Chris;
I was definitely moving to the LFP camp for off grid for all the same
reasons you mentioned, but I've just had too much trouble, so I'm
heading back to lead acid for now. I missed the acid burned jeans, its
a "look".....
Seriously, you mentioned customers coming back to a lead acid battery at
16 v; how about a $12k LFP bank doing the same thing? At least lead acid
can be recovered to some extent. I'm not married to either platform, I
just want to spend my customers' money on the most reliable solution,
and after having both temperature related issues, and failed BMS, lead
acid is back. Maybe when my current lead acid installations need to be
replaced, LFP will have solved 2 very important issues:
1) More Robust BMS boards that can be field replaced.
2) On board heating system for below freezing conditions.
I think we're close, but definitely not there.
Also, with all the mention of various UL listings, regulation needs to
evolve to differentiate between LiFePO4 and other Li+ chemistries.
LiFePO4 is inherently much safer, but we're being forced to comply with
all the same regulations as the less stable, more energy dense chemistries.
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
On 2/16/2024 8:44 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote:
Howie,
The EG4 18K and the Fortress Envy are both made by the same
manufacturer, LuxPower. Google the LXP 12K and it will all make
sense. I can’t speak for EG4, but I know that Fortress has progressed
from simply white labeling this unit to doing a significant amount of
programming and additional integration, specifically with regards to
their monitoring platform.
Personally, I have always had a skeptical approach with EG4. The EX
line was chintzy at best. Every prospective client I have crossed
paths with that has called out EG4 equipment thinks they know more and
want it cheaper because they watched a few YouTube videos where
unqualified DIY hacks free air conductors. I don’t want to write EG4
off completely, and am interested in their PowerPro battery. But with
the ebb and flow of battery manufacturers, I wouldn’t be surprised if
they weren’t around in 5 years. I feel differently about Fortress
Power and although they have been a little overactive in the inverter
market, I do believe that they are well intentioned and that their
products and business are solid.
There has been some recent LFP bashing, and respectfully, I will agree
to disagree. Early iterations of LFP had frequent issues with BMS and
cell failure, but all in all, LFP has been a shining star in off-grid
applications. I say this having installed 100+ eVault Max 18.5 in
strictly off-grid scenarios. Sure there are phone calls and necessary
firmware updates (however never a single BMS failure with the eVault
Max), but I’m not having the heartbreaking conversations of “when we
came back from vacation our 48v lead acid battery bank was at 15
volts”. I don’t like those phone calls. I also don't like holes in my
pants and shirts or calls that CO monitors are alarming because of
dead vent fans. I’m not dying on the hill of LFP, but I will say that
I am firmly in support of the measurable improvements they have made
for my customers. Paired with remote monitoring, the truck rolls a lot
less.
Kindly,
Chris
On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 4:33 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches
<re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
The issue I'm having with EG4 specifically and Signature Solar in
general is a scattershot approach to UL and NRTL listings. Those
listings may not be important to various DIY folks of
varying levels of "git-er-done," but listings are critical for
my business. Some products they sell are Listed per NEC, some are
not, and some EG4 are listed, some are not. I recently contacted
Signature Solar regarding their EG4 rack mount ESS modules and did
not receive a satisfactory response, unfortunately a new off-grid
client had already purchased an entire rack of them before
consulting with me. Our county AHJ is very strict. I can't risk
recommending or installing a system that would fail inspection.
Here in Colorado they often even cross check the altitude ratings
on all inverters. (sorry Schneider XW-Pro that I like so much,
limit on your spec sheet is 2000m altitude)
Signature Solar provided the usual NRTL stamp for UL 1741SA etc
etc on the EG4 rack batteries, then also a UL 9540A testing
certificate that they said should be sufficient, and it disturbed
me that they did not seem to understand that UL 9540A is NOT a
listing - it's a fire-resistance test that an ESS manufacturer can
use as a document to help obtain their actual UL9540 listing, and
also gain exemptions to spacing and other requirements....but from
my understanding it's NOT an actual UL or NRTL listing to UL 9540.
When I inquired about that, Signature Solar stopped communicating
with me.
I'm pretty sure my understanding of UL 9540 listing vs. 9540A
testing is correct, but I would appreciate any input before again
gently confronting both AHJs and manufacturers.
Dan Fink
Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
NABCEP PV Associate
d <mailto:dan.f...@greendustrialtraining.com>anbo...@gmail.com
970-672-4342
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