deserves any respect as the rule of law,” >> Staver said. “It’s just the opinion of five justices. However, some people >> are playing the games of masquerade and assuming this is what the >> Constitution says. That will have a culture-changing impact at every level.” >> >> Although he refuses to honor the court ruling, Staver knows it is a huge >> moment in the battle over American morality. He said the nation has arrived >> at a major cultural crossroads. >> >> “This is a culture clash of unprecedented proportions that we’ve now >> entered into. This will continue as we move into the new year,” he said. >> “It’s going to come up in every conceivable context private schools, >> churches, universities, colleges, you name it. Every institution, every >> person of faith will have to address this issue.” >> >> Staver would know. Weeks after the Supreme Court decision, he became >> counsel for Kim Davis, the clerk for Rowan County, Kentucky. Davis, a >> born-again Christian, refused to issue marriage licenses to homosexual >> couples, citing her freedom of conscience and free religious expression. >> The federal courts disagreed. >> >> “Two months after this 5-4 opinion, the first Christian went to jail for >> her sincerely held religious beliefs,” Staver said. “Although she was the >> first, she certainly won’t be the last. It will not involve only public >> employees or public elected officials but certainly the private sector as >> well.” >> >> Staver said the entire Davis saga could easily have been avoided, but the >> Democratic governor refused to take action to protect the rights of >> conscience. >> >> “There was no accommodation that was given by the former governor, Steven >> Beshear, who is no longer in office. He refused to accommodate her so she >> made her own accommodation. When she returned to work, she refused to >> violate her conscience, so she removed her name and title from the >> license,” Staver said. >> >> *Listen to the WND/Radio America interview with Mathew Staver:* >> >> Beshear was replaced by tea-party Republican Matt Bevin, who scored a >> large upset victory over Democrat Jack Conway. >> >> "He became elected, in large part, because of the marriage issue and Kim >> Davis," Staver said. "He took the side of natural marriage and supports Kim >> Davis. He's now been sworn into office, and he's already [issued] an >> executive order to protect the religious freedom of Kim Davis and other >> clerks like her." >> >> On Dec. 23, Bevin ordered the removal of clerks' names from marriage >> licenses throughout the commonwealth, the very same decision Davis made >> unilaterally earlier in the year. >> >> Staver said the story of Gov. Bevin ought to be a lesson to national >> candidates as well. >> >> "The candidates will have to address this issue. The voters will require >> that they address this issue," said Staver, who believes pushing back is a >> winning issue for the GOP. >> >> "The more and more the issue of same-sex marriage and the radical, >> so-called LGBT agenda moves forward, the more people will see how >> intolerant it is, how coercive it is," Staver said. "Kim Davis is just >> Exhibit A in that situation. I think most people will say, 'This is not the >> kind of America we want to live in. This is not what we bargained for,' and >> they're going to push back." >> >> Staver also believes the reputation of the nation's courts is in peril. >> He said an upcoming ruling in high-profile abortion cases will be critical >> to how Americans view the courts. >> >> "I think it's pushing itself into the realm of illegitimacy," he said. "I >> think the same-sex marriage case pushed it across the line. I think if it >> goes the wrong way on the abortion or the contraception and the >> abortion-inducing drug mandate, I think that will finish off this court and >> people will just simply say, 'We're not going to obey people who just >> invent the law as they go.'" >> >> As the gay marriage debate reached a critical moment at the Supreme >> Court, the transgender movement also emerged much more publicly in 2015, >> led by Olympic decathlon champion Bruce Jenner announcing he identified as >> a woman named Caitlyn. Multiple television programs emerged >> <http://dateline.radioamerica.org/?p=15655> to highlight the stories of >> Jenner and others. >> >> "It is part of their whole movement to bring out this bizarre 'I think, >> therefore I am' concept," Staver said. "We always saw that in philosophy, >> but now they're actually trying to make that a reality, that if you think >> you're a woman then you ought to be legally recognized and treated as a >> woman? It's absolutely absurd." >> >> Staver said it doesn't take a deep faith to understand the deep flaws in >> embracing the movement. >> >> "You cannot get used to something that pushes in your face and is a >> direct collision with your sincerely held religious beliefs and, frankly, >> objective, observable reality," he said. >> >> Staver admits 2015 was a difficult year for cultural conservatives, but >> he said there is much more reason for hope than despair. >> >> "We haven't even begun to see this battle," Staver said. "This battle is >> far from over, and, for me, I ultimately believe we will win this battle >> going forward." >> >> URL to article: >> *http://www.wnd.com/2015/12/many-more-u-s-christians-headed-to-jail-in-2016/ >> <http://www.wnd.com/2015/12/many-more-u-s-christians-headed-to-jail-in-2016/>* >> >> >> __._,_.___ >> ------------------------------ >> Posted by: "Beowulf" <[email protected]> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> Visit Your Group >> <https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/grendelreport/info;_ylc=X3oDMTJmYjNuOGYyBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIwMTk0ODA2BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTMyMzY2NwRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN0aW1lAzE0NTExNDYxNzk-> >> >> >> [image: Yahoo! 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