Rust is C++ done right. At this point, I have several stacks based on what I'm doing: * Web back end – Python/Django * Web front end – Javascript/React * ML/AI (as a "client") – Python * Systems programming – Rust
On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 9:57 AM Marco Antoniotti <marco.antonio...@unimib.it> wrote: > I second what Scott said. Julia is not "fringe" and I am thinking that - > too late probably - that is a Very Good Thing (tm) > > Apart from that, Rust was described in "Nature". You cannot get more > mainstream than that. > > Ciao > > Marco > > PS Me, I am checking out PL/I > > On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 8:52 AM Scott McKay <swmc...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I can't argue with that. My point was, if you're gonna use a fringe >> language (*), >> use a *good* fringe language. >> >> (*) I don't think Julia is "fringe" any more. >> >> On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 5:45 AM Bob Cassels <bobcass...@netscape.net> >> wrote: >> >>> Hey Scott, >>> >>> Go with Julia. It’s enough like Dylan (multi-argument generic function >>> dispatch, expression-oriented, macros), but better in important ways >>> (better type system, package system, better compilation model, >>> cross-language integration). >>> >>> It has warts (kludgy, messy syntax), but mostly it has traction (active, >>> growing user community, increasing library support, libraries are cutting >>> edge). >>> >>> If you long for Dylan, Julia is where you want to be. It’s where the >>> smart cool kids are. >>> >>> Bob >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jul 7, 2020, at 8:24 AM, Scott McKay <swmc...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> I cannot hold my tongue on Pyret – why not Dylan? Pyret breaks no new >>> ground, >>> and does not have as good a language designer as Dave Moon. It's macro >>> system >>> can be trivially used to add the test-ish stuff that Pyret puts in its >>> core language. >>> >>> Dylan remains the best language I've seen that never got traction. >>> >>> —S >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 7, 2020 at 4:41 AM Ken Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Hey, Daniel. >>>> >>>> Thanks for the +1, as the kids today say! >>>> >>>> Yeah, what we developers deal with must somehow be avoided until the >>>> students have felt the thrill of programming, if they will. This programme >>>> will not be for everyone. But for those who light up as much over >>>> algorithms as they do the music, *then* we can let them see a two >>>> thousand line Clojure backtrace on every error. Grrrr. :) >>>> >>>> I like the section contrasting Pyret with other languages that are >>>> considered clean syntactically. Pyret makes them look like Java. :) We devs >>>> put up with such garbage. One reason I want Clojure or CL for this is >>>> because the macros will make it easy to deliver a super friendly yet >>>> powerful new music DSL. >>>> >>>> Looking at Pyret also reminded me of Logo, another super clean yet >>>> powerful language aimed at noobs of any age. >>>> >>>> Thx for the Pyret pointer! >>>> >>>> -hk >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 11:23 PM Daniel Herring <dherr...@tentpost.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Ken, >>>>> >>>>> I think music is a great way to engage a wider audience of potential >>>>> developers. It has a wider appeal and lower barrier to entry than >>>>> many >>>>> other programming activities. >>>>> >>>>> Having seen kids fire up a web browser to do "Scratch programming", >>>>> I'm >>>>> convinced that a web-based platform is the most accessible. People >>>>> can >>>>> use almost any computer to create accounts, create projects, and >>>>> share/publish projects. Only seasoned developers are comfortable with >>>>> the >>>>> concept of "install this editor, compiler, and Git". :) >>>>> >>>>> Here's an interesting language, though it may not have a audio library >>>>> yet. >>>>> >>>>> https://www.pyret.org/ >>>>> >>>>> - Daniel >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, 6 Jul 2020, Ken Tilton wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > "actively under development"! Music (sorry) to my ears! The Lisp and >>>>> ADD genes must overlap seriously. I started one of the videos. Really nice >>>>> live coding. >>>>> > >>>>> > I'll make sure our code camp grad school uses CL. >>>>> > >>>>> > Thx! >>>>> > >>>>> > -hk >>>>> > >>>>> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 8:11 PM Andy Peterson <andy.ar...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> > https://github.com/byulparan/cl-collider "A SuperCollider >>>>> client for CommonLisp" >>>>> > >>>>> > Never tried this but I've been following it for a few years and it >>>>> is actively under development. >>>>> > >>>>> > Andy >>>>> > >>>>> > On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 13:57, Ken Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> > Thanks for the seconding motion! But part of the plan is high >>>>> accessibility, and low cost. I just noticed the pricing on OpusModus, bit >>>>> of a showstopper there. >>>>> > >>>>> > We would use Clojure Overtone https://overtone.github.io/ but that >>>>> sits atop Supercollider, not sure if that would make installation a PITA. >>>>> Ideally we would have sth built atop Web Audio, but >>>>> > then we really are super low-level. I think! Have to look into that. >>>>> > >>>>> > We would want to hook the students with solid music before taking >>>>> them down to the basics, so existing effects etc would be great to have, >>>>> but again, this is about coding in general, not music >>>>> > generation. That is just the hook. >>>>> > >>>>> > Thx again! If some campers get more turned on by music than coding >>>>> that will be a great next step. >>>>> > >>>>> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 1:43 PM d...@refined-audiometrics.com < >>>>> d...@refined-audiometrics.com> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > Yes, I was also going to suggest OpusModus. I see little >>>>> purpose in reinventing any portion of what they have done. >>>>> > >>>>> > I have been a user for about 2 years now. It seems to be the defacto >>>>> replacement for an earlier product done in Lispworks, from Italy, called >>>>> Symbolic Composer. OpusModus is very good, and >>>>> > getting better every day. They just implemented live MIDI recording >>>>> in the latest version. >>>>> > >>>>> > - David McClain >>>>> > Refined Audiometrics Laboratory, LLC >>>>> > Tucson, AZ, USA >>>>> > refined-audiometrics.com >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > On Jul 6, 2020, at 8:11 AM, Ken Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > Sounds great, I will keep it in mind if we loosen the >>>>> web/mobile-native constraint. Or maybe as a direction for campers who take >>>>> off -- no need then to fret over platform, >>>>> > power will matter. >>>>> > >>>>> > Thx! >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:54 AM Stonewall Ballard <sto...@sb.org> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> > Ken, >>>>> > >>>>> > Are you familiar with Opusmodus? >>>>> > <http://opusmodus.com> >>>>> > >>>>> > It’s written in Clozure ccl, and besides providing an incredible >>>>> array of music manipulation functions and structures, it’s got a beautiful >>>>> window system. Mac only. >>>>> > >>>>> > Your idea of using music as a hook to learn Lisp sounds plausible. >>>>> Good Luck! >>>>> > >>>>> > - Stoney >>>>> > ————Stonewall Ballard sto...@sb.org http://stoney.sb.org >>>>> > >>>>> > On Monday, July 6 at 8:15:31 AM, Ken Tilton (kentil...@gmail.com) >>>>> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > So I got to thinking about creating an approachable pathway to IT >>>>> careers for anyone really, but in the spirit of today one focused on >>>>> creating career opportunities for >>>>> > African Americans. >>>>> > >>>>> > The idea would be a code camp developed around algorithmic >>>>> generation of music. I know nothing about music theory, except that there >>>>> is prolly enough there to introduce >>>>> > most if not all fundamental programming concepts. >>>>> > >>>>> > For those campers that accidentally get hooked on programming >>>>> itself, which is how many of us ended up in IT careers, away they go! >>>>> > >>>>> > The idea is to: >>>>> > * use music as the hook; >>>>> > * defer as long as possible the annoying things about programming >>>>> (I am looking at you, node.js); >>>>> > * part of that ^^^ will be using a powerful language with the >>>>> parentheses in the right place, prolly ClojureScript since that could run >>>>> where JS runs; >>>>> > * keep programming as the focus, as tempting as the music will be. >>>>> Sonic Pi comes with all sorts of built-in sound capabilities, but we want >>>>> to develop those in the >>>>> > code camp; >>>>> > * tailor the program to specific musical genres, to maximize the >>>>> musical hook. >>>>> > I am dropping this here since I know many Common Lispers have a >>>>> strong musical bent. My questions are: >>>>> > * Could we use CL instead? I do think this almost has to be a web >>>>> app, perhaps even mobile. Hmmm, we could CL-ify CLJS with sufficent clever >>>>> macrology. >>>>> > * What do you think? Can a solid programming fundamentals course >>>>> be expressed in music theory? Hint: HTTP is not a programming fundamental. >>>>> > * If there is any interest, what would be a good place for an >>>>> ongoing discussion? Google groups? >>>>> > Ideas, comments, suggestions all welcome. >>>>> > >>>>> > -hk >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > -- >>>>> > Kenneth Tilton >>>>> > http://tiltontec.com/ >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > -- >>>>> > Kenneth Tilton >>>>> > http://tiltontec.com/ >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > -- >>>>> > Kenneth Tilton >>>>> > http://tiltontec.com/ >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Kenneth Tilton >>>> http://tiltontec.com/ >>>> >>> >>> > > -- > Marco Antoniotti, Associate Professor tel. +39 - 02 64 48 79 01 > DISCo, Università Milano Bicocca U14 2043 http://bimib.disco.unimib.it > Viale Sarca 336 > I-20126 Milan (MI) ITALY >