gEDA-user: git compilation problem: undefined reference to `gtk_selection_data_get_data'
Hi! For the last few days, I'm unable to compile (or rather, to link) gEDA from git (it used to work). The error is: gcc -Wall -g -O2 -o gschem a_pan.o a_zoom.o g_funcs.o g_hook.o g_keys.o g_rc.o g_register.o globals.o gschem.o gschem_cairo.o gschem_dialog.o gschem_toplevel.o i_basic.o i_callbacks.o i_vars.o m_basic.o o_arc.o o_attrib.o o_basic.o o_box.o o_buffer.o o_bus.o o_circle.o o_complex.o o_copy.o o_cue.o o_delete.o o_find.o o_grips.o o_line.o o_misc.o o_move.o o_net.o o_path.o o_picture.o o_pin.o o_place.o o_select.o o_slot.o o_text.o o_undo.o parsecmd.o x_attribedit.o x_autonumber.o x_basic.o x_clipboard.o x_color.o x_compselect.o x_dialog.o x_event.o x_fileselect.o x_grid.o x_image.o x_log.o x_menus.o x_multiattrib.o x_pagesel.o x_preview.o x_print.o x_script.o x_stroke.o x_window.o -L/home/sascha.silbe/arch/x86_64-linux-glibc2.3.6/stow/geda-devel/lib -lstroke -L/home/sascha.silbe/arch/x86_64-linux-glibc2.3.6/stow/geda-devel/lib -lgeda -lgdk_pixbuf-2.0 -lm -lgobject-2.0 -lgmodule-2.0 -ldl -lglib-2.0 -lglib-2.0 -lgtk-x11-2.0 -lgdk-x11-2.0 -latk-1.0 -lgdk_pixbuf-2.0 -lm -lpangocairo-1.0 -lfontconfig -lXext -lXrender -lXinerama -lXi -lXrandr -lXcursor -lXfixes -lpango-1.0 -lcairo -lX11 -lgobject-2.0 -lgmodule-2.0 -ldl -lglib-2.0-pthread -lgthread-2.0 -lglib-2.0 x_clipboard.o: In function `x_clipboard_get': /home/sascha.silbe/src/geda/gaf/gschem/src/x_clipboard.c:199: undefined reference to `gtk_selection_data_get_data' I cannot find that symbol in any library (in /usr/lib). Does gEDA now require GTK 2.8.20 (that's the version on my Debian etch system)? The strange thing is that it fails at link time, not compilation time (yes, I've done make distclean to ensure everything is compiled from scratch). CU Sascha -- http://sascha.silbe.org/ http://www.infra-silbe.de/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: Language translator was: Re: Guerilla marketing...
Hi Al -- The issue isn't, is geda or kicad technologically competitive tools, the issue is can users move designs back and forth from the established eda tools and the free tools? If you answer yes then you reduce the risk of the users if you answer no then the safe action of the users is to stick with the tools that they know. That's one of the reasons I suggested the need for a bi-directional translator system, with ideas for doing it, a while back. It also needs to link to other tools and provide a path for new ones. It is a good project for summer of code. You've already got this suggestion listed on your GSoC project page here: http://wiki.gnucap.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=gnucap:projects#language_translator_main_program ...but it's only two sentences. I wonder if it would make sense to flesh out the project description a little bit more so that an interested student could get a good picture of your idea? Cheers, Stuart ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: git compilation problem: undefined reference to `gtk_selection_data_get_data'
On Friday 30 January 2009 11:50:15 Sascha Silbe wrote: x_clipboard.o: In function `x_clipboard_get': /home/sascha.silbe/src/geda/gaf/gschem/src/x_clipboard.c:199: undefined reference to `gtk_selection_data_get_data' I cannot find that symbol in any library (in /usr/lib). Does gEDA now require GTK 2.8.20 (that's the version on my Debian etch system)? The strange thing is that it fails at link time, not compilation time (yes, I've done make distclean to ensure everything is compiled from scratch). Yes, this is a 2.14.x function. I'll try and work out what the pre-2.14 version is. Peter -- Peter Brett Electronic Systems Engineer Integral Informatics Ltd signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Guerilla marketing...
On Jan 29, 2009, at 11:40 PM, Steve Meier wrote: Let us be clear on this concept. The EDA market place is in the 4 to 5 billion dollar range per year. http://www.eetimes.com/news/design/business/showArticle.jhtml? articleID=175701340 You can do all the gorilla marketing that you want to end users who are tied to the dominant tool sets, but it won't do you any good. When Jobs and Wozniak were tinkering in that garage, the dominant computer hardware was System/370. They were wise not to try to compete with that. If you want to get these users to move to another tool set there has to be a migration path and an interoperability path. gEDA's interoperability at the netlist level is better than any other thing I've seen. Nobody has solved graphical interoperability here, and gEDA won't either. The issue isn't, is geda or kicad technologically competitive tools, the issue is can users move designs back and forth from the established eda tools and the free tools? If you answer yes then you reduce the risk of the users if you answer no then the safe action of the users is to stick with the tools that they know. I think it's silly to think gEDA can go after the users who are locked in to the big tools. gEDA's natural users are those who are locked out by the high prices. Students, startups, part timers, ... If we give people a tool that gives them the leverage to do big jobs with small resources, the ones with small resources will adopt it, they'll thrive, and gEDA will ride to success on their coattails. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Guerilla marketing...
This is a chicken and egg problem. With revenue in the billions the major eda tool companies have far more resources to keep developing capabilities. On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 10:23 -0700, John Doty wrote: On Jan 29, 2009, at 11:40 PM, Steve Meier wrote: Let us be clear on this concept. The EDA market place is in the 4 to 5 billion dollar range per year. http://www.eetimes.com/news/design/business/showArticle.jhtml? articleID=175701340 You can do all the gorilla marketing that you want to end users who are tied to the dominant tool sets, but it won't do you any good. When Jobs and Wozniak were tinkering in that garage, the dominant computer hardware was System/370. They were wise not to try to compete with that. jobs and woz used a disruptive technology (the integrated circuit) to compete with the bigger hardware. If you want to get these users to move to another tool set there has to be a migration path and an interoperability path. gEDA's interoperability at the netlist level is better than any other thing I've seen. Nobody has solved graphical interoperability here, and gEDA won't either. geda and pcb lag far behind in interoperability with other layout programs and with vendor support for capabilities such as programming their flying probe testers. The issue isn't, is geda or kicad technologically competitive tools, the issue is can users move designs back and forth from the established eda tools and the free tools? If you answer yes then you reduce the risk of the users if you answer no then the safe action of the users is to stick with the tools that they know. I think it's silly to think gEDA can go after the users who are locked in to the big tools. gEDA's natural users are those who are locked out by the high prices. Students, startups, part timers, ... If we give people a tool that gives them the leverage to do big jobs with small resources, the ones with small resources will adopt it, they'll thrive, and gEDA will ride to success on their coattails. sure for isolated developers but it is far harder to work with larger organizations that want your files in the dominant eda file formats. Would open office be as big a player if it couldn't handle doc and xls files? John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Guerilla marketing...
On Jan 30, 2009, at 11:01 AM, Steve Meier wrote: This is a chicken and egg problem. With revenue in the billions the major eda tool companies have far more resources to keep developing capabilities. Bloat and complexity are expensive for everybody. On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 10:23 -0700, John Doty wrote: On Jan 29, 2009, at 11:40 PM, Steve Meier wrote: Let us be clear on this concept. The EDA market place is in the 4 to 5 billion dollar range per year. http://www.eetimes.com/news/design/business/showArticle.jhtml? articleID=175701340 You can do all the gorilla marketing that you want to end users who are tied to the dominant tool sets, but it won't do you any good. When Jobs and Wozniak were tinkering in that garage, the dominant computer hardware was System/370. They were wise not to try to compete with that. jobs and woz used a disruptive technology (the integrated circuit) to compete with the bigger hardware. And FOSS is disruptive technology, for sure. If you want to get these users to move to another tool set there has to be a migration path and an interoperability path. gEDA's interoperability at the netlist level is better than any other thing I've seen. Nobody has solved graphical interoperability here, and gEDA won't either. geda and pcb lag far behind in interoperability with other layout programs and with vendor support for capabilities such as programming their flying probe testers. I've never used pcb, so I can't comment. But gEDA is a great front end to every layout flow I've encountered. The issue isn't, is geda or kicad technologically competitive tools, the issue is can users move designs back and forth from the established eda tools and the free tools? If you answer yes then you reduce the risk of the users if you answer no then the safe action of the users is to stick with the tools that they know. I think it's silly to think gEDA can go after the users who are locked in to the big tools. gEDA's natural users are those who are locked out by the high prices. Students, startups, part timers, ... If we give people a tool that gives them the leverage to do big jobs with small resources, the ones with small resources will adopt it, they'll thrive, and gEDA will ride to success on their coattails. sure for isolated developers but it is far harder to work with larger organizations that want your files in the dominant eda file formats. I export netlists to a variety of customers who are using a variety of layout tools. gEDA is a champion at this. My customers are looking for big results on small budgets: I told one what it would cost for me to get a license for the big tool they liked, offered to use it (but they'd have to pay) and they declined to spend the extra $$. And they learned to use gEDA. Would open office be as big a player if it couldn't handle doc and xls files? Different game. The big tools can't even interoperate with each other: ever try to exchange a design with EDIF (shudder)? John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: git compilation problem: undefined reference to `gtk_selection_data_get_data'
On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 16:31 +0100, Gabriel Paubert wrote: This is the kind of pure overhead that I dislike in gtk and would not happen in other languages, but I hate C++ even more (I wrote one program with gtkmm, but am not going to repeat the experience). Fortunately, the access of such members isn't in a tight loop - hence the overhead becomes almost negligible. Not that I want to get into a debate, but I don't think you will find any other language has less overhead accessing a property - you just don't tend to see it. BTW: what is the proper way to only recompile part of gEDA when chasing this kind of bug. For now I have only found `make install´ which recompiles everything even when it has not changed. cd gschem/src make install -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Strange error from gEDA upon startup
On Thu, 2009-01-29 at 09:24 -0800, Kingston Co. wrote: Peter: I found the files in the proper place easily they are there. How do I know whether or not the gdk-pixbuf has support for xpm files? This is a fink install and I just updated it last night to the latest. Sorry, that I don't know.. Any gEDA developers on MacOS X care to take a poke at this. Ed: Were these icons always missing or just after some upgrade? (If they went after an upgrade, what packages were upgraded?) -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Guerilla marketing...
When Jobs and Wozniak were tinkering in that garage, the dominant computer hardware was System/370. They were wise not to try to compete with that. jobs and woz used a disruptive technology (the integrated circuit) to compete with the bigger hardware. And FOSS is disruptive technology, for sure. FOSS is a disruptive technology when you have a large number of developers, Each working part time or being payed from their job. This isn't the case with geda. geda and pcb lag far behind in interoperability with other layout programs and with vendor support for capabilities such as programming their flying probe testers. I've never used pcb, so I can't comment. But gEDA is a great front end to every layout flow I've encountered. I agree the geda works as a front end tool. But you can't take a geda schematic and send it to an orcad user and do them any good. Nor can you take an orcad file and use it. This is a very tall wall which stops people from being able to work together. Would open office be as big a player if it couldn't handle doc and xls files? Different game. The big tools can't even interoperate with each other: ever try to exchange a design with EDIF (shudder)? A different game? I think not. See the tall wall discussion above. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Guerilla marketing...
On Jan 30, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Steve Meier wrote: When Jobs and Wozniak were tinkering in that garage, the dominant computer hardware was System/370. They were wise not to try to compete with that. jobs and woz used a disruptive technology (the integrated circuit) to compete with the bigger hardware. And FOSS is disruptive technology, for sure. FOSS is a disruptive technology when you have a large number of developers, Each working part time or being payed from their job. This isn't the case with geda. Well, I don't know. gEDA is certainly empowering me in a pretty radical way. But of course, you always have to use the strength of the tool, not fight against it. geda and pcb lag far behind in interoperability with other layout programs and with vendor support for capabilities such as programming their flying probe testers. I've never used pcb, so I can't comment. But gEDA is a great front end to every layout flow I've encountered. I agree the geda works as a front end tool. Better than anything else around, I think. That's a major strength we should build upon. But you can't take a geda schematic and send it to an orcad user and do them any good. Never could take a Viewlogic schematic and send it to an Orcad user either. So there's nothing new here. Nor can you take an orcad file and use it. This is a very tall wall which stops people from being able to work together. Even the major commercial tools can't break down each other's walls. Would open office be as big a player if it couldn't handle doc and xls files? Different game. The big tools can't even interoperate with each other: ever try to exchange a design with EDIF (shudder)? A different game? I think not. See the tall wall discussion above. Would you think it important to get TeX to read Word files? Versatile, effective toolkit versus bloated, inefficient tool. I hope gEDA stays versatile and effective. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Guerilla marketing...
John, Mentor Graphics provides schematic and board level translators www.mentor.com/products/pcb/pads/translators Altrium does as well and did about 55 million in sales last year. https://wiki.altium.com/display/ADOH/Moving+to+Altium+Designer+From +OrCAD Steve Meier On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 13:53 -0700, John Doty wrote: On Jan 30, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Steve Meier wrote: When Jobs and Wozniak were tinkering in that garage, the dominant computer hardware was System/370. They were wise not to try to compete with that. jobs and woz used a disruptive technology (the integrated circuit) to compete with the bigger hardware. And FOSS is disruptive technology, for sure. FOSS is a disruptive technology when you have a large number of developers, Each working part time or being payed from their job. This isn't the case with geda. Well, I don't know. gEDA is certainly empowering me in a pretty radical way. But of course, you always have to use the strength of the tool, not fight against it. geda and pcb lag far behind in interoperability with other layout programs and with vendor support for capabilities such as programming their flying probe testers. I've never used pcb, so I can't comment. But gEDA is a great front end to every layout flow I've encountered. I agree the geda works as a front end tool. Better than anything else around, I think. That's a major strength we should build upon. But you can't take a geda schematic and send it to an orcad user and do them any good. Never could take a Viewlogic schematic and send it to an Orcad user either. So there's nothing new here. Nor can you take an orcad file and use it. This is a very tall wall which stops people from being able to work together. Even the major commercial tools can't break down each other's walls. Would open office be as big a player if it couldn't handle doc and xls files? Different game. The big tools can't even interoperate with each other: ever try to exchange a design with EDIF (shudder)? A different game? I think not. See the tall wall discussion above. Would you think it important to get TeX to read Word files? Versatile, effective toolkit versus bloated, inefficient tool. I hope gEDA stays versatile and effective. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Guerilla marketing...
These are importers, but you were talking about exporters before. But yes, there's more support for interoperabilty than I knew about. On Jan 30, 2009, at 2:28 PM, Steve Meier wrote: Mentor Graphics provides schematic and board level translators www.mentor.com/products/pcb/pads/translators Altrium does as well and did about 55 million in sales last year. Hmm, if they have a price on their site at all it's buried, suggesting big $$. If they're comparable to their competitors, $55 million is only a couple of thousand seats. gEDA may actually have more users than they do, as widely distributed as it is. So what are we worried about here, exactly? https://wiki.altium.com/display/ADOH/Moving+to+Altium+Designer+From +OrCAD This thread and others make me worry that we don't appreciate what we have in gEDA. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Guerilla marketing...
What I have been talking about is interoperability. How users can share projects even though they use different tools. GEDAs lack of exporting and importing limits the projects that a consultant can use it for. PCB's lack of exporting the pads ASCII makes it more difficult for assembly shops to programmer their flying probe tester. (translating PCB to and from pads ascii is one of my side pprojects) Steve Meier On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 16:55 -0700, John Doty wrote: These are importers, but you were talking about exporters before. But yes, there's more support for interoperabilty than I knew about. On Jan 30, 2009, at 2:28 PM, Steve Meier wrote: Mentor Graphics provides schematic and board level translators www.mentor.com/products/pcb/pads/translators Altrium does as well and did about 55 million in sales last year. Hmm, if they have a price on their site at all it's buried, suggesting big $$. If they're comparable to their competitors, $55 million is only a couple of thousand seats. gEDA may actually have more users than they do, as widely distributed as it is. So what are we worried about here, exactly? https://wiki.altium.com/display/ADOH/Moving+to+Altium+Designer+From +OrCAD This thread and others make me worry that we don't appreciate what we have in gEDA. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: Strange error from gEDA upon startup
Peter: It worked fine for a long time until about 4 months ago. I was doing a routine fink update and after it was finished this error showed up. I don't know what exactly fink updated. I assumed that the problem would disappear after a while put it has persisted for some time now. Here are the files from the fink sw/bin directory: gdk-pixbuf-config gdk-pixbuf-csource gdk-pixbuf-query-loaders gdk-pixbuf-query-loaders-2.0 I don't know how to find out what version these are. Thanks, Ed Kingston Co. fred...@sb.net ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Guerilla marketing...
On Jan 30, 2009, at 5:23 PM, Steve Meier wrote: What I have been talking about is interoperability. Me too, but we differ on what kind of interoperability is important. How users can share projects even though they use different tools. I work with customers who either do their own layouts or have favored layout contractors. The variety of gnetlist back ends, and the ease of creating new ones, is a unique feature of gEDA that makes this business model possible. GEDAs lack of exporting and importing limits the projects that a consultant can use it for. It depends on what you need. For what *I* need here, gEDA is the best tool around. You may have different needs, but that doesn't justify your claim that gEDA lacks exporting facilities. If you were to say My work requires the specific capability to import X and export Y I could easily agree with you (and maybe somebody would chime in with a solution), but I cannot agree that this is a *general* weakness of gEDA. Specifically, exporting netlists to just about any other tool is a radical strength. PCB's lack of exporting the pads ASCII makes it more difficult for assembly shops to programmer their flying probe tester. (translating PCB to and from pads ascii is one of my side pprojects) That's a *specific* problem, of narrow interest (although I'm sure a solution would be welcomed). It does not indicate a general weakness. And the beauty of a radically flexible FOSS tool is that you can fix it. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Guerilla marketing...
Specifically, exporting netlists to just about any other tool is a radical strength. That's a *specific* problem, of narrow interest Where as I WAS! (and will no longer) talking about the general issues of having to share work with others like open office can with MS office. Steve Meier ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Guerilla marketing...
On Jan 30, 2009, at 6:16 PM, Steve Meier wrote: Specifically, exporting netlists to just about any other tool is a radical strength. That's a *specific* problem, of narrow interest Where as I WAS! (and will no longer) talking about the general issues of having to share work with others like open office can with MS office. But *nobody* can do that in the EDA world. The commercial tools you mentioned can only import, not export. And (as an open office user) I would not want open office to be a model for gEDA: it copies all of the bloat, inflexibility, and bizarre, unpredictable behavior of the MS software it replaces. Its *only* advantage is that it's free. But gEDA is a superior toolkit. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Strange error from gEDA upon startup
On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 16:35 -0800, Kingston Co. wrote: Peter: It worked fine for a long time until about 4 months ago. I was doing a routine fink update and after it was finished this error showed up. I don't know what exactly fink updated. I assumed that the problem would disappear after a while put it has persisted for some time now. Here are the files from the fink sw/bin directory: gdk-pixbuf-config gdk-pixbuf-csource gdk-pixbuf-query-loaders gdk-pixbuf-query-loaders-2.0 I don't know how to find out what version these are. Aha.. try: gdk-pixbuf-query-loaders | grep -i xpm I have something like: /usr/lib/gtk-2.0/2.10.0/loaders/libpixbufloader-xpm.so xpm 4 gtk20 The XPM image format LGPL xpm /* XPM */ 100 If you don't have that (or similar), I guess the fink packagers need to enable more loaders when building that library (possibly it is part of GTK). -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Guerilla marketing...
John, If there exist two tools each that can import from the other then they can communicate. If person A can only speak German but can understand French and Germen. And person B can only speak French but can understand French and German then they can talk just fine. On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 18:32 -0700, John Doty wrote: On Jan 30, 2009, at 6:16 PM, Steve Meier wrote: Specifically, exporting netlists to just about any other tool is a radical strength. That's a *specific* problem, of narrow interest Where as I WAS! (and will no longer) talking about the general issues of having to share work with others like open office can with MS office. But *nobody* can do that in the EDA world. The commercial tools you mentioned can only import, not export. And (as an open office user) I would not want open office to be a model for gEDA: it copies all of the bloat, inflexibility, and bizarre, unpredictable behavior of the MS software it replaces. Its *only* advantage is that it's free. But gEDA is a superior toolkit. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Guerilla marketing...
GEDA is a Shark in a very small pond. On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 18:32 -0700, John Doty wrote: On Jan 30, 2009, at 6:16 PM, Steve Meier wrote: Specifically, exporting netlists to just about any other tool is a radical strength. That's a *specific* problem, of narrow interest Where as I WAS! (and will no longer) talking about the general issues of having to share work with others like open office can with MS office. But *nobody* can do that in the EDA world. The commercial tools you mentioned can only import, not export. And (as an open office user) I would not want open office to be a model for gEDA: it copies all of the bloat, inflexibility, and bizarre, unpredictable behavior of the MS software it replaces. Its *only* advantage is that it's free. But gEDA is a superior toolkit. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Guerilla marketing...
Stuart Brorson wrote: Hello -- I've seen an uptick in interesting industry news and industry blog postings related to zero-cost as well as open-source EDA software recently [1]. Here are two examples: http://www.eeproductcenter.com/embedded/brief/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=212902950 What's your take on this? Why does Zuken give the tool away for free? I mean, that's almost like Costco swinging open the roll gate and allowing everyone to take what they need and not pay a penny. They would never do that. I only know of one other company that gives away their schematic editor, while you have to pay for layout and autorouter. [...] -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Guerilla marketing...
On Jan 30, 2009, at 7:28 PM, Steve Meier wrote: If there exist two tools each that can import from the other then they can communicate. OK, so part of the problem from your perspective is that the commercial tools don't support their side of this deal with gEDA. ;-) GEDA is a Shark in a very small pond. Is the pond that small? gEDA is widely distributed. The companies that charge $30k/seat can't have very large customer bases, or they'd own the world. ;-) You seem to measure the size of the pond by revenue. But that doesn't work for FOSS. For me, the pond is measured by how far you can swim. With gEDA, it's a long way. Big, complex boards, mixed-signal VLSI, ... John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: EDA Freeware... was: Re: Guerilla marketing...
I've seen an uptick in interesting industry news and industry blog postings related to zero-cost as well as open-source EDA software recently [1]. Here are two examples: http://www.eeproductcenter.com/embedded/brief/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=212902950 What's your take on this? Why does Zuken give the tool away for free? I mean, that's almost like Costco swinging open the roll gate and allowing everyone to take what they need and not pay a penny. They would never do that. I can think of at least two reasons: * It's a time limited give-away, so the idea is to hook the users on CADSTAR. Then, when they realize what a useful tool it is (or they need a second seat), they'll have to buy it. * It's a sign of desperation. The EDA marketplace is overcrowded, and the only way to get any marketshare is to give your product away. I only know of one other company that gives away their schematic editor, while you have to pay for layout and autorouter. Um Eagle is free for limited sizes of designs. The freeware version has hooked zillions of users, many of whom go on to purchase the full edition. Multisim allows you to download it free for 30 days. Before Cadence, before Orcad, there was Microsim PSpice. And they gave away a studentware edition of that program. Copies of that program still circulate on the internet. Therefore, give-away EDA software is pretty common. I find it interesting that there are maybe three or four alternatives for word processing on PeeCees [1] (MS Word, OO Writer/Star Office, AbiWord, whatever is bundled with Lotus) -- and only one is used by more than 80% of users -- whereas there are at least a dozen schematic editors. And word processing represents a gigantic marketplace, whereas schematic capture programs target a tiny market slice. Maybe it has to do with the so-called network effect. Otherwise, it makes no sense to me. But the surfit of EDA software out there implies hypercompetition, and that means that economics drives the prices of the programs to zero. Stuart [1] OK, I expect to get corrected by zealots of this or that obscure word processing program. Please go ahead and tell me I am wrong. But the main point is that there is far more choice amongst commercial vendors for schematic capture programs than there is for word processing programs -- but the word processing market must be at least 1000x larger. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Guerilla marketing...
On Friday 30 January 2009, Joerg wrote: What's your take on this? Why does Zuken give the tool away for free? A while back, on another mailing list (Free Software Business, f...@crynwr.com), there was a posting about the concept of a cover crop in marketing. I will now take the liberty to repeat the posting, because it describes my feeling well... === begin quote For example, many companies are using what you might call a Cover Crop pattern. (Instead of borrowing military terms for marketing all the time, let's use one from agriculture.) http://www.sarep.ucdavis.edu/newsltr/v7n3/sa-8.htm You plant a cover crop not to harvest and eat it, but to add nitrogen and organic matter to the soil, encourage a population of beneficial insects, and to choke out weeds that would otherwise grow up to compete with your regular crop. Some examples of the cover crop pattern are: * MSFT Visual Studio 60-day license in C# books (beneficial insects: the ones that can code in C#; weeds choked out: the next Turbo Pascal * MSIE included with pre-installed MSFT Windows (nitrogen in the soil: MSIE-compatible web sites; weeds choked out...well, IANAL) * warez copies of Adobe Photoshop * academic discount programs * ubiquitous PHP and MySQL in every Linux distribution, and on every web hosting site Cover crops tend to be very cheap and easy to plant, compared to the main crop that you're protecting. (And they're not just for established fields -- a recommended part of clearing land is to plant a green manure crop to be plowed under before planting the real pasture or crop.) The benefits of a cover crop probably wouldn't be worth it if it cost much more. So part of Cover Crop as a business model design pattern would be that low cost distribution is more important than high-information-feedback distribution. end quote == So, for Zuken, the freeware version of Eagle, the freeware version of Multisim, the student version of Pspice What is the organic matter being added to the soil? What are the beneficial insects? And finally: What are the weeds they want to choke out? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: Monkey Business was: Guerrilla Marketing
At the last Boston dorkbot meeting, Jay Silver and Eric Rosenbaum from the MIT Lifelong Kindergarten (http://llk.media.mit.edu) presented some of the educational projects they are working on. After the meeting I was discussing open source EDA tools with Jay Silver. He was so enthusiastic about the tools I decided to do an open source remix of ladyada's remix of Jay's Drawdio circuit. My remix is at http://tinyurl.com/bq8pq4 The documentation file contains plots of the schematic and pcb layouts, embedded datasheets of all components used, BOM and component lists. Line items in the BOM and component list hyperlink to the appropriate datasheet. The tarball contains the schematic and PCB source files. My hope is to get the university Eagle onto the endangered species list at this fine minimum security institute. (* jcl *) -- You can't create open hardware with closed EDA tools. http://www.luciani.org ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Guerilla marketing...
On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 22:17:47 -0500, al davis wrote: because it describes my feeling well... To me, the trial-, academic-, crippled-, whatsoever-licenses just look like baits to lure users into vendor lock-in. Give-away now, cash-in later, when hooked. Just happened last week at my university day-job: An eagle schematics provided by colleague at a different institute could not be opened for editing with eagle v4 because it was saved with eagle v5. This resulted in cash-flow at CadSoft for an update of our multi-user license. There is no option to save in backward compatible format... ---(kaimartin)--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak http://lilalaser.de/blog ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
