Charlie Coleman wrote:
> At 02:54 PM 3/11/2008 -0300, Ricardo Araoz wrote:
>> Charlie Coleman wrote:
> ...
>>> So maybe the real question is why would God give "free will?" Of course I
>>> can't claim to know the full answer to this.
>> So you "can't claim to know the full answer to this" but you can claim
>> to "know" how and how much god limited himself? What a curiously patched
>> knowledge you claim.
>
> Hmm... Maybe this is a translation or wording problem. I don't claim to
> "fully know" any of God's reasoning or thought process. I'm relating to you
> my understanding of Bible teaching as I have come to understand it so far.
> I imagine it's hard to understand that if you don't believe in God; and
> therefore think the only "knowledge" is what you can yourself explain.
>
If you start talking about 'believe' then you shouldn't keep talking
about "understand", as it is not required to "believe".
>>> But maybe it has to do with the difference in relating to "controlled"
>> creatures and "free will"
>>> creatures. For example, I want my son to help around the house. When it's
>>> time to take the trash out, sometimes I have to tell him and make him do
>>> it. Other times he just does it on his own. In both cases I'm pleased that
>>> he does it, but when he chooses to do it, the feeling I get is much more
>>> profound. I hope that doesn't sound to trite. But if you see what I'm
>>> getting at, imagine that is magnified infinitely more for God when His
>>> created choose Him over their own pride.
>> If you were to design your son. Would you design him so that he chose to
>> do it or that he doesn't. And if your son does as he's been designed
>> wouldn't it be foolish to either be pleased or be frustrated? And if he
>> doesn't do as he is designed... then the fault lies in the designer and
>> not in your son. And if you say you let "chance" make that choice I
>> should remind you you are god so you control chance, and if you choose
>> not to, then why blame chance's outcome on your son.
>
> Honestly, I don't know if I'd give something I design "free will." If I
> did, I'd have to accept the choice it made. Even if that choice were going
> to destroy the created. And by definition, that wouldn't be my fault since
> the created had the "free will" to choose otherwise.
>
But you forget your own definition of god. It is OMNI-SAPIENT, meaning
it knows everything. Therefore it will know if your son is
mature/intelligent/smart enough to take the trash out. So let's look at
both possible cases and their outcomes :
a) god knows your son is not mature enough, then he gives your son free
will
i)your son does NOT take the trash out --> god was right, he knew this
would happen so he is just a cruel being --> your beliefs are wrong.
ii) your son DOES take the trash out --> god made a mistake so he is
not omni-sapient --> your beliefs are wrong.
b) god knows your son is mature enough, then he gives your son free
will i)your son does NOT take the trash out --> god was wrong so he is
not omni-sapient --> your beliefs are wrong.
ii) your son DOES take the trash out --> god was right, so everyone
goes to heaven as there is no original sin --> your beliefs are wrong.
Ergo YOUR BELIEFS ARE WRONG.
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