Jay - Despite the exceptions in NEC 480.3 and 706.5 for lead-acid not needing to be Listed, and the maximum capacity exception for lead-acid in IFC 1206.2.8.3, one of our local AHJs is now insisting that ALL residential ESS, including lead-acid, even off-grid with no utility interconnect, must be UL 9540 listed because they say the latest IRC says so.
As you can imagine this limits our design options on the lead-acid side; as far as I can tell only BAE sells such a thing, and it's not intended or proceed for residential off-grid use. Dan Fink Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector NABCEP PV Associate d <dan.f...@greendustrialtraining.com>anbo...@gmail.com 970-672-4342 On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 1:41 PM Steve Higgins via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > To this point I'm not aware of a lead battery that is compliant to 9540 or > 1973... we are still trying to work out the kinks of these UL codes. > This what happens when people try to blanket fix a problem with one > technology and apply it across the board without a full understanding of > the different chemistries that are out there. > > > > On Sat, Feb 17, 2024, 12:33 PM jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> A number of people have mentioned strict code compliance. >> How are lead batteries dealing with this? >> >> thanks >> jay >> >> On Feb 17, 2024, at 12:27 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> Chris; >> >> I was definitely moving to the LFP camp for off grid for all the same >> reasons you mentioned, but I've just had too much trouble, so I'm heading >> back to lead acid for now. I missed the acid burned jeans, its a >> "look"..... >> >> Seriously, you mentioned customers coming back to a lead acid battery at >> 16 v; how about a $12k LFP bank doing the same thing? At least lead acid >> can be recovered to some extent. I'm not married to either platform, I >> just want to spend my customers' money on the most reliable solution, and >> after having both temperature related issues, and failed BMS, lead acid is >> back. Maybe when my current lead acid installations need to be replaced, >> LFP will have solved 2 very important issues: >> 1) More Robust BMS boards that can be field replaced. >> 2) On board heating system for below freezing conditions. >> >> I think we're close, but definitely not there. >> >> Also, with all the mention of various UL listings, regulation needs to >> evolve to differentiate between LiFePO4 and other Li+ chemistries. LiFePO4 >> is inherently much safer, but we're being forced to comply with all the >> same regulations as the less stable, more energy dense chemistries. >> >> Ray Walters >> Remote Solar >> On 2/16/2024 8:44 PM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches wrote: >> >> Howie, >> >> The EG4 18K and the Fortress Envy are both made by the same manufacturer, >> LuxPower. Google the LXP 12K and it will all make sense. I can’t speak for >> EG4, but I know that Fortress has progressed from simply white labeling >> this unit to doing a significant amount of programming and additional >> integration, specifically with regards to their monitoring platform. >> >> Personally, I have always had a skeptical approach with EG4. The EX line >> was chintzy at best. Every prospective client I have crossed paths with >> that has called out EG4 equipment thinks they know more and want it cheaper >> because they watched a few YouTube videos where unqualified DIY hacks free >> air conductors. I don’t want to write EG4 off completely, and am interested >> in their PowerPro battery. But with the ebb and flow of battery >> manufacturers, I wouldn’t be surprised if they weren’t around in 5 years. I >> feel differently about Fortress Power and although they have been a little >> overactive in the inverter market, I do believe that they are well >> intentioned and that their products and business are solid. >> >> There has been some recent LFP bashing, and respectfully, I will agree to >> disagree. Early iterations of LFP had frequent issues with BMS and cell >> failure, but all in all, LFP has been a shining star in off-grid >> applications. I say this having installed 100+ eVault Max 18.5 in strictly >> off-grid scenarios. Sure there are phone calls and necessary firmware >> updates (however never a single BMS failure with the eVault Max), but I’m >> not having the heartbreaking conversations of “when we came back from >> vacation our 48v lead acid battery bank was at 15 volts”. I don’t like >> those phone calls. I also don't like holes in my pants and shirts or calls >> that CO monitors are alarming because of dead vent fans. I’m not dying on >> the hill of LFP, but I will say that I am firmly in support of the >> measurable improvements they have made for my customers. Paired with remote >> monitoring, the truck rolls a lot less. >> >> Kindly, >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 4:33 PM Dan Fink via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> The issue I'm having with EG4 specifically and Signature Solar in >>> general is a scattershot approach to UL and NRTL listings. Those listings >>> may not be important to various DIY folks of varying levels of >>> "git-er-done," but listings are critical for my business. Some products >>> they sell are Listed per NEC, some are not, and some EG4 are listed, some >>> are not. I recently contacted Signature Solar regarding their EG4 rack >>> mount ESS modules and did not receive a satisfactory response, >>> unfortunately a new off-grid client had already purchased an entire rack of >>> them before consulting with me. Our county AHJ is very strict. I can't risk >>> recommending or installing a system that would fail inspection. Here in >>> Colorado they often even cross check the altitude ratings on all inverters. >>> (sorry Schneider XW-Pro that I like so much, limit on your spec sheet is >>> 2000m altitude) >>> >>> Signature Solar provided the usual NRTL stamp for UL 1741SA etc etc on >>> the EG4 rack batteries, then also a UL 9540A testing certificate that they >>> said should be sufficient, and it disturbed me that they did not seem to >>> understand that UL 9540A is NOT a listing - it's a fire-resistance test >>> that an ESS manufacturer can use as a document to help obtain their actual >>> UL9540 listing, and also gain exemptions to spacing and other >>> requirements....but from my understanding it's NOT an actual UL or NRTL >>> listing to UL 9540. When I inquired about that, Signature Solar stopped >>> communicating with me. >>> >>> I'm pretty sure my understanding of UL 9540 listing vs. 9540A testing is >>> correct, but I would appreciate any input before again gently confronting >>> both AHJs and manufacturers. >>> >>> Dan Fink >>> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC >>> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation >>> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector >>> NABCEP PV Associate >>> d <dan.f...@greendustrialtraining.com>anbo...@gmail.com >>> 970-672-4342 >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & >> settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > >
_______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
