On Mon, Apr 15, 2024 at 5:41 PM kcrisman <kcris...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > We (not just Sage, but you and I!) have been discussing this for > almost 15 years. > > > Haha, true! > > > SageMath has several other long-term contributors who also package > software. We're all roughly on the same page about what it would take > to fix the sage installation for end users. > > > And some of these people (perhaps kiwifb?) have not been as directly > involved in some of the recent disputes. Maybe there is a path forward (I > also presume the CoCC is thinking about this). > kiwifb has a custom-made Sage on a mini-distro (a Gentoo prefix) which mostly works for him - and he's too busy anyway, I suppose. > > > But so far, every attempt to disentangle the > library/distribution to enable this division of labor has been met > with resistance by essentially one person. > > > Well, more accurately there must be a critical mass of people who, like > Kwankyu in some recent comments (apologies for not having link to hand), > want to trust that the related process undertaken by that person is worth > doing, and to let that proceed. Otherwise they would have spoken up, as > many longer-term developers are not shy of doing so on other matters. > Kwankyu has been very open in saying that he does political voting. I presume that's what applies to the rest of that "mass" you mention - almost everyone there is a convicted serial macOS user. > Regarding WSL in Dima's post, I thought > https://github.com/sagemath/sage/pull/37184 (and the followups) addressed > this quite a bit - that was what I was referring to. If I could get it to > work, I think anyone could. But I didn't try Jupyterlab, maybe that's not > included in it. Anyway, I was definitely not referring to anyone who knows > what "apt-get" is in WSL. So am I right in your saying that Jupyter > wouldn't work "out of the box" with Sage with the conda-based solution for > WSL? To me, that's an argument *for* batteries, not against. > No, no amount of "batteries" will help you here - you need your Jupyter to be run on the Windows side, not on WSL side, so that you can use either a Windows browser or (Windows-side) VS Code to run Jupyter. What would really simplify things here is creation of a Windows based installer, not mere a document on dozens of things to be done to set it all up. As to whether it would work with Conda-based Sage in WSL - I don't know, the crucial thing here is automatic discovery of Sage's Jupyter kernel (a small JSON file) > > Same applies for the MacOS version provided by 3manifolds, my assumption > was that this would work "out of the box" if you do sage -n jupyter or > something. > 3manifolds app packages a completely separate full-blown Jupyter installation to interact with Sage (with their standard launcher), and that's the only Jupyter they support. They don't need to package "batteries" which are just ballast for their app. That assumption could be wrong - but again, why put additional barriers to > the user? "Normal" software that "normal" i.e. non-developer people use in > the real world doesn't do that. Why make that a prerequisite for just > doing math? I hate to beat the dead horse of the now-debatable mission > statement, but does Mathematica make you separately download and install a > notebook? Even LaTeX has this problem - you have to install the > distribution separately from TeXShop or what have you - and just like the > developer friction noted here, it's a little bit of extra friction. > > > What fragmentation are you talking about? > > I meant that it's a bit silly (from the Mac or Windows perspective) that > one even needs Arch, Ubuntu, Debian, Gentoo, Fedora, or anything else > Mac? I am not familiar with any medium/large size business which uses macOS on anything apart from desk/laptop. Windows? WSL didn't arise from nothing... (sorry if I failed to notice irony here) on the massive (and probably incorrect) list on Wikipedia: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_distributions That's a > massive duplication of effort right there. > Cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_Protestant_denominations (and that's "protestant"+"largest" only) > > It has to be formulated and agreed upon in general lines, otherwise such > a summit would be a waste of time. > > Agreed. All of my points are irrelevant compared to getting us back on > some consensus track. That means toning down the rhetoric and candidly > saying what sub-optimal concessions might be on the table (to be clear, for > everyone). It's clear now that at least two visions for Sage > packaging/modularization which, in their current technical state, are > viewed by stakeholders as colliding in their purest forms, but it seems > unlikely that Sage is not Turing-complete enough to support a modus vivendi. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "sage-devel" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/7ebdcd4a-b8fa-4e1a-8f65-687730fa309bn%40googlegroups.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/7ebdcd4a-b8fa-4e1a-8f65-687730fa309bn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. 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