I second what Scott said. Julia is not "fringe" and I am thinking that - too late probably - that is a Very Good Thing (tm)
Apart from that, Rust was described in "Nature". You cannot get more mainstream than that. Ciao Marco PS Me, I am checking out PL/I On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 8:52 AM Scott McKay <swmc...@gmail.com> wrote: > I can't argue with that. My point was, if you're gonna use a fringe > language (*), > use a *good* fringe language. > > (*) I don't think Julia is "fringe" any more. > > On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 5:45 AM Bob Cassels <bobcass...@netscape.net> > wrote: > >> Hey Scott, >> >> Go with Julia. It’s enough like Dylan (multi-argument generic function >> dispatch, expression-oriented, macros), but better in important ways >> (better type system, package system, better compilation model, >> cross-language integration). >> >> It has warts (kludgy, messy syntax), but mostly it has traction (active, >> growing user community, increasing library support, libraries are cutting >> edge). >> >> If you long for Dylan, Julia is where you want to be. It’s where the >> smart cool kids are. >> >> Bob >> >> >> >> On Jul 7, 2020, at 8:24 AM, Scott McKay <swmc...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> I cannot hold my tongue on Pyret – why not Dylan? Pyret breaks no new >> ground, >> and does not have as good a language designer as Dave Moon. It's macro >> system >> can be trivially used to add the test-ish stuff that Pyret puts in its >> core language. >> >> Dylan remains the best language I've seen that never got traction. >> >> —S >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 7, 2020 at 4:41 AM Ken Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Hey, Daniel. >>> >>> Thanks for the +1, as the kids today say! >>> >>> Yeah, what we developers deal with must somehow be avoided until the >>> students have felt the thrill of programming, if they will. This programme >>> will not be for everyone. But for those who light up as much over >>> algorithms as they do the music, *then* we can let them see a two >>> thousand line Clojure backtrace on every error. Grrrr. :) >>> >>> I like the section contrasting Pyret with other languages that are >>> considered clean syntactically. Pyret makes them look like Java. :) We devs >>> put up with such garbage. One reason I want Clojure or CL for this is >>> because the macros will make it easy to deliver a super friendly yet >>> powerful new music DSL. >>> >>> Looking at Pyret also reminded me of Logo, another super clean yet >>> powerful language aimed at noobs of any age. >>> >>> Thx for the Pyret pointer! >>> >>> -hk >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 11:23 PM Daniel Herring <dherr...@tentpost.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Ken, >>>> >>>> I think music is a great way to engage a wider audience of potential >>>> developers. It has a wider appeal and lower barrier to entry than many >>>> other programming activities. >>>> >>>> Having seen kids fire up a web browser to do "Scratch programming", I'm >>>> convinced that a web-based platform is the most accessible. People can >>>> use almost any computer to create accounts, create projects, and >>>> share/publish projects. Only seasoned developers are comfortable with >>>> the >>>> concept of "install this editor, compiler, and Git". :) >>>> >>>> Here's an interesting language, though it may not have a audio library >>>> yet. >>>> >>>> https://www.pyret.org/ >>>> >>>> - Daniel >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, 6 Jul 2020, Ken Tilton wrote: >>>> >>>> > "actively under development"! Music (sorry) to my ears! The Lisp and >>>> ADD genes must overlap seriously. I started one of the videos. Really nice >>>> live coding. >>>> > >>>> > I'll make sure our code camp grad school uses CL. >>>> > >>>> > Thx! >>>> > >>>> > -hk >>>> > >>>> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 8:11 PM Andy Peterson <andy.ar...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> > https://github.com/byulparan/cl-collider "A SuperCollider >>>> client for CommonLisp" >>>> > >>>> > Never tried this but I've been following it for a few years and it is >>>> actively under development. >>>> > >>>> > Andy >>>> > >>>> > On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 13:57, Ken Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> > Thanks for the seconding motion! But part of the plan is high >>>> accessibility, and low cost. I just noticed the pricing on OpusModus, bit >>>> of a showstopper there. >>>> > >>>> > We would use Clojure Overtone https://overtone.github.io/ but that >>>> sits atop Supercollider, not sure if that would make installation a PITA. >>>> Ideally we would have sth built atop Web Audio, but >>>> > then we really are super low-level. I think! Have to look into that. >>>> > >>>> > We would want to hook the students with solid music before taking >>>> them down to the basics, so existing effects etc would be great to have, >>>> but again, this is about coding in general, not music >>>> > generation. That is just the hook. >>>> > >>>> > Thx again! If some campers get more turned on by music than coding >>>> that will be a great next step. >>>> > >>>> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 1:43 PM d...@refined-audiometrics.com < >>>> d...@refined-audiometrics.com> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Yes, I was also going to suggest OpusModus. I see little >>>> purpose in reinventing any portion of what they have done. >>>> > >>>> > I have been a user for about 2 years now. It seems to be the defacto >>>> replacement for an earlier product done in Lispworks, from Italy, called >>>> Symbolic Composer. OpusModus is very good, and >>>> > getting better every day. They just implemented live MIDI recording >>>> in the latest version. >>>> > >>>> > - David McClain >>>> > Refined Audiometrics Laboratory, LLC >>>> > Tucson, AZ, USA >>>> > refined-audiometrics.com >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On Jul 6, 2020, at 8:11 AM, Ken Tilton <kentil...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Sounds great, I will keep it in mind if we loosen the >>>> web/mobile-native constraint. Or maybe as a direction for campers who take >>>> off -- no need then to fret over platform, >>>> > power will matter. >>>> > >>>> > Thx! >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 10:54 AM Stonewall Ballard <sto...@sb.org> >>>> wrote: >>>> > Ken, >>>> > >>>> > Are you familiar with Opusmodus? >>>> > <http://opusmodus.com> >>>> > >>>> > It’s written in Clozure ccl, and besides providing an incredible >>>> array of music manipulation functions and structures, it’s got a beautiful >>>> window system. Mac only. >>>> > >>>> > Your idea of using music as a hook to learn Lisp sounds plausible. >>>> Good Luck! >>>> > >>>> > - Stoney >>>> > ————Stonewall Ballard sto...@sb.org http://stoney.sb.org >>>> > >>>> > On Monday, July 6 at 8:15:31 AM, Ken Tilton (kentil...@gmail.com) >>>> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > So I got to thinking about creating an approachable pathway to IT >>>> careers for anyone really, but in the spirit of today one focused on >>>> creating career opportunities for >>>> > African Americans. >>>> > >>>> > The idea would be a code camp developed around algorithmic generation >>>> of music. I know nothing about music theory, except that there is prolly >>>> enough there to introduce >>>> > most if not all fundamental programming concepts. >>>> > >>>> > For those campers that accidentally get hooked on programming itself, >>>> which is how many of us ended up in IT careers, away they go! >>>> > >>>> > The idea is to: >>>> > * use music as the hook; >>>> > * defer as long as possible the annoying things about programming >>>> (I am looking at you, node.js); >>>> > * part of that ^^^ will be using a powerful language with the >>>> parentheses in the right place, prolly ClojureScript since that could run >>>> where JS runs; >>>> > * keep programming as the focus, as tempting as the music will be. >>>> Sonic Pi comes with all sorts of built-in sound capabilities, but we want >>>> to develop those in the >>>> > code camp; >>>> > * tailor the program to specific musical genres, to maximize the >>>> musical hook. >>>> > I am dropping this here since I know many Common Lispers have a >>>> strong musical bent. My questions are: >>>> > * Could we use CL instead? I do think this almost has to be a web >>>> app, perhaps even mobile. Hmmm, we could CL-ify CLJS with sufficent clever >>>> macrology. >>>> > * What do you think? Can a solid programming fundamentals course be >>>> expressed in music theory? Hint: HTTP is not a programming fundamental. >>>> > * If there is any interest, what would be a good place for an >>>> ongoing discussion? Google groups? >>>> > Ideas, comments, suggestions all welcome. >>>> > >>>> > -hk >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > Kenneth Tilton >>>> > http://tiltontec.com/ >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > Kenneth Tilton >>>> > http://tiltontec.com/ >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > Kenneth Tilton >>>> > http://tiltontec.com/ >>>> > >>>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kenneth Tilton >>> http://tiltontec.com/ >>> >> >> -- Marco Antoniotti, Associate Professor tel. +39 - 02 64 48 79 01 DISCo, Università Milano Bicocca U14 2043 http://bimib.disco.unimib.it Viale Sarca 336 I-20126 Milan (MI) ITALY
