Re: [PSES] Chamber grounding [General Use]

[Price, Andrew (Leonardo, UK)]

Thanks all for the replies.

It seems that there is some divided opinion.

Some of the test houses I have spoken to state that they definitely ground 
their chambers via ground spikes. This is to remove low frequency noise that 
causes issues with the low frequency emc tests  that are required in mil-std, 
def stan  and rtca/do-160.
One test house I spoke to stated that as a result of cost cutting an earth 
spike was not fitted so earthing was taken to building ground, as a result of 
this the test house has issues with low frequency noise.

The consensus of the forum is that a ground spike should not be required and 
the building ground used should be enough.

This then probably raises the question of how good is the building ground? Is 
there a requirement for this?
If there is noise on the building ground how can this be eliminated?

Regards
Andy



 Andrew Price
 Land & Naval Defence Electronics Division
 Prinicpal Environmental Engineer (EMC)

 Leonardo MW Ltd
 Sigma House, Christopher Martin Rd, Basildon SS14 3EL, UK
 Tel  EMC LAB : +44 (0)1268 883308
 Mobile: +44 (0)7507 854888
 
andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com
 leonardocomapany.com
HELICOPTERS / AERONAUTICS / ELECTRONICS, DEFENCE AND SECURITY SYSTEMS / SPACE

* Please consider the environment before printing this email.




Leonardo MW Ltd
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Re: [PSES] Chamber grounding [General Use]

[ce-test, qualified testing bv, Gert Gremmen]

I agree that (national) legislation should play a role here,
but EMC chambers are NOT ordinary equipments, nor
part of a standard electrical installation.
I would not rely on electrical codes to create a safe work environment,
and have my personal opinions prevail.

We operate in a gray area, where safety is concerned.


So here good (low voltage) engineering practice suggests "permanent
connection"
and due to the specifically lethal character of the "high leakage current
device"
of the device, a second backup connection is not superfluous.

Gert


From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Tuesday 18 July 2017 21:09
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Chamber grounding [General Use]

I think the issue is far more about electrical safety than EMC. Of course
you are quite right about a Faraday cage not requiring an earth connection.
It's what happens if there is a high-current live mains to accessible metal
fault. The preferred technique depends on how such a fault is detected and
rendered harmless. National electrical codes have much to say about this,
and they don't all require the same solutions. That's why I advised the OP
to look at BS 7694, because that is what applies in Britain.


With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk   J M Woodgate and
Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

From: Ghery S. Pettit [mailto:n6...@comcast.net] 
Sent: 18 July 2017 19:59
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Chamber grounding [General Use]

It's not so much that it needs filtering at the power frequency as it is
that that much line to ground capacitance is needed to provide 100 dB of
insertion loss down to 10 kHz (which is typical for chamber power filters).

Back to the original question -

I've had 3 and 10 meter chambers in different places over the years.  The
first chamber was built before I joined the company and the engineer worked
very hard to maintain a single point ground for the chamber.  I built a 10
meter chamber for the same company a number of years later and didn't worry
about a single point ground.  Both worked fine.  A Faraday Cage, once you
are talking high enough frequencies (and 10 kHz is high enough), doesn't
care if it is ungrounded, single point grounded or multi-point grounded.
The RF currents flow close enough to the surface that the shield is good.

Now, if you have a problem with 60 Hz power causing currents to flow through
the shield material you may have a different problem.  I've never had to
care about shielding effectiveness at 60 Hz, so skin effect hasn't been an
issue for me.  YMMV.

Ghery S. Pettit, NCE


From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 11:47 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Chamber grounding [General Use]


"But as soon as mains filters are mounted on the wall, one has to cope with
leakage currents (blind current) as large as 6 amp or more." 
6 amps!  At 230 volts, 50 Hz, Xc is 38.8 ohms.  Total C from line to earth
is 69.2 uF!  (Presumably the filter has an equal capacitance from neutral to
earth.)  Why does a chamber need so much filtering at mains frequency?

Rich


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This messag

[PSES] Optical Viewing Product

[Ed Price]

I just bought a supply of paper/plastic solar eclipse “glasses” for the 
upcoming USA total solar eclipse (I’ll be in the desert in Idaho, hoping for 
clear skies). I thought you might be interested in the product markings on this 
product.

 

[CE & ISO marks]  Conforms to and meets the Transmission Requirements of 
ISO 12312-2, Filters for Direct Observation of the Sun. Meets the Transmission 
Requirements of EN 1836:2005 + A1:2007 € for an E15 Filter for the Direct 
Observation of the Sun. Meets the Transmission Requirements of AS/NZS 
1338.1:2012, Filters for Eye Protectors. EC Type Examination by: SAI Global 
Assurance Services Ltd. (Notified Body No. NB2056. There’s more about 
addresses, and the vendor is identified as American Paper Optics of Bartlett, 
TN. www.3dglassesonline.com Also interesting that there is a warning to discard 
product after three years (although date of manufacture is not stated).

 

We don’t often talk about optical standards, so I thought this marking, on a $2 
consumer product (bought on Amazon), might be interesting for us.

 

Ed Price
WB6WSN
Chula Vista, CA USA

 


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Re: [PSES] Solar electric cars built by college students

[John Woodgate]

I'm not convinced that 'equipotential bonding' is the right solution. The
first question to ask about a piece of accessible metalwork is 'Could it
become live?'  This is not new: it has been applied to metal trim on the
outside of plastic TV cabinets for many years. It's so highly improbable
that it can safely be left isolated. So a good solution for the cars is to
apply reinforced insulation to the live parts, so that all accessible metal
has a vanishingly low probability of ever becoming live.
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
  www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and
Associates Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] 
Sent: 18 July 2017 23:20
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Solar electric cars built by college students
 
Not commenting on the safety standard issue because not knowledgeable, but
it is interesting to note that many conventional ICE-powered cars with 12
Vdc electrical systems don't bother to bond all metallic parts of a car
together. It used to be that all you need to do to ground something was
attach it to nearby metal structure; that is no longer the case. There are
dedicated ground lugs on the car in various places that are available, but
if you don't use them, there is no guarantee that the metal you are
connecting to has a low resistance path back to the battery negative
terminal.  On car using batteries with lethal potentials, it will be
necessary just like for ac mains-powered appliances that any metal
accessible to people driving or working on the cars have a low resistance
bond back to ground potential, and when charging the car, the ground
reference for the ac charging potential also connects to the car ground.
And in case of a crash, it would be real nice if the class H bonds lasted
long enough for the battery to somehow disable itself...

Using now archaic military aerospace jargon, modern ICE-powered cars with 12
Vdc electrical systems have (MIL-B-5087) class C (current-carrying) bonds
only where they need them and no need to implement class H (hazard) bonds.
An electric car with lethal battery potential will have class C bonds where
they need them, and class H bonds everywhere.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261


  _  

From: Scott Aldous <0220f70c299a-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org
 >
Reply-To: Scott Aldous mailto:scottald...@google.com> >
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 12:06:37 -0700
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> >
Subject: Re: [PSES] Solar electric cars built by college students

UL 2202 is the UL standard for EV charging system equipment. Section 14 is
on EV Bonding, and it requires the output circuit of the charger to provide
a means for bonding the EV during charging for grounded system of
protection. There are different protection schemes, so the need for bonding
is dependent on which is applicable.

In general, I would think that separate grounding of an EV from the charging
system could create a ground loop and so would not be desirable.

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 11:11 AM, Ted Eckert
<07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org
 > wrote:
I recommend against following Ferrari's practice. Apparently, portions of
the FXX K supercar are energized to 480 V when charging. There is a fin on
the roof with flashing LEDs. Red means stay away and green means safe.
http://jalopnik.com/the-ferrari-fxx-k-might-electrocute-you-1796961190

 
 
Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation
 
The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my
employer, Ferrari or the Society of Automotive Engineers. 
 
From: Dale Reid [mailto:re...@lexmark.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 10:52 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG  
Subject: [PSES] Solar electric cars built by college students
 

Hello,

 

Speaking of grounding, can someone share some thoughts on what would be the
best practice regarding an earth ground for an electric car while plugged in
and charging from the grid?  Would it be best to tie a car's metal frame to
ground while it's hooked up for a charge? 

Dale Reid

 
-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> >

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http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Re: [PSES] Solar electric cars built by college students

[Ken Javor]

Not commenting on the safety standard issue because not knowledgeable, but
it is interesting to note that many conventional ICE-powered cars with 12
Vdc electrical systems don¹t bother to bond all metallic parts of a car
together. It used to be that all you need to do to ground something was
attach it to nearby metal structure; that is no longer the case. There are
dedicated ground lugs on the car in various places that are available, but
if you don¹t use them, there is no guarantee that the metal you are
connecting to has a low resistance path back to the battery negative
terminal.  On car using batteries with lethal potentials, it will be
necessary just like for ac mains-powered appliances that any metal
accessible to people driving or working on the cars have a low resistance
bond back to ground potential, and when charging the car, the ground
reference for the ac charging potential also connects to the car ground.
And in case of a crash, it would be real nice if the class H bonds lasted
long enough for the battery to somehow disable itself...

Using now archaic military aerospace jargon, modern ICE-powered cars with 12
Vdc electrical systems have (MIL-B-5087) class C (current-carrying) bonds
only where they need them and no need to implement class H (hazard) bonds.
An electric car with lethal battery potential will have class C bonds where
they need them, and class H bonds everywhere.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: Scott Aldous <0220f70c299a-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org>
Reply-To: Scott Aldous 
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 12:06:37 -0700
To: 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Solar electric cars built by college students

UL 2202 is the UL standard for EV charging system equipment. Section 14 is
on EV Bonding, and it requires the output circuit of the charger to provide
a means for bonding the EV during charging for grounded system of
protection. There are different protection schemes, so the need for bonding
is dependent on which is applicable.

In general, I would think that separate grounding of an EV from the charging
system could create a ground loop and so would not be desirable.

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 11:11 AM, Ted Eckert
<07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> wrote:
> I recommend against following Ferrari¹s practice. Apparently, portions of the
> FXX K supercar are energized to 480 V when charging. There is a fin on the
> roof with flashing LEDs. Red means stay away and green means safe.
> http://jalopnik.com/the-ferrari-fxx-k-might-electrocute-you-1796961190
> 
>  
> Ted Eckert
> Microsoft Corporation
>  
> The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my
> employer, Ferrari or the Society of Automotive Engineers.
>  
> From: Dale Reid [mailto:re...@lexmark.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 10:52 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: [PSES] Solar electric cars built by college students
>  
> 
> Hello,
> 
>  
> 
> Speaking of grounding, can someone share some thoughts on what would be the
> best practice regarding an earth ground for an electric car while plugged in
> and charging from the grid?  Would it be best to tie a car's metal frame to
> ground while it's hooked up for a charge?     
> 
> Dale Reid
> 
>  
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
> 
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>  .org%2Femc-pstc.html&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C43daf57bb
> e664288643e08d4ce05dedd%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636359971
> 985041978&sdata=sK>
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Re: [PSES] Chamber grounding [General Use]

[John Woodgate]

I think the issue is far more about electrical safety than EMC. Of course
you are quite right about a Faraday cage not requiring an earth connection.
It's what happens if there is a high-current live mains to accessible metal
fault. The preferred technique depends on how such a fault is detected and
rendered harmless. National electrical codes have much to say about this,
and they don't all require the same solutions. That's why I advised the OP
to look at BS 7694, because that is what applies in Britain.
 
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
  www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and
Associates Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: Ghery S. Pettit [mailto:n6...@comcast.net] 
Sent: 18 July 2017 19:59
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Chamber grounding [General Use]
 
It's not so much that it needs filtering at the power frequency as it is
that that much line to ground capacitance is needed to provide 100 dB of
insertion loss down to 10 kHz (which is typical for chamber power filters).
 
Back to the original question -
 
I've had 3 and 10 meter chambers in different places over the years.  The
first chamber was built before I joined the company and the engineer worked
very hard to maintain a single point ground for the chamber.  I built a 10
meter chamber for the same company a number of years later and didn't worry
about a single point ground.  Both worked fine.  A Faraday Cage, once you
are talking high enough frequencies (and 10 kHz is high enough), doesn't
care if it is ungrounded, single point grounded or multi-point grounded.
The RF currents flow close enough to the surface that the shield is good.
 
Now, if you have a problem with 60 Hz power causing currents to flow through
the shield material you may have a different problem.  I've never had to
care about shielding effectiveness at 60 Hz, so skin effect hasn't been an
issue for me.  YMMV.
 
Ghery S. Pettit, NCE
 
 
From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 11:47 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG  
Subject: Re: [PSES] Chamber grounding [General Use]
 
 
"But as soon as mains filters are mounted on the wall, one has to cope with
leakage currents (blind current) as large as 6 amp or more." 
6 amps!  At 230 volts, 50 Hz, Xc is 38.8 ohms.  Total C from line to earth
is 69.2 uF!  (Presumably the filter has an equal capacitance from neutral to
earth.)  Why does a chamber need so much filtering at mains frequency?
 
Rich
 
 
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format

Re: [PSES] Solar electric cars built by college students

[Scott Aldous]

UL 2202 is the UL standard for EV charging system equipment. Section 14 is
on EV Bonding, and it requires the output circuit of the charger to provide
a means for bonding the EV during charging for grounded system of
protection. There are different protection schemes, so the need for bonding
is dependent on which is applicable.

In general, I would think that separate grounding of an EV from the
charging system could create a ground loop and so would not be desirable.

On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 11:11 AM, Ted Eckert <
07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> wrote:

> I recommend against following Ferrari’s practice. Apparently, portions of
> the FXX K supercar are energized to 480 V when charging. There is a fin on
> the roof with flashing LEDs. Red means stay away and green means safe.
>
> http://jalopnik.com/the-ferrari-fxx-k-might-electrocute-you-1796961190
>
>
>
> Ted Eckert
>
> Microsoft Corporation
>
>
>
> The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of
> my employer, Ferrari or the Society of Automotive Engineers.
>
>
>
> *From:* Dale Reid [mailto:re...@lexmark.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 18, 2017 10:52 AM
> *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> *Subject:* [PSES] Solar electric cars built by college students
>
>
>
> Hello,
>
>
>
> Speaking of grounding, can someone share some thoughts on what would be
> the best practice regarding an earth ground for an electric car while
> plugged in and charging from the grid?  Would it be best to tie a car's
> metal frame to ground while it's hooked up for a charge?
>
>
> *Dale Reid*
>
>
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/
> 
> can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> 
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe)
> 
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
> 
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher 
> David Heald 
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
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> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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> unsubscribe) 
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-- 
Scott Aldous | Regula

Re: [PSES] Chamber grounding [General Use]

[Ken Javor]

In the US, 120 Vac and 60 Hz.  The filter has a pass band below 1 kHz, and a
stop band of 100 dB at 10 kHz.  That requires large amounts of
line-to-ground capacity and series inductance, and obviously at least five
poles.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



From: Richard Nute 
Reply-To: 
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 11:47:22 -0700
To: 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Chamber grounding [General Use]

 
³But as soon as mains filters are mounted on the wall, one has to cope with
leakage currents (blind current) as large as 6 amp or more.²

6 amps!  At 230 volts, 50 Hz, Xc is 38.8 ohms.  Total C from line to earth
is 69.2 uF!  (Presumably the filter has an equal capacitance from neutral to
earth.)  Why does a chamber need so much filtering at mains frequency?
 
Rich
 
 
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Re: [PSES] Chamber grounding [General Use]

[Ghery S. Pettit]

It's not so much that it needs filtering at the power frequency as it is
that that much line to ground capacitance is needed to provide 100 dB of
insertion loss down to 10 kHz (which is typical for chamber power filters).

 

Back to the original question -

 

I've had 3 and 10 meter chambers in different places over the years.  The
first chamber was built before I joined the company and the engineer worked
very hard to maintain a single point ground for the chamber.  I built a 10
meter chamber for the same company a number of years later and didn't worry
about a single point ground.  Both worked fine.  A Faraday Cage, once you
are talking high enough frequencies (and 10 kHz is high enough), doesn't
care if it is ungrounded, single point grounded or multi-point grounded.
The RF currents flow close enough to the surface that the shield is good.

 

Now, if you have a problem with 60 Hz power causing currents to flow through
the shield material you may have a different problem.  I've never had to
care about shielding effectiveness at 60 Hz, so skin effect hasn't been an
issue for me.  YMMV.

 

Ghery S. Pettit, NCE

 

 

From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 11:47 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Chamber grounding [General Use]

 

 

"But as soon as mains filters are mounted on the wall, one has to cope with
leakage currents (blind current) as large as 6 amp or more." 

6 amps!  At 230 volts, 50 Hz, Xc is 38.8 ohms.  Total C from line to earth
is 69.2 uF!  (Presumably the filter has an equal capacitance from neutral to
earth.)  Why does a chamber need so much filtering at mains frequency?

 

Rich

 

 

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Re: [PSES] Chamber grounding [General Use]

[Richard Nute]

 

"But as soon as mains filters are mounted on the
wall, one has to cope with leakage currents (blind
current) as large as 6 amp or more." 

6 amps!  At 230 volts, 50 Hz, Xc is 38.8 ohms.
Total C from line to earth is 69.2 uF!
(Presumably the filter has an equal capacitance
from neutral to earth.)  Why does a chamber need
so much filtering at mains frequency?

 

Rich

 

 


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Re: [PSES] Solar electric cars built by college students

[Ted Eckert]

I recommend against following Ferrari’s practice. Apparently, portions of the 
FXX K supercar are energized to 480 V when charging. There is a fin on the roof 
with flashing LEDs. Red means stay away and green means safe.
http://jalopnik.com/the-ferrari-fxx-k-might-electrocute-you-1796961190

Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation

The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my 
employer, Ferrari or the Society of Automotive Engineers.

From: Dale Reid [mailto:re...@lexmark.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 10:52 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Solar electric cars built by college students

Hello,

Speaking of grounding, can someone share some thoughts on what would be the 
best practice regarding an earth ground for an electric car while plugged in 
and charging from the grid?  Would it be best to tie a car's metal frame to 
ground while it's hooked up for a charge?

Dale Reid

-


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Re: [PSES] Chamber grounding [General Use]

[James Pawson (U3C)]

Hi Brian,

My understanding is that GTEMs struggle when anything involving cables is
mentioned, presumably because no one can agree on an accurate, consistent,
standardised method for routing them out of the test volume. 61000-4-20 has
a clause in it that states that EUTs with cables are under consideration or
outside the scope of the standard (I don't have it in front of me).

Al the best
James


James Pawson
Unit 3 Compliance
www.unit3compliance.co.uk



-Original Message-
From: Brian O'Connell [mailto:oconne...@tamuracorp.com] 
Sent: 18 July 2017 18:23
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Chamber grounding [General Use]

Warning Will Robinson - Brian is not an EMC expert.

Agree with Herr Gremmen about the referencing of equipotential points - this
was critical for my employer's current chamber because it was sitting next
to a machine shop and a HALT chamber. Would suggest two or three cups of
tea, followed by some ale, while pursuing a good reading of the EN50147-x
series and ANSIC63.4 and CISPR16 and the various Bugs Bunny cartoons.

Related question - am wondering why, other than physical size of UUT,
industry prefers anechoics in lieu of GTEMs? 

Brian


From: Gert Gremmen [mailto:g.grem...@cetest.nl]
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 8:49 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Chamber grounding [General Use]

As for the purpose of operation, EMC chambers need no grounding.
The shielding property happens by conduction of the shield material the
chamber is made from.
But as soon as mains filters are mounted on the wall, one has to cope with
leakage currents (blind current) as large as 6 amp or more. This is
definitely lethal on the touch so I recommend a grounding of 4-6mm2 copper
in addition to the ground lead in the mains connection.
I suggest leading both grounds to the building ground, as that is an
equipotential point, made for safety.
But again, an ungrounded chamber performs the same as a grounded one.
Gert Gremme
-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: Price, Andrew (Leonardo, UK)
[mailto:andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com]
Verzonden: dinsdag 18 juli 2017 16:55
Aan: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Onderwerp: Re: [PSES] Chamber grounding [General Use] Hi All Which is the
best to use?
Ground each EMC chamber via an earth spike or back to the transformer of the
supply to the building?
Which is best practice?
Regards
Andy

 Andrew Price
 Land & Naval Defence Electronics Division
 Prinicpal Environmental Engineer (EMC)
 Leonardo MW Ltd
 Sigma House, Christopher Martin Rd, Basildon SS14 3EL, UK
 Tel  EMC LAB : +44 (0)1268 883308
 Mobile: +44 (0)7507 854888

andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com
 leonardocomapany.com
HELICOPTERS / AERONAUTICS / ELECTRONICS, DEFENCE AND SECURITY SYSTEMS /
SPACE
* Please consider the environment before printing this email.


Leonardo MW Ltd
Registered Office: Sigma House, Christopher Martin Road, Basildon, Essex
SS14 3EL A company registered in England & Wales.  Company no. 02426132


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[PSES] Solar electric cars built by college students

[Dale Reid]

Hello,

Speaking of grounding, can someone share some thoughts on what would be the
best practice regarding an earth ground for an electric car while plugged
in and charging from the grid?  Would it be best to tie a car's metal frame
to ground while it's hooked up for a charge?

*Dale Reid*

-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


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Re: [PSES] Chamber grounding [General Use]

[Ken Javor]

I was pondering how best to answer the OP but Gert Gremmen beat me to it
with better words than I would have used.

With regards to the last question, GTEMs are only good for the test sample
enclosure itself, not the attached cables. When using a GTEM, I have told
customers to measure cable common mode conducted emissions (CMCE) first,
control them to a level based on an algorithm relating CMCE to RE at the
required separation, and when that is complete, go into the GTEM and any
failures are then known to originate from the test sample enclosure, not the
cables. Similarly, for RS, apply BCI or 61000-4-6 to the cables at the
appropriate level first, then go into the cell and any problems found there
are due to the test sample enclosure.

Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261



> From: Brian O'Connell 
> Reply-To: Brian O'Connell 
> Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2017 17:22:35 +
> To: 
> Conversation: [PSES] Chamber grounding [General Use]
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Chamber grounding [General Use]
> 
> Warning Will Robinson - Brian is not an EMC expert.
> 
> Agree with Herr Gremmen about the referencing of equipotential points - this
> was critical for my employer's current chamber because it was sitting next to
> a machine shop and a HALT chamber. Would suggest two or three cups of tea,
> followed by some ale, while pursuing a good reading of the EN50147-x series
> and ANSIC63.4 and CISPR16 and the various Bugs Bunny cartoons.
> 
> Related question - am wondering why, other than physical size of UUT, industry
> prefers anechoics in lieu of GTEMs?
> 
> Brian
> 
> 
> From: Gert Gremmen [mailto:g.grem...@cetest.nl]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 8:49 AM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Chamber grounding [General Use]
> 
> As for the purpose of operation, EMC chambers need no grounding.
> The shielding property happens by conduction of the shield material the
> chamber is made from.
> But as soon as mains filters are mounted on the wall, one has to cope with
> leakage currents
> (blind current) as large as 6 amp or more. This is definitely lethal on the
> touch so I recommend a
> grounding of 4-6mm2 copper in addition to the ground lead in the mains
> connection.
> I suggest leading both grounds to the building ground, as that is an
> equipotential point, made for safety.
> But again, an ungrounded chamber performs the same as a grounded one.
> Gert Gremme
> -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
> Van: Price, Andrew (Leonardo, UK) [mailto:andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com]
> Verzonden: dinsdag 18 juli 2017 16:55
> Aan: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Onderwerp: Re: [PSES] Chamber grounding [General Use]
> Hi All
> Which is the best to use?
> Ground each EMC chamber via an earth spike or back to the transformer of the
> supply to the building?
> Which is best practice?
> Regards
> Andy
> 
>  Andrew Price
>  Land & Naval Defence Electronics Division
>  Prinicpal Environmental Engineer (EMC)
>  Leonardo MW Ltd
>  Sigma House, Christopher Martin Rd, Basildon SS14 3EL, UK
>  Tel  EMC LAB : +44 (0)1268 883308
>  Mobile: +44 (0)7507 854888
>  
> andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com
>  leonardocomapany.com
> HELICOPTERS / AERONAUTICS / ELECTRONICS, DEFENCE AND SECURITY SYSTEMS / SPACE
> * Please consider the environment before printing this email.
> 
> 
> Leonardo MW Ltd
> Registered Office: Sigma House, Christopher Martin Road, Basildon, Essex SS14
> 3EL A company registered in England & Wales.  Company no. 02426132
> 
> 
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
> 
> 
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
> 
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used
> formats), large files, etc.
> 
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe)
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
> 
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
> 
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher:  
> David Heald: 

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Re: [PSES] Chamber grounding [General Use]

[Brian O'Connell]

Warning Will Robinson - Brian is not an EMC expert.

Agree with Herr Gremmen about the referencing of equipotential points - this 
was critical for my employer's current chamber because it was sitting next to a 
machine shop and a HALT chamber. Would suggest two or three cups of tea, 
followed by some ale, while pursuing a good reading of the EN50147-x series and 
ANSIC63.4 and CISPR16 and the various Bugs Bunny cartoons.

Related question - am wondering why, other than physical size of UUT, industry 
prefers anechoics in lieu of GTEMs? 

Brian


From: Gert Gremmen [mailto:g.grem...@cetest.nl] 
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 8:49 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Chamber grounding [General Use]

As for the purpose of operation, EMC chambers need no grounding.
The shielding property happens by conduction of the shield material the chamber 
is made from.
But as soon as mains filters are mounted on the wall, one has to cope with 
leakage currents
(blind current) as large as 6 amp or more. This is definitely lethal on the 
touch so I recommend a
grounding of 4-6mm2 copper in addition to the ground lead in the mains 
connection.
I suggest leading both grounds to the building ground, as that is an
equipotential point, made for safety.
But again, an ungrounded chamber performs the same as a grounded one.
Gert Gremme
-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: Price, Andrew (Leonardo, UK) [mailto:andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com]
Verzonden: dinsdag 18 juli 2017 16:55
Aan: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Onderwerp: Re: [PSES] Chamber grounding [General Use]
Hi All
Which is the best to use?
Ground each EMC chamber via an earth spike or back to the transformer of the 
supply to the building?
Which is best practice?
Regards
Andy

 Andrew Price
 Land & Naval Defence Electronics Division
 Prinicpal Environmental Engineer (EMC)
 Leonardo MW Ltd
 Sigma House, Christopher Martin Rd, Basildon SS14 3EL, UK
 Tel  EMC LAB : +44 (0)1268 883308
 Mobile: +44 (0)7507 854888
 
andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com
 leonardocomapany.com
HELICOPTERS / AERONAUTICS / ELECTRONICS, DEFENCE AND SECURITY SYSTEMS / SPACE
* Please consider the environment before printing this email.


Leonardo MW Ltd
Registered Office: Sigma House, Christopher Martin Road, Basildon, Essex SS14 
3EL A company registered in England & Wales.  Company no. 02426132


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Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Chamber grounding [General Use]

[Gert Gremmen]

As for the purpose of operation, EMC chambers need no grounding.
The shielding property happens by conduction of the shield material the
chamber is made from.

But as soon as mains filters are mounted on the wall, one has to cope with
leakage currents
(blind current) as large as 6 amp or more. This is definitely lethal on the
touch so I recommend a
grounding of 4-6mm2 copper in addition to the ground lead in the mains
connection.

I suggest leading both grounds to the building ground, as that is an
equipotential point, made for safety.

But again, an ungrounded chamber performs the same as a grounded one.

Gert Gremme


-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: Price, Andrew (Leonardo, UK)
[mailto:andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com] 
Verzonden: dinsdag 18 juli 2017 16:55
Aan: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Onderwerp: Re: [PSES] Chamber grounding [General Use]

Hi All

Which is the best to use?
Ground each EMC chamber via an earth spike or back to the transformer of the
supply to the building?
Which is best practice?

Regards
Andy



 Andrew Price
 Land & Naval Defence Electronics Division
 Prinicpal Environmental Engineer (EMC)

 Leonardo MW Ltd
 Sigma House, Christopher Martin Rd, Basildon SS14 3EL, UK
 Tel  EMC LAB : +44 (0)1268 883308
 Mobile: +44 (0)7507 854888
 
andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com
 leonardocomapany.com
HELICOPTERS / AERONAUTICS / ELECTRONICS, DEFENCE AND SECURITY SYSTEMS /
SPACE

* Please consider the environment before printing this email.




Leonardo MW Ltd
Registered Office: Sigma House, Christopher Martin Road, Basildon, Essex
SS14 3EL A company registered in England & Wales.  Company no. 02426132

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Re: [PSES] Chamber grounding [General Use]

[Price, Andrew (Leonardo, UK)]

Hi All

Which is the best to use?
Ground each EMC chamber via an earth spike or back to the transformer of the 
supply to the building?
Which is best practice?

Regards
Andy



 Andrew Price
 Land & Naval Defence Electronics Division
 Prinicpal Environmental Engineer (EMC)

 Leonardo MW Ltd
 Sigma House, Christopher Martin Rd, Basildon SS14 3EL, UK
 Tel  EMC LAB : +44 (0)1268 883308
 Mobile: +44 (0)7507 854888
 
andrew.p.pr...@leonardocompany.com
 leonardocomapany.com
HELICOPTERS / AERONAUTICS / ELECTRONICS, DEFENCE AND SECURITY SYSTEMS / SPACE

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Leonardo MW Ltd
Registered Office: Sigma House, Christopher Martin Road, Basildon, Essex SS14 
3EL
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