Tiago Descontar cafezinho eh sacanagem hein ! Em 05/10/11, Tiago Peczenyj<tiago.pecze...@gmail.com> escreveu: > Daniel, > > acabei me alongando em algums comentários alguns emails atrás. > > Seria bom desmembrarmos esta thread para falar sobre mercado de trabalho. > > 2011/10/5 Daniel Vinciguerra <dan.vincigue...@gmail.com> > >> Senhores, >> >> Para não perdermos o foco ta thread e aproveitarmos melhor a discussão e >> todos os pontos de vista, me prontifiquei e entrei em contato com a Elisa >> (moça do recrutamento) para uma negociação sem compromisso e postarei aqui >> os resultados da negociação para ajudar o pessoal que esta pensando em >> concorrer a vaga. >> >> De qualquer forma em um primeiro contato a Elisa ja deixou escapar que o >> valor é aberto e ela precisa responder a solicitação da IBM ainda hoje. >> >> Forte abraço a todos, >> >> * >> Daniel Vinciguerra* >> Web Solutions Architect and Co-Owner at Bivee >> http://github.com/dvinciguerra <http://github.com/dvinciguerra> >> >> >> 2011/10/5 cleiton alves <cleitondeb...@gmail.com> >> >>> Herman >>> Fique tranquilo , cada um esta colocando o ponto de vista sobre o >>> assunto , não precisa de brigas , flamewar essas coisas. >>> >>> Abraços >>> >>> Em 05/10/11, Carlos Eduardo Langoni<ce.lang...@gmail.com> escreveu: >>> > Hernan e demais colegas da lista, >>> > >>> > Eu concordo com generalizar--, mas também acho que isso tudo é reflexo >>> da >>> > experiência de todos com este tipo de negociação, não necessariamente >>> > estamos falando da IBM e suas terceirizadas, mas de uma forma geral o >>> > mercado tem se comportado assim, papel acima da experiência, se você >>> > não >>> tem >>> > papel não se encaixa nas vagas. >>> > >>> > Tudo bem, vai lá, ficou totalmente offtopic a conversa, mas daí a ter >>> > vontade de sair da lista, nem tanto. >>> > >>> > Concordo com o Daniel Vinciguerra, gato escaldado tem medo de água >>> > fria. >>> > >>> > Abraços a todos! >>> > >>> > >>> > 2011/10/5 Alexei Znamensky <rus...@gmail.com> >>> > >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> 2011/10/5 hernan.lo...@inexsoft.com.br <hernan.lo...@inexsoft.com.br> >>> >> >>> >> Por acaso alguem ligou e perguntou ou negociou algo ? >>> >>> Essas especulações marrons me dão nojo... >>> >>> Se não tem coisa boa para falar melhor não falar nada. >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >> hernan++ # se nao sabe, nao fala >>> >> hernan++ # é sempre fácil generalizar e especular >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>> Só vi comentários ruins, pessimistas e de péssimo gosto, lamento >>> >>> demais... da até vontade de sair da lista >>> >>> >>> >>> abs >>> >>> >>> >>> hernan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Return-Path: <saopaulo-pm-bounces+hernan.lopes=inexsoft.com...@pm.org >>> > >>> >>> Received: from x6.develooper.com (x6.develooper.com [207.171.7.86]) >>> by >>> >>> us-dal-dtb-962-ip3.itmnetworks.net with SMTP; 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charset="windows-1252" >>> >>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>> >>> Errors-To: saopaulo-pm-bounces+hernan.lopes=inexsoft.com...@pm.org >>> >>> Sender: saopaulo-pm-bounces+hernan.lopes=inexsoft.com...@pm.org >>> >>> X-Rcpt-To: <hernan.lo...@inexsoft.com.br> >>> >>> X-SmarterMail-Spam: SPF_None, HostKarma - Whitelist, ISpamAssassin 0 >>> >>> [raw: >>> >>> 0], Custom Rules [List-Unsubscribe 5:5;Received -10:-10] >>> >>> X-SmarterMail-TotalSpamWeight: -8 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Sabem o que é pior sobre esse mercado marrom de TI: >>> >>> >>> >>> - querem pagar mal, com contratos duvidosos via PJ ou quarterizados >>> >>> >>> >>> - tem altas taxas de turnover[1] e funcionários que não se >>> >>> identificam >>> >>> com a missão da empresa (no geral, por falta de motivação $$$) >>> >>> >>> >>> - Praticam uma das 2 maneiras de gerar lucro: aumentar receitas acima >>> >>> das despesas, ou cortar gastos abaixo das receitas. Há relatos de >>> >>> empresas que cortam até café! >>> >>> >>> >>> - E ainda saem por ai dando entrevista pra radio/TV/jornal/web >>> >>> dizendo >>> >>> que falta profissional de TI no mercado. Falta mesmo é pagar bem. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> [ ]s >>> >>> Carlos. >>> >>> >>> >>> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turnover_(employment) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 2011/10/5 Hernan Lopes <hernanlo...@gmail.com>: >>> >>> > nojo! >>> >>> > >>> >>> > 2011/10/4 Hélder Máximo Botter Ribas <helderri...@gmail.com> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> O que esta sendo falado pode ser aplicado ao mercado >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> Mas é a velha e boa intuição que se adquire com o tempo que pode >>> >>> >> ajudar >>> >>> a >>> >>> >> "prever" se vai entrar num projeto desafiador ou numa fria. >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> Pois todos sabemos que exitem projetos e projetos, >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> E sempre vamos ver gerentes que brigam pela equipe e outros que >>> brigam >>> >>> com >>> >>> >> a equipe, equipe de vendas ruim e boas, estratégias de negócios >>> >>> suicidas ou >>> >>> >> conservadoras, produto estabelecido ou briga para oferecer >>> >>> >> serviços >>> em >>> >>> >> diversos lugares >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> Claro que as empresas de body shop que existem na ibm são famosas >>> (e >>> >>> >> as >>> >>> >> mesmas atuam em diversas outras consultorias e outros clientes), e >>> >>> emprega >>> >>> >> muitos colegas. >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> E aquela, se o salário não compensar o trabalho ( ou a troca de >>> >>> trabalho), >>> >>> >> para que aceitar? >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> Hélder >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> 2011/10/4 Alexei Znamensky <rus...@gmail.com> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> 2011/10/4 Tiago Peczenyj <tiago.pecze...@gmail.com> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> Tem um outro detalhe >>> >>> >>>> Empresas como a IBM possuem centenas de divisões e vivem >>> comprando >>> >>> >>>> outras empresas. >>> >>> >>>> É bem possivel que algumas dessas divisões sejam caóticas, >>> >>> >>>> outras >>> >>> sejam >>> >>> >>>> extraordinárias. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Estou lá dentro, e te garanto que é exatamente assim. Há áreas na >>> IBM >>> >>> que >>> >>> >>> são fantásticas para se trabalhar, e outras que são o fino do >>> lixo. >>> >>> >>> Do >>> >>> lado >>> >>> >>> de fora, não se vê isso, então, basicamente você: >>> >>> >>> 1) ou já trabalhou lá e sabe >>> >>> >>> 2) ou conhece alguém que trabalha ou trabalhou lá >>> >>> >>> 3) ou arrisca >>> >>> >>> 4) ou nem arrisca e sai fora >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> Na pratica, no Brasil, com TI Corporativa, existe a tendência a >>> >>> >>>> maior >>> >>> >>>> burocratização do trabalho e terceirização do trabalho. De >>> repente >>> >>> aqueles >>> >>> >>>> caras q foram contratados por 6 meses para fazer um sisteminha >>> >>> simples foi a >>> >>> >>>> unica forma de fazer esse maldito sistema pois o gerente não >>> tinha >>> >>> como >>> >>> >>>> contratar um mizero funcionario (falta autorização, >>> >>> >>>> eletricidade, >>> >>> etc) mas >>> >>> >>>> podia gastar 6 milhões com terceiros. Mas se esse gerente >>> consegue >>> >>> uma >>> >>> >>>> empresa que cobra 4 milhões, melhor pra ele que vai economizar >>> >>> dinheiro e >>> >>> >>>> pode sobrar para alguma outra coisa. Se a empresa contratada é >>> ruim, >>> >>> a >>> >>> >>>> galera terceirizada vai sofrer. >>> >>> >>>> E para vencer essas "licitações" quanto mais papel, >>> >>> >>>> certificação, >>> >>> sigla, >>> >>> >>>> melhor. Mas é só uma parte da realidade Brasileira e mundial. >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 10:43 PM, Daniel de Oliveira Mantovani >>> >>> >>>> <daniel.oliveira.mantov...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> 2011/10/4 cleiton alves <cleitondeb...@gmail.com>: >>> >>> >>>>> > Uma coisa é classica , estuda-se muito e paga-se pouco >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> Os caras que eu conheço que estudaram muito até onde eu sei não >>> >>> ganham >>> >>> >>>>> pouco não, nenhum deles. E todos eles acham que eles estudaram >>> >>> pouco. >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>>>> > =begin disclaimer >>> >>> >>>>> > Sao Paulo Perl Mongers: http://sao-paulo.pm.org/ >>> >>> >>>>> > SaoPaulo-pm mailing list: SaoPaulo-pm@pm.org >>> >>> >>>>> > L<http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/saopaulo-pm> >>> >>> >>>>> > =end disclaimer >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> -- >>> >>> >>>>> http://noticiasglobal.com >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> "If you’ve never written anything thoughtful, then you’ve never >>> had >>> >>> >>>>> any difficult, important, or interesting thoughts. That’s the >>> >>> secret: >>> >>> >>>>> people who don’t write, are people who don’t think." >>> >>> >>>>> =begin disclaimer >>> >>> >>>>> Sao Paulo Perl Mongers: http://sao-paulo.pm.org/ >>> >>> >>>>> SaoPaulo-pm mailing list: SaoPaulo-pm@pm.org >>> >>> >>>>> L<http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/saopaulo-pm> >>> >>> >>>>> =end disclaimer >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> -- >>> >>> >>>> Tiago B. Peczenyj >>> >>> >>>> Linux User #405772 >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> http://pacman.blog.br >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> =begin disclaimer >>> >>> >>>> Sao Paulo Perl Mongers: http://sao-paulo.pm.org/ >>> >>> >>>> SaoPaulo-pm mailing list: SaoPaulo-pm@pm.org >>> >>> >>>> L<http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/saopaulo-pm> >>> >>> >>>> =end disclaimer >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> Alexei "RUSSOZ" Znamensky | russoz EM gmail com | >>> http://russoz.org >>> >>> >>> GPG fingerprint = 42AB E78C B83A AE31 7D27 1CF3 C66F B5C7 71CA >>> 9F3C >>> >>> >>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/alexeiz | http://github.com/russoz >>> >>> >>> "I don't know... fly casual!" -- Han Solo >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> =begin disclaimer >>> >>> >>> Sao Paulo Perl Mongers: http://sao-paulo.pm.org/ >>> >>> >>> SaoPaulo-pm mailing list: SaoPaulo-pm@pm.org >>> >>> >>> L<http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/saopaulo-pm> >>> >>> >>> =end disclaimer >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> -- >>> >>> >> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> >> Hélder Máximo Botter Ribas >>> >>> >> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> >> twitter: @hmbr >>> >>> >> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> =begin disclaimer >>> >>> >> Sao Paulo Perl Mongers: http://sao-paulo.pm.org/ >>> >>> >> SaoPaulo-pm mailing list: SaoPaulo-pm@pm.org >>> >>> >> L<http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/saopaulo-pm> >>> >>> >> =end disclaimer >>> >>> >> >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > =begin disclaimer >>> >>> > Sao Paulo Perl Mongers: http://sao-paulo.pm.org/ >>> >>> > SaoPaulo-pm mailing list: SaoPaulo-pm@pm.org >>> >>> > L<http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/saopaulo-pm> >>> >>> > =end disclaimer >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> =begin disclaimer >>> >>> Sao Paulo Perl Mongers: http://sao-paulo.pm.org/ >>> >>> SaoPaulo-pm mailing list: SaoPaulo-pm@pm.org >>> >>> L<http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/saopaulo-pm> >>> >>> =end disclaimer >>> >>> >>> >>> =begin disclaimer >>> >>> Sao Paulo Perl Mongers: http://sao-paulo.pm.org/ >>> >>> SaoPaulo-pm mailing list: SaoPaulo-pm@pm.org >>> >>> L<http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/saopaulo-pm> >>> >>> =end disclaimer >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> -- >>> >> Alexei "RUSSOZ" Znamensky | russoz EM gmail com | http://russoz.org >>> >> GPG fingerprint = 42AB E78C B83A AE31 7D27 1CF3 C66F B5C7 71CA 9F3C >>> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/alexeiz | http://github.com/russoz >>> >> "I don't know... fly casual!" -- Han Solo >>> >> >>> >> =begin disclaimer >>> >> Sao Paulo Perl Mongers: http://sao-paulo.pm.org/ >>> >> SaoPaulo-pm mailing list: SaoPaulo-pm@pm.org >>> >> L<http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/saopaulo-pm> >>> >> =end disclaimer >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >>> >>> >>> -- >>> cleiton alves >>> =begin disclaimer >>> Sao Paulo Perl Mongers: http://sao-paulo.pm.org/ >>> SaoPaulo-pm mailing list: SaoPaulo-pm@pm.org >>> L<http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/saopaulo-pm> >>> =end disclaimer >>> >> >> >> =begin disclaimer >> Sao Paulo Perl Mongers: http://sao-paulo.pm.org/ >> SaoPaulo-pm mailing list: SaoPaulo-pm@pm.org >> L<http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/saopaulo-pm> >> =end disclaimer >> >> > > > -- > Tiago B. Peczenyj > Linux User #405772 > > http://pacman.blog.br >
-- cleiton alves =begin disclaimer Sao Paulo Perl Mongers: http://sao-paulo.pm.org/ SaoPaulo-pm mailing list: SaoPaulo-pm@pm.org L<http://mail.pm.org/mailman/listinfo/saopaulo-pm> =end disclaimer