A number of people have mentioned strict code compliance. How are lead batteries dealing with this?
thanks jay > On Feb 17, 2024, at 12:27 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches > <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Chris; > > I was definitely moving to the LFP camp for off grid for all the same reasons > you mentioned, but I've just had too much trouble, so I'm heading back to > lead acid for now. I missed the acid burned jeans, its a "look"..... > > Seriously, you mentioned customers coming back to a lead acid battery at 16 > v; how about a $12k LFP bank doing the same thing? At least lead acid can be > recovered to some extent. I'm not married to either platform, I just want to > spend my customers' money on the most reliable solution, and after having > both temperature related issues, and failed BMS, lead acid is back. Maybe > when my current lead acid installations need to be replaced, LFP will have > solved 2 very important issues: > 1) More Robust BMS boards that can be field replaced. > 2) On board heating system for below freezing conditions. > > I think we're close, but definitely not there. > > Also, with all the mention of various UL listings, regulation needs to evolve > to differentiate between LiFePO4 and other Li+ chemistries. LiFePO4 is > inherently much safer, but we're being forced to comply with all the same > regulations as the less stable, more energy dense chemistries. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > On 2/16/2024 8:44 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote: >> Howie, >> >> The EG4 18K and the Fortress Envy are both made by the same manufacturer, >> LuxPower. Google the LXP 12K and it will all make sense. I can’t speak for >> EG4, but I know that Fortress has progressed from simply white labeling this >> unit to doing a significant amount of programming and additional >> integration, specifically with regards to their monitoring platform. >> >> Personally, I have always had a skeptical approach with EG4. The EX line was >> chintzy at best. Every prospective client I have crossed paths with that has >> called out EG4 equipment thinks they know more and want it cheaper because >> they watched a few YouTube videos where unqualified DIY hacks free air >> conductors. I don’t want to write EG4 off completely, and am interested in >> their PowerPro battery. But with the ebb and flow of battery manufacturers, >> I wouldn’t be surprised if they weren’t around in 5 years. I feel >> differently about Fortress Power and although they have been a little >> overactive in the inverter market, I do believe that they are well >> intentioned and that their products and business are solid. >> >> There has been some recent LFP bashing, and respectfully, I will agree to >> disagree. Early iterations of LFP had frequent issues with BMS and cell >> failure, but all in all, LFP has been a shining star in off-grid >> applications. I say this having installed 100+ eVault Max 18.5 in strictly >> off-grid scenarios. Sure there are phone calls and necessary firmware >> updates (however never a single BMS failure with the eVault Max), but I’m >> not having the heartbreaking conversations of “when we came back from >> vacation our 48v lead acid battery bank was at 15 volts”. I don’t like those >> phone calls. I also don't like holes in my pants and shirts or calls that CO >> monitors are alarming because of dead vent fans. I’m not dying on the hill >> of LFP, but I will say that I am firmly in support of the measurable >> improvements they have made for my customers. Paired with remote monitoring, >> the truck rolls a lot less. >> >> Kindly, >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 4:33 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches >> <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >> <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> wrote: >> The issue I'm having with EG4 specifically and Signature Solar in general is >> a scattershot approach to UL and NRTL listings. Those listings may not be >> important to various DIY folks of varying levels of "git-er-done," but >> listings are critical for my business. Some products they sell are Listed >> per NEC, some are not, and some EG4 are listed, some are not. I recently >> contacted Signature Solar regarding their EG4 rack mount ESS modules and did >> not receive a satisfactory response, unfortunately a new off-grid client had >> already purchased an entire rack of them before consulting with me. Our >> county AHJ is very strict. I can't risk recommending or installing a system >> that would fail inspection. Here in Colorado they often even cross check the >> altitude ratings on all inverters. (sorry Schneider XW-Pro that I like so >> much, limit on your spec sheet is 2000m altitude) >> >> Signature Solar provided the usual NRTL stamp for UL 1741SA etc etc on the >> EG4 rack batteries, then also a UL 9540A testing certificate that they said >> should be sufficient, and it disturbed me that they did not seem to >> understand that UL 9540A is NOT a listing - it's a fire-resistance test that >> an ESS manufacturer can use as a document to help obtain their actual UL9540 >> listing, and also gain exemptions to spacing and other requirements....but >> from my understanding it's NOT an actual UL or NRTL listing to UL 9540. When >> I inquired about that, Signature Solar stopped communicating with me. >> >> I'm pretty sure my understanding of UL 9540 listing vs. 9540A testing is >> correct, but I would appreciate any input before again gently confronting >> both AHJs and manufacturers. >> >> Dan Fink >> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC >> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation >> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >> NABCEP PV Associate >> d <mailto:dan.f...@greendustrialtraining.com>anbo...@gmail.com >> <mailto:anbo...@gmail.com> >> 970-672-4342 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> <http://re-wrenches.org/> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >> <mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> <https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> <http://re-wrenches.org/> >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >> <mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> <https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/> >> > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. 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