Jay - Despite the exceptions in NEC 480.3 and 706.5 for lead-acid not
needing to be Listed, and the maximum capacity exception for lead-acid in
IFC 1206.2.8.3, one of our local AHJs is now insisting that ALL residential
ESS, including lead-acid, even off-grid with no utility interconnect, must
be UL 9540 listed because they say the latest IRC says so.

As you can imagine this limits our design options on the lead-acid side; as
far as I can tell only BAE sells such a thing, and it's not intended or
proceed for residential off-grid use.

Dan Fink
Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
NABCEP PV Associate
d <dan.f...@greendustrialtraining.com>anbo...@gmail.com
970-672-4342




On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 1:41 PM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> To this point I'm not aware of a lead battery that is compliant to 9540 or
> 1973...    we are still trying to work out the kinks of these UL codes.
>  This what happens when people try to blanket fix a problem with one
> technology and apply it across the board without a full understanding of
> the different chemistries that are out there.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 17, 2024, 12:33 PM jay via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> A number of people have mentioned strict code compliance.
>> How are lead batteries dealing with this?
>>
>> thanks
>> jay
>>
>> On Feb 17, 2024, at 12:27 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>> Chris;
>>
>> I was definitely moving to the LFP camp for off grid for all the same
>> reasons you mentioned, but I've just had too much trouble, so I'm heading
>> back to lead acid for now.  I missed the acid burned jeans, its a
>> "look".....
>>
>> Seriously, you mentioned customers coming back to a lead acid battery at
>> 16 v; how about a $12k LFP bank doing the same thing?  At least lead acid
>> can be recovered to some extent.  I'm not married to either platform, I
>> just want to spend my customers' money on the most reliable solution, and
>> after having both temperature related issues, and failed BMS, lead acid is
>> back.  Maybe when my current lead acid installations need to be replaced,
>> LFP will have solved 2 very important issues:
>> 1) More Robust BMS boards that can be field replaced.
>> 2) On board heating system for below freezing conditions.
>>
>> I think we're close, but definitely not there.
>>
>> Also, with all the mention of various UL listings, regulation needs to
>> evolve to differentiate between LiFePO4 and other Li+ chemistries.  LiFePO4
>> is inherently much safer, but we're being forced to comply with all the
>> same regulations as the less stable, more energy dense chemistries.
>>
>> Ray Walters
>> Remote Solar
>> On 2/16/2024 8:44 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote:
>>
>> Howie,
>>
>> The EG4 18K and the Fortress Envy are both made by the same manufacturer,
>> LuxPower. Google the LXP 12K and it will all make sense.  I can’t speak for
>> EG4, but I know that Fortress has progressed from simply white labeling
>> this unit to doing a significant amount of programming and additional
>> integration, specifically with regards to their monitoring platform.
>>
>> Personally, I have always had a skeptical approach with EG4. The EX line
>> was chintzy at best. Every prospective client I have crossed paths with
>> that has called out EG4 equipment thinks they know more and want it cheaper
>> because they watched a few YouTube videos where unqualified DIY hacks free
>> air conductors. I don’t want to write EG4 off completely, and am interested
>> in their PowerPro battery. But with the ebb and flow of battery
>> manufacturers, I wouldn’t be surprised if they weren’t around in 5 years. I
>> feel differently about Fortress Power and although they have been a little
>> overactive in the inverter market, I do believe that they are well
>> intentioned and that their products and business are solid.
>>
>> There has been some recent LFP bashing, and respectfully, I will agree to
>> disagree. Early iterations of LFP had frequent issues with BMS and cell
>> failure, but all in all, LFP has been a shining star in off-grid
>> applications. I say this having installed 100+ eVault Max 18.5 in strictly
>> off-grid scenarios. Sure there are phone calls and necessary firmware
>> updates (however never a single BMS failure with the eVault Max), but I’m
>> not having the heartbreaking conversations of “when we came back from
>> vacation our 48v lead acid battery bank was at 15 volts”. I don’t like
>> those phone calls. I also don't like holes in my pants and shirts or calls
>> that CO monitors are alarming because of dead vent fans. I’m not dying on
>> the hill of LFP, but I will say that I am firmly in support of the
>> measurable improvements they have made for my customers. Paired with remote
>> monitoring, the truck rolls a lot less.
>>
>> Kindly,
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 4:33 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> The issue I'm having with EG4 specifically and Signature Solar in
>>> general is a scattershot approach to UL and NRTL listings. Those listings
>>> may not be important to various DIY folks of varying levels of
>>> "git-er-done," but listings are critical for my business. Some products
>>> they sell are Listed per NEC, some are not, and some EG4 are listed, some
>>> are not. I recently contacted Signature Solar regarding their EG4 rack
>>> mount ESS modules and did not receive a satisfactory response,
>>> unfortunately a new off-grid client had already purchased an entire rack of
>>> them before consulting with me. Our county AHJ is very strict. I can't risk
>>> recommending or installing a system that would fail inspection. Here in
>>> Colorado they often even cross check the altitude ratings on all inverters.
>>> (sorry Schneider XW-Pro that I like so much, limit on your spec sheet is
>>> 2000m altitude)
>>>
>>> Signature Solar provided the usual NRTL stamp for UL 1741SA etc etc on
>>> the EG4 rack batteries, then also a UL 9540A testing certificate that they
>>> said should be sufficient, and it disturbed me that they did not seem to
>>> understand that UL 9540A is NOT a listing - it's a fire-resistance test
>>> that an ESS manufacturer can use as a document to help obtain their actual
>>> UL9540 listing, and also gain exemptions to spacing and other
>>> requirements....but from my understanding it's NOT an actual UL or NRTL
>>> listing to UL 9540. When I inquired about that, Signature Solar stopped
>>> communicating with me.
>>>
>>> I'm pretty sure my understanding of UL 9540 listing vs. 9540A testing is
>>> correct, but I would appreciate any input before again gently confronting
>>> both AHJs and manufacturers.
>>>
>>> Dan Fink
>>> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
>>> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
>>> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
>>> NABCEP PV Associate
>>> d <dan.f...@greendustrialtraining.com>anbo...@gmail.com
>>> 970-672-4342
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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