Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...
On Mon, 27 May 2002, John Chambers wrote: > Atte wrote: > | On Sat, 25 May 2002, John Chambers wrote: > | > Isn't this slicing your baloney rather thin? > | > | I don't get it... > > Oh, yeah; I guess it's a somewhat obscure English metaphor. In common > American speech, at least, "baloney" isn't just a sort of bland > sausage; it is commonly used to mean things like "nonsense" or "idle > chatter" or other such things which the speaker doesn't want to hear > any more about. Some slicing your baloney thin is used to say that > someone is making fine distinctions between things that aren't worth > comparing at all. When I've heard it, it has always been spoken in a > humorous voice. Sorta like saying that someone has far too much time > on their hands. Thanks ;-) -- love, peace & harmony Atte To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Percussion notation...
Atte wrote: | On Sat, 25 May 2002, John Chambers wrote: | > Isn't this slicing your baloney rather thin? | | I don't get it... Oh, yeah; I guess it's a somewhat obscure English metaphor. In common American speech, at least, "baloney" isn't just a sort of bland sausage; it is commonly used to mean things like "nonsense" or "idle chatter" or other such things which the speaker doesn't want to hear any more about. Some slicing your baloney thin is used to say that someone is making fine distinctions between things that aren't worth comparing at all. When I've heard it, it has always been spoken in a humorous voice. Sorta like saying that someone has far too much time on their hands. There are probably some equally obscure ways to say this in most other languages. The topic almost begs for witty metaphors. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[abcusers] Re: To tell the dancer from the dance
John Walsh said >Oh, did Bryan mean that statement seriously? Hmm... I thought >there was a hint of sarcasm there, just as I've taken this entire >thread as an indirect demonstration that the saying "abc is for the music >alone*" (_whatever_ that may mean), is a worthy rule of thumb for overall >design, but an unreliable guide for individual decisions. Sorry John, but I was perfectly serious. There was no intention of sarcasm but perhaps my dealings with this list have left me a little bitter and twisted. Laurie said - >An instruction to play a note on fret 9 of the G string instead of the open >E string is musically relevant. If you are going to go down to that level of detail for guitars in conventional tuning then you must allow it for any and every instrument in any tuning. It would be just as valid for me to try and notate cross fingering on the English concertina (which you have to do if you want to play a fifth jump legato rather than staccato, so it does make a difference to the sound and hence fits Laurie's criterion for musical relevance). I would consider it absurd to do so. I don't believe that the abc format has the capacity to handle all the variations that this policy would produce so although "abc is for the music alone" might be a bit absolute, I think it is the direction to go. Matters of performance, including choice of instrument, are for the performer. Bryan Creer To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[abcusers] Re: To tell the dancer from the dance
Laurie Griffiths wrote >Well of course you need to specify the tuning for tablature. Obviously. >The only interesting question is "how much >of this, if any, should be encoded in the ABC. None at all, because ABC is not tablature. The recipient could be playing anything from a carillon to a Mongolian nose flute. >It applies to not just one instrument but to a fairly large family, >including unfretted instruments such as violin. >(guitar, 5 string banjo, tenor banjo, mandolin, mandola, bouzouki, >balalaika, bass guitar, violin, viola, cello, double bass, viola da gamba, >cittern, vihuelha, ud, p'i-p'a, gekkin, sitar, vina, tampura, lute and no >doublt many others). and you "generate G;4 for G on string 4" for all of these? (Including the balalaika?) Bryan Creer To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: To tell the dancer from the dance
Bryan Creer, then Phil Taylor, wrote: >>This and the example imply that the instrument being played is relevant. >>Wouldn't it be best to exclude instrument specific notation from abc? >>It could get very messy if you don't. >> >That's a purist approach. While it would be nice to have a notation system > [...and goes on to make a good point...] Oh, did Bryan mean that statement seriously? Hmm... I thought there was a hint of sarcasm there, just as I've taken this entire thread as an indirect demonstration that the saying "abc is for the music alone*" (_whatever_ that may mean), is a worthy rule of thumb for overall design, but an unreliable guide for individual decisions. Cheers, John Walsh * Misquoted, I'm sure---sorry, I've forgotten the exact wording. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] The F > F (and F > F2) problems
James Allwright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I have taken the view that '>' is a function to be used only in a > very specific setting and trying to generalize it for other uses is > courting trouble. So, in abc2midi, ;>+ is intended for hornpipes only? What about strathspeys? Anselm To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: To tell the dancer from the dance
Well of course you need to specify the tuning for tablature. (Muse will handle *any* tuning, including balalaika where two strings are on the same pitch and left-handed guitar played right-handed where the treble string is nearest the ceiling). The only interesting question is "how much of this, if any, should be encoded in the ABC. I take the position that where the tablature was entered directly the string or fret should be recorded. Where it was generated automatically there's no need. Often you want to give either the program or the player a hint saying "play *this* note on string 4" and let him/her/it figure the rest out. Rather like bowing. You don't put a bow direction on every note. And, yes I generate G;4 for G on string 4. It could theoretically be input to the tablature generation program but it's much more likely to be output. It applies to not just one instrument but to a fairly large family, including unfretted instruments such as violin. (guitar, 5 string banjo, tenor banjo, mandolin, mandola, bouzouki, balalaika, bass guitar, violin, viola, cello, double bass, viola da gamba, cittern, vihuelha, ud, p'i-p'a, gekkin, sitar, vina, tampura, lute and no doublt many others). Laurie - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2002 8:27 PM Subject: [abcusers] Re: To tell the dancer from the dance Phil Taylor wrote >If Laurie wants to write >something like "^F9S3"e in his music to indicate that the note is to be played >at a particular point on the fingerboard I don't see why he shouldn't. Fingerboard of what instrument? Banjo? Lute? Cittern? Balalaika? Guitar tuned DADGAD? Players of all these might want to use the same idea and then you have to specify not just the instrument but the tuning as well. Getting a wee bit specific. OK, pipers have done the same but at least K:HP says loud and clear "This is a highland pipe tune" right from the start. If they are only interested in exchanging tunes between themselves, that's fine. It doesn't cause problems for anyone else. More to the point, this subject came up a while ago and Laurie gave an example of his notation - >i.e. a3;4 means play the a on the 4th string claiming precedence for the use of the semicolon over somebody else's suggested use. The ascii character set is a limited resource so if people start laying claim to characters for narrow usages we could start running out. At the time I suggested using the same notation for English concertina cross fingering and several people were quick to tell me this was a bad idea. For those who didn't realise it at the time, I was joking. I would say the same about u and v for fiddle bowing (and I play fiddle) but it's been done now so it's too late. [chords] may not be relevant to all instruments but they are relevant to a great many, not just one. >I can see that such hints could be >useful to a program which generated tablature from abc. If you are simply using it as input for a tablature generation programme fine, but if you are using it to distribute tunes to fellow musicians regardless of how they are going to use them they are just more useless clutter. Bryan Creer To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] The F > F (and F > F2) problems
I play in two bands. In one of them we tend to play hornpipes as though they were written in 12/8 (indeed I've heard other musicians call some of the tunes "12/8 hornpipes". In the other, one of the musicians tends to play *everything* dotted and hornpipes very dotted - at least 3:1. It's very hard to keep an even tempo until you reach an agreement on how dotted it is. Otherwise each of you keeps hearing the odd note from the other fellow coming in ahead of you (the late notes get drowned and don't notice) and the whole thing runs downhill and speeds up. That band plays for a display dance team and the dancers very soon let us know! I know this isn't very relevant to ABC but I thought you might find it interesting. Laurie (Retires into the corner mumbling into his beard. Remembers that he's shaved his beard off. Hides deeper in the corner). - Original Message - From: "James Allwright" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2002 11:13 AM Subject: Re: [abcusers] The F > F (and F > F2) problems On Sat 25 May 2002 at 09:39AM -0400, Laura Conrad wrote: > > Actually, abc2midi formerly assumed R:Hornpipe whenever you used > "F > F". And then assumed a different split of time, which was > appropriate for the way someone somewhere plays hornpipes. > > And when the inconsistency between abc2midi and the standard was > pointed out, the author of abc2midi decided that consistency was more > important than correctness, so he provided a workaround, rather than a > fix. The inconsistency is deliberate. The point is that when you play a hornpipe or anything else with dotted rhythm (or swing, or whatever you want to call it), keeping a 3:1 ratio is rather harder than keeping a 2:1 ratio and doesn't really add much musically apart from a certain pedantic pleasure in knowing that you are playing exactly what your notation says. This is why abc2midi makes the assumption that a>b is meant to be played as a 2:1 ratio. I think this is in accordance with the original spirit of '>' even if this is not spelt out in the standard. The effect of R:Hornpipe in abc2midi is to introduce '>' between 1/8 notes so that a piece written as a reel will come out sounding like a hornpipe. Because there is this aethetically displeasing discrepancy between notation and performance, I have taken the view that '>' is a function to be used only in a very specific setting and trying to generalize it for other uses is courting trouble. James Allwright To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: To tell the dancer from the dance
Well, I think that an annotation that says that something is supposed to be played on bagpipes (no, I don't have any) would be *at* *least* as important musically as one that says it's to be played like a hornpipe. Now there's nothing to stop you from playing a bagpipe tune on a concertina, just as there's nothing to stop you playing a hornpipe as a reel (I gather that's called a "breakdown"), in a different key and with some of the notes left out - but it will be different from the writer's written idea. Laurie - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2002 10:33 AM Subject: [abcusers] Re: To tell the dancer from the dance "Strike the concertina's melancholy string! Blow the spirit-stirring harp like anything!" W.S.Gilbert Laurie Griffiths said - >An instruction to play a note on fret 9 of the G string instead of the open >E string is musically relevant. My concertina doesn't have E or G strings and I'm not playing top E on the G string of my fiddle for anyone. >A difference between two pieces of notation is musically relevant if and >only if it means they should sound different. This and the example imply that the instrument being played is relevant. Wouldn't it be best to exclude instrument specific notation from abc? It could get very messy if you don't. Bryan Creer To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] To tell the dancer from the dance
Phil commented "The criterion of musical relevance is certainly something we should consider when discussing extensions to the language, but I don't think it's of overriding importance." I agree. Laurie To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[abcusers] Re: To tell the dancer from the dance
Phil Taylor wrote >If Laurie wants to write >something like "^F9S3"e in his music to indicate that the note is to be played >at a particular point on the fingerboard I don't see why he shouldn't. Fingerboard of what instrument? Banjo? Lute? Cittern? Balalaika? Guitar tuned DADGAD? Players of all these might want to use the same idea and then you have to specify not just the instrument but the tuning as well. Getting a wee bit specific. OK, pipers have done the same but at least K:HP says loud and clear "This is a highland pipe tune" right from the start. If they are only interested in exchanging tunes between themselves, that's fine. It doesn't cause problems for anyone else. More to the point, this subject came up a while ago and Laurie gave an example of his notation - >i.e. a3;4 means play the a on the 4th string claiming precedence for the use of the semicolon over somebody else's suggested use. The ascii character set is a limited resource so if people start laying claim to characters for narrow usages we could start running out. At the time I suggested using the same notation for English concertina cross fingering and several people were quick to tell me this was a bad idea. For those who didn't realise it at the time, I was joking. I would say the same about u and v for fiddle bowing (and I play fiddle) but it's been done now so it's too late. [chords] may not be relevant to all instruments but they are relevant to a great many, not just one. >I can see that such hints could be >useful to a program which generated tablature from abc. If you are simply using it as input for a tablature generation programme fine, but if you are using it to distribute tunes to fellow musicians regardless of how they are going to use them they are just more useless clutter. Bryan Creer To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] re : re: what does that means ?? & slurs and ties
Forgeot Eric wrote: >I can read it (even if it's not pleasant). But some abc software >can't and play badly the "legal" way of noting slurs. >If Barfly has no problem with this, that's good. >I've downloaded a mac emulator in order to try it but unfortunatly >I haven't managed yet to install a 7.0 system on the emulator so I >can't have a look at barfly. (I'd really like to !) System 7.0 was a bit buggy - try and get hold of 7.1, 7.5 or 7.6 as they should all work better. I've tried BarFly on a couple of emulators, Fusion (www.emulators.com) and Executor (www.ardi.com). Of the two, Fusion is free but very complicated to install, and requires a Mac ROM image to work. I couldn't get any sound out of it (probably due to lack of the appropriate sound card driver) but everything else worked fine. It's DOS based, and you have to re-start the machine in DOS mode to use it. Executor is very simple to install and runs under Windows. It doesn't require a Mac ROM or any special drivers to work. It doesn't support Quicktime or the modern Mac Sound manager, so again it won't play, or export midi, aiffs, QT Movies or pictures of the music in any format other than PICT. Ardi tell me that they are currently working to support Quicktime, so this should improve in future. Executor is expensive, but the free demo version does everything but print. If you need any help, mail me offlist. Phil Taylor To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] The F > F (and F > F2) problems
In iabc I've specifically not allowed F>F2, it will call it a syntax error and stop parsing. Such was my reading of the standard. If this is incorrect, somebody please spell it out for me. Thanks, Aaron To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[abcusers] re : re: what does that means ?? & slurs and ties
It's strange because I'm using the email addess I submited to subscribe. Maybe it doesn't like my name : "=?iso-8859-1?q?Forgeot=20Eric?=" kindly submited by yahoo (I can't change this). >separate issues. And neither of them has anything whatsoever to do with >the square or curved bracket often placed over notes in a tuplet. I agree, I didn't say that we should confuse slurs or ties with triplets, but the problem is only because of the multiple brackets we are forced to use in order to notate slurs. Jack Campin said : >Just learn to read it that way. And a triplet sign in ABC should I can read it (even if it's not pleasant). But some abc software can't and play badly the "legal" way of noting slurs. If Barfly has no problem with this, that's good. I've downloaded a mac emulator in order to try it but unfortunatly I haven't managed yet to install a 7.0 system on the emulator so I can't have a look at barfly. (I'd really like to !) >between tieing and slurring on to the first note of a triplet, and your >suggested change would preclude that. I suggest nothing like that. Many users seems to use ties instead of slurs. I suggested only to make them both legal (in the standard). What can do more can do less. I will try to use brackets for slurs when it's possible. If not (if it may confuse) I'll use - instead. For Frank : This tune (Springleik) was found on the website of Folldal Spellmannslag ( http://home.no.net/janwes/folldal/ ) as an example of the music of their area. Most of their tunes are after Trondgård. If I remember well Jan Wesenberg has learnt some tunes from Trondgård himself. You could contact him to know more. They have released a CD, "Óslift", you should check it. Anbefalt på det sterkeste ! I have a couple more I transcribed by hear, some of them are not very accurate. Ask if you want them. ___ Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français ! Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] The F > F (and F > F2) problems
> "James" == James Allwright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: James> The inconsistency is deliberate. The point is that when you play a James> hornpipe or anything else with dotted rhythm (or swing, or whatever James> you want to call it), keeping a 3:1 ratio is rather harder than James> keeping a 2:1 ratio and doesn't really add much musically apart from James> a certain pedantic pleasure in knowing that you are playing exactly James> what your notation says. This is why abc2midi makes the assumption James> that a>b is meant to be played as a 2:1 ratio. I think this is in James> accordance with the original spirit of '>' even if this is not spelt James> out in the standard. Not only is it not spelt out in the standard, something completely different from this *is* spelt out in the (draft) standard. Which you haven't ever proposed changing. James> The effect of R:Hornpipe in abc2midi is to introduce '>' between 1/8 James> notes so that a piece written as a reel will come out sounding like James> a hornpipe. Nobody's complaining about a player program changing the way the music is played because of an explicit R: statement. (As long as this is documented.) James> Because there is this aethetically displeasing discrepancy between James> notation and performance, I have taken the view that '>' is a James> function to be used only in a very specific setting and trying to James> generalize it for other uses is courting trouble. Again, the draft standard, and all of the experienced ABC writers I know, disagree. '>' is a very useful way to make the ABC more readable, as long as it produces the intended effect. I agree that in many contexts the literal meaning specified by the standard, and expected by most users, is aesthetically displeasing, and I support the "%%MIDI ratio" command for changing it, but the default value should be the one specified by the standard. For those who haven't looked at it lately, the draft standard says: Broken rhythms == A common occurrence in traditional music is the use of a dotted or broken rhythm. For example, hornpipes, strathspeys and certain morris jigs all have dotted eighth notes followed by sixteenth notes as well as vice-versa in the case of strathspeys. To support this abc notation uses a > to mean `the previous note is dotted, the next note halved' and < to mean `the previous note is halved, the next dotted'. Thus the following lines all mean the same thing (the third version is recommended): L:1/16 a3b cd3 a2b2c2d2 L:1/8 a3/2b/2 c/2d3/2 abcd L:1/8 a>b cmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] , http://www.laymusic.org/ ) (617) 661-8097 fax: (801) 365-6574 233 Broadway, Cambridge, MA 02139 (If I haven't invited you to my party on June 2, I'm sure it's an oversight.) To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] Re: To tell the dancer from the dance
Bryan Creer wrote: >"Strike the concertina's melancholy string! >Blow the spirit-stirring harp like anything!" > >W.S.Gilbert > >Laurie Griffiths said - > >>An instruction to play a note on fret 9 of the G string instead of the open >>E string is musically relevant. > >My concertina doesn't have E or G strings and I'm not playing top E on the G >string of my fiddle for anyone. > >>A difference between two pieces of notation is musically relevant if and >>only if it means they should sound different. > >This and the example imply that the instrument being played is relevant. >Wouldn't it be best to exclude instrument specific notation from abc? It >could get very messy if you don't. That's a purist approach. While it would be nice to have a notation system uncluttered by instrument specific notation it would rule out a lot of useful stuff which is already in abc, e.g. the HP and Hp key signatures, u and v in fiddle music, and even [chords], since they are only relevant to polyphonic instruments. The difficulty is to know where to draw the line. Instrument-specific markings should not make it difficult to read or parse the abc. If Laurie wants to write something like "^F9S3"e in his music to indicate that the note is to be played at a particular point on the fingerboard I don't see why he shouldn't. The result _does_ sound different, and is relevant to a guitarist playing from the music, and although I doubt if anybody will ever write a player program capable of dealing with such subtleties, I can see that such hints could be useful to a program which generated tablature from abc. Having said that, it's clear that if he wanted to mark every note with fret/string markings, he ought to be using tablature in the first place, rather than abc. Phil Taylor To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] The F > F (and F > F2) problems
On Sat 25 May 2002 at 09:39AM -0400, Laura Conrad wrote: > > Actually, abc2midi formerly assumed R:Hornpipe whenever you used > "F > F". And then assumed a different split of time, which was > appropriate for the way someone somewhere plays hornpipes. > > And when the inconsistency between abc2midi and the standard was > pointed out, the author of abc2midi decided that consistency was more > important than correctness, so he provided a workaround, rather than a > fix. The inconsistency is deliberate. The point is that when you play a hornpipe or anything else with dotted rhythm (or swing, or whatever you want to call it), keeping a 3:1 ratio is rather harder than keeping a 2:1 ratio and doesn't really add much musically apart from a certain pedantic pleasure in knowing that you are playing exactly what your notation says. This is why abc2midi makes the assumption that a>b is meant to be played as a 2:1 ratio. I think this is in accordance with the original spirit of '>' even if this is not spelt out in the standard. The effect of R:Hornpipe in abc2midi is to introduce '>' between 1/8 notes so that a piece written as a reel will come out sounding like a hornpipe. Because there is this aethetically displeasing discrepancy between notation and performance, I have taken the view that '>' is a function to be used only in a very specific setting and trying to generalize it for other uses is courting trouble. James Allwright To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
[abcusers] Re: To tell the dancer from the dance
"Strike the concertina's melancholy string! Blow the spirit-stirring harp like anything!" W.S.Gilbert Laurie Griffiths said - >An instruction to play a note on fret 9 of the G string instead of the open >E string is musically relevant. My concertina doesn't have E or G strings and I'm not playing top E on the G string of my fiddle for anyone. >A difference between two pieces of notation is musically relevant if and >only if it means they should sound different. This and the example imply that the instrument being played is relevant. Wouldn't it be best to exclude instrument specific notation from abc? It could get very messy if you don't. Bryan Creer To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
