Re: EMC Eduction and Training

[Derek Walton]

; - Original Message -
> *From:* Bill Owsley <mailto:wdows...@yahoo.com>
> *To: *Edward Price <mailto:ed.pr...@cubic.com>;emc-pstc
> <mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>;k...@earthlink.net
> <mailto:k...@earthlink.net>
> *Sent:* 12/16/2008 10:48:01 PM
> *Subject:* RE: EMC Eduction and Training
>
> Having served nearly 40 years ago in the previous most unpopular
> war, Kiplings words as quoted by  Mr. Cortland give me pause in
> the consideration of the question asked.  I find wanting, the
> general "you" in the quote, and still feel that the ideal of who
> the "you" should be, worthy of the price paid, then, and now.
>
> And now I feel as if I'm changing the diapers of those new
> graduates and young engineers that I doubt have ever wriggled a
> razors edge across the galena.  Their education in the physics of
> EM consists of digits.  Small wonder they look at me like I'm
> speaking some foreign tongue when I talk about the orthogonal E
> and H fields propagating along the third axis, all that were
> created by time varying voltages or currents.  Me thinks the next
> apprentice should have a physics degree, double E's should be
> double D's for digital designers.
>
>
> - Bill
> Indecision may or may not be the problem.
>
> --- On *Tue, 12/16/08, Cortland Richmond //*
> wrote:
>
> From: Cortland Richmond 
> Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training
> To: "Edward Price" , "emc-pstc"
> 
> Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 9:21 PM
>
> 
> 
> ---
> Ed Price wrote
>
> Perhaps you can take some comfort from Kipling's words of 125 years 
> ago,
> when he addressed the peculiar way that society only appreciates you 
> when
> they really, really need you:
>
> For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the
> brute!"
> But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to
> shoot;
> An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
> An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!
>
> 
> 
> 
> And Cortland Richmond replied:
>
> Kipling is the soldier's patron saint.  I served 21 years:
>
> (part of a longer work):
>
> And know our living ever watch,
> To ask, as we would do,
> Is what you are, worth what we paid?
> Is what we paid, worth YOU?
>
> We are the currency you spend
> For freedom, fear, or oil;
> Our blood, the coin you pay,
> Dark on some foreign soil.
>
> copyright Cortland RIchmond
>
> Ahem!
>
> All said, msny firms seem not to understand that one designs OUT 
> problems
> (EMC or otherwise) and thereby saves money.
>
> We need someone to speak at the EMC Symposium about the pychology of
> getting our employers to do what is right.  As it is, I'm turning 
> into a
> (461/DO-160-/Part15)- waving missionary.  
>
>
>
> Cortland KA5
>
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society 
> emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
> 
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
> Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to 
> that URL.
>
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher:  
> David Heald: 
> 
>
>
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society
> emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your
> e-mail to mailto

RE: EMC Eduction and Training

[James, Chris]

 

 

 and even more have problems with the very basic tools the
subject line of this email and many of the responses testify to
that :-) .. or am I just old and
pedanticdon’t answer that.

 

Seasons Greetings

Chris

 

 



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Gert Gremmen
Sent: 18 December 2008 08:49
To: James, Chris; Knighten, Jim L; emc-pstc
Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training

 

I second that. 

Possibly it is a metaphor of speaking

about our own young years. ;<)

 

Though I must admit that some of

the graduated (or almost graduated) have

serious problems with basic tools also:

 

I had this internal once that had problems 

with deriving a formula for a simple 2 R voltage divider…

 

Regards,

Ing. Gert Gremmen





ce-test, qualified testing bv

 

 

Van: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] Namens James, Chris
Verzonden: Thursday, December 18, 2008 9:39 AM
Aan: Knighten, Jim L; emc-pstc
Onderwerp: RE: EMC Eduction and Training

 

Very well said Jim – bravo.

 

Chris

 



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Knighten, Jim L
Sent: 18 December 2008 00:13
To: emc-pstc
Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training

 

I’ve followed this thread and even contributed to it.  I chose to reply to
this post by random selection.  

 

Perhaps it is an axiom of life that those who have labored to gain special
skills (perhaps even wisdom) tend to berate those younger, less expert persons
who come behind them.  They are not practical enough, not knowledgeable
enough, don’t understand the language that I speak in well enough, don’t
have the experiences that I hold dear, don’t seem interested in the things
that I think are important, can’t ever step into my shoes.  I expect that my
mentors felt that way about me and my contemporaries, i.e., the world is going
to the dogs!  We managed, however, and the world continues to turn.

 

School is designed to give the student a basic set of tools, not the total
knowledge necessary to careers.  Engineers learn as much or more on the job as
they do in college.  EMC is a broad field, even though we all tend to see the
field through the narrow viewfinder that defines our jobs.   The EMC field
evolves as technology evolves.  Future jobs will not be carbon copies of our
jobs.  So, while it is entertaining and therapeutic to vent over the
shortcomings of our successors, along with academic institutions, let’s give
them a break!  Thankfully, our predecessors gave us a break (at least mine
did).

 

Jim

 

__ 

James L. Knighten, Ph.D. 
EMC Engineer 
Teradata Corporation 
17095 Via Del Campo 
San Diego, CA 92127 

858-485-2537 – phone 
858-485-3788 – fax (unattended) 

 



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Bill Owsley
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 7:48 PM
To: Edward Price; emc-pstc; k...@earthlink.net
Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training

 

Having served nearly 40 years ago in the previous most unpopular war, Kiplings
words as quoted by  Mr. Cortland give me pause in the consideration of the
question asked.  I find wanting, the general "you" in the quote, and still
feel that the ideal of who the "you" should be, worthy of the price paid,
then, and now.

And now I feel as if I'm changing the diapers of those new graduates and young
engineers that I doubt have ever wriggled a razors edge across the galena. 
Their education in the physics of EM consists of digits.  Small wonder they
look at me like I'm speaking some foreign tongue when I talk about the
orthogonal E and H fields propagating along the third axis, all that were
created by time varying voltages or currents.  Me thinks the next apprentice
should have a physics degree, double E's should be double D's for digital
designers.


- Bill
Indecision may or may not be the problem.

--- On Tue, 12/16/08, Cortland Richmond  wrote:

From: Cortland Richmond 
Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training
To: "Edward Price" , "emc-pstc" 
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 9:21 PM



Ed Price wrote
 
Perhaps you can take some comfort from Kipling's words of 125 years ago,
when he addressed the peculiar way that society only appreciates you when
they really, really need you:
 
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the
brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to
shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!
 


And Cortland Richmond replied:
 
Kipling is the soldier's patron saint.  I s

RE: EMC Eduction and Training

[Gert Gremmen]

I second that. 

Possibly it is a metaphor of speaking

about our own young years. ;<)

 

Though I must admit that some of

the graduated (or almost graduated) have

serious problems with basic tools also:

 

I had this internal once that had problems 

with deriving a formula for a simple 2 R voltage divider…

 

Regards,

Ing. Gert Gremmen





ce-test, qualified testing bv

 

 

Van: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] Namens James, Chris
Verzonden: Thursday, December 18, 2008 9:39 AM
Aan: Knighten, Jim L; emc-pstc
Onderwerp: RE: EMC Eduction and Training

 

Very well said Jim – bravo.

 

Chris

 



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Knighten, Jim L
Sent: 18 December 2008 00:13
To: emc-pstc
Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training

 

I’ve followed this thread and even contributed to it.  I chose to reply to
this post by random selection.  

 

Perhaps it is an axiom of life that those who have labored to gain special
skills (perhaps even wisdom) tend to berate those younger, less expert persons
who come behind them.  They are not practical enough, not knowledgeable
enough, don’t understand the language that I speak in well enough, don’t
have the experiences that I hold dear, don’t seem interested in the things
that I think are important, can’t ever step into my shoes.  I expect that my
mentors felt that way about me and my contemporaries, i.e., the world is going
to the dogs!  We managed, however, and the world continues to turn.

 

School is designed to give the student a basic set of tools, not the total
knowledge necessary to careers.  Engineers learn as much or more on the job as
they do in college.  EMC is a broad field, even though we all tend to see the
field through the narrow viewfinder that defines our jobs.   The EMC field
evolves as technology evolves.  Future jobs will not be carbon copies of our
jobs.  So, while it is entertaining and therapeutic to vent over the
shortcomings of our successors, along with academic institutions, let’s give
them a break!  Thankfully, our predecessors gave us a break (at least mine
did).

 

Jim

 

__ 

James L. Knighten, Ph.D. 
EMC Engineer 
Teradata Corporation 
17095 Via Del Campo 
San Diego, CA 92127 

858-485-2537 – phone 
858-485-3788 – fax (unattended) 

 



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Bill Owsley
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 7:48 PM
To: Edward Price; emc-pstc; k...@earthlink.net
Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training

 

Having served nearly 40 years ago in the previous most unpopular war, Kiplings
words as quoted by  Mr. Cortland give me pause in the consideration of the
question asked.  I find wanting, the general "you" in the quote, and still
feel that the ideal of who the "you" should be, worthy of the price paid,
then, and now.

And now I feel as if I'm changing the diapers of those new graduates and young
engineers that I doubt have ever wriggled a razors edge across the galena. 
Their education in the physics of EM consists of digits.  Small wonder they
look at me like I'm speaking some foreign tongue when I talk about the
orthogonal E and H fields propagating along the third axis, all that were
created by time varying voltages or currents.  Me thinks the next apprentice
should have a physics degree, double E's should be double D's for digital
designers.


- Bill
Indecision may or may not be the problem.

--- On Tue, 12/16/08, Cortland Richmond  wrote:

From: Cortland Richmond 
Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training
To: "Edward Price" , "emc-pstc" 
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 9:21 PM



Ed Price wrote
 
Perhaps you can take some comfort from Kipling's words of 125 years ago,
when he addressed the peculiar way that society only appreciates you when
they really, really need you:
 
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the
brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to
shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!
 

--

And Cortland Richmond replied:
 
Kipling is the soldier's patron saint.  I served 21 years:
 
(part of a longer work):
 
And know our living ever watch,
To ask, as we would do,
Is what you are, worth what we paid?
Is what we paid, worth YOU?
 
We are the currency you spend
For freedom, fear, or oil;
Our blood, the coin you pay,
Dark on some foreign soil.
 
copyright Cortland RIchmond
 
Ahem!
 
All said, msny firms seem not to understand that one design
s OUT problems
(EMC or otherwise) and thereby saves money.
 
We need someone to speak at the EMC Symposium about the pych

RE: EMC Eduction and Training

[James, Chris]

Very well said Jim – bravo.

 

Chris

 



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Knighten, Jim L
Sent: 18 December 2008 00:13
To: emc-pstc
Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training

 

I’ve followed this thread and even contributed to it.  I chose to reply to
this post by random selection.  

 

Perhaps it is an axiom of life that those who have labored to gain special
skills (perhaps even wisdom) tend to berate those younger, less expert persons
who come behind them.  They are not practical enough, not knowledgeable
enough, don’t understand the language that I speak in well enough, don’t
have the experiences that I hold dear, don’t seem interested in the things
that I think are important, can’t ever step into my shoes.  I expect that my
mentors felt that way about me and my contemporaries, i.e., the world is going
to the dogs!  We managed, however, and the world continues to turn.

 

School is designed to give the student a basic set of tools, not the total
knowledge necessary to careers.  Engineers learn as much or more on the job as
they do in college.  EMC is a broad field, even though we all tend to see the
field through the narrow viewfinder that defines our jobs.   The EMC field
evolves as technology evolves.  Future jobs will not be carbon copies of our
jobs.  So, while it is entertaining and therapeutic to vent over the
shortcomings of our successors, along with academic institutions, let’s give
them a break!  Thankfully, our predecessors gave us a break (at least mine
did).

 

Jim

 

__ 

James L. Knighten, Ph.D. 
EMC Engineer 
Teradata Corporation 
17095 Via Del Campo 
San Diego, CA 92127 

858-485-2537 – phone 
858-485-3788 – fax (unattended) 

 



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Bill Owsley
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 7:48 PM
To: Edward Price; emc-pstc; k...@earthlink.net
Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training

 

Having served nearly 40 years ago in the previous most unpopular war, Kiplings
words as quoted by  Mr. Cortland give me pause in the consideration of the
question asked.  I find wanting, the general "you" in the quote, and still
feel that the ideal of who the "you" should be, worthy of the price paid,
then, and now.

And now I feel as if I'm changing the diapers of those new graduates and young
engineers that I doubt have ever wriggled a razors edge across the galena. 
Their education in the physics of EM consists of digits.  Small wonder they
look at me like I'm speaking some foreign tongue when I talk about the
orthogonal E and H fields propagating along the third axis, all that were
created by time varying voltages or currents.  Me thinks the next apprentice
should have a physics degree, double E's should be double D's for digital
designers.


- Bill
Indecision may or may not be the problem.

--- On Tue, 12/16/08, Cortland Richmond  wrote:

From: Cortland Richmond 
Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training
To: "Edward Price" , "emc-pstc" 
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 9:21 PM



Ed Price wrote
 
Perhaps you can take some comfort from Kipling's words of 125 years ago,
when he addressed the peculiar way that society only appreciates you when
they really, really need you:
 
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the
brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to
shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!
 


And Cortland Richmond replied:
 
Kipling is the soldier's patron saint.  I served 21 years:
 
(part of a longer work):
 
And know our living ever watch,
To ask, as we would do,
Is what you are, worth what we paid?
Is what we paid, worth YOU?
 
We are the currency you spend
For freedom, fear, or oil;
Our blood, the coin you pay,
Dark on some foreign soil.
 
copyright Cortland RIchmond
 
Ahem!
 
All said, msny firms seem not to understand that one designs OUT problems
(EMC or otherwise) and thereby saves money.
 
We need someone to speak at the EMC Symposium about the pychology of
getting our employers to do what is right.  As it is, I'm turning into a
(461/DO-160-/Part15)- waving missionary.  
 
 
 
Cortland KA5
 
-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to

 
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL.
 
Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List 

RE: EMC Eduction and Training

[Knighten, Jim L]

I’ve followed this thread and even contributed to it.  I chose to reply to
this post by random selection.  

 

Perhaps it is an axiom of life that those who have labored to gain special
skills (perhaps even wisdom) tend to berate those younger, less expert persons
who come behind them.  They are not practical enough, not knowledgeable
enough, don’t understand the language that I speak in well enough, don’t
have the experiences that I hold dear, don’t seem interested in the things
that I think are important, can’t ever step into my shoes.  I expect that my
mentors felt that way about me and my contemporaries, i.e., the world is going
to the dogs!  We managed, however, and the world continues to turn.

 

School is designed to give the student a basic set of tools, not the total
knowledge necessary to careers.  Engineers learn as much or more on the job as
they do in college.  EMC is a broad field, even though we all tend to see the
field through the narrow viewfinder that defines our jobs.   The EMC field
evolves as technology evolves.  Future jobs will not be carbon copies of our
jobs.  So, while it is entertaining and therapeutic to vent over the
shortcomings of our successors, along with academic institutions, let’s give
them a break!  Thankfully, our predecessors gave us a break (at least mine
did).

 

Jim

 

__ 

James L. Knighten, Ph.D. 
EMC Engineer 
Teradata Corporation 
17095 Via Del Campo 
San Diego, CA 92127 

858-485-2537 – phone 
858-485-3788 – fax (unattended) 







From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Bill Owsley
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 7:48 PM
To: Edward Price; emc-pstc; k...@earthlink.net
Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training

 

Having served nearly 40 years ago in the previous most unpopular war, Kiplings
words as quoted by  Mr. Cortland give me pause in the consideration of the
question asked.  I find wanting, the general "you" in the quote, and still
feel that the ideal of who the "you" should be, worthy of the price paid,
then, and now.

And now I feel as if I'm changing the diapers of those new graduates and young
engineers that I doubt have ever wriggled a razors edge across the galena. 
Their education in the physics of EM consists of digits.  Small wonder they
look at me like I'm speaking some foreign tongue when I talk about the
orthogonal E and H fields propagating along the third axis, all that were
created by time varying voltages or currents.  Me thinks the next apprentice
should have a physics degree, double E's should be double D's for digital
designers.


- Bill
Indecision may or may not be the problem.

--- On Tue, 12/16/08, Cortland Richmond  wrote:

From: Cortland Richmond 
Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training
To: "Edward Price" , "emc-pstc" 
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 9:21 PM



Ed Price wrote
 
Perhaps you can take some comfort from Kipling's words of 125 years ago,
when he addressed the peculiar way that society only appreciates you when
they really, really need you:
 
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the
brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to
shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!
 


And Cortland Richmond replied:
 
Kipling is the soldier's patron saint.  I served 21 years:
 
(part of a longer work):
 
And know our living ever watch,
To ask, as we would do,
Is what you are, worth what we paid?
Is what we paid, worth YOU?
 
We are the currency you spend
For freedom, fear, or oil;
Our blood, the coin you pay,
Dark on some foreign soil.
 
copyright Cortland RIchmond
 
Ahem!
 
All said, msny firms seem not to understand that one designs OUT problems
(EMC or otherwise) and thereby saves money.
 
We need someone to speak at the EMC Symposium about the pychology of
getting our employers to do what is right.  As it is, I'm turning into a
(461/DO-160-/Part15)- waving missionary.  
 
 
 
Cortland KA5
 
-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to

 
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL.
 
Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
 
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 
 
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 


-

This message is from the IEEE Product Saf

RE: EMC Eduction and Training

[Cortland Richmond]

When I can be mistaken for Kipling --  even Kipling on an off day -- that is
high praise indeed,
 
WRT the physics degrees...  my manager has mentioned that the same math taught
him in Physics courses was dry, and the engineering approach was interesting. 
But on these matters I am at disadvantage, as I have an unconventional
education and only took the NARTE exam this August. (That is another story; I
could have been grandfathered in 1993 and thought it an unnecessary expense). 
 
To the extent that universities educate student ready to learn how their after
they are hired, and that employers want people who don't have to be trained
on-the-job, EMC is, like other disciplines, either in need of further,
practical education, (from the employers' point of view) or to be teachable
later (from the schools' point of view.)This last approach takes mentors,
and in my opinion even more needs that 10-year-old's experience to work.  To a
point, internship is useful, if you can actually use the interns for EMC; I've
seen interns used for various jobs having little to do with their majors.
 
If this seems rambling, maybe it it; I am thinking this out as I type, always
a bad idea.
 
 
Cortland
KA5S
 
 

- Original Message - 
From: Bill Owsley <mailto:wdows...@yahoo.com>  
To: Edward Price <mailto:ed.pr...@cubic.com> ;emc-pstc
<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> ;k...@earthlink.net
Sent: 12/16/2008 10:48:01 PM 
    Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training


Having served nearly 40 years ago in the previous most unpopular war, Kiplings
words as quoted by  Mr. Cortland give me pause in the consideration of the
question asked.  I find wanting, the general "you" in the quote, and still
feel that the ideal of who the "you" should be, worthy of the price paid,
then, and now.

And now I feel as if I'm changing the diapers of those new graduates and young
engineers that I doubt have ever wriggled a razors edge across the galena. 
Their education in the physics of EM consists of digits.  Small wonder they
look at me like I'm speaking some foreign tongue when I talk about the
orthogonal E and H fields propagating along the third axis, all that were
created by time varying voltages or currents.  Me thinks the next apprentice
should have a physics degree, double E's should be double D's for digital
designers.



- Bill
Indecision may or may not be the problem.

--- On Tue, 12/16/08, Cortland Richmond  wrote:


From: Cortland Richmond 
Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training
To: "Edward Price" , "emc-pstc" 
Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 9:21 PM




---
Ed Price wrote

Perhaps you can take some comfort from Kipling's words of 125 years ago,
when he addressed the peculiar way that society only appreciates you 
when
they really, really need you:

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the
brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to
shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!




And Cortland Richmond replied:

Kipling is the soldier's patron saint.  I served 21 years:

(part of a longer work):

And know our living ever watch,
To ask, as we would do,
Is what you are, worth what we paid?
Is what we paid, worth YOU?

We are the currency you spend
For freedom, fear, or oil;
Our blood, the coin you pay,
Dark on some foreign soil.

copyright Cortland RIchmond

Ahem!

All said, msny firms seem not to understand that one designs OUT 
problems
(EMC or otherwise) and thereby saves money.

We need someone to speak at the EMC Symposium about the pychology of
getting our employers to do what is right.  As it is, I'm turning into a
(461/DO-160-/Part15)- waving missionary.  



Cortland KA5

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RE: EMC Eduction and Training

[Bill Owsley]

Having served nearly 40 years ago in the previous most unpopular war, Kiplings
words as quoted by  Mr. Cortland give me pause in the consideration of the
question asked.  I find wanting, the general "you" in the quote, and still
feel that the ideal of who the "you" should be, worthy of the price paid,
then, and now.

And now I feel as if I'm changing the diapers of those new graduates and young
engineers that I doubt have ever wriggled a razors edge across the galena. 
Their education in the physics of EM consists of digits.  Small wonder they
look at me like I'm speaking some foreign tongue when I talk about the
orthogonal E and H fields propagating along the third axis, all that were
created by time varying voltages or currents.  Me thinks the next apprentice
should have a physics degree, double E's should be double D's for digital
designers.



- Bill
Indecision may or may not be the problem.

--- On Tue, 12/16/08, Cortland Richmond  wrote:


From: Cortland Richmond 
    Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training
To: "Edward Price" , "emc-pstc" 
Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 9:21 PM




---
Ed Price wrote

Perhaps you can take some comfort from Kipling's words of 125 years ago,
when he addressed the peculiar way that society only appreciates you 
when
they really, really need you:

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the
brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to
shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!




And Cortland Richmond replied:

Kipling is the soldier's patron saint.  I served 21 years:

(part of a longer work):

And know our living ever watch,
To ask, as we would do,
Is what you are, worth what we paid?
Is what we paid, worth YOU?

We are the currency you spend
For freedom, fear, or oil;
Our blood, the coin you pay,
Dark on some foreign soil.

copyright Cortland RIchmond

Ahem!

All said, msny firms seem not to understand that one designs OUT 
problems
(EMC or otherwise) and thereby saves money.

We need someone to speak at the EMC Symposium about the pychology of
getting our employers to do what is right.  As it is, I'm turning into a
(461/DO-160-/Part15)- waving missionary.  



Cortland KA5

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RE: EMC Eduction and Training

[Cortland Richmond]

Ed Price wrote

Perhaps you can take some comfort from Kipling's words of 125 years ago,
when he addressed the peculiar way that society only appreciates you when
they really, really need you:

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!



And Cortland Richmond replied:

Kipling is the soldier's patron saint.  I served 21 years:

(part of a longer work):

And know our living ever watch,
To ask, as we would do,
Is what you are, worth what we paid?
Is what we paid, worth YOU?

We are the currency you spend
For freedom, fear, or oil;
Our blood, the coin you pay,
Dark on some foreign soil.

copyright Cortland RIchmond

Ahem!

All said, msny firms seem not to understand that one designs OUT problems
(EMC or otherwise) and thereby saves money.

We need someone to speak at the EMC Symposium about the pychology of
getting our employers to do what is right.  As it is, I'm turning into a
(461/DO-160-/Part15)- waving missionary.  



Cortland KA5

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RE: EMC Eduction and Training

[Ralph McDiarmid]

I would only add that there are those who learn something and those who simply 
learn how to pass a course.  The two groups normally find different career 
paths in the technology sector.


Ralph McDiarmid, AScT 
Compliance Engineering Group 
Xantrex Technology Inc



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John Woodgate
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 12:02 AM
To: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Re: EMC Eduction and Training

In message <380-22008122161942...@earthlink.net>, dated Mon, 15 Dec 
2008, Cortland Richmond  writes:

>I see this as having deep roots.  Many young people start College 
>without the background to appreciate our discipline. 

It's quite well established that to do electronics you should really 
start before age 10. I suspect that 'electronics' could be replaced by 
other disciplines.

Age 18 is mostly too late.
> 
>Maybe the schools need to hand out crystal sets.  Or is it too late to 
>awaken imaginations by then?

Yes.

>Are these people going to school simply to make money?  

Maybe, but the main point is that the don't have any idea of what career 
they want.
> 
>We are a distinct minority among the engineering  staff where we work.  
>We are a cost center, not a profit center, and often reminded of that. 

Without you, your company's products would not be in the market. So your 
costs should be compared with other **marketing** costs, such as the 
advertising budget.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
All these closing-downs have been caused by dozing clowns
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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RE: EMC Eduction and Training

[dward]

In keeping with the season and to insure beginning EMC engineers I recite,
with editorial license, Church’s response to Virginia O’Hanlon.

Virginia- I am 8 years old. Some of my little friends say there is no EMC and
that it is Black Magic.  Papa says, “If you see it on the emc-pstc, it’s
so.” Please tell me the truth, is EMC Black Magic? - Virginia O’Hanlon

 

Virginia, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the
skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except they see. They think
that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All
minds, Virginia, whether they be men’s or children’s, are little. In this
great universe of ours, man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect as
compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence
capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge. Yes, Virginia, there is
EMC and it is no Black Magic. It exists as certainly as love and generosity
and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its
highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no
EMC and if it were Black Magic! It would be as dreary as if there were no
Virginias. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to
make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense
and sight. The eternal light with which childhood fills the world would be
extinguished.

Not believe in EMC! You might as well not believe in ferrites, or absorbers.
You might get your papa to hire men to watch in all the stores to catch EMC,
but even if you did not see EMC coming down and interfering, what would that
prove? Nobody sees EMC, but that is no sign that there is no EMC. The most
real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see. Did
you ever see EMC fairies dancing on the lawn? Of course not, but that’s no
proof that they are not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders
there are unseen and unseeable in the world.

 

You tear apart the baby monitor and see what makes the noise inside, but there
is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, nor

even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived could tear
apart. Only faith, experience, love of the field, testing, can push aside that
curtain and view and picture the supernal beauty and glory beyond. Is it all
real? Ah, Virginia, in all this world there is nothing else real and abiding.

No EMC! Thank God! It exists and will forever. A thousand years from now,
Virginia, nay 10 times 10,000 years from now, EMC will continue to

make glad the heart of inquisitive engineers.

 

Merry Christmas

 

Dennis Ward 
Director of Engineering 
American TCB 
Certification Resource for the Wireless Industry www.atcb.com 
703-847-4700 fax 703-847-6888 
direct - 703-880-4841 

 

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Price, Edward
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 7:49 AM
To: EMC-PSTC
Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training

 

 



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Kunde, 
Brian
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 6:52 AM
To: EMC-PSTC
Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training

Hey, lets think about this for a minute.  Do we really want this “black
magic” stuff we do for a living to be better taught in universities?  Lets
face it, we have a good thing going here and we don’t need some greenhorn
engineer thinking he knows more about it than we do.  As mentioned earlier,
this job is more experience and technique than science.

  

The best EMC engineers and technicians I know where not taught in 
school, but
had been mentored by an older experienced EMC engineer.  Like a magician
passing on his secretes to his apprentice. This is how it has been done and
the way it has to be done.  

 

 

The Other Brian 

 

 

The Other Brian touches on an interesting and salient feature of the happy EMC
Engineer. EMC demands a more "hands on" approach than most of the other
disciplines. Those students who are not already building their own circuits
and frying their own power supplies will not do well in EMC, or at minimum,
will try to stay toward the academic / computational edge of EMC. To the
rigidly academic, it must be terrifying to discover that EMC problems have so
many unknowns and (usually) more than one solution.

 

I'm not so sure that a mentoring / apprentice system HAS to be the only way to
assure continuity, but, from my observation, it has been an effective and
efficient method. Certainly, we could get into an endless discussion of
whether our educational system rationally assigns talent to appropriate needs
(after all, they told me I could be anything I wanted; what they didn't tell
me was that what I wanted also had to be needed). Remember Pachinko and
Pinba

RE: EMC Eduction and Training

[Price, Edward]

From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Kunde, 
Brian
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 6:52 AM
To: EMC-PSTC
Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training



Hey, lets think about this for a minute.  Do we really want this “black
magic” stuff we do for a living to be better taught in universities?  Lets
face it, we have a good thing going here and we don’t need some greenhorn
engineer thinking he knows more about it than we do.  As mentioned earlier,
this job is more experience and technique than science.

  

The best EMC engineers and technicians I know where not taught in 
school, but
had been mentored by an older experienced EMC engineer.  Like a magician
passing on his secretes to his apprentice. This is how it has been done and
the way it has to be done.  

  

 

The Other Brian 

 

 

The Other Brian touches on an interesting and salient feature of the happy EMC
Engineer. EMC demands a more "hands on" approach than most of the other
disciplines. Those students who are not already building their own circuits
and frying their own power supplies will not do well in EMC, or at minimum,
will try to stay toward the academic / computational edge of EMC. To the
rigidly academic, it must be terrifying to discover that EMC problems have so
many unknowns and (usually) more than one solution.

 

I'm not so sure that a mentoring / apprentice system HAS to be the only way to
assure continuity, but, from my observation, it has been an effective and
efficient method. Certainly, we could get into an endless discussion of
whether our educational system rationally assigns talent to appropriate needs
(after all, they told me I could be anything I wanted; what they didn't tell
me was that what I wanted also had to be needed). Remember Pachinko and
Pinball machines? There's something fascinating about watching the life-arc of
a ball, despite us knowing with 6-sigma certainty the origin and destination
of every ball.

 

Uhhh, what was the question?

 

 

Ed Price
ed.pr...@cubic.com mailto:ed.pr...@cubic.com>  WB6WSN
NARTE Certified EMC Engineer
Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab
Cubic Defense Applications
San Diego, CA  USA
858-505-2780
Military & Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty
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RE: EMC Eduction and Training

[Price, Edward]

> -Original Message-
> From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf
> Of Cortland Richmond
> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 3:11 AM
> To: emc-p...@ieee.org
> Subject: Re: EMC Eduction and Training
>
> That is the argument I used at Wang.
>
> "How much do you make us every year?  "
>
> "Nothing. But you'd pay out $8 million more a year if we
> weren't here."
>
> NOT what they wanted to hear. It never is.   FWIW... I have EMC as a
> *quality* function. No one else does everything.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Cortland
> KA5S


Perhaps you can take some comfort from Kipling's words of 125 years ago, when
he addressed the peculiar way that society only appreciates you when they
really, really need you:

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees! 


Ed Price
ed.pr...@cubic.com mailto:ed.pr...@cubic.com>  WB6WSN
NARTE Certified EMC Engineer
Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab
Cubic Defense Applications
San Diego, CA  USA
858-505-2780
Military & Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty
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RE: EMC Eduction and Training

[Kunde, Brian]

Hey, lets think about this for a minute.  Do we really want this “black
magic” stuff we do for a living to be better taught in universities?  Lets
face it, we have a good thing going here and we don’t need some greenhorn
engineer thinking he knows more about it than we do.  As mentioned earlier,
this job is more experience and technique than science and Engineers can’t
fix EMC problems by doing a few equations in their office. While an engineer
is trying to program some ICE simulation, I walk in, snap on a few ferrite
beads and some copper tape and I’m a freakin genius. Then I collect my
massive paycheck and go home early.  EMC Engineers are special. A good one is
hard to find and worth their huge paychecks. So let’s not give in all away
like those guys on the Fox Network who reveal how magic tricks are done. 

 

Lets face it, engineers do not want to know or understand this EMC stuff for
they have enough to try and remember.  When I started working here 12 years
ago I setup a series of in-house seminars which the engineers slept through. 
It didn’t change a single thing. So now I don’t even try to teach them my
job, just to know when to call me in and save the day (isn’t it like that
where you work?). 

 

The best EMC engineers and technicians I know where not taught in school, but
had been mentored by an older experienced EMC engineer.  Like a magician
passing on his secretes to his apprentice.  I was blessed to know and work
with Bud Lang and Dar Evens (Heath Kit ham radio engineers) and sit in the
audience of seminars presented by true pioneers in the trade such as Herb
Martel, Don White, Ron Brewer, Don Sweeney, (the list goes on and on). 

 

I’m been doing this for nearly 25 years and back in the day everyone knew
everyone in the biz. It didn’t matter who you were or who you worked for; we
worked together to figure it out; we shared information with one another (like
this email group), and we went to every seminar or trade show we could but
learned more during the bull sessions afterwards than during the classes. This
is how it has been done and the way it has to be done.  

 

IMHO with a little tongue in cheek. 

 

The Other Brian

 



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Knighten, Jim L
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 4:39 PM
To: Alan E Hutley; EMC-PSTC
Subject: RE: EMC Eduction and Training

 

Alan,

 

In the US the best-known university programs in EMC may be The Missouri School
of Science & Technology (formerly U. of Missouri- Rolla) and Clemson, but
there are other schools with programs or classes in one or more aspects of
EMC.  From my vantage point, these programs offer from among following topics:
(1) printed circuit board noise mechanisms (power bus, etc.); automotive EMC;
and (3) other (shielding, cables, ESD, etc.).  

 

A lot of emphasis in academia (worldwide) is in the arena of modeling.  A lot
of graduate students that are pursuing advanced degrees are modeling various
EMC or EM issues with various methods and tools.  This is an arena in which
academia has a lot to offer and they find it attractive.  Signal integrity
studies go hand in hand with printed circuit board noise suppression topics
and modeling.  A number of schools will offer modeling to graduate students
even if they don’t have a full curriculum in EMC topics.  

 

A few schools are offering automotive EMC programs since there has been a need
and funding sources to support this topic.  Academic programs that extend
beyond a few classes in an overall electrical engineering curriculum require
outside funding, either from industry or the government.  

 

Successful programs, such as the Missouri case, have been driven by (1)
technology, i.e., high-speed signaling; (2) requirements (more so by basic
emissions requirements rather than by the EU’s immunity requirements); (3)
by industry needs that are driven by requirements (need to fix a vexing
problem for the future, but industry does not have manpower/time to study it
themselves); and usually later in time by (4) government wanting to fund the
dissemination of this knowledge to other educational channels.

 

The successful academic program is one that is timely in offering this
expertise to industry (some luck in being at the right place at the right
time), able so solve knotty problems in detail so as to offer help in future
designs (provide a benefit to industry), able to attract a steady influx of
good students to do the work, and successfully market the program by
publishing papers and presenting at conferences.  Government interest or
understanding of the need for this sort of education is usually late to the
table.

 

Jim

 

__ 

James L. Knighten, Ph.D. 
EMC Engineer 
Teradata Corporation 
17095 Via Del Campo 
San Diego, CA 92127 

858-485-2537 – phone 
858-485-3788 – fax (unattended) 

 



From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee

Re: EMC Eduction and Training

[Cortland Richmond]

That is the argument I used at Wang. 

"How much do you make us every year?  "

"Nothing. But you'd pay out $8 million more a year if we weren't here."

NOT what they wanted to hear. It never is.   FWIW... I have EMC as a
*quality* function. No one else does everything. 

Cheers!

Cortland
KA5S


> I wrote:
> >We are a distinct minority among the engineering  staff where we work.  
> >We are a cost center, not a profit center, and often reminded of that. 
>
>  John Woodgate wrote:
> Without you, your company's products would not be in the market. So your 
> costs should be compared with other **marketing** costs, such as the 
> advertising budget.

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Re: EMC Eduction and Training

[Fred Townsend]

I think you hit the nail on the head when referring to deep roots. I think the
color of the roots are green. I can remember tracing the steep decline in
engineering enrollment during the eighties to statements like 'engineers cause
pollution'. At the same time a salesman lambasted my conservative
(engineering) approach to investment by stating, 'If it had been up to you
engineers we would have never built the Golden Gate Bridge'. He was claiming
credit for the salesmen! Now we have politicians who can't read a thermometer
teaching global warming?  I think engineering needs better PR.

Fred Townsend
DC to Light


Cortland Richmond wrote: 

I see this as having deep roots.  Many young people start College 
without the
background to appreciate our discipline.These students have never listened
to radio; they've only turned on a box or a compact player/stereo and stuck
headphones in their ears. They will learn, if they take up engineering
(Engineering?  Yeah, they make lots of money; put me down for engineering.) 
about Faraday, Ohm, Volta , Hertz, Lenz and Maxwell, (MAYBE, about Farnsworth
and Zworykin) but what they learn will not have reality to them beyond the
mathematics necessary to describe certain physical phenomena they never expect
to encounter.  
 
That may exaggerate -- a little. 
 
Well and all, they are more educated than I, even so.   But I've been 
doing
this work 25 years, and when in 1983, I walked into an EMC facility at Wang
Labs in Massachusetts, I was able to do and understand the tests they needed
done, never having done them before.It is amazing how little one need
know, to know more than others.
 
Maybe the schools need to hand out crystal sets.  Or is it too late to 
awaken
imaginations by then? Are these people going to school simply to make money?   
 
We are a distinct minority among the engineering  staff where we work.  
We
are a cost center, not a profit center, and often reminded of that.  We're not
romantic, We're not even attractive nerds.  And schools must make money. 
Given that the marketplace doesn't make us look like a good bet,  the
institutions you found may be all the market will bear. 
 
 
 
Cortland, KA5S
 

- Original Message - 
From: Alan E Hutley   
To: EMC-PSTC  
Sent: 12/15/2008 10:19:16 AM 
Subject: EMC Eduction and Training


Hello All
 
I recently posted a request for information on Universities 
that offer EMC
Educational activities. I thank those that responded but was very surprised by
the very small number of Universities involved. I would like therefore to
widen the debate.
 
EMC Education and Training
Behind EMC lays the Technology and Science of Electromagnetism, 
Signal
Integrity and RF Engineering... EMC is a by-product of these disciplines. Over
the past dozen or so years EMC has been largely, if not entirely, driven by
Directives and Regulations. Around this scenario has evolved a specialised
product industry together with consultants and soothsayers.
Without the furore of this activity, EMC would almost certainly 
not have
been on the RADAR to the extent that it has been. Could this be the reason why
formal qualifications and academic training has not evolved at the same pace
or magnitude?
 Is the apparent lack of resources committed to Training and 
Education due
to the relevant organisations and Governments lack of understanding with
respect to the complexity surrounding EMC... or are there other reasons.
Invariably, or at least in many cases, Engineers seem to have 
ended up
becoming EMC Engineers by default, not design. Does anyone actually set out
with the sole purpose of becoming an EMC Engineer?  Did you?
I am interested in the views of others and finding out what 
resources are
currently available, plus I would like to hear from Trainers, Educators,
Course Presenters, EMC Engineers, Consultants and anyone else that can
contribute to the debate by expressing their opinions.
Thank you.
 
Alan E Hutley
The EMC Journal
www.theemcjournal.com

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Re: EMC Eduction and Training

[John Woodgate]

In message <380-22008122161942...@earthlink.net>, dated Mon, 15 Dec 
2008, Cortland Richmond  writes:

>I see this as having deep roots.  Many young people start College 
>without the background to appreciate our discipline. 

It's quite well established that to do electronics you should really 
start before age 10. I suspect that 'electronics' could be replaced by 
other disciplines.

Age 18 is mostly too late.
> 
>Maybe the schools need to hand out crystal sets.  Or is it too late to 
>awaken imaginations by then?

Yes.

>Are these people going to school simply to make money?  

Maybe, but the main point is that the don't have any idea of what career 
they want.
> 
>We are a distinct minority among the engineering  staff where we work.  
>We are a cost center, not a profit center, and often reminded of that. 

Without you, your company's products would not be in the market. So your 
costs should be compared with other **marketing** costs, such as the 
advertising budget.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
All these closing-downs have been caused by dozing clowns
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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RE: EMC Eduction and Training

[Cortland Richmond]

I see this as having deep roots.  Many young people start College without the
background to appreciate our discipline.These students have never listened
to radio; they've only turned on a box or a compact player/stereo and stuck
headphones in their ears. They will learn, if they take up engineering
(Engineering?  Yeah, they make lots of money; put me down for engineering.) 
about Faraday, Ohm, Volta , Hertz, Lenz and Maxwell, (MAYBE, about Farnsworth
and Zworykin) but what they learn will not have reality to them beyond the
mathematics necessary to describe certain physical phenomena they never expect
to encounter.  
 
That may exaggerate -- a little. 
 
Well and all, they are more educated than I, even so.   But I've been doing
this work 25 years, and when in 1983, I walked into an EMC facility at Wang
Labs in Massachusetts, I was able to do and understand the tests they needed
done, never having done them before.It is amazing how little one need
know, to know more than others.
 
Maybe the schools need to hand out crystal sets.  Or is it too late to awaken
imaginations by then? Are these people going to school simply to make money?   
 
We are a distinct minority among the engineering  staff where we work.  We are
a cost center, not a profit center, and often reminded of that.  We're not
romantic, We're not even attractive nerds.  And schools must make money. 
Given that the marketplace doesn't make us look like a good bet,  the
institutions you found may be all the market will bear. 
 
 
 
Cortland, KA5S
 

- Original Message - 
From: Alan E Hutley   
To: EMC-PSTC  
Sent: 12/15/2008 10:19:16 AM 
Subject: EMC Eduction and Training


Hello All
 
I recently posted a request for information on Universities that offer 
EMC
Educational activities. I thank those that responded but was very surprised by
the very small number of Universities involved. I would like therefore to
widen the debate.
 
EMC Education and Training
Behind EMC lays the Technology and Science of Electromagnetism, Signal
Integrity and RF Engineering... EMC is a by-product of these disciplines. Over
the past dozen or so years EMC has been largely, if not entirely, driven by
Directives and Regulations. Around this scenario has evolved a specialised
product industry together with consultants and soothsayers.
Without the furore of this activity, EMC would almost certainly not 
have been
on the RADAR to the extent that it has been. Could this be the reason why
formal qualifications and academic training has not evolved at the same pace
or magnitude?
 Is the apparent lack of resources committed to Training and Education 
due to
the relevant organisations and Governments lack of understanding with respect
to the complexity surrounding EMC... or are there other reasons.
Invariably, or at least in many cases, Engineers seem to have ended up
becoming EMC Engineers by default, not design. Does anyone actually set out
with the sole purpose of becoming an EMC Engineer?  Did you?
I am interested in the views of others and finding out what resources 
are
currently available, plus I would like to hear from Trainers, Educators,
Course Presenters, EMC Engineers, Consultants and anyone else that can
contribute to the debate by expressing their opinions.
Thank you.
 
Alan E Hutley
The EMC Journal
www.theemcjournal.com

-

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Re: EMC Eduction and Training

[John Woodgate]

In message <4946d305.3020...@sbcglobal.net>, dated Mon, 15 Dec 2008, 
Fred Townsend  writes:

>The academic view is strange.


I don't think that 'strange' is the right word.

>I will never forget an advanced amplifier design class where I was 
>supposed to calculate the proper value of a bypass capacitor. The 
>'correct' answer was 87.5 microfarads. Never mind you can't buy an 87.5 
>uF cap and therefore the design is unrealizable until proper 
>tolerancing is applied.

Academics, even teaching engineering, mostly do science rather than 
engineering. They don't bother with practical details, and in many 
cases, don't even know about what standard component values are 
available. I've met two 'engineering graduates (one English, one French) 
who calculated resistor values to 1 part in 10^4 or so, and made the 
values up from series-parallel combinations of standard parts. They had 
never even HEARD of tolerances, let alone preferred values.

Science says '87.5 uF'; engineering says 'Maybe a 100 uF will do, even 
at -20% tolerance. Let's try it.'

-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
All these closing-downs have been caused by dozing clowns
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

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Re: EMC Eduction and Training

[Fred Townsend]

I agree on the relevance of RF, SI, and EM to EMC since I do all three. I
marvel that academia hasn't figured it out. I don't know of any schools that
really tie them together.  Perhaps it is because of the ways we address them.
RF is tends toward frequency domain while SI tends to be time domain. Industry
addresses both from the standpoint that they are needed to make the circuit
work. On the other hand EMC is what is needed to sell the product. Except for
the military, the industry attitude is not to prevent the problem (EMC) unless
someone is complaining about the stink. 

The academic view is strange. I will never forget an advanced amplifier design
class where I was supposed to calculate the proper value of a bypass
capacitor. The 'correct' answer was 87.5 microfarads. Never mind you can't buy
an 87.5 uF cap and therefore the design is unrealizable until proper
tolerancing is applied. In terms of EMC the student is really sold down the
river. For instance, switching regulators will be taught from the standpoint
that either a capacitor or an inductor may be used to store energy. I have
never seen a curriculum that tells the student inductors are much more likely
to cause EMC problems than a capacitor.

Fred Townsend
DC to Light

Alan E Hutley wrote: 

Hello All
 
I recently posted a request for information on Universities that offer 
EMC
Educational activities. I thank those that responded but was very surprised by
the very small number of Universities involved. I would like therefore to
widen the debate.
 
EMC Education and Training
Behind EMC lays the Technology and Science of Electromagnetism, Signal
Integrity and RF Engineering... EMC is a by-product of these disciplines. Over
the past dozen or so years EMC has been largely, if not entirely, driven by
Directives and Regulations. Around this scenario has evolved a specialised
product industry together with consultants and soothsayers.
Without the furore of this activity, EMC would almost certainly not 
have been
on the RADAR to the extent that it has been. Could this be the reason why
formal qualifications and academic training has not evolved at the same pace
or magnitude?
 Is the apparent lack of resources committed to Training and Education 
due to
the relevant organisations and Governments lack of understanding with respect
to the complexity surrounding EMC... or are there other reasons.
Invariably, or at least in many cases, Engineers seem to have ended up
becoming EMC Engineers by default, not design. Does anyone actually set out
with the sole purpose of becoming an EMC Engineer?  Did you?
I am interested in the views of others and finding out what resources 
are
currently available, plus I would like to hear from Trainers, Educators,
Course Presenters, EMC Engineers, Consultants and anyone else that can
contribute to the debate by expressing their opinions.
Thank you.
 
Alan E Hutley
The EMC Journal
www.theemcjournal.com
 
 
 
-

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Mike Cantwell  

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RE: EMC Eduction and Training

[Knighten, Jim L]

Alan,

 

In the US the best-known university programs in EMC may be The Missouri School
of Science & Technology (formerly U. of Missouri- Rolla) and Clemson, but
there are other schools with programs or classes in one or more aspects of
EMC.  From my vantage point, these programs offer from among following topics:
(1) printed circuit board noise mechanisms (power bus, etc.); automotive EMC;
and (3) other (shielding, cables, ESD, etc.).  

 

A lot of emphasis in academia (worldwide) is in the arena of modeling.  A lot
of graduate students that are pursuing advanced degrees are modeling various
EMC or EM issues with various methods and tools.  This is an arena in which
academia has a lot to offer and they find it attractive.  Signal integrity
studies go hand in hand with printed circuit board noise suppression topics
and modeling.  A number of schools will offer modeling to graduate students
even if they don’t have a full curriculum in EMC topics.  

 

A few schools are offering automotive EMC programs since there has been a need
and funding sources to support this topic.  Academic programs that extend
beyond a few classes in an overall electrical engineering curriculum require
outside funding, either from industry or the government.  

 

Successful programs, such as the Missouri case, have been driven by (1)
technology, i.e., high-speed signaling; (2) requirements (more so by basic
emissions requirements rather than by the EU’s immunity requirements); (3)
by industry needs that are driven by requirements (need to fix a vexing
problem for the future, but industry does not have manpower/time to study it
themselves); and usually later in time by (4) government wanting to fund the
dissemination of this knowledge to other educational channels.

 

The successful academic program is one that is timely in offering this
expertise to industry (some luck in being at the right place at the right
time), able so solve knotty problems in detail so as to offer help in future
designs (provide a benefit to industry), able to attract a steady influx of
good students to do the work, and successfully market the program by
publishing papers and presenting at conferences.  Government interest or
understanding of the need for this sort of education is usually late to the
table.

 

Jim

 

__ 

James L. Knighten, Ph.D. 
EMC Engineer 
Teradata Corporation 
17095 Via Del Campo 
San Diego, CA 92127 

858-485-2537 – phone 
858-485-3788 – fax (unattended) 







From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Alan E Hutley
Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 7:19 AM
To: EMC-PSTC
Subject: EMC Eduction and Training

 

Hello All

 

I recently posted a request for information on Universities that offer EMC
Educational activities. I thank those that responded but was very surprised by
the very small number of Universities involved. I would like therefore to
widen the debate.

 

EMC Education and Training

Behind EMC lays the Technology and Science of Electromagnetism, Signal
Integrity and RF Engineering... EMC is a by-product of these disciplines. Over
the past dozen or so years EMC has been largely, if not entirely, driven by
Directives and Regulations. Around this scenario has evolved a specialised
product industry together with consultants and soothsayers.

Without the furore of this activity, EMC would almost certainly not have been
on the RADAR to the extent that it has been. Could this be the reason why
formal qualifications and academic training has not evolved at the same pace
or magnitude?

 Is the apparent lack of resources committed to Training and Education due to
the relevant organisations and Governments lack of understanding with respect
to the complexity surrounding EMC... or are there other reasons.

Invariably, or at least in many cases, Engineers seem to have ended up
becoming EMC Engineers by default, not design. Does anyone actually set out
with the sole purpose of becoming an EMC Engineer?  Did you?

I am interested in the views of others and finding out what resources are
currently available, plus I would like to hear from Trainers, Educators,
Course Presenters, EMC Engineers, Consultants and anyone else that can
contribute to the debate by expressing their opinions.

Thank you.

 

Alan E Hutley

The EMC Journal

www.theemcjournal.com

 

 

 

-

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Re: EMC Eduction and Training

[John Woodgate]

In message <2008121515197.344647@Alan-PC>, dated Mon, 15 Dec 2008, Alan 
E Hutley  writes:

>Without the furore of this activity, EMC would almost certainly not 
>have been on the RADAR to the extent that it has been.

Agreed; the 1989 Directive widened greatly the range of products subject 
to emission and immunity control. Before then, only a few people knew, 
or needed to know, about EMC, in countries other than Germany and 
Austria. They were different because of the restrictions placed on their 
AM broadcasting post-1945, which prompted a drive to lower the EM noise 
floor.

>Could this be the reason why formal qualifications and academic 
>training has not evolved at the same pace or magnitude?

Probably not a major factor. Academics have to pursue funding, because 
that's how the system is set up. But it appears that few did pursue 
funding for EMC, and I suspect that is because it's a bit too much 
'engineering' rather than 'science', which is not attractive to many 
academics. One could say, 'EMC? It's Maxwell's Equations. The rest is 
just arithmetic!'.

A lot of the science of EMC has been pursued in Germany, Switzerland and 
Poland, not in the countries around the North Sea.

> Is the apparent lack of resources committed to Training and Education 
>due to the relevant organisations and Governments lack of understanding 
>with respect to the complexity surrounding EMC... or are there other 
>reasons.

Governments understand very little about training needs. They tend to be 
led by the nose by a certain type of 'educationalist', who have an 
approach which I think many engineers would find incomprehensible and 
not well-directed.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk
All these closing-downs have been caused by dozing clowns
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

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