I can't argue with that. My point was, if you're gonna use a fringe language (*), use a *good* fringe language.
(*) I don't think Julia is "fringe" any more. On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 5:45 AM Bob Cassels <bobcass...@netscape.net> wrote: > Hey Scott, > > Go with Julia. It’s enough like Dylan (multi-argument generic function > dispatch, expression-oriented, macros), but better in important ways > (better type system, package system, better compilation model, > cross-language integration). > > It has warts (kludgy, messy syntax), but mostly it has traction (active, > growing user community, increasing library support, libraries are cutting > edge). > > If you long for Dylan, Julia is where you want to be. It’s where the smart > cool kids are. > > Bob > > > > On Jul 7, 2020, at 8:24 AM, Scott McKay <swmc...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I cannot hold my tongue on Pyret – why not Dylan? Pyret breaks no new > ground, > and does not have as good a language designer as Dave Moon. It's macro > system > can be trivially used to add the test-ish stuff that Pyret puts in its > core language. > > Dylan remains the best language I've seen that never got traction. > > —S > > > On Tue, Jul 7, 2020 at 4:41 AM Ken Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hey, Daniel. >> >> Thanks for the +1, as the kids today say! >> >> Yeah, what we developers deal with must somehow be avoided until the >> students have felt the thrill of programming, if they will. This programme >> will not be for everyone. But for those who light up as much over >> algorithms as they do the music, *then* we can let them see a two >> thousand line Clojure backtrace on every error. Grrrr. :) >> >> I like the section contrasting Pyret with other languages that are >> considered clean syntactically. Pyret makes them look like Java. :) We devs >> put up with such garbage. One reason I want Clojure or CL for this is >> because the macros will make it easy to deliver a super friendly yet >> powerful new music DSL. >> >> Looking at Pyret also reminded me of Logo, another super clean yet >> powerful language aimed at noobs of any age. >> >> Thx for the Pyret pointer! >> >> -hk >> >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 11:23 PM Daniel Herring <dherr...@tentpost.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Ken, >>> >>> I think music is a great way to engage a wider audience of potential >>> developers. It has a wider appeal and lower barrier to entry than many >>> other programming activities. >>> >>> Having seen kids fire up a web browser to do "Scratch programming", I'm >>> convinced that a web-based platform is the most accessible. People can >>> use almost any computer to create accounts, create projects, and >>> share/publish projects. Only seasoned developers are comfortable with >>> the >>> concept of "install this editor, compiler, and Git". :) >>> >>> Here's an interesting language, though it may not have a audio library >>> yet. >>> >>> https://www.pyret.org/ >>> >>> - Daniel >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, 6 Jul 2020, Ken Tilton wrote: >>> >>> > "actively under development"! Music (sorry) to my ears! The Lisp and >>> ADD genes must overlap seriously. I started one of the videos. Really nice >>> live coding. >>> > >>> > I'll make sure our code camp grad school uses CL. >>> > >>> > Thx! >>> > >>> > -hk >>> > >>> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 8:11 PM Andy Peterson <andy.ar...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> > https://github.com/byulparan/cl-collider "A SuperCollider >>> client for CommonLisp" >>> > >>> > Never tried this but I've been following it for a few years and it is >>> actively under development. >>> > >>> > Andy >>> > >>> > On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 13:57, Ken Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> > Thanks for the seconding motion! But part of the plan is high >>> accessibility, and low cost. I just noticed the pricing on OpusModus, bit >>> of a showstopper there. >>> > >>> > We would use Clojure Overtone https://overtone.github.io/ but that >>> sits atop Supercollider, not sure if that would make installation a PITA. >>> Ideally we would have sth built atop Web Audio, but >>> > then we really are super low-level. I think! Have to look into that. >>> > >>> > We would want to hook the students with solid music before taking them >>> down to the basics, so existing effects etc would be great to have, but >>> again, this is about coding in general, not music >>> > generation. That is just the hook. >>> > >>> > Thx again! If some campers get more turned on by music than coding >>> that will be a great next step. >>> > >>> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 1:43 PM d...@refined-audiometrics.com < >>> d...@refined-audiometrics.com> wrote: >>> > >>> > Yes, I was also going to suggest OpusModus. I see little purpose >>> in reinventing any portion of what they have done. >>> > >>> > I have been a user for about 2 years now. It seems to be the defacto >>> replacement for an earlier product done in Lispworks, from Italy, called >>> Symbolic Composer. OpusModus is very good, and >>> > getting better every day. They just implemented live MIDI recording in >>> the latest version. >>> > >>> > - David McClain >>> > Refined Audiometrics Laboratory, LLC >>> > Tucson, AZ, USA >>> > refined-audiometrics.com >>> > >>> > >>> > On Jul 6, 2020, at 8:11 AM, Ken Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > Sounds great, I will keep it in mind if we loosen the >>> web/mobile-native constraint. Or maybe as a direction for campers who take >>> off -- no need then to fret over platform, >>> > power will matter. >>> > >>> > Thx! >>> > >>> > >>> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:54 AM Stonewall Ballard <sto...@sb.org> >>> wrote: >>> > Ken, >>> > >>> > Are you familiar with Opusmodus? >>> > <http://opusmodus.com> >>> > >>> > It’s written in Clozure ccl, and besides providing an incredible array >>> of music manipulation functions and structures, it’s got a beautiful window >>> system. Mac only. >>> > >>> > Your idea of using music as a hook to learn Lisp sounds plausible. >>> Good Luck! >>> > >>> > - Stoney >>> > ————Stonewall Ballard sto...@sb.org http://stoney.sb.org >>> > >>> > On Monday, July 6 at 8:15:31 AM, Ken Tilton (kentil...@gmail.com) >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > So I got to thinking about creating an approachable pathway to IT >>> careers for anyone really, but in the spirit of today one focused on >>> creating career opportunities for >>> > African Americans. >>> > >>> > The idea would be a code camp developed around algorithmic generation >>> of music. I know nothing about music theory, except that there is prolly >>> enough there to introduce >>> > most if not all fundamental programming concepts. >>> > >>> > For those campers that accidentally get hooked on programming itself, >>> which is how many of us ended up in IT careers, away they go! >>> > >>> > The idea is to: >>> > * use music as the hook; >>> > * defer as long as possible the annoying things about programming (I >>> am looking at you, node.js); >>> > * part of that ^^^ will be using a powerful language with the >>> parentheses in the right place, prolly ClojureScript since that could run >>> where JS runs; >>> > * keep programming as the focus, as tempting as the music will be. >>> Sonic Pi comes with all sorts of built-in sound capabilities, but we want >>> to develop those in the >>> > code camp; >>> > * tailor the program to specific musical genres, to maximize the >>> musical hook. >>> > I am dropping this here since I know many Common Lispers have a strong >>> musical bent. My questions are: >>> > * Could we use CL instead? I do think this almost has to be a web >>> app, perhaps even mobile. Hmmm, we could CL-ify CLJS with sufficent clever >>> macrology. >>> > * What do you think? Can a solid programming fundamentals course be >>> expressed in music theory? Hint: HTTP is not a programming fundamental. >>> > * If there is any interest, what would be a good place for an >>> ongoing discussion? Google groups? >>> > Ideas, comments, suggestions all welcome. >>> > >>> > -hk >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Kenneth Tilton >>> > http://tiltontec.com/ >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Kenneth Tilton >>> > http://tiltontec.com/ >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Kenneth Tilton >>> > http://tiltontec.com/ >>> > >>> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Kenneth Tilton >> http://tiltontec.com/ >> > >
