Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[I am the eternal]

On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 10:13 PM, grate. swan wrote:

> Yes but if you really really feel it in your gut, its true. That's how
> I roll. And if God talks to you, its slam dunk true.


I'm sorry.  I was looking over another planet.  Did you summon me?

Incidently, quite a number of the  FFL members and I need to have a serious
talk.  How about let's all meet at my house before the game on Sunday?
Bring the kids.  Oh.  And none of this puja stuff.  Remember my first
commandment?   Oh one more thing.  Keep using my name in vain and I'll make
rush hour longer.

[FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[grate . swan]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Marek Reavis" 
wrote:
>
> "Mistaking the intensity of belief for its epistemological
> justification is one of the most important traps to avoid in sorting
> out the natural human bias for believing that our POV doesn't need any
> more supporting evidence than its enthusiastic assertion."
> 
>

Yes but if you really really feel it in your gut, its true. That's how
I roll. And if God talks to you, its slam dunk true.  (paraphrasing GWB)

[FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Marek Reavis" 
wrote (quoting Curtis):
>
> "Mistaking the intensity of belief for its epistemological
> justification is one of the most important traps to avoid 
> in sorting out the natural human bias for believing that 
> our POV doesn't need any more supporting evidence than 
> its enthusiastic assertion."

"Certainty is an emotion, not a fact."
- Father Flynn, "Doubt"

[FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[curtisdeltablues]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Marek Reavis" 
wrote:
>
> "Mistaking the intensity of belief for its epistemological
> justification is one of the most important traps to avoid in sorting
> out the natural human bias for believing that our POV doesn't need any
> more supporting evidence than its enthusiastic assertion."
> 
> **
> 
> Curtis, this quote (above), not to mention the rest of the post, nail 
> the issue directly.  
> 
> You'd make a hell of a trial lawyer.  I'm continually impressed by 
> your posts.

Thanks for the good vibes brother!  You'd make a hell of a trial
lawyer too...why wait a second... you ARE one!  I rest my case.


> 
> **
> 
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" 
>  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "amritasyaputra"
> >  wrote:
> > >
> > >  me, 
> > > that is a religious concept.>
> > > 
> > > So the so-called "Theory of Everything" in Physics is a religious 
> > > theory, hmm?
> > 
> > This is the heart of the disconnect in our different POVs I think.  
> If
> > you want to do what Judy seems to be doing and calling the Vedic
> > teaching a "working hypothesis" which is exactly what the TOE is all
> > about, then you might be closer to it not being a religious 
> assertion.
> >  But this is the phrase Ruth was commenting on:
> > 
> >  Veda is Sanatan Dharm, the 
> > > eternal > > > way of life. NO religion. 
> > 
> > Remember that Sanatana Dharma includes detailed instructions of the
> > most repressive social organization in history, the caste system. It
> > is being presented in a religious context as being an absolute, 
> handed
> > down from antiquity through India's scriptures without being 
> modified
> > by present experiences which is the opposite of physic's attempt to
> > develop a TOE.
> > 
> > So for example if I were to say that the caste system that requires
> > that some people how are born in the "clean up other people's 
> doodie"
> > caste can NEVER rise above that by taking a computer class and 
> getting
> > a job at the Bangalore AOL call center is wrong...then the answer
> > would be that I just don't understand that this organization of
> > society is the best thing for the person's evolution assuming that
> > there is reincarnation and that they will come back next life in a
> > higher caste if they do their doodie cleaning really well in this
> > life.  These are religious beliefs.  They are not subject to 
> revision
> > with modern sense of ethic concerning human rights.
> > 
> > It is not the attempt to explain how everything works that defines
> > some body of knowledge as religious. It is the appeal to an 
> authority
> > as the reason for the belief. A claim that this body of knowledge is
> > "the eternal way of life" for example.  
> > 
> > Mistaking the intensity of belief for its epistemological
> > justification is one of the most important traps to avoid in sorting
> > out the natural human bias for believing that our POV doesn't need 
> any
> > more supporting evidence than its enthusiastic assertion. 
> > 
> > It does if we care about the truth in a scientific sense.
> > But religion pull this move all the time.
> > 
> >
> > 
> > 
> > > 
> > > Well, continue to worry your ...
> > > 
> > > You and your fiends here seem to see religion everywhere! 
> Actually, 
> > > also nice.
> > > 
> > > With best wishes
> > > 
> > > Shaas
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity  
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "amritasyaputra"
> > > >  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks, that's what I am saying too:  > > > > obviously not a religion>
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > THerefore, we can close that boring discussion. Just practise 
> it 
> > > and 
> > > > > don't bother about all those theories.
> > > > 
> > > > Well, I worry my pretty little head about these theories.  
> > > > > 
> > > > > And Veda, too, is not a religion.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Maybe Hinduism is but Veda is not. Veda is Sanatan Dharm, the 
> > > eternal 
> > > > > way of life. NO religion. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > It is a knowledge pertaining to the whole so certainly 
> including 
> > > > > religion as any other knowledge.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Our root is in Veda, not Hinduism
> > > > > 
> > > > > Shaas
> > > > 
> > > > I guess you told us! "The eternal way of life" is a religious 
> > > concept.
> > > >  Religion deals with ultimate questions.  I get the feeling 
> that to
> > > > call TM or the Vedas religion minimizes both in the TB's mind. 
> You 
> > > say
> > > > Veda is more than religion, it is everything.  Well, to me, 
> that is 
> > > a
> > > > religious concept.  Everything else must fit or be bent to fit 
> the
> > > > concepts of the Vedas.  Meditation is a technique of this 
> religion. 
> > > > Much like taking communion or going to confession is a 
> technique of
> > > > the Catholic. 
> > > > 
> > > > So Shaas, do you believe in hovering?  In Jyo

[FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[Marek Reavis]

"Mistaking the intensity of belief for its epistemological
justification is one of the most important traps to avoid in sorting
out the natural human bias for believing that our POV doesn't need any
more supporting evidence than its enthusiastic assertion."

**

Curtis, this quote (above), not to mention the rest of the post, nail 
the issue directly.  

You'd make a hell of a trial lawyer.  I'm continually impressed by 
your posts.

**

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "curtisdeltablues" 
 wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "amritasyaputra"
>  wrote:
> >
> >  > that is a religious concept.>
> > 
> > So the so-called "Theory of Everything" in Physics is a religious 
> > theory, hmm?
> 
> This is the heart of the disconnect in our different POVs I think.  
If
> you want to do what Judy seems to be doing and calling the Vedic
> teaching a "working hypothesis" which is exactly what the TOE is all
> about, then you might be closer to it not being a religious 
assertion.
>  But this is the phrase Ruth was commenting on:
> 
>  Veda is Sanatan Dharm, the 
> > eternal > > > way of life. NO religion. 
> 
> Remember that Sanatana Dharma includes detailed instructions of the
> most repressive social organization in history, the caste system. It
> is being presented in a religious context as being an absolute, 
handed
> down from antiquity through India's scriptures without being 
modified
> by present experiences which is the opposite of physic's attempt to
> develop a TOE.
> 
> So for example if I were to say that the caste system that requires
> that some people how are born in the "clean up other people's 
doodie"
> caste can NEVER rise above that by taking a computer class and 
getting
> a job at the Bangalore AOL call center is wrong...then the answer
> would be that I just don't understand that this organization of
> society is the best thing for the person's evolution assuming that
> there is reincarnation and that they will come back next life in a
> higher caste if they do their doodie cleaning really well in this
> life.  These are religious beliefs.  They are not subject to 
revision
> with modern sense of ethic concerning human rights.
> 
> It is not the attempt to explain how everything works that defines
> some body of knowledge as religious. It is the appeal to an 
authority
> as the reason for the belief. A claim that this body of knowledge is
> "the eternal way of life" for example.  
> 
> Mistaking the intensity of belief for its epistemological
> justification is one of the most important traps to avoid in sorting
> out the natural human bias for believing that our POV doesn't need 
any
> more supporting evidence than its enthusiastic assertion. 
> 
> It does if we care about the truth in a scientific sense.
> But religion pull this move all the time.
> 
>
> 
> 
> > 
> > Well, continue to worry your ...
> > 
> > You and your fiends here seem to see religion everywhere! 
Actually, 
> > also nice.
> > 
> > With best wishes
> > 
> > Shaas
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity  
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "amritasyaputra"
> > >  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thanks, that's what I am saying too:  > > > obviously not a religion>
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > THerefore, we can close that boring discussion. Just practise 
it 
> > and 
> > > > don't bother about all those theories.
> > > 
> > > Well, I worry my pretty little head about these theories.  
> > > > 
> > > > And Veda, too, is not a religion.
> > > > 
> > > > Maybe Hinduism is but Veda is not. Veda is Sanatan Dharm, the 
> > eternal 
> > > > way of life. NO religion. 
> > > > 
> > > > It is a knowledge pertaining to the whole so certainly 
including 
> > > > religion as any other knowledge.
> > > > 
> > > > Our root is in Veda, not Hinduism
> > > > 
> > > > Shaas
> > > 
> > > I guess you told us! "The eternal way of life" is a religious 
> > concept.
> > >  Religion deals with ultimate questions.  I get the feeling 
that to
> > > call TM or the Vedas religion minimizes both in the TB's mind. 
You 
> > say
> > > Veda is more than religion, it is everything.  Well, to me, 
that is 
> > a
> > > religious concept.  Everything else must fit or be bent to fit 
the
> > > concepts of the Vedas.  Meditation is a technique of this 
religion. 
> > > Much like taking communion or going to confession is a 
technique of
> > > the Catholic. 
> > > 
> > > So Shaas, do you believe in hovering?  In Jyotish?  In doing 
the 
> > puja?
> > > In pulse diagnosis of illness?  That east facing homes are 
better 
> > than
> > > west facing homes?  How religious are you?
> > >
> >
>

[FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[curtisdeltablues]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "amritasyaputra"
 wrote:
>
>  that is a religious concept.>
> 
> So the so-called "Theory of Everything" in Physics is a religious 
> theory, hmm?

This is the heart of the disconnect in our different POVs I think.  If
you want to do what Judy seems to be doing and calling the Vedic
teaching a "working hypothesis" which is exactly what the TOE is all
about, then you might be closer to it not being a religious assertion.
 But this is the phrase Ruth was commenting on:

 Veda is Sanatan Dharm, the 
> eternal > > > way of life. NO religion. 

Remember that Sanatana Dharma includes detailed instructions of the
most repressive social organization in history, the caste system. It
is being presented in a religious context as being an absolute, handed
down from antiquity through India's scriptures without being modified
by present experiences which is the opposite of physic's attempt to
develop a TOE.

So for example if I were to say that the caste system that requires
that some people how are born in the "clean up other people's doodie"
caste can NEVER rise above that by taking a computer class and getting
a job at the Bangalore AOL call center is wrong...then the answer
would be that I just don't understand that this organization of
society is the best thing for the person's evolution assuming that
there is reincarnation and that they will come back next life in a
higher caste if they do their doodie cleaning really well in this
life.  These are religious beliefs.  They are not subject to revision
with modern sense of ethic concerning human rights.

It is not the attempt to explain how everything works that defines
some body of knowledge as religious. It is the appeal to an authority
as the reason for the belief. A claim that this body of knowledge is
"the eternal way of life" for example.  

Mistaking the intensity of belief for its epistemological
justification is one of the most important traps to avoid in sorting
out the natural human bias for believing that our POV doesn't need any
more supporting evidence than its enthusiastic assertion. 

It does if we care about the truth in a scientific sense.
But religion pull this move all the time.

   


> 
> Well, continue to worry your ...
> 
> You and your fiends here seem to see religion everywhere! Actually, 
> also nice.
> 
> With best wishes
> 
> Shaas
> 
> 
> 
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity  
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "amritasyaputra"
> >  wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks, that's what I am saying too:  > > obviously not a religion>
> > 
> > 
> > > 
> > > THerefore, we can close that boring discussion. Just practise it 
> and 
> > > don't bother about all those theories.
> > 
> > Well, I worry my pretty little head about these theories.  
> > > 
> > > And Veda, too, is not a religion.
> > > 
> > > Maybe Hinduism is but Veda is not. Veda is Sanatan Dharm, the 
> eternal 
> > > way of life. NO religion. 
> > > 
> > > It is a knowledge pertaining to the whole so certainly including 
> > > religion as any other knowledge.
> > > 
> > > Our root is in Veda, not Hinduism
> > > 
> > > Shaas
> > 
> > I guess you told us! "The eternal way of life" is a religious 
> concept.
> >  Religion deals with ultimate questions.  I get the feeling that to
> > call TM or the Vedas religion minimizes both in the TB's mind. You 
> say
> > Veda is more than religion, it is everything.  Well, to me, that is 
> a
> > religious concept.  Everything else must fit or be bent to fit the
> > concepts of the Vedas.  Meditation is a technique of this religion. 
> > Much like taking communion or going to confession is a technique of
> > the Catholic. 
> > 
> > So Shaas, do you believe in hovering?  In Jyotish?  In doing the 
> puja?
> > In pulse diagnosis of illness?  That east facing homes are better 
> than
> > west facing homes?  How religious are you?
> >
>

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[Vaj]

On Jan 27, 2009, at 8:22 AM, cardemaister wrote:


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
wrote:


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister  wrote:


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
wrote:



The word 'puja' either means 'preparing for purifying', or 'the

birth

(begining) of the purifying life' . That is its ACTUAL meaning.

OffWorld




Sorry Off, but I think that's a bit like claiming, for instance,
that 'purpose' is equivalent to 'poor pose'>


You need to check your sanskrit.
'Pu' is 'purifying'; cleansing.
'Ja' is 'born' or 'beginning'.

OffWorld



ROTFLMFFLOFFOLLOWMAOi!  ;D



That's it! I'm not going to bathe anymore, I'm going to Pu Ju! It's a  
scientific procedure, so I'm not worried.

[FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[cardemaister]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister  wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister  wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > 
> > > > The word 'puja' either means 'preparing for purifying', or 'the 
> > birth
> > > > (begining) of the purifying life' . That is its ACTUAL meaning.
> > > > 
> > > > OffWorld
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Sorry Off, but I think that's a bit like claiming, for instance,
> > > that 'purpose' is equivalent to 'poor pose'>
> > 
> > You need to check your sanskrit. 
> > 'Pu' is 'purifying'; cleansing.
> > 'Ja' is 'born' or 'beginning'.
> > 
> > OffWorld
> >
> 
> ROTFLMFFLOFFOLLOWMAOi!  ;D
>

Just occurred to me, 'purohitam' in 'agnim iile pu-ro-hit-am'
prolly means something like '(I) am hit by a purifying (pu)
raw (ro)'

[FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[cardemaister]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > The word 'puja' either means 'preparing for purifying', or 'the 
> birth
> > > (begining) of the purifying life' . That is its ACTUAL meaning.
> > > 
> > > OffWorld
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > Sorry Off, but I think that's a bit like claiming, for instance,
> > that 'purpose' is equivalent to 'poor pose'>
> 
> You need to check your sanskrit. 
> 'Pu' is 'purifying'; cleansing.
> 'Ja' is 'born' or 'beginning'.
> 
> OffWorld
>

ROTFLMFFLOFFOLLOWMAOi!  ;D

[FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Jason  wrote:
>
> > Hari Om Barry.  You just can't club TM and scientiology to gether.
> > TM is a scientific technique.
> > Scientiology is just mumbo jumbo cult.
> > Click below the see Barry's religion.
> > http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=L_XFMCgeI7c

Click below to see Jason's:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/206110

I rest my case.

> --- TurquoiseB  wrote:
> Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other
elements of TM practice
> Date: Tuesday, January 27, 2009, 12:36 AM
> 
> 
> As far as I can tell, the bottom line of this
> "Is TM a religion" argument is that people are
> just continuing to think WHAT THEY WERE 
> TOLD TO THINK.
> 
> If Maharishi had followed some of his early
> followers' advice and set up the teaching of 
> TM as a religion, THESE SAME PEOPLE would be
> appearing as witnesses in the Scientology- like
> court cases that would have been brought to
> prove that the teaching of TM was *not* a 
> religion.
> 
> And THESE SAME PEOPLE would be swearing under
> oath that it WAS a religion.
> 
> Why don't we stop these silly debates and just
> call *both* Scientology and the TMO what they
> are -- businesses?
> 
> -  "amritasyaputra"  wrote:
> >
> > No, it is not religious.
> 
>  
>  
>

[FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[Jason]

 

   Hari Om Barry.  You just can't club TM and scientiology to gether.
   TM is a scientific technique.
   Scientiology is just mumbo jumbo cult.
   Click below the see Barry's religion.
   http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=L_XFMCgeI7c
 

--- TurquoiseB  wrote:
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM 
practice
Date: Tuesday, January 27, 2009, 12:36 AM


As far as I can tell, the bottom line of this
"Is TM a religion" argument is that people are
just continuing to think WHAT THEY WERE 
TOLD TO THINK.

If Maharishi had followed some of his early
followers' advice and set up the teaching of 
TM as a religion, THESE SAME PEOPLE would be
appearing as witnesses in the Scientology- like
court cases that would have been brought to
prove that the teaching of TM was *not* a 
religion.

And THESE SAME PEOPLE would be swearing under
oath that it WAS a religion.

Why don't we stop these silly debates and just
call *both* Scientology and the TMO what they
are -- businesses?

-  "amritasyaputra"  wrote:
>
> No, it is not religious.

 
 


  

[FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "amritasyaputra"
 wrote:
>
> No, it is not religious.

As far as I can tell, the bottom line of this
"Is TM a religion" argument is that people are
just continuing to think WHAT THEY WERE 
TOLD TO THINK.

If Maharishi had followed some of his early
followers' advice and set up the teaching of 
TM as a religion, THESE SAME PEOPLE would be
appearing as witnesses in the Scientology-like
court cases that would have been brought to
prove that the teaching of TM was *not* a 
religion.

And THESE SAME PEOPLE would be swearing under
oath that it WAS a religion.

Why don't we stop these silly debates and just
call *both* Scientology and the TMO what they
are -- businesses?

[FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[amritasyaputra]

So the so-called "Theory of Everything" in Physics is a religious 
theory, hmm?

Well, continue to worry your ...

You and your fiends here seem to see religion everywhere! Actually, 
also nice.

With best wishes

Shaas



--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity  
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "amritasyaputra"
>  wrote:
> >
> > Thanks, that's what I am saying too:  > obviously not a religion>
> 
> 
> > 
> > THerefore, we can close that boring discussion. Just practise it 
and 
> > don't bother about all those theories.
> 
> Well, I worry my pretty little head about these theories.  
> > 
> > And Veda, too, is not a religion.
> > 
> > Maybe Hinduism is but Veda is not. Veda is Sanatan Dharm, the 
eternal 
> > way of life. NO religion. 
> > 
> > It is a knowledge pertaining to the whole so certainly including 
> > religion as any other knowledge.
> > 
> > Our root is in Veda, not Hinduism
> > 
> > Shaas
> 
> I guess you told us! "The eternal way of life" is a religious 
concept.
>  Religion deals with ultimate questions.  I get the feeling that to
> call TM or the Vedas religion minimizes both in the TB's mind. You 
say
> Veda is more than religion, it is everything.  Well, to me, that is 
a
> religious concept.  Everything else must fit or be bent to fit the
> concepts of the Vedas.  Meditation is a technique of this religion. 
> Much like taking communion or going to confession is a technique of
> the Catholic. 
> 
> So Shaas, do you believe in hovering?  In Jyotish?  In doing the 
puja?
> In pulse diagnosis of illness?  That east facing homes are better 
than
> west facing homes?  How religious are you?
>

[FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ruthsimplicity  wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
> wrote:
> > [...]
> > > To say that the word `puja' means `worship' is like
> > > saying:
> > 
> > > "Avatar" means "a person's cartoon version on the
> > > internet.
> > 
> > On behalf of my avatar, I'd like to express my feelings of dismay.
> > 
> > 
> > Saijanai Kuhn
> >
> 
> 
> Too funny Lawson!  :)
>

Actually, people are starting to make a professional rep via their Second LIfe
avatars. Zero LInden, for instance, is better known as Zero Linden, than his 
real life
name, even though he's been a programmer longer than I have, and done some
significant projects under that persona.

Glitteratica Cookie got mention on the Daily Show because of her avatar's name,
not her job description, even though it was serious enough that she was invited
to testify in a Congressional hearing about virtual worlds.

Etc.

Lawson

[FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[enlightened_dawn11]

thank you for your contribution, shaas. always a pleasure to hear 
from someone with a sound mind. :)

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "amritasyaputra" 
 wrote:
>
> Thanks, that's what I am saying too:  obviously not a religion>
> 
> THerefore, we can close that boring discussion. Just practise it 
and 
> don't bother about all those theories.
> 
> And Veda, too, is not a religion.
> 
> Maybe Hinduism is but Veda is not. Veda is Sanatan Dharm, the 
eternal 
> way of life. NO religion. 
> 
> It is a knowledge pertaining to the whole so certainly including 
> religion as any other knowledge.
> 
> Our root is in Veda, not Hinduism
> 
> Shaas
> 
> 
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "yifuxero"  wrote:
> >
> > ---Category errors - below. TM is obviously not to be compared 
to 
> > Hollywood starts (apples and bananas).
> > By "TM" clarify - such as "TM in context of the puja and body of 
> > knowledge that goes along with it" since TM just by itself is 
> > obviously not a religion.  Not many people are saying it is. 
> (since - 
> > obviously per MMY's intention, one can extract TM from the 
> religious 
> > matrix and practice it as an athiest or as a technique 
independent 
> of 
> > one's religion.
> >  Yes, veneration of a "god" is religion; and in the braodest 
sense, 
> > one's Guru. The TM puja venerates Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva. 
Can't 
> > get any more religious than that!
> >  TM + puja + knowledge can be considered a "Dharmic" package 
within 
> > Hinduism.  Much of Christianity is dualist dogma based on 
> acceptance 
> > and belief; thus both are religious in nature but vastly 
different, 
> > like comparing rodents and elephants. (but both may have a 
common 
> > ancestor).
> >  You say practice and ideology are vastly different.  Very true. 
> > There's plenty of room under the umbrella topic of religion to 
> > incorporate vastly different ideologies and practices. We 
haven't 
> > even scratched the surface of the Pleidian religions!
> > 
> > You say TM is "leaving activity". Fine we can setup a flow chart 
as 
> > follows:
> > A. Religions:
> > a. Dharmic religions, or non-dualist approaches that have 
> > Enlightenment as the goal (Cf. the teachings of the Buddha).
> > b. Those dualist religions which bind one to form, ideas, dogmas 
> and 
> > practices in and of themselves; e.g. "accepting Jesus as one's 
> > Savior" for example (in the orthodox sense), is all about 
remission 
> > of "sins", not Enlightenment.
> >   
> > So regardless of the direction or intention of religion, the 
> > properties common to both are adequate to fit into the wide 
> umbrella 
> > as defined in wiki and various dictionaries.
> > 
> >  In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "amritasyaputra" 
> >  wrote:
> > >
> > > No, it is not religious.
> > > Veneration of a person or a Master is not a religious 
activity. 
> > > Unless, of course, you consider veneration of Hollywood stars 
as 
> > > religious.
> > > 
> > > Moreover, TM cannot be a religion if Christianity is 
considered 
> to 
> > be 
> > > one!!!
> > > 
> > > Although there might be some similarities, their practice and 
> > > ideology is completely different. They just cannot be in one 
> > > compartment.
> > > 
> > > Puja room is not a temple, it is a puja room.
> > >  is not religion, it es LEAVING of all activity.
> > > and all your other points are clearly serving your purpose - 
no 
> > clear 
> > > logic.
> > > 
> > > With best wishes
> > > 
> > > Shaas
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The late great Sanskrit translator and yogi Sir John 
Woodroffe  
> > > > probably had access to more insight to traditional Hindu 
> > religious  
> > > > practices AND the Christian religious practices of his 
British  
> > > > homeland than almost anyone since. He noted there really 
wasn't 
> a 
> > > huge  
> > > > difference between Hindu religious practices like the TM 
puja 
> and 
> > > TM  
> > > > and Roman Catholicism. One is the Cult of Shakti and Shakta, 
> the 
> > > other  
> > > > is a cult of the Virgin Mary and Jesus/the Father. In fact 
he 
> > > details  
> > > > their religious (not "scientific" or non-sectarian) sameness:
> > > > 
> > > > "amongst Christians, the Catholic Church, like Hinduism, has 
a 
> > > full  
> > > > and potent Sadhana in its sacraments
> > > > (Samskara), temple (Church), private worship (Puja, Upasana) 
> > with  
> > > > Upacara "bell, light and
> > > > incense" (Ghanta, Dipa, Dhupa), Images or Pratima (hence it 
has 
> > > been  
> > > > called idolatrous), devotional rites
> > > > such as Novenas and the like (Vrata), the 
threefold "Angelus" 
> at 
> > > morn,  
> > > > noon and evening (Samdhya),
> > > > rosary (Japa), the wearing of Kavacas (Scapulars, Medals, 
Agnus 
> > > Dei),  
> > > > pilgrimage (Tirtha), fasting,
> > > > abstinence and mortification (Tapas), monastic renunciation  
> > > > (Samnyasa), meditation (Dhyana), ending
> > > > in the uni

[FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[off_world_beings]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
>
> 
> On Jan 26, 2009, at 8:50 PM, off_world_beings wrote:
> 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On Jan 26, 2009, at 5:00 PM, off_world_beings wrote:
> > >
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Jan 25, 2009, at 10:40 PM, off_world_beings wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> The word 'puja' either means 'preparing for purifying', 
or 'the
> > > >>> birth (begining) of the purifying life' . That is its ACTUAL
> > > > meaning.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> You might want to at least look at a Sanskrit dictionary 
next  
> > time
> > > >> OffWorld.>
> > > >
> > > > I did. And my translation is accurate. Yours is superficial 
and
> > > > incomplete, which is typical for you.
> > >
> > >
> > > Well, by all means, please post your translation and list it's  
> > source>>
> >
> > Too easy:
> >
> > "Pu"
> > cleaning , purifying.
> > http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/monier/
> >
> > "Ja"
> > born or descended from , produced or caused by , born or produced.
> > http://webapps.uni-koeln.de/cgi-bin/tamil/recherche
> >
> Wow. That sounds VERY religious to me>>

That's because your are religiously brainwashed and you see religion 
in something that has no religion in it whatsoever.

My defnition is correct, and you are working with translations from 
19th century out of date dictionaries.
What a joke .

OffWorld

[FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[ruthsimplicity]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "amritasyaputra"
 wrote:
>
> Thanks, that's what I am saying too:  obviously not a religion>


> 
> THerefore, we can close that boring discussion. Just practise it and 
> don't bother about all those theories.

Well, I worry my pretty little head about these theories.  
> 
> And Veda, too, is not a religion.
> 
> Maybe Hinduism is but Veda is not. Veda is Sanatan Dharm, the eternal 
> way of life. NO religion. 
> 
> It is a knowledge pertaining to the whole so certainly including 
> religion as any other knowledge.
> 
> Our root is in Veda, not Hinduism
> 
> Shaas

I guess you told us! "The eternal way of life" is a religious concept.
 Religion deals with ultimate questions.  I get the feeling that to
call TM or the Vedas religion minimizes both in the TB's mind. You say
Veda is more than religion, it is everything.  Well, to me, that is a
religious concept.  Everything else must fit or be bent to fit the
concepts of the Vedas.  Meditation is a technique of this religion. 
Much like taking communion or going to confession is a technique of
the Catholic. 

So Shaas, do you believe in hovering?  In Jyotish?  In doing the puja?
In pulse diagnosis of illness?  That east facing homes are better than
west facing homes?  How religious are you?


  

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[Samadhi Is Much Closer Than You Think -- Really! -- It's A No-Brainer. Who'd've Thunk It?]

I agree, speaking in modernese was surely his intent, as once the vijanamaya
kosa is more developed than or excelled to dominate the lower kosas,
only escalated levels of universality, love and scientific processes remain
prominent though every thought, word and deed.

This and the fact that he was taking the TM mission to a large part of the
world which is infused with Abahamic religiosity -- a spectrum of
religion that has been responsible for a huge volume of the world's bigoted
sectarian predation for thousands of years -- a more mature, more adult
disposition, such as "scientific", became imperative to capture the frame of
mind of new prospects to reach inside their inner adult to deal with this
sublime process in the manner appropriate for the homo sapien species
instead of the baboonery associated with Abrahamic religious history.  Oooga
Moooga!

Who was Abraham?
*Find Out Here*:
http://Abraham-WhoWasHe.resolve.at/

On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 2:34 PM, BillyG.  wrote:

>  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> >
> > The late great Sanskrit translator and yogi Sir John Woodroffe
> > probably had access to more insight to traditional Hindu religious
> > practices AND the Christian religious practices of his British
> > homeland than almost anyone since. He noted there really wasn't a huge
> > difference between Hindu religious practices like the TM puja and TM
> > and Roman Catholicism. One is the Cult of Shakti and Shakta, the other
> > is a cult of the Virgin Mary and Jesus/the Father. In fact he details
> > their religious (not "scientific" or non-sectarian) sameness:
> >
> > "amongst Christians, the Catholic Church, like Hinduism, has a full
> > and potent Sadhana in its sacraments
> > (Samskara), temple (Church), private worship (Puja, Upasana) with
> > Upacara "bell, light and
> > incense" (Ghanta, Dipa, Dhupa), Images or Pratima (hence it has been
> > called idolatrous), devotional rites
> > such as Novenas and the like (Vrata), the threefold "Angelus" at morn,
> > noon and evening (Samdhya),
> > rosary (Japa), the wearing of Kavacas (Scapulars, Medals, Agnus Dei),
> > pilgrimage (Tirtha), fasting,
> > abstinence and mortification (Tapas), monastic renunciation
> > (Samnyasa), meditation (Dhyana), ending
> > in the union of mystical theology (Samadhi) and so forth. There are
> > other smaller details such for
> > instance as Shanti-abhisheka (Asperges) into which I need not enter
> > here. I may, however, mention the
> > Spiritual Director who occupies the place of the Guru; the worship
> > (Hyperdulia) of the Virgin-Mother
> > which made Svami Vivekananda call the Italian Catholics, Shaktas; and
> > the use of wine (Madya) and
> > bread (corresponding to Mudra) in the Eucharist or Communion Service.
> > Whilst, however, the Blessed
> > Virgin evokes devotion as warm as that which is here paid to Devi, she
> > is not Devi for she is not God but
> > a creature selected as the vehicle of His incarnation (Avatara). In
> > the Eucharist the bread and wine are
> > the body and blood of Christ appearing under the form or "accidents"
> > of those material substances; so
> > also Tara is Dravamayi, that is, the "Saviour in liquid form".
> > (Mahanirvana Tantra xi. 105-107.) In the
> > Catholic Church (though the early practice was otherwise) the laity no
> > longer take wine but bread only,
> > the officiating priest consuming both. Whilst however the outward
> > forms in this case are similar, the
> > inner meaning is different. Those however who contend that eating and
> > drinking are inconsistent with
> > the "dignity" of worship may be reminded of Tertullian's saying that
> > Christ instituted His great
> > sacrament at a meal. These notions are those of the dualist with all
> > his distinctions. For the Advaitin
> > every function and act may be made a Yajña. Agape or "Love Feasts," a
> > kind of Cakra, were held in
> > early times, and discontinued as orthodox practice, on account of
> > abuses to which they led; though they
> > are said still to exist in some of the smaller Christian sects of the
> > day. There are other points of ritual
> > which are peculiar to the Tantra Shastra and of which there is no
> > counterpart in the Catholic ritual such
> > as Nyasa and Yantra. Mantra exists in the form of prayer and as
> > formulae of consecration, but otherwise
> > the subject is conceived of differently here. There are certain
> > gestures (Mudra) made in the ritual, as
> > when consecrating, blessing, and so forth, but they are not so
> > numerous or prominent as they are here. I
> > may some day more fully develop these interesting analogies, but what
> > I have said is for the present
> > sufficient to establish the numerous similarities which exist between
> > the Catholic and Indian Tantrik
> > ritual. Because of these facts the "reformed" Christian sects have
> > charged the Catholic Church with
> > "Paganism". It is in fact the inheritor of ve

[FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[amritasyaputra]

Thanks, that's what I am saying too: 

THerefore, we can close that boring discussion. Just practise it and 
don't bother about all those theories.

And Veda, too, is not a religion.

Maybe Hinduism is but Veda is not. Veda is Sanatan Dharm, the eternal 
way of life. NO religion. 

It is a knowledge pertaining to the whole so certainly including 
religion as any other knowledge.

Our root is in Veda, not Hinduism

Shaas


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "yifuxero"  wrote:
>
> ---Category errors - below. TM is obviously not to be compared to 
> Hollywood starts (apples and bananas).
> By "TM" clarify - such as "TM in context of the puja and body of 
> knowledge that goes along with it" since TM just by itself is 
> obviously not a religion.  Not many people are saying it is. 
(since - 
> obviously per MMY's intention, one can extract TM from the 
religious 
> matrix and practice it as an athiest or as a technique independent 
of 
> one's religion.
>  Yes, veneration of a "god" is religion; and in the braodest sense, 
> one's Guru. The TM puja venerates Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva. Can't 
> get any more religious than that!
>  TM + puja + knowledge can be considered a "Dharmic" package within 
> Hinduism.  Much of Christianity is dualist dogma based on 
acceptance 
> and belief; thus both are religious in nature but vastly different, 
> like comparing rodents and elephants. (but both may have a common 
> ancestor).
>  You say practice and ideology are vastly different.  Very true. 
> There's plenty of room under the umbrella topic of religion to 
> incorporate vastly different ideologies and practices. We haven't 
> even scratched the surface of the Pleidian religions!
> 
> You say TM is "leaving activity". Fine we can setup a flow chart as 
> follows:
> A. Religions:
> a. Dharmic religions, or non-dualist approaches that have 
> Enlightenment as the goal (Cf. the teachings of the Buddha).
> b. Those dualist religions which bind one to form, ideas, dogmas 
and 
> practices in and of themselves; e.g. "accepting Jesus as one's 
> Savior" for example (in the orthodox sense), is all about remission 
> of "sins", not Enlightenment.
>   
> So regardless of the direction or intention of religion, the 
> properties common to both are adequate to fit into the wide 
umbrella 
> as defined in wiki and various dictionaries.
> 
>  In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "amritasyaputra" 
>  wrote:
> >
> > No, it is not religious.
> > Veneration of a person or a Master is not a religious activity. 
> > Unless, of course, you consider veneration of Hollywood stars as 
> > religious.
> > 
> > Moreover, TM cannot be a religion if Christianity is considered 
to 
> be 
> > one!!!
> > 
> > Although there might be some similarities, their practice and 
> > ideology is completely different. They just cannot be in one 
> > compartment.
> > 
> > Puja room is not a temple, it is a puja room.
> >  is not religion, it es LEAVING of all activity.
> > and all your other points are clearly serving your purpose - no 
> clear 
> > logic.
> > 
> > With best wishes
> > 
> > Shaas
> > 
> > 
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> > >
> > > The late great Sanskrit translator and yogi Sir John Woodroffe  
> > > probably had access to more insight to traditional Hindu 
> religious  
> > > practices AND the Christian religious practices of his British  
> > > homeland than almost anyone since. He noted there really wasn't 
a 
> > huge  
> > > difference between Hindu religious practices like the TM puja 
and 
> > TM  
> > > and Roman Catholicism. One is the Cult of Shakti and Shakta, 
the 
> > other  
> > > is a cult of the Virgin Mary and Jesus/the Father. In fact he 
> > details  
> > > their religious (not "scientific" or non-sectarian) sameness:
> > > 
> > > "amongst Christians, the Catholic Church, like Hinduism, has a 
> > full  
> > > and potent Sadhana in its sacraments
> > > (Samskara), temple (Church), private worship (Puja, Upasana) 
> with  
> > > Upacara "bell, light and
> > > incense" (Ghanta, Dipa, Dhupa), Images or Pratima (hence it has 
> > been  
> > > called idolatrous), devotional rites
> > > such as Novenas and the like (Vrata), the threefold "Angelus" 
at 
> > morn,  
> > > noon and evening (Samdhya),
> > > rosary (Japa), the wearing of Kavacas (Scapulars, Medals, Agnus 
> > Dei),  
> > > pilgrimage (Tirtha), fasting,
> > > abstinence and mortification (Tapas), monastic renunciation  
> > > (Samnyasa), meditation (Dhyana), ending
> > > in the union of mystical theology (Samadhi) and so forth. There 
> > are  
> > > other smaller details such for
> > > instance as Shanti-abhisheka (Asperges) into which I need not 
> > enter  
> > > here. I may, however, mention the
> > > Spiritual Director who occupies the place of the Guru; the 
> worship  
> > > (Hyperdulia) of the Virgin-Mother
> > > which made Svami Vivekananda call the Italian Catholics, 
Shaktas; 
> > and  
> > > the use of wine (Madya) and
> > > bread (co

[FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[ruthsimplicity]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
wrote:
> [...]
> > To say that the word `puja' means `worship' is like
> > saying:
> 
> > "Avatar" means "a person's cartoon version on the
> > internet.
> 
> On behalf of my avatar, I'd like to express my feelings of dismay.
> 
> 
> Saijanai Kuhn
>


Too funny Lawson!  :)

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[Vaj]

On Jan 26, 2009, at 8:50 PM, off_world_beings wrote:


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
>
>
> On Jan 26, 2009, at 5:00 PM, off_world_beings wrote:
>
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> On Jan 25, 2009, at 10:40 PM, off_world_beings wrote:
> >>
> >>> The word 'puja' either means 'preparing for purifying', or 'the
> >>> birth (begining) of the purifying life' . That is its ACTUAL
> > meaning.
> >>
> >>
> >> You might want to at least look at a Sanskrit dictionary next  
time

> >> OffWorld.>
> >
> > I did. And my translation is accurate. Yours is superficial and
> > incomplete, which is typical for you.
>
>
> Well, by all means, please post your translation and list it's  
source>>


Too easy:

"Pu"
cleaning , purifying.
http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/monier/

"Ja"
born or descended from , produced or caused by , born or produced.
http://webapps.uni-koeln.de/cgi-bin/tamil/recherche

Wow. That sounds VERY religious to me. Thanks for making my point Off!  
Good job!


BTW, you might want to learn a bit more about Sanskrit roots before  
making such wild jumps!

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[Vaj]

On Jan 26, 2009, at 8:41 PM, amritasyaputra wrote:


No, it is not religious.
Veneration of a person or a Master is not a religious activity.


religion |riˈlijən|
noun
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a  
personal God or god




Unless, of course, you consider veneration of Hollywood stars as
religious.


It certainly has a religious aspect, but so does all hero worship. I'd  
call "star worship", hero worship. Hero worship is an aspect of  
religious worship.



Moreover, TM cannot be a religion if Christianity is considered to be
one!!!


And your evidence for this claim is...???


Although there might be some similarities, their practice and
ideology is completely different. They just cannot be in one
compartment.


Oh, ok. Since you said so!

Not very convincing. You're sharing more about your attachment to  
ideas and beliefs than you are presenting actual facts.





Puja room is not a temple, it is a puja room.


A mere matter of definition. When all you have is a simple room, that  
can be a temple of initiation. This could be dissected further. There  
are such things as temporary or even moveable temples.



 is not religion, it es LEAVING of all activity.
and all your other points are clearly serving your purpose - no clear
logic.


And the leaving of all (mundane) activity is a religious or cultic  
one. Other wise you'd not have any restriction.

[FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[yifuxero]

---Category errors - below. TM is obviously not to be compared to 
Hollywood starts (apples and bananas).
By "TM" clarify - such as "TM in context of the puja and body of 
knowledge that goes along with it" since TM just by itself is 
obviously not a religion.  Not many people are saying it is. (since - 
obviously per MMY's intention, one can extract TM from the religious 
matrix and practice it as an athiest or as a technique independent of 
one's religion.
 Yes, veneration of a "god" is religion; and in the braodest sense, 
one's Guru. The TM puja venerates Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva. Can't 
get any more religious than that!
 TM + puja + knowledge can be considered a "Dharmic" package within 
Hinduism.  Much of Christianity is dualist dogma based on acceptance 
and belief; thus both are religious in nature but vastly different, 
like comparing rodents and elephants. (but both may have a common 
ancestor).
 You say practice and ideology are vastly different.  Very true. 
There's plenty of room under the umbrella topic of religion to 
incorporate vastly different ideologies and practices. We haven't 
even scratched the surface of the Pleidian religions!

You say TM is "leaving activity". Fine we can setup a flow chart as 
follows:
A. Religions:
a. Dharmic religions, or non-dualist approaches that have 
Enlightenment as the goal (Cf. the teachings of the Buddha).
b. Those dualist religions which bind one to form, ideas, dogmas and 
practices in and of themselves; e.g. "accepting Jesus as one's 
Savior" for example (in the orthodox sense), is all about remission 
of "sins", not Enlightenment.
  
So regardless of the direction or intention of religion, the 
properties common to both are adequate to fit into the wide umbrella 
as defined in wiki and various dictionaries.

 In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "amritasyaputra" 
 wrote:
>
> No, it is not religious.
> Veneration of a person or a Master is not a religious activity. 
> Unless, of course, you consider veneration of Hollywood stars as 
> religious.
> 
> Moreover, TM cannot be a religion if Christianity is considered to 
be 
> one!!!
> 
> Although there might be some similarities, their practice and 
> ideology is completely different. They just cannot be in one 
> compartment.
> 
> Puja room is not a temple, it is a puja room.
>  is not religion, it es LEAVING of all activity.
> and all your other points are clearly serving your purpose - no 
clear 
> logic.
> 
> With best wishes
> 
> Shaas
> 
> 
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> >
> > The late great Sanskrit translator and yogi Sir John Woodroffe  
> > probably had access to more insight to traditional Hindu 
religious  
> > practices AND the Christian religious practices of his British  
> > homeland than almost anyone since. He noted there really wasn't a 
> huge  
> > difference between Hindu religious practices like the TM puja and 
> TM  
> > and Roman Catholicism. One is the Cult of Shakti and Shakta, the 
> other  
> > is a cult of the Virgin Mary and Jesus/the Father. In fact he 
> details  
> > their religious (not "scientific" or non-sectarian) sameness:
> > 
> > "amongst Christians, the Catholic Church, like Hinduism, has a 
> full  
> > and potent Sadhana in its sacraments
> > (Samskara), temple (Church), private worship (Puja, Upasana) 
with  
> > Upacara "bell, light and
> > incense" (Ghanta, Dipa, Dhupa), Images or Pratima (hence it has 
> been  
> > called idolatrous), devotional rites
> > such as Novenas and the like (Vrata), the threefold "Angelus" at 
> morn,  
> > noon and evening (Samdhya),
> > rosary (Japa), the wearing of Kavacas (Scapulars, Medals, Agnus 
> Dei),  
> > pilgrimage (Tirtha), fasting,
> > abstinence and mortification (Tapas), monastic renunciation  
> > (Samnyasa), meditation (Dhyana), ending
> > in the union of mystical theology (Samadhi) and so forth. There 
> are  
> > other smaller details such for
> > instance as Shanti-abhisheka (Asperges) into which I need not 
> enter  
> > here. I may, however, mention the
> > Spiritual Director who occupies the place of the Guru; the 
worship  
> > (Hyperdulia) of the Virgin-Mother
> > which made Svami Vivekananda call the Italian Catholics, Shaktas; 
> and  
> > the use of wine (Madya) and
> > bread (corresponding to Mudra) in the Eucharist or Communion 
> Service.  
> > Whilst, however, the Blessed
> > Virgin evokes devotion as warm as that which is here paid to 
Devi, 
> she  
> > is not Devi for she is not God but
> > a creature selected as the vehicle of His incarnation (Avatara). 
> In  
> > the Eucharist the bread and wine are
> > the body and blood of Christ appearing under the form 
> or "accidents"  
> > of those material substances; so
> > also Tara is Dravamayi, that is, the "Saviour in liquid form".  
> > (Mahanirvana Tantra xi. 105-107.) In the
> > Catholic Church (though the early practice was otherwise) the 
laity 
> no  
> > longer take wine but bread only,
> > the officiating priest co

[FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[off_world_beings]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings  
wrote:
> [...]
> > To say that the word `puja' means `worship' is like
> > saying:
> 
> > "Avatar" means "a person's cartoon version on the
> > internet.
> 
> On behalf of my avatar, I'd like to express my feelings of dismay.>>


Oh just go back to your SecondLife world will ya !
:-)

OffWorld(no pun intended in my name)


> 
> 
> Saijanai Kuhn
>

[FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings  wrote:
[...]
> To say that the word `puja' means `worship' is like
> saying:

> "Avatar" means "a person's cartoon version on the
> internet.

On behalf of my avatar, I'd like to express my feelings of dismay.


Saijanai Kuhn

[FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[off_world_beings]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 , Vaj  wrote:
>
>
> On Jan 26, 2009, at 5:00 PM, off_world_beings wrote:
>
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 , Vaj  wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> On Jan 25, 2009, at 10:40 PM, off_world_beings wrote:
> >>
> >>> The word 'puja' either means 'preparing for purifying', or 'the
> >>> birth (begining) of the purifying life' . That is its ACTUAL
> > meaning.
> >>
> >>
> >> You might want to at least look at a Sanskrit dictionary next time
> >> OffWorld.>
> >
> > I did. And my translation is accurate. Yours is superficial and
> > incomplete, which is typical for you.
>
>
> Well, by all means, please post your translation and list it's
source>>

Too easy:

"Pu"
cleaning , purifying.
http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/monier/


"Ja"
born or descended from , produced or caused by , born or produced.
http://webapps.uni-koeln.de/cgi-bin/tamil/recherche


My translation is accurate. The others are old mistranslations.

To say that the word `puja' means `worship' is like
saying:

"Church" means "Christianity"
"Avatar" means "a person's cartoon version on the
internet.
or
"Yogi" means "old bearded guy with beads around his
neck".

It is childish, absurd, lacking in accuracy, and misinformed.

(and to you lot that say I got my version from the TMO, I did not, and
that is not their translation as far as I know. You are the ones who are
being like sheep, not me. You are brainwashed.)

OffWorld

[FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[amritasyaputra]

No, it is not religious.
Veneration of a person or a Master is not a religious activity. 
Unless, of course, you consider veneration of Hollywood stars as 
religious.

Moreover, TM cannot be a religion if Christianity is considered to be 
one!!!

Although there might be some similarities, their practice and 
ideology is completely different. They just cannot be in one 
compartment.

Puja room is not a temple, it is a puja room.
 is not religion, it es LEAVING of all activity.
and all your other points are clearly serving your purpose - no clear 
logic.

With best wishes

Shaas


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
>
> The late great Sanskrit translator and yogi Sir John Woodroffe  
> probably had access to more insight to traditional Hindu religious  
> practices AND the Christian religious practices of his British  
> homeland than almost anyone since. He noted there really wasn't a 
huge  
> difference between Hindu religious practices like the TM puja and 
TM  
> and Roman Catholicism. One is the Cult of Shakti and Shakta, the 
other  
> is a cult of the Virgin Mary and Jesus/the Father. In fact he 
details  
> their religious (not "scientific" or non-sectarian) sameness:
> 
> "amongst Christians, the Catholic Church, like Hinduism, has a 
full  
> and potent Sadhana in its sacraments
> (Samskara), temple (Church), private worship (Puja, Upasana) with  
> Upacara "bell, light and
> incense" (Ghanta, Dipa, Dhupa), Images or Pratima (hence it has 
been  
> called idolatrous), devotional rites
> such as Novenas and the like (Vrata), the threefold "Angelus" at 
morn,  
> noon and evening (Samdhya),
> rosary (Japa), the wearing of Kavacas (Scapulars, Medals, Agnus 
Dei),  
> pilgrimage (Tirtha), fasting,
> abstinence and mortification (Tapas), monastic renunciation  
> (Samnyasa), meditation (Dhyana), ending
> in the union of mystical theology (Samadhi) and so forth. There 
are  
> other smaller details such for
> instance as Shanti-abhisheka (Asperges) into which I need not 
enter  
> here. I may, however, mention the
> Spiritual Director who occupies the place of the Guru; the worship  
> (Hyperdulia) of the Virgin-Mother
> which made Svami Vivekananda call the Italian Catholics, Shaktas; 
and  
> the use of wine (Madya) and
> bread (corresponding to Mudra) in the Eucharist or Communion 
Service.  
> Whilst, however, the Blessed
> Virgin evokes devotion as warm as that which is here paid to Devi, 
she  
> is not Devi for she is not God but
> a creature selected as the vehicle of His incarnation (Avatara). 
In  
> the Eucharist the bread and wine are
> the body and blood of Christ appearing under the form 
or "accidents"  
> of those material substances; so
> also Tara is Dravamayi, that is, the "Saviour in liquid form".  
> (Mahanirvana Tantra xi. 105-107.) In the
> Catholic Church (though the early practice was otherwise) the laity 
no  
> longer take wine but bread only,
> the officiating priest consuming both. Whilst however the outward  
> forms in this case are similar, the
> inner meaning is different. Those however who contend that eating 
and  
> drinking are inconsistent with
> the "dignity" of worship may be reminded of Tertullian's saying 
that  
> Christ instituted His great
> sacrament at a meal. These notions are those of the dualist with 
all  
> his distinctions. For the Advaitin
> every function and act may be made a Yajña. Agape or "Love Feasts," 
a  
> kind of Cakra, were held in
> early times, and discontinued as orthodox practice, on account of  
> abuses to which they led; though they
> are said still to exist in some of the smaller Christian sects of 
the  
> day. There are other points of ritual
> which are peculiar to the Tantra Shastra and of which there is no  
> counterpart in the Catholic ritual such
> as Nyasa and Yantra. Mantra exists in the form of prayer and as  
> formulae of consecration, but otherwise
> the subject is conceived of differently here. There are certain  
> gestures (Mudra) made in the ritual, as
> when consecrating, blessing, and so forth, but they are not so  
> numerous or prominent as they are here. I
> may some day more fully develop these interesting analogies, but 
what  
> I have said is for the present
> sufficient to establish the numerous similarities which exist 
between  
> the Catholic and Indian Tantrik
> ritual. Because of these facts the "reformed" Christian sects have  
> charged the Catholic Church with
> "Paganism". It is in fact the inheritor of very ancient practices 
but  
> is not necessarily the worse for that.
> The Hindu finds his Sadhana in the Tantras of the Agama in forms 
which  
> his race has evolved. In the
> abstract there is no reason why his race should not modify these 
forms  
> of Sadhana or evolve new ones.
> But the point is that it must have some form of Sadhana. Any system 
to  
> be fruitful must experiment to
> gain experience. It is because of its powerful sacraments and  
> disciplines that in the

[FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[Paul Mason]

A useful online Sanskrit dictionary resource is at:-
http://spokensanskrit.de/

For the word 'puja' or 'puujaa' the following link is preset:-
http://spokensanskrit.de/index.php?
script=HK&tinput=puujaa&country_ID=&trans=Translate&direction=AU




--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
>
> 
> On Jan 25, 2009, at 10:40 PM, off_world_beings wrote:
> 
> > The word 'puja' either means 'preparing for purifying', or 'the  
> > birth (begining) of the purifying life' . That is its ACTUAL 
meaning.
> 
> 
> You might want to at least look at a Sanskrit dictionary next time  
> OffWorld. Just because the movement you're involved with 
disseminates  
> misinformation to it's adherents and many of them actually believe  
> what they're told, it doesn't typically work that way in the real 
world:
> 
> 1
> pUjA
> f. honour , worship , respect , reverence , veneration , homage to  
> superiors or adoration of the gods Gr2S. Mn. MBh. &c.
> 
> 
> BTW, that's  the complete Monier-Wiliams citation.
> 
> Wow, that does sound scientific! :-)))
>

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[Vaj]

On Jan 26, 2009, at 5:00 PM, off_world_beings wrote:


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:



On Jan 25, 2009, at 10:40 PM, off_world_beings wrote:


The word 'puja' either means 'preparing for purifying', or 'the
birth (begining) of the purifying life' . That is its ACTUAL

meaning.



You might want to at least look at a Sanskrit dictionary next time
OffWorld.>


I did. And my translation is accurate. Yours is superficial and
incomplete, which is typical for you.



Well, by all means, please post your translation and list it's source  
Dear OffWorld!


Here, let me share first:

Capeller's Sanskrit dictionary is much more brief:

2   (cap)   pUjAf. honour, worship, respect.

[FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[enlightened_dawn11]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "geezerfreak"  
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11  
wrote:
> >
> > monkeys aren't demons-- they're cute, lovable, furry monkeys, 
> > chattering away to their heart's content. chatter, chatter, 
chatter 
> > go the monkeys, about anything and everything, whether they know 
> > what they are chattering about or not. here, have a banana!
> > 
> 
> Fuck you "enlightened". Not!
>

[FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[off_world_beings]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister  wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > The word 'puja' either means 'preparing for purifying', or 'the 
birth
> > (begining) of the purifying life' . That is its ACTUAL meaning.
> > 
> > OffWorld
> > 
> > 
> 
> Sorry Off, but I think that's a bit like claiming, for instance,
> that 'purpose' is equivalent to 'poor pose'>

You need to check your sanskrit. 
'Pu' is 'purifying'; cleansing.
'Ja' is 'born' or 'beginning'.

OffWorld

[FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[off_world_beings]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
>
> 
> On Jan 25, 2009, at 10:40 PM, off_world_beings wrote:
> 
> > The word 'puja' either means 'preparing for purifying', or 'the  
> > birth (begining) of the purifying life' . That is its ACTUAL 
meaning.
> 
> 
> You might want to at least look at a Sanskrit dictionary next time  
> OffWorld.>

I did. And my translation is accurate. Yours is superficial and 
incomplete, which is typical for you.

OffWorld


Just because the movement you're involved with disseminates  
> misinformation to it's adherents and many of them actually believe  
> what they're told, it doesn't typically work that way in the real 
world:
> 
> 1
> pUjA
> f. honour , worship , respect , reverence , veneration , homage to  
> superiors or adoration of the gods Gr2S. Mn. MBh. &c.
> 
> 
> BTW, that's  the complete Monier-Wiliams citation.
> 
> Wow, that does sound scientific! :-)))
>

[FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[cardemaister]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, off_world_beings 
wrote:
>
> 
> The word 'puja' either means 'preparing for purifying', or 'the birth
> (begining) of the purifying life' . That is its ACTUAL meaning.
> 
> OffWorld
> 
> 

Sorry Off, but I think that's a bit like claiming, for instance,
that 'purpose' is equivalent to 'poor pose', or -- Lawd have
Mercy! -- 'pure pose'...  ; )

But I admit I might be all "wronk" (as Simon Cowell might
comment?).

[FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[Duveyoung]

Indonesian Muslims banned from practicing yoga
   [RSS] 
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  ShareThis
NINIEK KARMINI
  |  January 26, 2009




JAKARTA, Indonesia — Indonesia's top Islamic body banned Muslims
from practicing yoga that contains Hindu rituals like chanting, the
chairman of the group said Monday, citing concerns it would corrupt
their faith.

Cleric Ma'ruf Amin said the Ulema Council issued the ruling following
weekend talks attended by hundreds of theological experts in Padang
Panjang, a village in West Sumatra province. Though not legally binding,
most devout Muslims will likely adhere to it because they consider
ignoring a religious decree sinful.

The ban, which follows a similar edict in neighboring Malaysia, was
passed after investigators visited gyms and private yoga classes across
the country to see what effect rituals like chanting mantras might have
on Muslims.

Clerics determined that it could weaken their faith, but yoga
practitioners and some scholars sharply disagreed Monday.

"They shouldn't be worrying about this," Jamilah Konny Fransiska, a yoga
teacher on the northern island of Batam, said of the Islamic body. She
said she knew very few people who incorporated Hindu elements with yoga.

"They should be focusing strictly on religious matters," she said.

Amin said those who perform the ancient Indian exercise without Hindu
rituals will not be affected by the ban.

Indonesia is a secular country of 235 million people, 90 percent of whom
are Muslim. Though most practice a moderate form of the faith, a vocal
extremist fringe has gained strength, at times even influencing
government policy.

In recent years, yoga _ a blend of physical and mental exercises aimed
at integrating mind, body and spirit _ has been increasingly practiced
in gyms and dedicated centers around the world.

In the United States, where it has become so popular that many public
schools began offering it in gym classes, yoga has also come under fire.

Some Christian fundamentalists and even secular parents have argued that
yoga's Hindu roots conflict with Christian teachings and that using it
in school might violate the separation of church and state.

Egypt's highest theological body also banned yoga for Muslims in 2004.

Indonesia's Ulema Council _ which wrapped up its annual meeting for the
issuing of fatwas late Sunday _ decided to investigate the need for a
yoga ban after Malaysia's top Islamic body issued its fatwa late last
year.

[FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[enlightened_dawn11]

another monkey king! what are you -sure- of about me, mr. B? 
anything? you have guessed at many elements of my life, and persist 
in making up stories which run contrary to my stated experience. 
chatter, chatter, chatter goes the monkey king, hoping to find a 
tree to remain in. cute restless monkey. 

free bananas for life for you! maybe i start calling you my little 
chiquita...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
> >
> > On Jan 25, 2009, at 7:36 PM, geezerfreak wrote:
> > >
> > > Very enlightened thinking here...demonize and minimize 
> > > those whose opinions differ from yours.
> > 
> > Not to mention another huge non sequitur. Nothing to 
> > contribute to the religious vs. puja-as-scientific-
> > procedure debate. Honestly it's difficult for me to 
> > imagine anyone but the most ardent of TB's still  
> > holding onto such a belief.
> 
> I can imagine something stranger.
> 
> Imagine that the person spouting all this TB stuff 
> *never learned TM*, and is merely *pretending* to
> be a TM TB out of loneliness and a desperate need 
> for attention, just as she did on any number of
> Personals forums, by pretending to be whatever got 
> her the most attention there. She can't discuss
> the puja because she's never seen one.
> 
> This *is* the person, after all, who can't tell us
> when and where she was taught TM and the TM-siddhis
> she claims to practice, and who, after all the 30
> years of her claimed personal experience with TM and
> the TMO continues to call Maharishi "the Maharishi."
> 
> How many people does it take to prove that a 
> blonde is too dumb to change a light bulb?
> 
> Only one, if she's a blonde and keeps trying to
> change the light bulb herself, and in public.
>

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[Vaj]

On Jan 25, 2009, at 11:49 PM, geezerfreak wrote:

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11  
 wrote:


monkeys aren't demons-- they're cute, lovable, furry monkeys,
chattering away to their heart's content. chatter, chatter, chatter
go the monkeys, about anything and everything, whether they know
what they are chattering about or not. here, have a banana!



Fuck you "enlightened". Not!



It's bad to make fun of people in Blonde Consciousness. You may never  
have fun again, after all Blo-Con's have more fun!

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[Vaj]

On Jan 25, 2009, at 10:40 PM, off_world_beings wrote:

The word 'puja' either means 'preparing for purifying', or 'the  
birth (begining) of the purifying life' . That is its ACTUAL meaning.



You might want to at least look at a Sanskrit dictionary next time  
OffWorld. Just because the movement you're involved with disseminates  
misinformation to it's adherents and many of them actually believe  
what they're told, it doesn't typically work that way in the real world:


1
pUjA
f. honour , worship , respect , reverence , veneration , homage to  
superiors or adoration of the gods Gr2S. Mn. MBh. &c.



BTW, that's  the complete Monier-Wiliams citation.

Wow, that does sound scientific! :-)))

[FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj  wrote:
>
> On Jan 25, 2009, at 7:36 PM, geezerfreak wrote:
> >
> > Very enlightened thinking here...demonize and minimize 
> > those whose opinions differ from yours.
> 
> Not to mention another huge non sequitur. Nothing to 
> contribute to the religious vs. puja-as-scientific-
> procedure debate. Honestly it's difficult for me to 
> imagine anyone but the most ardent of TB's still  
> holding onto such a belief.

I can imagine something stranger.

Imagine that the person spouting all this TB stuff 
*never learned TM*, and is merely *pretending* to
be a TM TB out of loneliness and a desperate need 
for attention, just as she did on any number of
Personals forums, by pretending to be whatever got 
her the most attention there. She can't discuss
the puja because she's never seen one.

This *is* the person, after all, who can't tell us
when and where she was taught TM and the TM-siddhis
she claims to practice, and who, after all the 30
years of her claimed personal experience with TM and
the TMO continues to call Maharishi "the Maharishi."

How many people does it take to prove that a 
blonde is too dumb to change a light bulb?

Only one, if she's a blonde and keeps trying to
change the light bulb herself, and in public.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[Peter]

First, we have to feed all you fucking monkeys some bananas, let you finish 
fucking, and then we'll get down to which of you is enlightened or not. Vaj 
will read each of you a Zen koan. You must immediately write the answer with 
your shit. Off world we see if the results appear in a peer-reviewed journal 
and Nabs will check your meditation. Then David Oreo Johnson will crunch the 
numbers to prove which one of you is enlightened with the noble indifference of 
King Tony.



--- On Sun, 1/25/09, enlightened_dawn11  wrote:

> From: enlightened_dawn11 
> Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of 
> TM practice
> To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, January 25, 2009, 10:30 PM
> if we are discussing a subject, i cannot take seriously
> those who 
> express opinions when they have no experience, or very
> limited  
> experience regarding the subject being discussed. is that
> too much 
> to ask? 
> 
> you definitely get a banana-- if you can remember to hold
> it with 
> your feet.
>  
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "yifuxero"
>  
> wrote:
> >
> > .Right! saying a particular body of ideas is
> "monkey-mind" is a 
> > subjective judgement based on content. 
> Self-Realization is based 
> on 
> > transcending content, not evaluating certain ideas and
> labeling 
> them 
> > as "monkey-mind".
> > The notion that one must give up certain modes of
> thought, or 
> > contents of thought, or a set of ideas (dogma); is a
> common Neo-
> > Advaitin fallacy and such ridiculous ideas are
> certainly not part 
> of 
> > MMY's agenda.
> > Using a similar strategy, one might evaluate the
> recorded 
> statements 
> > of Ramana, MMY, the Dalai Lama, Sri Aurobindo, SSRS,
> SBS, or any 
> > other Enlightened persons, saying such talk is
> "monkey-mind".
> > For example, Sri Aurobindo wrote many thousands of
> verses on the 
> > Divine Mother.  Is such poetry that of a
> "monkey-mind"?
> > I think not.
> > Another Neo-Advaitin non-sequitur.
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
> "geezerfreak"  
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
> enlightened_dawn11 
> >  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > since "sir john" (wtf is that all
> about?) and you have all of 
> 4 
> > years 
> > > > of TM between you, total -- him, none, and
> you a few decades 
> ago, 
> > your 
> > > > many thousand words fall into the category
> of monkey chatter. 
> > your 
> > > > words are worthy, maybe, of a banana or two,
> and nothing 
> more...
> > > > 
> > > > for those who practice TM regularly, TM is
> the daily 
> experience 
> > of 
> > > > transcending 2x a day, alternating with
> daily activity -- 
> nothing 
> > more 
> > > > or less. the Maharishi said that TM is not
> about thinking, 
> > > > imagination, hallucination, or mood making.
> trying to explain 
> > that to 
> > > > the non TM practicing monkeys here is
> futile.
> > > > 
> > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj
>  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The late great Sanskrit translator and
> yogi Sir John 
> Woodroffe
> > > >
> > > Very enlightened thinking here...demonize and
> minimize those 
> whose 
> > opinions differ from 
> > > yours.
> > >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To subscribe, send a message to:
> fairfieldlife-subscr...@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Or go to: 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/
> and click 'Join This Group!'Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 

  

[FairfieldLife] Re: TM puja is religious, as are other elements of TM practice

[geezerfreak]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11  wrote:
>
> monkeys aren't demons-- they're cute, lovable, furry monkeys, 
> chattering away to their heart's content. chatter, chatter, chatter 
> go the monkeys, about anything and everything, whether they know 
> what they are chattering about or not. here, have a banana!
> 

Fuck you "enlightened". Not!