I cannot hold my tongue on Pyret – why not Dylan? Pyret breaks no new ground, and does not have as good a language designer as Dave Moon. It's macro system can be trivially used to add the test-ish stuff that Pyret puts in its core language.
Dylan remains the best language I've seen that never got traction. —S On Tue, Jul 7, 2020 at 4:41 AM Ken Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote: > Hey, Daniel. > > Thanks for the +1, as the kids today say! > > Yeah, what we developers deal with must somehow be avoided until the > students have felt the thrill of programming, if they will. This programme > will not be for everyone. But for those who light up as much over > algorithms as they do the music, *then* we can let them see a two > thousand line Clojure backtrace on every error. Grrrr. :) > > I like the section contrasting Pyret with other languages that are > considered clean syntactically. Pyret makes them look like Java. :) We devs > put up with such garbage. One reason I want Clojure or CL for this is > because the macros will make it easy to deliver a super friendly yet > powerful new music DSL. > > Looking at Pyret also reminded me of Logo, another super clean yet > powerful language aimed at noobs of any age. > > Thx for the Pyret pointer! > > -hk > > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 11:23 PM Daniel Herring <dherr...@tentpost.com> > wrote: > >> Hi Ken, >> >> I think music is a great way to engage a wider audience of potential >> developers. It has a wider appeal and lower barrier to entry than many >> other programming activities. >> >> Having seen kids fire up a web browser to do "Scratch programming", I'm >> convinced that a web-based platform is the most accessible. People can >> use almost any computer to create accounts, create projects, and >> share/publish projects. Only seasoned developers are comfortable with >> the >> concept of "install this editor, compiler, and Git". :) >> >> Here's an interesting language, though it may not have a audio library >> yet. >> >> https://www.pyret.org/ >> >> - Daniel >> >> >> >> On Mon, 6 Jul 2020, Ken Tilton wrote: >> >> > "actively under development"! Music (sorry) to my ears! The Lisp and >> ADD genes must overlap seriously. I started one of the videos. Really nice >> live coding. >> > >> > I'll make sure our code camp grad school uses CL. >> > >> > Thx! >> > >> > -hk >> > >> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 8:11 PM Andy Peterson <andy.ar...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > https://github.com/byulparan/cl-collider "A SuperCollider client >> for CommonLisp" >> > >> > Never tried this but I've been following it for a few years and it is >> actively under development. >> > >> > Andy >> > >> > On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 13:57, Ken Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > Thanks for the seconding motion! But part of the plan is high >> accessibility, and low cost. I just noticed the pricing on OpusModus, bit >> of a showstopper there. >> > >> > We would use Clojure Overtone https://overtone.github.io/ but that >> sits atop Supercollider, not sure if that would make installation a PITA. >> Ideally we would have sth built atop Web Audio, but >> > then we really are super low-level. I think! Have to look into that. >> > >> > We would want to hook the students with solid music before taking them >> down to the basics, so existing effects etc would be great to have, but >> again, this is about coding in general, not music >> > generation. That is just the hook. >> > >> > Thx again! If some campers get more turned on by music than coding that >> will be a great next step. >> > >> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 1:43 PM d...@refined-audiometrics.com < >> d...@refined-audiometrics.com> wrote: >> > >> > Yes, I was also going to suggest OpusModus. I see little purpose >> in reinventing any portion of what they have done. >> > >> > I have been a user for about 2 years now. It seems to be the defacto >> replacement for an earlier product done in Lispworks, from Italy, called >> Symbolic Composer. OpusModus is very good, and >> > getting better every day. They just implemented live MIDI recording in >> the latest version. >> > >> > - David McClain >> > Refined Audiometrics Laboratory, LLC >> > Tucson, AZ, USA >> > refined-audiometrics.com >> > >> > >> > On Jul 6, 2020, at 8:11 AM, Ken Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > >> > Sounds great, I will keep it in mind if we loosen the web/mobile-native >> constraint. Or maybe as a direction for campers who take off -- no need >> then to fret over platform, >> > power will matter. >> > >> > Thx! >> > >> > >> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:54 AM Stonewall Ballard <sto...@sb.org> >> wrote: >> > Ken, >> > >> > Are you familiar with Opusmodus? >> > <http://opusmodus.com> >> > >> > It’s written in Clozure ccl, and besides providing an incredible array >> of music manipulation functions and structures, it’s got a beautiful window >> system. Mac only. >> > >> > Your idea of using music as a hook to learn Lisp sounds plausible. Good >> Luck! >> > >> > - Stoney >> > ————Stonewall Ballard sto...@sb.org http://stoney.sb.org >> > >> > On Monday, July 6 at 8:15:31 AM, Ken Tilton (kentil...@gmail.com) >> wrote: >> > >> > So I got to thinking about creating an approachable pathway to IT >> careers for anyone really, but in the spirit of today one focused on >> creating career opportunities for >> > African Americans. >> > >> > The idea would be a code camp developed around algorithmic generation >> of music. I know nothing about music theory, except that there is prolly >> enough there to introduce >> > most if not all fundamental programming concepts. >> > >> > For those campers that accidentally get hooked on programming itself, >> which is how many of us ended up in IT careers, away they go! >> > >> > The idea is to: >> > * use music as the hook; >> > * defer as long as possible the annoying things about programming (I >> am looking at you, node.js); >> > * part of that ^^^ will be using a powerful language with the >> parentheses in the right place, prolly ClojureScript since that could run >> where JS runs; >> > * keep programming as the focus, as tempting as the music will be. >> Sonic Pi comes with all sorts of built-in sound capabilities, but we want >> to develop those in the >> > code camp; >> > * tailor the program to specific musical genres, to maximize the >> musical hook. >> > I am dropping this here since I know many Common Lispers have a strong >> musical bent. My questions are: >> > * Could we use CL instead? I do think this almost has to be a web >> app, perhaps even mobile. Hmmm, we could CL-ify CLJS with sufficent clever >> macrology. >> > * What do you think? Can a solid programming fundamentals course be >> expressed in music theory? Hint: HTTP is not a programming fundamental. >> > * If there is any interest, what would be a good place for an ongoing >> discussion? Google groups? >> > Ideas, comments, suggestions all welcome. >> > >> > -hk >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Kenneth Tilton >> > http://tiltontec.com/ >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Kenneth Tilton >> > http://tiltontec.com/ >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Kenneth Tilton >> > http://tiltontec.com/ >> > >> > > > > > -- > Kenneth Tilton > http://tiltontec.com/ >