At 03:12 PM 8/10/2006 -0400, Ed Leafe wrote:
In any event, this is one of the core differences between Christianity
and other religions: you don't do good works to *get*
saved, you do good works *because* you are saved (i.e. you *want* to
please God because you recognize what He's done for you).
Very good explanation, Charlie, but I wonder how many truly understood
what you just said there.
So good works are unimportant unless you're doing them for God?
IOW,
if you're doing them because you have a conscience, and not because
you're trying to please God, those acts don't matter?
I hope that's not what you're saying, because that's pretty screwy.
Note: the below was written before I saw some of the other posts/responses.
I went and skimmed some of them before I sent this. I'm leaving my verbose
stuff here, but I added more at the end to address some of the other posts.
---------------------
I think you may be missing the context. When Kris mentioned Ghandi and
Mother Theresa, I took that as implying she doesn't think it's fair for
'good' people to go to hell. My reply was that the Bible teaches that good
works do not grant you salvation. But what I said above is that Christians
(true Christians) will do good works as a result of being saved.
So we were not discussing the value of 'good works' in general. We started
on the question of is there fire/burning in Hell, and how did that concept
come about. Then we sort of drifted into "why would someone go to Hell"
area. And that brought up the issue of good works. And, IMO, the Christian
doctrine is that good works will not save you. That actually makes sense
because good works is something *you* do. So if good works could save you,
then there really is no need to think about God. Man can save himself. All
the other religions pretty much teach this 'self-salvation' type of
concept. But right there is one of the biggest problems with mankind.
Pride. Arrogance. That is pretty much what got us kicked out of the Garden
of Eden. It makes sense that to get back to God, to be saved, we have to
humble ourselves. We need to recognize there is nothing we can do to save
us. We have to totally rely on God's grace by what He did through Jesus
Christ.
That is what I was talking about, a bit more expanded. But I don't think
I've fully answered your question yet. I'll try to explain but you and I
are from opposite viewpoints regarding the existence of God, but I'll try.
So .. do good works matter?
Every action a person takes has consequences. I think we can all agree on
that, Christian, Atheist, Muslim, Buddhist, whatever. Now, whether or not
you believe in God, it seems rational that a common goal of mankind should
be to make the world a better place. So doing good deeds seems like a
logical thing to do in a general sense. Also, you mention a "conscience" as
being a force that influences someone to do good deeds. I would think in
that case, even if that were the only factor, you would want to do good
deeds because fighting against your own psyche would eventually drive you
insane. But one thing I've noted regarding the "secular" concept of good
works. Different people, and different cultures often don't have the same
opinion of what is good. For example, Muslim Jihadists certainly consider
it a good work to kill a Jew. And I believe there are Hindis that believe
having sex with as many women as possible is a 'good work' (the 'sexual'
path to enlightenment or something like that). And there are Catholic Nuns
that probably still believe beating a child across the knuckles with a
ruler is good for their soul.
I think I digressed there a bit. The bottom line is I think the world would
be a better place if everyone did good deeds. So from that standpoint,
doing good works does matter and are important. But then, I suppose even
that needs to be quantified to some degree because of different people's
views as to what is 'good.' E.g.I don't believe a Muslim Jihadist doing
their certain 'good-deed-kill-a-Jew' is an important thing to try and
accomplish.
---------------------
Ok. Ed, Steven, maybe others have chimed in on this. So I'll clearly state
my belief.
In terms of being 'saved' and going to heaven, just doing good works will
not cut it. Accepting that Christ died and rose from the dead to be the
sacrifice for our sins is the key to salvation.
I realize this view is not popular in today's terms of "hey, let everyone
do their own thing, what is true for you may not be true for me...." But I
believe in an ultimate Truth. As a rough analogy, consider gravity. If my
daughter falls out of our tree from 30 feet up, she's going to get hurt
pretty bad. That is a "truth." But I don't like that. That's just horrible.
Millions of people are injured and die because of gravity. It's so
horrible, I'll refuse to believe in it. So, now when my daughter falls,
will she still be hurt? What I'm trying to get at, is there a spiritual
Truth (if there is anything spiritual at all). We may not like it and it
may offend our sensibilities, but it will not change what the Truth is.
Is Ghandi in heaven? Is Mother Theresa? I don't know for sure. I would hope
they are. But like I've been trying to clearly say there is no way to know
what is in another person's heart. The Christian belief is that salvation
is between each person and God. And the Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit
will deal with each individual. Jeffrey Dahmer was a pretty horrible person
most of his life. However, before he died, he said he became a Christian. I
don't know if he did or not. Ghandi was not "against" Christ as I recall,
but I think in his writings and speeches he did not accept Jesus as being
the Son of God. Again, I don't know for sure. If Dahmer is in Heaven and
Ghandi is not, that would sure seem pretty backwards to me. But then, there
is the 'prideful' thing again - if this doesn't conform to *my* assessment
of justice, I think it's not right. I think it's screwed up. But, according
to my faith, I don't really get to decide what is ultimately right
-Charlie
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