Re: Convincing my company to use Cake
I could just do that yeah - I will have to look into it some more :) But yes, the IonCube tools do allow for the copyright notices to be left unencrypted, as I thought. The client is more likely to sue us if they manage to break something. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Convincing my company to use Cake
Couldnt you just encrypt the App related files (objects, controllers and views etc.) which you created within the Cake framework specific to your application? At least then there is no copyright issues as it is your code. That way the client simply cant modify the application you have built for them. Theres no point them messing with the Cake files as nothing could be acheived by doing so; if they do just charge them for refreshing the Cake libraries. :o) ski.nalicio.us --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Convincing my company to use Cake
you can sell your cake-based apps for money, but you are not allowed to encrypt/remove copyright/... from the cake files. if your company doesnt know what the benefits of a framework are, i wonder what kind of management is leading that company. I can't imagine any software company *not* using a framework (many of them write their own) obviously a framework takes away the stupid,annoying, repetitive tasks so the developer can focus on the real problem. Cakephp does a pretty good job at providing help for making many things very easy, and still not standing in the way if you want to do it the other way. it makes things more manageable, more abstract. On the other hand, there is a learning curve you must go through, and the performance isn't always optimal, but these points are easily outweighted by the improved workflow when using the framework. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Convincing my company to use Cake
You can use Cake, AND Smarty! What are your other options to be honest? Write it all from scratch? Use another framework? Don't forget open source means community, and the Cake community is growing rapidly, so most problems you'll encounter others have encountered. Cake is also growing rapidly, I must say I'm nothing short of impressed at the rate of new versions, updates and of course tutorials and components being added by the users themselves. Disadvantages? Well, if your after a Cake expert to walk in and help you on a project, perhaps someone who is a PHP programmer who has not used MVC before, that might cause some delays while he learns the ins and outs. I can't think of any more to be honest. You write code, you finish an application. Inbetween that, the team gets a kick out of using a moden, excellent and efficient framework, and probably gets to go home on time. Oh wait I know another disadvantage, once you start using cake you begin to forget everything else. It's like the brain getting used to wearing glasses. The picture is better, it just makes sense ;-) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Convincing my company to use Cake
Luckily, I've been using Cake myself for the past couple of months - so I'm about as much as we're likely to need for the moment :) The other options are: keep doing things the same way they've always been done here (we have a function library, but the functions it includes are pretty specific to certain projects and thus useless on a general level), or to write our own framework - which from an ownership point of view makes sense, but less so from the point of view of hey, this is a huge job, and it still might have security issues I've missed. I've also encountered the problem with having trouble going back to basic PHP code after a few months of baking. Really, I had to relearn a lot of my old techniques. Although I think being exposed to Cake has helped, my code is far more organised now just as a matter of course. I guess we'll have to see which way we wind up going. I personally wouldn't mind the challenge of writing our own framework from scratch, but I have no illusions about the size of the job and the fact that I'd effectively be responsible for all of it, good or bad. Luckily there's only one other developer in the company at the moment so training wouldn't be that hard to manage. I'm also trying to push for source control, I know it probably seems a bit backwards to some of you but I don't think the company has ever felt this sort of thing was worth developing in the past - I'm working towards bringing them up to modern techniques, so that we can embrace new developments instead of ignoring them. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Convincing my company to use Cake
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: you can sell your cake-based apps for money, but you are not allowed to encrypt/remove copyright/... from the cake files. ...even from files from 'app' directory, which is quite annoying as it (besides other things) little bit complicate auto generated documentation for company projects etc, as some procedural files (especially app/webroot/index.php and app/config/*) are in project documentation mentioned/linked/with source code. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Convincing my company to use Cake
This might unfortunately be a sticking point. We're in a position with one of our clients where we simply can't trust them not to tamper with the code we've written for them. This would be ok, but anything that goes wrong with it they blame us for even when it's their fault. So, we use IonCube Encoder on all the work we do for them before it gets uploaded to their server. If we're not allowed to do that under the license, then I reckon the directors will be saying no to Cake (and all other open-source frameworks, for that matter). We're happy to respect copyright and leave those messages in place, but the code itself needs to be protected from tampering. It's a bit of a bugger really! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Convincing my company to use Cake
On 10/17/06, MrTufty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This might unfortunately be a sticking point. We're in a position with one of our clients where we simply can't trust them not to tamper with the code we've written for them. This would be ok, but anything that goes wrong with it they blame us for even when it's their fault. So, we use IonCube Encoder on all the work we do for them before it gets uploaded to their server. Then I suggest your company dump the client. ;) I am one of those people strongly opposed to encoding anything, so perhaps my opinion should be discounted when it comes to this thread. I was able to use Cake for a project at my work because the company doesn't care what technologies we use because we're responsible for maintaining them as well. Probably a unique situation. -- Chris Hartjes The greatest inefficiencies come from solving problems you will never have. -- Rasmus Lerdorf @TheBallpark - http://www.littlehart.net/attheballpark @TheKeyboard - http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Convincing my company to use Cake
MrTufty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] We're in a position with one of our clients where we simply can't trust them not to tamper with the code we've written for them. This would be ok, but anything that goes wrong with it they blame us for even when it's their fault. [...] Why not checksum the files when you upload them and politely refuse to support changed files? Of course, they need to agree to the limited support terms when you work for them. If they dispute it, a diff should show the changes done after it left you. Like Chris Hartjes suggested, it might be best to dump that client, if they want more support than you want to offer. Regards, -- MJ Ray [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.ttllp.co.uk +44-870-4321-9-10 Web, localisation, koha, databases, GNU/Linux and statistics. Registered in England and Wales, partnership number OC303457 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Convincing my company to use Cake
Sadly, not my decision to make... although that checksum idea might not be a bad one for future reference, I'll put that forward to the directors. I don't think we'll be dumping them though, they really are our main client at the moment and their business is worth a huge amount. Plus they'd probably sue us if we did dump them, given the system is half-developed. This doesn't mean we can't use Cake for future projects where encoding is unnecessary :) I reckon this client might have issues with the use of code that we haven't developed in house in any case - they're a real nightmare for security, unwilling to allow any of our team to work on stuff for them from home, even via VPN. And yet their server went down the other day because 'someone' was on there deleting files :-S I would be very interested to know the opinion of the Cake developers as to the encoding issue though :-) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Convincing my company to use Cake
On 10/17/06, MJ Ray [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: MrTufty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] We're in a position with one of our clients where we simply can't trust them not to tamper with the code we've written for them. This would be ok, but anything that goes wrong with it they blame us for even when it's their fault. [...] Why not checksum the files when you upload them and politely refuse to support changed files? Of course, they need to agree to the limited support terms when you work for them. If they dispute it, a diff should show the changes done after it left you. I really like this idea, given that you can't just dump the client. They sound like a bunch of a$$hole$ anyway. No amount of money is worth a bad client. -- Chris Hartjes The greatest inefficiencies come from solving problems you will never have. -- Rasmus Lerdorf @TheBallpark - http://www.littlehart.net/attheballpark @TheKeyboard - http://www.littlehart.net/atthekeyboard --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Convincing my company to use Cake
You're telling me... I've been pushing the need since I started here to finish up a couple of other projects that are nearly ready to go online... trouble is this client takes up so much of our time, with us being only a small team, that we don't really get chance to tackle anything else. I'll be glad when we've polished this one off to be honest but our timescale at the minute suggests we'll be dealing with them until at least next May and probably beyond. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Convincing my company to use Cake
IANAL, but I think that the no encryption/modification restrictions apply to an application that you're either selling or giving away. If you supply your client with an un-modified Cake Core, you've lived up to the license. Anything they do after that is for their own use. There's nothing stopping me or anyone else from making any changes I want to the Cake Core files for my own use. What I am restricted from doing is making changes (i.e., removing the copyright) and *re-distributing* them. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Convincing my company to use Cake
I'll ask gwoo to weigh in here, since he's the IP attorney, but I'm pretty sure the only stipulations with the MIT License are with regard to the copyright notice. So if you wanted to go to the trouble, you could remove the copyright from the files, encode them, then add the copyright back at the top of the file. Also, with those auto-documentor tools, I would think they would let you exclude certain files from being processed. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Convincing my company to use Cake
Ok. I believe the IonCube tools allow for copyright notices to be left unencoded anyway, I'd have to check the documentation to be sure but I'm sure it mentioned something along those lines. On Oct 17, 3:51 pm, nate [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'll ask gwoo to weigh in here, since he's the IP attorney, but I'm pretty sure the only stipulations with the MIT License are with regard to the copyright notice. So if you wanted to go to the trouble, you could remove the copyright from the files, encode them, then add the copyright back at the top of the file. Also, with those auto-documentor tools, I would think they would let you exclude certain files from being processed. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Cake PHP group. To post to this group, send email to cake-php@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/cake-php -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
