On Feb 17, 2024, at 12:27 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches
<re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
Chris;
I was definitely moving to the LFP camp for off grid for all
the same reasons you mentioned, but I've just had too much
trouble, so I'm heading back to lead acid for now. I missed
the acid burned jeans, its a "look".....
Seriously, you mentioned customers coming back to a lead acid
battery at 16 v; how about a $12k LFP bank doing the same
thing? At least lead acid can be recovered to some extent.
I'm not married to either platform, I just want to spend my
customers' money on the most reliable solution, and after
having both temperature related issues, and failed BMS, lead
acid is back. Maybe when my current lead acid installations
need to be replaced, LFP will have solved 2 very important
issues:
1) More Robust BMS boards that can be field replaced.
2) On board heating system for below freezing conditions.
I think we're close, but definitely not there.
Also, with all the mention of various UL listings, regulation
needs to evolve to differentiate between LiFePO4 and other
Li+ chemistries. LiFePO4 is inherently much safer, but we're
being forced to comply with all the same regulations as the
less stable, more energy dense chemistries.
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
On 2/16/2024 8:44 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote:
Howie,
The EG4 18K and the Fortress Envy are both made by the same
manufacturer, LuxPower. Google the LXP 12K and it will all
make sense. I can’t speak for EG4, but I know that Fortress
has progressed from simply white labeling this unit to doing
a significant amount of programming and additional
integration, specifically with regards to their monitoring
platform.
Personally, I have always had a skeptical approach with EG4.
The EX line was chintzy at best. Every prospective client I
have crossed paths with that has called out EG4 equipment
thinks they know more and want it cheaper because they
watched a few YouTube videos where unqualified DIY hacks
free air conductors. I don’t want to write EG4 off
completely, and am interested in their PowerPro battery. But
with the ebb and flow of battery manufacturers, I wouldn’t
be surprised if they weren’t around in 5 years. I feel
differently about Fortress Power and although they have been
a little overactive in the inverter market, I do believe
that they are well intentioned and that their products and
business are solid.
There has been some recent LFP bashing, and respectfully, I
will agree to disagree. Early iterations of LFP had frequent
issues with BMS and cell failure, but all in all, LFP has
been a shining star in off-grid applications. I say this
having installed 100+ eVault Max 18.5 in strictly off-grid
scenarios. Sure there are phone calls and necessary firmware
updates (however never a single BMS failure with the eVault
Max), but I’m not having the heartbreaking conversations of
“when we came back from vacation our 48v lead acid battery
bank was at 15 volts”. I don’t like those phone calls. I
also don't like holes in my pants and shirts or calls that
CO monitors are alarming because of dead vent fans. I’m not
dying on the hill of LFP, but I will say that I am firmly in
support of the measurable improvements they have made for my
customers. Paired with remote monitoring, the truck rolls a
lot less.
Kindly,
Chris
On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 4:33 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches
<re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
The issue I'm having with EG4 specifically and Signature
Solar in general is a scattershot approach to UL and
NRTL listings. Those listings may not be important to
various DIY folks of varying levels of "git-er-done,"
but listings are critical for my business. Some products
they sell are Listed per NEC, some are not, and some EG4
are listed, some are not. I recently contacted Signature
Solar regarding their EG4 rack mount ESS modules and did
not receive a satisfactory response, unfortunately a new
off-grid client had already purchased an entire rack of
them before consulting with me. Our county AHJ is very
strict. I can't risk recommending or installing a system
that would fail inspection. Here in Colorado they often
even cross check the altitude ratings on all inverters.
(sorry Schneider XW-Pro that I like so much, limit on
your spec sheet is 2000m altitude)
Signature Solar provided the usual NRTL stamp for UL
1741SA etc etc on the EG4 rack batteries, then also a UL
9540A testing certificate that they said should be
sufficient, and it disturbed me that they did not seem
to understand that UL 9540A is NOT a listing - it's a
fire-resistance test that an ESS manufacturer can use as
a document to help obtain their actual UL9540 listing,
and also gain exemptions to spacing and other
requirements....but from my understanding it's NOT an
actual UL or NRTL listing to UL 9540. When I inquired
about that, Signature Solar stopped communicating with me.
I'm pretty sure my understanding of UL 9540 listing vs.
9540A testing is correct, but I would appreciate any
input before again gently confronting both AHJs and
manufacturers.
Dan Fink
Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
NABCEP PV Associate
d
<mailto:dan.f...@greendustrialtraining.com>anbo...@gmail.com
970-672-4342
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