Re: [Computer-go] Invisible: The Brave new World in Go

[Lukas van de Wiel]

Hi Ingo,

Thank you for the idea. Sounds like an excellent study-read for the
summer holiday. :-)

Best wishes
Lukas

On 7/27/17, "Ingo Althöfer" <3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de> wrote:
> Hello,
> I was able to buy a copy of the brandnew book
> "Invisible: The Games of AlphaGo", just yesterday
> during the European Go Congress.
>
> The book is paperback and has 272 pages. It was compiled,
> edited, and translated by the Finnish pro player Antti Toermaenen.
> Published by Hebsacker Verlag, Hamburg.
>
> I published the following review on Amazon:
>
> ***
> The computer program AlphaGo has changed the world of Go within
> only 15 months. This book presents all games played by AlphaGo
> in public between March 2016 and May 2017, with commentary by
> several professional players: Mitani Tetsuya (7-dan), Shiung Feng
> (6-dan), Ohashi Hirofumi (6-dan), Murakami Akihide (3-dan), and
> Antti Toermaenen (1-dan). Antti Toermaenen has also done a superb
> job in collecting the material from his colleagues and bringing
> it in good shape.
>
> One disclaimer: Do not mix this book up with the classic
> "Invincible - the games of Shusaku" !
>
> The book is written in simple English. Each reader who is familiar
> with the game of Go, will understand enough to study this book with
> win. --- Das Buch ist in einfachem Englisch geschrieben. Jeder Leser,
> der mit dem Go-Spiel vertraut ist, wird dieses Buch mit Gewinn
> studieren können.
>
> Highly recommended!
> **
>
> Ingo.
>
> PS. I included the sentence in German, because the book was published
> by a German company. I do not know if or when the book will be
> included in Amazon's portfolio.
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Re: [Computer-go] Aya's selfplay games for training value network

[Lukas van de Wiel]

Hi Yamashita

Thanks you for uploading them, and explaining how they are organised.
Your contribution is much appreciated!

Lukas

On 4/5/17, Hiroshi Yamashita  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I have uploaded Aya's selfplay games.
> There are about 1,440,000 games.
> Selfplay program strength is about KGS 4d and 5d.
>
> Aya's selfplay games for training value network
> http://www.yss-aya.com/ayaself/ayaself.html
>
> Using these games, KGS 4d over, tygem 9d, and GoGoD, I made slightly
>  (+70 Elo) better value network than using KGS 4d over, tygem 9d,
>  and GoGoD. White tends to win in KGS komi 0.5 games. So I deleted
>  41% white win games in komi 0.5 game.
>
> Value network is 64 Filters, 14 Layers with batch normalization.
> Caffe's prototxt is
> http://www.yss-aya.com/ayaself/20170405aya_value.tar.gz
>
> A game has 4 parts.
>
> 1. First move is selected from opening book. And rorated 8 symmetry
> randomly.
> 2. 2nd - 16th moves are selected randomly from Policy network probability.
> 3. 2000 playouts/move self play. And it ends when a player resigns.
> 4. resume with 300 playouts/move selfplay from resign position. And remove
> all dead stones. This 300 playouts/move selfplay is about KGS 3d.
> Only root node is created by Policy network.
>
> Komi is 7.5, Chinese rule.
>
> Note:
> If Aya plays (1,1) or (1,19) or (19,1) or (19,19) or (9,1)(=J19) within
>  16 moves, it is bug. It should be deleted.
> If original game result "GN[B+R," and game result "RE[B+3.5]" is different
>  (like RE[W+5.5]), it should be deleted. 300 playout/move makes mistakes.
>
> Thanks,
> Hiroshi Yamashita
>
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Re: [Computer-go] I can't send messages to the list any more

[Lukas van de Wiel]

Well, Remi.

Obviously, you still can, somehow.

Lukas

On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 10:18 AM, Rémi Coulom  wrote:

> : host mail.eugeneweb.com[184.105.139.163]
> said:
> 554 5.7.1 : Sender address rejected: Access
> denied (in
> reply to RCPT TO command)
>
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Re: [Computer-go] Notes from the Asilomar Conference on Beneficial AI

[Lukas van de Wiel]

and 3-3 invasions very early in the game.

On 2/10/17, Robert Jasiek  wrote:
> On 10.02.2017 12:56, adrian.b.rob...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>  AlphaGo is playing moves and
>>> styles that all human masters had dismissed as stupid centuries ago."
>>  we may learn little more than what mathematicians
>> learn when a computer-assisted proof consisting of several
>> hundred pages is generated for a conjecture like Fermat's last
>> theorem.
>
> The "novelties" AlphaGo shows are not new to humans. Just new to the
> vast majority of human players having followed mainstream strategy and
> style. Players with highly creative, flexible styles have not been
> surprised by AlphaGo's moves - only by AlphaGo's "reading" depth.
>
> --
> robert jasiek
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Re: [Computer-go] it's alphago

[Lukas van de Wiel]

A project similar to the Great Mersenne Prime search might be a
possibility to distribute the work of training the network among many
enthousiasts, and to keep improving it by self play.

On 1/6/17, Andy  wrote:
> What is Ray? Strongest open source bot? Anyone have a link to it?
>
> On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 3:39 AM, Hiroshi Yamashita  wrote:
>
>> If value net is the most important part for over pro level, the problem
>> is
>> making strong selfplay games.
>>
>> 1. make 30 million selfplay games.
>> 2. make value net.
>> 3. use this value net for selfplay program.
>> 4. go to (1)
>>
>> I don't know when the progress will stop by this loop.
>> But if once strong enough selfplay games are published, everyone can make
>> pro level program.
>> 30 million is big number. It needs many computers.
>> Computer Go community may be able to share this work.
>> I can offer Aya, it is not open-source though. Maybe Ray(strongest open
>> source so far)  is better choice.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Hiroshi Yamashita
>>
>> - Original Message - From: 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Friday, January 06, 2017 4:50 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Computer-go] it's alphago
>>
>>
>> Competitive with Alpha-go, one developer, not possible. I do think it is
>> possible to make a pro level program with one person or a small team.
>> Look
>> at Deep Zen and Aya for example. I expect I’ll get there (pro level) with
>> Many Faces as well.
>>
>> David
>>
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Re: [Computer-go] it's alphago

[Lukas van de Wiel]

It helps a lot if you have to do it as a job, as a paid researcher. I once
tried it as a volunteer job for a company I worked for at the time, but we
only got the basic infrastructure going, after half a year of work, with
two people.

We were trying a neural network approach, while everybody said NN was done
for in AI go, and we had to do MCTS. We were stubborn, though. As we did
not get paid for it, we essentially could do whatever we liked.

We also both had social lives that we did not want to neglect totally, so
we might have been able to do more, had we been more dedicated. ;-)

On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 7:35 PM, Adrian Petrescu  wrote:

> As an individual? Probably, yes.
>
> On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 1:34 PM, Xavier Combelle  > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Le 05/01/2017 à 02:16, Yamato a écrit :
>> > Yes, it is AlphaGo. I am relieved that DeepMind clarified this.
>> >
>> > Honestly I got a little frustrated that many people didn't think that
>> > was AlphaGo. It was almost clear to me because I know the difficulty of
>> > developing AlphaGo-like bots.
>> thanks for this insight, if I understand well developing a bot
>> competitive with alphago
>> is nearly an impossible task?
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>
>
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Re: [Computer-go] ADMIN: Maintenance, a few days downtime

[Lukas van de Wiel]

Well, now that we all know the Master was AlphaGo after all, the downtime
is not so critical anymore. :-)
Take your time and thank you for your effort in keeping the server working.

Cheers
Lukas

On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 11:52 AM, Rémi Coulom  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> All the SGF posts by Andries were classified as spam for me.
>
> I recently set up a mail server to handle user registrations at
> crazy-sensei.com. Here is a collection of links that helped me to improve
> the chances of having registration emails reach their recipients. Maybe
> they can help you:
>
> https://www.exratione.com/2014/07/setting-up-spf-and-
> dkim-for-an-ubuntu-1404-mail-server/
> https://www.skelleton.net/2015/03/21/how-to-eliminate-
> spam-and-protect-your-name-with-dmarc/
> https://help.directadmin.com/item.php?id=207
> https://blog.stickleback.dk/getting-off-hotmails-blocklist/
>
> http://dkimvalidator.com/
> https://www.port25.com/authentication-checker/
> https://www.mail-tester.com/
>
> The diagnostics of www.mail-tester.com were really useful. I bet this
> mailing list would have a very low score.
>
> The IP of my server was blacklisted by hotmail. I had to contact them to
> be removed from the list.
>
> Setting up a mail server such that sent mail actually reaches its
> recipients is a bit complicated.
>
> Thanks for managing this list.
>
> Rémi
>
> - Mail original -
> De: v...@computer-go.org
> À: computer-go@computer-go.org
> Envoyé: Mardi 3 Janvier 2017 01:37:26
> Objet: Re: [Computer-go] ADMIN: Maintenance, a few days downtime
>
> Hi,
> I haven't done anything yet, family showed up and put
> everything on hold.
> I'm curious what may have been different.  I have
> approved some posts that were held for various reasons, but,
> while seldom, that happens regularly.
> If you like, indicate which they were.
>
> Thanks,
> Michael
>
> On Sat, 31 Dec 2016, Rémi Coulom wrote:
>
> > Recent emails to the list are now classified as spam in my mail client.
> I did not take the time to check the reason in details. But it never
> happened in the past. Maybe you should check whether your SPF record is set
> correctly.
> >
> > Rémi
> >
> > - Mail original -
> > De: v...@computer-go.org
> > À: computer-go@computer-go.org, wvgc...@computer-go.org
> > Envoyé: Mercredi 28 Décembre 2016 19:56:04
> > Objet: [Computer-go] ADMIN: Maintenance, a few days downtime
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >   I will be bringing the email lists down for a few
> > days while I rebuild the servers.  There should be no
> > apparent change.
> >   It's seems like a good time, with little traffic,
> > so I'll take it down in a few hours.  I will post when it's
> > back.  It will have a new IP.
> >
> >   Thanks,
> >   Michael
> > ___
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> > ___
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Re: [Computer-go] ADMIN: Maintenance ?!?!

[Lukas van de Wiel]

Seconded. If the maintenance could be postponed to when we know who or what
is behind the Master account, that would be great!

Cheers
Lukas

On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 6:17 AM, "Ingo Althöfer" <3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de>
wrote:

> Please, no maintenance right now.
> The days in computer go are just so hot.
>
> The team of "Master" offered 14,000 Dollars
> for any being beating the bot on January 02 or 03.
>
> We need the possibility to discuss this topic in realtime.
>
> Thx, ingo.
>
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Re: [Computer-go] Are the AlphaGols coming?

[Lukas van de Wiel]

Hi all:

From the thread we already read Aja's enlightenment:

/u/emdio pointed out:
From a previous time in which a bot was suspicious to be AlphaGo:
"I can confirm it's not AlphaGo or a weaker version of AlphaGo. We
haven't decided to play AlphaGo online yet, but when the decision is
made we will use AlphaGo(P) on tygem and AlphaGoBot on KGS.
Aja"

Cheers and happy new year!
Lukas

On 1/2/17, "Ingo Althöfer" <3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de> wrote:
> Hello Paweł,
>
>> There have been another 8 games on Foxwq server:
>> ...
>> Totally, 38-0. It looks like a kind, indirect (yet powerful), message
>> from DeepMind to Chinese Go Association: "Please, let us try a real
>> challenge, like 3-handicap games, it does not really make much sense
>> to play even anymore".
>
> So, do you want to say that "Master" might be AlphaGo?
> From the disucssion I thought that "Master" was a chinese bot.
>
> If Aja is reading: can you enlighten us?
>
> Cheers, Ingo.
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Re: [Computer-go] Go Tournament with hinteresting rules

[Lukas van de Wiel]

So why not add the amount of points equal to your score? You win by 16.5
points? You get 16.5 points. You lose by 4.5. You lose 4.5 points. At the
end of the tournament, there will be contestants with a negative score, but
it seems a more straightforward system to me, and the players losing only
by a small amount will still rate righter than those that are slaughtered.

On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 11:56 PM, Erik van der Werf  wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 10:58 PM, "Ingo Althöfer" <3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de>
> wrote:
> > Playing under such conditions might be a challenge for the bots
>
> Why? Do you think the humans will collude?  ;-)
>
> Erik.
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Re: [Computer-go] joseki tutors

[Lukas van de Wiel]

Just to add to the long list, for information, the Joseki tutor I use
almost daily is:

http://brugo.be/

A Belgian site, but it is in English.

Cheers
Lukas


On Sat, Apr 2, 2016 at 1:59 PM, djhbrown .  wrote:

> thank you Robert, Petr and Michael for sharing;  i have to admit i was
> surprised by the number of joseki tutors out there; i vaguely remember
> it was all started by smartgo, wasn't it?  btw, does smartgo run
> properly under wine on Linux?
>
> I am bemused by josekipedia's use of vox populi to vote for the
> "ideal" move; in this respect, it's a human-world version of
> Monte-Carlo :)  PS i don't know about you, but i only want to see
> which choices are good - i don't care about the bad choices, i can
> make those by myself!
>
> just imagine if all the joseki tool tutor creators were to get
> together with some usability experts and jointly produce an offline
> Multivarsity [1] tutor with satnav-style voiceovers instead of text
> that could be downloaded and integrated into a playing client, so
> klutzes like me could learn as we do, instead of doing and learning
> being separate activities, or clumsily having to flip between one
> window and another (perhaps it would be easier with two screens,
> keyboards and mice, one in each hand like a pianist!).
>
> back in the Mediaeval days, there were no schools whipping kids like
> slave-sheep into mindset corrals, and youngsters learned trade skills
> by serving apprenticeships in a meaningful environment, learning as
> they were doing.  i was one of the last lucky few, having been able to
> earn the princely sum of 325 quid pa as a programming apprentice at
> age 16 [aside: Marconi Research Labs Automation Division that hired me
> rented me out to Radar Division (the contract holder) for 5 grand pa -
> by the end of the project i was engaged on, Radar Division had made a
> loss whereas Automation Division had made a profit but i can't
> take all the credit for that! :) ]
>
> when i look at what has happened to the education system in the last
> 30 years, i cannot but weep for the young at how capitalism and
> competition forcing mother and daughter to work for the yankee dollar
> has turned the school systems of the world from a service to the poor
> to a disservice of servitude for all but the rich in which kids are
> treated like stones on the board being played by players who only want
> to beat each other at their game of trying to be number 1 on some
> arbitrary ladder of arbitrary metrics derived from arbitrary marking
> of arbitrary examinations on arbitrary content.
>
> perhaps computers can come to the rescue in education as well as in
> Go, as more and more routine operations - such as choosing a joseki -
> can be automated.
>
> [1]
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSL-TuMlQZo=9=PL4y5WtsvtduozO-9oG5nZZI8IPUD6EDif
>
> Addendum:  edited copy of my previously posted functionality wishlist,
> for consideration by tutor programmers:
>
> the thing about josekis is not where you start, nor even where you
> step, but where you end up
>
> i'd love to have a joseki tutor sitting inside a game playing client which
> could
> assist me by offerring the following information display and
> navigation functions:
>
> - click on last move to initiate a matchup with the tutor and start an
> overlay
> flip-through by spacebar of just the endpoints of the main lines of
> variations starting from there, so i can see which variation would
> suit the game position i am in. that way i can start to learn where
> josekis end instead of just where they start and how they branch.
>
> the endpoints of the main lines of alternate lines can be viewed by
> spacebar after navigating:
>
> - right/left arrows crawl forward/back along a branch
> - up/down arrows jump up/down to the start of the next variation up or
> down (think of the tree as being laid out sideways), regardless of
> wherever you are on a branch.
>
> - Enter on first move of variation being shown to make its move on the
> gameboard,
> - esc to return to own play mode.
>
> i am unaware of any existing client/editor/tutor that has these
> variation visualisation and
> navigation buttons in just the way i have described.
>
> usability is inversely proportional to programmability; my suggestions
> would make life
> easy for users but be a bit of work for a developer.
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Re: [Computer-go] Would a larger board (25x25) dramatically reduce AlphaGos skill?

[Lukas van de Wiel]

It would reduce Alphago, because there is less training material in the
form of high-dan-games, to train the policy network.

It would also reduce the skill of a human opponent, because (s)he would
have less experience on a larger board, just as AlphaGo.

It would be fun to see which can adapt better.

Cheers
Lukas

On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 1:18 PM, Ray Tayek  wrote:

> On 3/22/2016 11:25 AM, Tom M wrote:
>
>> I suspect that even with a similarly large training sample for
>> initialization that AlphaGo would suffer a major reduction in apparent
>> skill level.
>>
> i think a human would also.
>
>>The CNN would require many more layers of convolution;
>> the valuation of positions would be much more uncertain; play in the
>> corner, edges, and center would all be more complicated patterns, and
>> there would be far more good candidates to consider at each ply and
>> rollouts would be much less stable and less accurate.
>>
> yes.
>
> the normal board size is 19x19 because the amount of territory in the
> sides and corners is slightly larger than the amount of territory in the
> middle.
>
> thanks
>
> --
> Honesty is a very expensive gift. So, don't expect it from cheap people -
> Warren Buffett
> http://tayek.com/
>
>
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Re: [Computer-go] March KGS bot tournament - slow

[Lukas van de Wiel]

Aja Huang is on the mailing list, and he is also on the compyer-go mailing
list. So the AlphaGo is aware. :-)

On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 9:29 AM, uurtamo .  wrote:

> David,
>
> It'd be cool if they were willing to spend a few $K to participate (Just a
> guess about what the CPU time would cost). They've proven their strength (4
> - 1 means easily pro strength, I think), so it would be a gift to the
> community if they participated.
>
> steve
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 9:15 AM, David Doshay  wrote:
>
>> Is there any way to forward this to the AlphaGo team? Comparing AlphaGo
>> to the regular set of participants would be enlightening.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> David G Doshay
>>
>> ddos...@mac.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 17, Mar 2016, at 5:57 AM, Nick Wedd  wrote:
>>
>> The March KGS slow bot tournament will start on Sunday, March 27th, at 22:00
>> UTC and end by 14:00 UTC on Wednesday 30th.  It will use 19x19 boards,
>> with time limits of 235 minutes (almost four hours) each plus fast Canadian
>> overtime, and komi of 7.5.  See
>> http://www.gokgs.com/tournInfo.jsp?id=1020
>>
>> Please register by emailing me, with the words "KGS Tournament Registration"
>> in the email title, at mapr...@gmail.com .
>>
>> Nick
>> --
>> Nick Wedd  mapr...@gmail.com
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Re: [Computer-go] Sedol won 4th game!

[Lukas van de Wiel]

Congratz to Lee Sedol!

Actually from Black S 11 you knew things were going downhill for AlphaGo.

Cheers
Lukas

On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 9:55 PM, Hiroshi Yamashita  wrote:

> (;GM[1]SZ[19]
> PB[AlphaGo]
> PW[Lee Sedol]
> DT[2016-03-13]RE[W+R]KM[7.5]TM[7200]RU[Chinese]
> ;B[pd];W[dp];B[cd];W[qp];B[op];W[oq];B[nq];W[pq];B[cn];W[fq]
> ;B[mp];W[po];B[iq];W[ec];B[hd];W[cg];B[ed];W[cj];B[dc];W[bp]
> ;B[nc];W[qi];B[ep];W[eo];B[dk];W[fp];B[ck];W[dj];B[ej];W[ei]
> ;B[fi];W[eh];B[fh];W[bj];B[fk];W[fg];B[gg];W[ff];B[gf];W[mc]
> ;B[md];W[lc];B[nb];W[id];B[hc];W[jg];B[pj];W[pi];B[oj];W[oi]
> ;B[ni];W[nh];B[mh];W[ng];B[mg];W[mi];B[nj];W[mf];B[li];W[ne]
> ;B[nd];W[mj];B[lf];W[mk];B[me];W[nf];B[lh];W[qj];B[kk];W[ik]
> ;B[ji];W[gh];B[hj];W[ge];B[he];W[fd];B[fc];W[ki];B[jj];W[lj]
> ;B[kh];W[jh];B[ml];W[nk];B[ol];W[ok];B[pk];W[pl];B[qk];W[nl]
> ;B[kj];W[ii];B[rk];W[om];B[pg];W[ql];B[cp];W[co];B[oe];W[rl]
> ;B[sk];W[rj];B[hg];W[ij];B[km];W[gi];B[fj];W[jl];B[kl];W[gl]
> ;B[fl];W[gm];B[ch];W[ee];B[eb];W[bg];B[dg];W[eg];B[en];W[fo]
> ;B[df];W[dh];B[im];W[hk];B[bn];W[if];B[gd];W[fe];B[hf];W[ih]
> ;B[bh];W[ci];B[ho];W[go];B[or];W[rg];B[dn];W[cq];B[pr];W[qr]
> ;B[rf];W[qg];B[qf];W[jc];B[gr];W[sf];B[se];W[sg];B[rd];W[bl]
> ;B[bk];W[ak];B[cl];W[hn];B[in];W[hp];B[fr];W[er];B[es];W[ds]
> ;B[ah];W[ai];B[kd];W[ie];B[kc];W[kb];B[gk];W[ib];B[qh];W[rh]
> ;B[qs];W[rs];B[oh];W[sl];B[of];W[sj];B[ni];W[nj];B[oo];W[jp])
>
> Hiroshi Yamashita
>
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Lukas van de Wiel]

This would be many thousands of dollars per day. A single game would be
more than a thousand dollars in total costs.
I do not think a kickstarter project or so would be successful, as the go
community is simply not *that* big...

On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 1:17 PM, Gonçalo Mendes Ferreira <go...@sapo.pt>
wrote:

> It does seem unlikely for DeepMind not to move on to "bigger" things,
> but maybe the Go community can make some kind of fundraiser to keep an
> instance of AlphaGo playing 24/7? I think there are some websites for
> this kind of thing. Someone would be in charge of scheduling time for it
> to play pros, other programs, and maybe play online on breaks. Just an
> idea, oh Google overlords that watch all communications.
>
> Gonçalo
>
> On 13/03/2016 00:06, Lukas van de Wiel wrote:
> > Oh, I did not say that it would not be beneficial, to AlphaGo, and to the
> > people playing it, and to the Go community as a whole, but still, it will
> > have to come from somewhere. Just the electricity bill alone would be
> > hair-raising.
> > And the big-scale benefits in prestige and marketing are over, with this
> > victory.
> >
> > It would be cool to build on the works of AlphaGo, and I would like to
> see
> > it as much as the next enthusiast, but I doubt the feasibility...
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 1:01 PM, Thomas Wolf <tw...@brocku.ca> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, Lukas van de Wiel wrote:
> >>
> >> And the hardware available for this tournament was tremendous. It
> remains
> >>> to be seen whether the hardware and the people
> >>> maintaining it would be available for a longer period. The costs of
> this
> >>> are not to be underestimated. Who would pay it?
> >>>
> >>
> >> The AlphaGo team would get feedback from testing by players with very
> >> different ideas/strengths who they would otherwise never get in contact
> >> with.
> >>
> >> For example, Michael Redmond mentioned repeatedly in the last 3 reviews
> >> that
> >> he would love to play AlphaGo to study Go, to find new openings,...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> Lukas
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 12:20 PM, Clark B. Wierda <cbwie...@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>   On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:05 PM, Thomas Wolf <tw...@brocku.ca>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> Having AlphaGo playing exclusively on KGS would be such a
> >>> boost to KGS!
> >>>
> >>>   For sure.
> >>>
> >>> The other Go servers might have their own opinion on that.
> >>>
> >>> Clark
> >>>
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Lukas van de Wiel]

Oh, I did not say that it would not be beneficial, to AlphaGo, and to the
people playing it, and to the Go community as a whole, but still, it will
have to come from somewhere. Just the electricity bill alone would be
hair-raising.
And the big-scale benefits in prestige and marketing are over, with this
victory.

It would be cool to build on the works of AlphaGo, and I would like to see
it as much as the next enthusiast, but I doubt the feasibility...

On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 1:01 PM, Thomas Wolf <tw...@brocku.ca> wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, Lukas van de Wiel wrote:
>
> And the hardware available for this tournament was tremendous. It remains
>> to be seen whether the hardware and the people
>> maintaining it would be available for a longer period. The costs of this
>> are not to be underestimated. Who would pay it?
>>
>
> The AlphaGo team would get feedback from testing by players with very
> different ideas/strengths who they would otherwise never get in contact
> with.
>
> For example, Michael Redmond mentioned repeatedly in the last 3 reviews
> that
> he would love to play AlphaGo to study Go, to find new openings,...
>
>
>
>> Lukas
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 12:20 PM, Clark B. Wierda <cbwie...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>   On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:05 PM, Thomas Wolf <tw...@brocku.ca>
>> wrote:
>> Having AlphaGo playing exclusively on KGS would be such a
>> boost to KGS!
>>
>>   For sure.
>>
>> The other Go servers might have their own opinion on that.
>>
>> Clark
>>
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>>
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Lukas van de Wiel]

And the hardware available for this tournament was tremendous. It remains
to be seen whether the hardware and the people maintaining it would be
available for a longer period. The costs of this are not to be
underestimated. Who would pay it?

Lukas

On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 12:20 PM, Clark B. Wierda 
wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:05 PM, Thomas Wolf  wrote:
>
>> Having AlphaGo playing exclusively on KGS would be such a boost to KGS!
>>
>> For sure.
>
> The other Go servers might have their own opinion on that.
>
> Clark
>
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Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Lukas van de Wiel]

It makes me think that is a very good idea that they did not select a
Japanese professional to play AlphaGo, They tend to be very passionate
about shame (even though there is of course no shame in losing against
AlphaGo) and it might have been... messy...

On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 10:55 AM, Jim O'Flaherty <jim.oflaherty...@gmail.com
> wrote:

> I think you're correct, Thomas. The challenge is going to be getting ANY
> professional to be the one who "takes handicap stones" for the first time
> in years. The possible "shame" of doing so is what will make it messy.
>
> Once someone does take that step, though, I think it is only a matter of
> time before the rating of humans will be made a subordinate rating relative
> to the "objective" rating of the AIs, AlphaGo just being the first. And
> that has its own psychological challenges as the Go world has many decades
> of handling ELOs and rankings for humans. So, I don't think change in this
> area is going to be welcomed anytime soon.
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Thomas Wolf <tw...@brocku.ca> wrote:
>
>> Chris,
>>
>> Prompted from a discussion on the computer go email list
>> (and my last email today) :
>>
>> We currently have no measure at all to judge how safe a winor loss is at
>> any
>> stage of the game. The measure applied currently of counting territory
>> does
>> only apply if both players try to maximize territory but not if at least
>> one
>> player maximizes the chance of winning. (I know, it was mentioned
>> already).
>>
>> But really, comments like "Player ... is catching up" are pretty
>> meaningless
>> and are only valid if one explicitly mentions points or territorry, and
>> adds
>> that this has nothing to do with winning probabilities.
>>
>> Even the winning percentages provided by the computer programs themselves
>> are
>> no real indicator for winninig chances. They are tools to find the best
>> move
>> and are a statistical measure over several playout sequences based on
>> selfplay
>> not based on play against that opponent. Equally, winning percentages
>> worked
>> out by other computer programs are also not adequate (although they are at
>> least unbiased) because they do also not use the real opponents to play
>> out
>> the sequences.
>>
>> The only valid strength indicator would be to gradually increase handicap
>> stones or komi for the previous loser in a series of games.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Thomas
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, Sorin Gherman wrote:
>>
>>
>>> It is fascinating indeed to try to find how much stronger is AlphaGo
>>> compared to top humans.
>>>
>>> Given the fact that it is hard to find the reason why Lee Sedol lost, and
>>> that AlphaGo seems to get mysteriously ahead without a clear reason,
>>> tells
>>> me that the difference is definitely more than one stone handicap, maybe
>>> 2+
>>> stones, as crazy as it may sound given Lee Sedol's level.
>>>
>>> I am pretty sure he will not accept to play with handicap against AlphaGo
>>> though. Maybe "younger wolves" like Ke Jie will though and we will find
>>> out.
>>>
>>> On Mar 12, 2016 11:03 AM, "Thomas Wolf" <tw...@brocku.ca> wrote:
>>>   A suggestion for possible future games to be arranged between
>>>   AlphaGo and
>>>   strong players:
>>>
>>>   Whoever lost shall be given 1 stone or the equivalent of 1/2
>>>   stone handcap in the
>>>   next game. Games should continue until each side has won at
>>>   least once. This
>>>   way AlphaGo will be forced to demonstrate its full strength over
>>>   a whole game
>>>   which we are all too curious to see.
>>>
>>>   Thomas
>>>
>>>   On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, Aja Huang wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks all. AlphaGo has won the match against Lee
>>> Sedol. But there are still 2 games to play.
>>> Aja
>>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:49 PM, Jim O'Flaherty
>>> <jim.oflaherty...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>   It was exhilerating to witness history being
>>> made! Awesome!
>>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 2:17 AM, David Fotland
>>> <fotl...@smart-games.com> w

[Computer-go] Congratulations to AlphaGo

[Lukas van de Wiel]

Whoa, what a fight! Well fought, and well won!

Lukas
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Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo won the second game!

[Lukas van de Wiel]

The same here, with other people having built the foundations of go AIs,
and going from neural networks to MCTS, and now back-ish again...
But that is how is how science works. Eventually these two wins are the
reward of decades of culminated work by many people working on go AI.
AlphaGo is the Cherry on the enormous cake.

On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 7:43 AM, Marco Scheurer <ma...@sente.ch> wrote:

> Congratulations indeed.
>
> Although I must admit I have mixed feelings about this, that it is Google,
> using enormous resources, that got there first.
>
> marco
>
> On 10 Mar 2016, at 19:38, Lukas van de Wiel <lukas.drinkt.t...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Congratz to AlphaGo, once more!
> This is getting scary! :-)
>
> Lukas
>
> On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 12:40 AM, "Ingo Althöfer" <3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de>
> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>>
>> Von: "Erik van der Werf" <erikvanderw...@gmail.com>
>> > Very impressive results so far!
>>
>> indeed, almost unbelievable.
>>
>>
>> > If it's going to be a clean sweep, I hope we will get to see some
>> handicap games :-)
>>
>>
>> I have another proposal, IF a clean sweep will happen:
>> There was an announcement three days ago by a Chinese group that
>> they are developing a strong go bot and want to challenge
>> No. 1 player Ke Jie (still in 2016).
>> The winner of that match might challenge AlphaGo.
>>
>> Ingo.
>>
>>
>> http://senseis.xmp.net/?KeJie
>>
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Re: [Computer-go] AlphaGo won the second game!

[Lukas van de Wiel]

Congratz to AlphaGo, once more!
This is getting scary! :-)

Lukas

On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 12:40 AM, "Ingo Althöfer" <3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de>
wrote:

> Hello,
>
>
> Von: "Erik van der Werf" 
> > Very impressive results so far!
>
> indeed, almost unbelievable.
>
>
> > If it's going to be a clean sweep, I hope we will get to see some
> handicap games :-)
>
>
> I have another proposal, IF a clean sweep will happen:
> There was an announcement three days ago by a Chinese group that
> they are developing a strong go bot and want to challenge
> No. 1 player Ke Jie (still in 2016).
> The winner of that match might challenge AlphaGo.
>
> Ingo.
>
>
> http://senseis.xmp.net/?KeJie
>
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Re: [Computer-go] Other German poll on Lee Sedol vs AlphaGo

[Lukas van de Wiel]

A very nice raffle. Count me in.

The confidence in Lee Sedol is staggering.
Has he played many games against AIs before?

Cheers
Lukas

On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 2:29 PM, "Ingo Althöfer" <3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de>
wrote:

> Hebsacker-Verlag is the leading German provider of Go equipment.
> They have initiated a poll on the forthcoming man-machine match.
>
> So far 278 people have voted. The distribution of expected
> scores is:
>
> Lee Sedol wins by 5-0: 34.2 %
> Lee Sedol wins by 4-1: 29.1 %
> Lee Sedol wins by 3-2: 12.2 %
> total: 75.5 %
>
> AlphaGo wins by 3-2: 7.2 %
> AlphaGo wins by 4-1: 9.4 %
> AlphaGo wins by 5-0: 7.9 %
> total: 24.5 %
>
> Amongst those "predicting the correct score" a nice
> go board (valued 380 Euro) is raffled.
>
> Ingo.
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Re: [Computer-go] PhD in Computer Go?

[Lukas van de Wiel]

Hi Alexis.

Tilburg University in the Netherlands is doing a fair bit of research of
computer go, and they occasionally have PhD positions on this.

Cheers

Lukas

On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 9:48 PM, Alexis Audran-Reiss 
alexis.aud...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hello all,

 I have been in the loop for two months now and I find it really
 interesting.
 I wonder if it's possible to accomplish a PhD in this topic? It would be
 an amazing subject, but I don't if some universities do that.

 It would perfectly match my love for go game and my interest in
 mathematics  computer science. (I'm graduated from a french university,
 specialized in probability ( finance but it's useless for our
 conversation)).

 Regards,

 Alexis Audran-Reiss




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Re: [Computer-go] UEC Cup

[Lukas van de Wiel]

Thank you for the frequent updates and the pictures.

I am most curious to learn why it is that Zen, who usually ends up very
high in these competitions, has been defeated by two newcomers in the
field. What are Dolbaram and Nomitam doing differently?...

Cheers
Lukas

On Mon, Mar 16, 2015 at 9:58 AM, Kahn Jonas jonas.k...@math.u-psud.fr
wrote:

 UEC student won a exhibition game against CrazyStone without handicap.


 Thank you for keeping us in touch, Hiroshi!
 Sad for Zen, nice for Nomitan and nice to see Dolbaram in the finals. It
 will be interesting to see it play a pro.

 Do you know if there is a kifu for the game between CS and the student?

 Thank you
 Jonas

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