Hey Scott, Go with Julia. It’s enough like Dylan (multi-argument generic function dispatch, expression-oriented, macros), but better in important ways (better type system, package system, better compilation model, cross-language integration).
It has warts (kludgy, messy syntax), but mostly it has traction (active, growing user community, increasing library support, libraries are cutting edge). If you long for Dylan, Julia is where you want to be. It’s where the smart cool kids are. Bob > On Jul 7, 2020, at 8:24 AM, Scott McKay <swmc...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I cannot hold my tongue on Pyret – why not Dylan? Pyret breaks no new ground, > and does not have as good a language designer as Dave Moon. It's macro system > can be trivially used to add the test-ish stuff that Pyret puts in its core > language. > > Dylan remains the best language I've seen that never got traction. > > —S > > > On Tue, Jul 7, 2020 at 4:41 AM Ken Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com > <mailto:kentil...@gmail.com>> wrote: > Hey, Daniel. > > Thanks for the +1, as the kids today say! > > Yeah, what we developers deal with must somehow be avoided until the students > have felt the thrill of programming, if they will. This programme will not be > for everyone. But for those who light up as much over algorithms as they do > the music, then we can let them see a two thousand line Clojure backtrace on > every error. Grrrr. :) > > I like the section contrasting Pyret with other languages that are considered > clean syntactically. Pyret makes them look like Java. :) We devs put up with > such garbage. One reason I want Clojure or CL for this is because the macros > will make it easy to deliver a super friendly yet powerful new music DSL. > > Looking at Pyret also reminded me of Logo, another super clean yet powerful > language aimed at noobs of any age. > > Thx for the Pyret pointer! > > -hk > > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 11:23 PM Daniel Herring <dherr...@tentpost.com > <mailto:dherr...@tentpost.com>> wrote: > Hi Ken, > > I think music is a great way to engage a wider audience of potential > developers. It has a wider appeal and lower barrier to entry than many > other programming activities. > > Having seen kids fire up a web browser to do "Scratch programming", I'm > convinced that a web-based platform is the most accessible. People can > use almost any computer to create accounts, create projects, and > share/publish projects. Only seasoned developers are comfortable with the > concept of "install this editor, compiler, and Git". :) > > Here's an interesting language, though it may not have a audio library > yet. > > https://www.pyret.org/ <https://www.pyret.org/> > > - Daniel > > > > On Mon, 6 Jul 2020, Ken Tilton wrote: > > > "actively under development"! Music (sorry) to my ears! The Lisp and ADD > > genes must overlap seriously. I started one of the videos. Really nice live > > coding. > > > > I'll make sure our code camp grad school uses CL. > > > > Thx! > > > > -hk > > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 8:11 PM Andy Peterson <andy.ar...@gmail.com > > <mailto:andy.ar...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > https://github.com/byulparan/cl-collider > > <https://github.com/byulparan/cl-collider> "A SuperCollider client for > > CommonLisp" > > > > Never tried this but I've been following it for a few years and it is > > actively under development. > > > > Andy > > > > On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 13:57, Ken Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com > > <mailto:kentil...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > Thanks for the seconding motion! But part of the plan is high > > accessibility, and low cost. I just noticed the pricing on OpusModus, bit > > of a showstopper there. > > > > We would use Clojure Overtone https://overtone.github.io/ > > <https://overtone.github.io/> but that sits atop Supercollider, not sure if > > that would make installation a PITA. Ideally we would have sth built atop > > Web Audio, but > > then we really are super low-level. I think! Have to look into that. > > > > We would want to hook the students with solid music before taking them down > > to the basics, so existing effects etc would be great to have, but again, > > this is about coding in general, not music > > generation. That is just the hook. > > > > Thx again! If some campers get more turned on by music than coding that > > will be a great next step. > > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 1:43 PM d...@refined-audiometrics.com > > <mailto:d...@refined-audiometrics.com> <d...@refined-audiometrics.com > > <mailto:d...@refined-audiometrics.com>> wrote: > > > > Yes, I was also going to suggest OpusModus. I see little purpose in > > reinventing any portion of what they have done. > > > > I have been a user for about 2 years now. It seems to be the defacto > > replacement for an earlier product done in Lispworks, from Italy, called > > Symbolic Composer. OpusModus is very good, and > > getting better every day. They just implemented live MIDI recording in the > > latest version. > > > > - David McClain > > Refined Audiometrics Laboratory, LLC > > Tucson, AZ, USA > > refined-audiometrics.com <http://refined-audiometrics.com/> > > > > > > On Jul 6, 2020, at 8:11 AM, Ken Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com > > <mailto:kentil...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > Sounds great, I will keep it in mind if we loosen the web/mobile-native > > constraint. Or maybe as a direction for campers who take off -- no need > > then to fret over platform, > > power will matter. > > > > Thx! > > > > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:54 AM Stonewall Ballard <sto...@sb.org > > <mailto:sto...@sb.org>> wrote: > > Ken, > > > > Are you familiar with Opusmodus? > > <http://opusmodus.com <http://opusmodus.com/>> > > > > It’s written in Clozure ccl, and besides providing an incredible array of > > music manipulation functions and structures, it’s got a beautiful window > > system. Mac only. > > > > Your idea of using music as a hook to learn Lisp sounds plausible. Good > > Luck! > > > > - Stoney > > ————Stonewall Ballard sto...@sb.org <mailto:sto...@sb.org> > > http://stoney.sb.org <http://stoney.sb.org/> > > > > On Monday, July 6 at 8:15:31 AM, Ken Tilton (kentil...@gmail.com > > <mailto:kentil...@gmail.com>) wrote: > > > > So I got to thinking about creating an approachable pathway to IT careers > > for anyone really, but in the spirit of today one focused on creating > > career opportunities for > > African Americans. > > > > The idea would be a code camp developed around algorithmic generation of > > music. I know nothing about music theory, except that there is prolly > > enough there to introduce > > most if not all fundamental programming concepts. > > > > For those campers that accidentally get hooked on programming itself, which > > is how many of us ended up in IT careers, away they go! > > > > The idea is to: > > * use music as the hook; > > * defer as long as possible the annoying things about programming (I am > > looking at you, node.js); > > * part of that ^^^ will be using a powerful language with the parentheses > > in the right place, prolly ClojureScript since that could run where JS runs; > > * keep programming as the focus, as tempting as the music will be. Sonic > > Pi comes with all sorts of built-in sound capabilities, but we want to > > develop those in the > > code camp; > > * tailor the program to specific musical genres, to maximize the musical > > hook. > > I am dropping this here since I know many Common Lispers have a strong > > musical bent. My questions are: > > * Could we use CL instead? I do think this almost has to be a web app, > > perhaps even mobile. Hmmm, we could CL-ify CLJS with sufficent clever > > macrology. > > * What do you think? Can a solid programming fundamentals course be > > expressed in music theory? Hint: HTTP is not a programming fundamental. > > * If there is any interest, what would be a good place for an ongoing > > discussion? Google groups? > > Ideas, comments, suggestions all welcome. > > > > -hk > > > > > > > > -- > > Kenneth Tilton > > http://tiltontec.com/ <http://tiltontec.com/> > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Kenneth Tilton > > http://tiltontec.com/ <http://tiltontec.com/> > > > > > > > > -- > > Kenneth Tilton > > http://tiltontec.com/ <http://tiltontec.com/> > > > > > > > -- > Kenneth Tilton > http://tiltontec.com/ <http://tiltontec.com/>
