Re: JOSM Translations

[Dirk Stöcker]

On Sun, 19 Feb 2017, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


I admit I have copied the initial message from Dirk to talk, thinking that
indeed there might be people around of those languages with missing
translations, not knowing that help could be needed but willing to give a
hand:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2017-February/077579.html

I excuse if this was premature...


I'm not subscribed to any other list anymore, so feel free to spread the 
word. Everthing which helps to improve the situation is welcome.


Sanitizing my language I have seen :-)

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Re: JOSM Translations

[Dirk Stöcker]

On Sun, 19 Feb 2017, Holger Mappt wrote:

It would be interesting to know how important translations are. Maybe it is 
okay for most of the users to use the English version.


The last days:

8079 (31.7%) en
5489 (21.5%) de
2615 (10.3%) ru
2157 ( 8.5%) fr
1541 ( 6.0%) en_GB
1018 ( 4.0%) es
 849 ( 3.3%) it
 709 ( 2.8%) pl
 468 ( 1.8%) ja
 426 ( 1.7%) nl
 311 ( 1.2%) zh_TW
 309 ( 1.2%) pt_BR
 239 ( 0.9%) zh_CN
 223 ( 0.9%) cs
 186 ( 0.7%) en_AU
 175 ( 0.7%) hu
 126 ( 0.5%) sv
 101 ( 0.4%) id
  92 ( 0.4%) uk
  81 ( 0.3%) sk
  57 ( 0.2%) da
  49 ( 0.2%) fi
  48 ( 0.2%) pt
  45 ( 0.2%) ca
  39 ( 0.2%) lt
  31 ( 0.1%) el
  17 ( 0.1%) nb
   5 ( 0.0%) be
   3 ( 0.0%) tr
   3 ( 0.0%) bg
   2 ( 0.0%) et
   2 ( 0.0%) gl
   1 ( 0.0%) vi
   1 ( 0.0%) ast

62% use a non-english version. That number would probably be higher if the 
translations in some languages would be better.


I think one of the issues is the enormous number of strings. We reached 1 
a few weeks ago. And there is a pretty high update frequency. You need days 
to catch up if no translation was done for a few months.


Yes. That's obvious. That burden can only be reduced when distributed to 
more shoulders (althought single people did translate thousands of texts).


Here everybody with more than 3000 translations:
14921 - pitort - ca   = 7959 - ca@valencia= 6962
10844 - andygol- ru   =  290 - uk   =10554
10486 - Viktar Palsciuk- be   =10486
10451 - mmyfl  - zh_CN=10451
10195 - Dirk Stöcker   - de   = 5146 (others: many languages as fixes)
10080 - aceman444  - cs   = 5220 - sk   = 4860
 8594 - Minh Nguyễn- vi   = 8594
 8132 - DiGro  - nl   = 8132
 7543 - edrux  - ast  = 7524 - es   =   19
 7512 - Davide Prade   - it   = 7512
 7441 - RPome  - pt   = 7441
 6726 - fujimoto   - ja   = 6726
 6186 - Casiope
 5972 - Chao-Hsiung Liao   - zh_TW= 5972
 5698 - Jørn   - da   = 5698
 5694 - Dalibor Jelínek- cs   = 5693 - sk   =1
 5656 - Báthory Péter  - hu   = 5656
 5633 - Casiope- fr   = 5633
 5335 - Felipe L.  - pt_BR= 5335
 4710 - Vlado  - sk   = 4710
 4562 - Dee-earlsoft   - en_GB= 4562
 3873 - Emilio Gomez Fernandez - es   = 3872 - fr   =1
 3858 - Sophea Sok - km   = 3858
 3720 - Aleksey Kabanov- ru   = 3720
 3584 - Robert Readman - en_AU= 3266 - en_GB=  318
 3309 - Ettore Atalan  - de   = 3309
 3110 - Rui- pt   = 3110
 3097 - Hiroshi Miura  - ja   = 3097
 3035 - Vitor George   - pt_BR= 3035

Another issue is the quality of the strings. Some source strings are not 
English (but French, Dutch, Polish, etc), have unknown acronyms in it, or


These are bugs and should be fixed.

it's just not clear what the string is about. That mainly affects plugins and 
the imagery. I sometimes open a ticket if the quality is bad. JOSM core 
tickets are resolved promptly, but plugin authors are lazy or don't respond


Yes. That's an issue. The success of JOSM has some drawbacks and 
unmaintained plugins is one of them. The core developers try to manage 
them, but we already have lots of core issues. No solution for this ATM. 
For things like translating issues tickets should nevertheless be opened. 
They are usually easy to fix and thus also easy to handle by the core 
team.


at all. There is no good way to address issues with the imagery strings 
(there is actually no way).


See answers in related ticket #12179.

One solution could be to separate the JOSM core strings from the plugin and 
imagery strings. Then translators can concentrate on the JOSM core, it would 
reduce the timeout errors, and it becomes doable to actually translate all 
(core) strings.


The other solution would be the long discussed migration to transifex. It 
includes also the splitting in 3 string groups.


Plugins are a different topic. I think there is no way to attract people to 
translate a large number of strings that nobody will ever read. An idea would 
be to rank the untranslated strings by the number of plugin installations (do 
we know this?) to start with the important strings. But Launchpad sorts them 
alphabetically, not by importance.


Oh. We know EVERYTHING :-) Don't ask me why this list has reversed order 
to the languages though - probably I implemented them at different 
times...


   4 (* 0.1%) NanoLog
  10 (* 0.2%) matsim
  15 (* 0.2%) videomapping
  22 (* 0.3%) sds
  27 (* 0.4%) globalsat
  32 (* 0.5%) czechaddress
  35 (* 0.6%) michigan_left
  35 (* 0.6%) epci-fr
  37 (* 0.6%) plastic_laf
  38 (* 0.6%) native_password_manager
  41 (* 0.6%) wms-turbo-challenge2
  45 (* 0.7%) canvec_helper
  46 (* 0.7%) scoutsigns
  48 (* 0.8%) OSMRecPlugin
  48 (* 0.8%) surveyor
  50 (* 0.8%) touchscreenhelper
  51 (* 0.8%) o5m
  51 (* 0.8%) pointInfo
  51 (* 0.8%) TombPlug

Re: JOSM Translations

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-02-19 18:38 GMT+01:00 Holger Mappt :

> It would be interesting to know how important translations are. Maybe it
> is okay for most of the users to use the English version.




if you can understand English it is IMHO preferable to use JOSM in en even
if your language is completely translated, because many terms can be easier
recognized and tags can be found easier if you see them in the actual
language, and you don't face potential translation inconsistencies (e.g. a
node can be a "Knoten", "Node", "Punkt" etc. in German). It also helps to
contribute bug issues, ask a wider audience for specific help, etc. But if
you don't understand English a local translation is obviously needed. One
problem is maybe that translations are not needed by those who are able to
provide them (nobody is scratching his own itch here) ;-)

I admit I have copied the initial message from Dirk to talk, thinking that
indeed there might be people around of those languages with missing
translations, not knowing that help could be needed but willing to give a
hand:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2017-February/077579.html

I excuse if this was premature...

Cheers,
Martin

Re: JOSM Translations

[simson.gert...@gmail.com]

I think the main point is Launchpad. It is completely unusable. Last
time I even needed to request the po file download link twice, just to
check a single translation string. The websearch did't work at all.

The second point is, that we need some groups. I think the users want to
start to translate the presets and the main menu entries and not some
cryptic error messages, they don't understand and therefore are not able
to translate them, even if they want to.

Best Regards,
Stefan

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Re: JOSM Translations

[Holger Mappt]

On 2017-02-19 at 14:19 +0100 Dirk Stöcker wrote:

I had a look at our translation statistics recently and I find it awful,
that there is no real progress to see, compared to the situation a few
years ago.

Does anybody have ideas how more translators could be attracted for the
languages which have many missing texts?

We do daily text uploads and although launchpad has issues from time to
time it usually is stable. The tools exist.

I think the main problem is that people aren't aware they could help and
are needed to do so.


Hi,

It would be interesting to know how important translations are. Maybe it 
is okay for most of the users to use the English version.


I think one of the issues is the enormous number of strings. We reached 
1 a few weeks ago. And there is a pretty high update frequency. You 
need days to catch up if no translation was done for a few months.


Another issue is the quality of the strings. Some source strings are not 
English (but French, Dutch, Polish, etc), have unknown acronyms in it, 
or it's just not clear what the string is about. That mainly affects 
plugins and the imagery. I sometimes open a ticket if the quality is 
bad. JOSM core tickets are resolved promptly, but plugin authors are 
lazy or don't respond at all. There is no good way to address issues 
with the imagery strings (there is actually no way).


Launchpad has issues all the time. It was okay for a while, but now the 
timeout error is back again, I get it every time I translate something. 
What's really missing is the possibility to comment a string to add 
hints for other translators.


One solution could be to separate the JOSM core strings from the plugin 
and imagery strings. Then translators can concentrate on the JOSM core, 
it would reduce the timeout errors, and it becomes doable to actually 
translate all (core) strings.


Plugins are a different topic. I think there is no way to attract people 
to translate a large number of strings that nobody will ever read. An 
idea would be to rank the untranslated strings by the number of plugin 
installations (do we know this?) to start with the important strings. 
But Launchpad sorts them alphabetically, not by importance.


For the imagery strings I opened ticket #12179, but it looks like no one 
is interested to improve the current situation.


Holger

Re: JOSM Translations

[Vincent Privat]

First thing is get rid of Launchpad and finish what was started with the
move to Transifex.

The launchpad UI is terrible, especially when you face OOPS errors every
time you search something. I myself completely gave up with the translation
effort because of it, so I presume I am not the only one.

Then one possible outcome would be to promote translation from JOSM itself.
Maybe something like what it is done with Jenkins:
https://wiki.jenkins-ci.org/display/JENKINS/Translation+Assistance+Plugin

2017-02-19 15:31 GMT+01:00 Malcolm Herring :

> On 19/02/2017 13:19, Dirk Stöcker wrote:
>
>> I think the main problem is that people aren't aware they could help and
>> are needed to do so.
>>
>
> Maybe post your message in the general list? There may be able translators
> there who do not read this newsgroup.
>
>
>

Re: JOSM Translations

[Malcolm Herring]

On 19/02/2017 13:19, Dirk Stöcker wrote:

I think the main problem is that people aren't aware they could help and
are needed to do so.


Maybe post your message in the general list? There may be able 
translators there who do not read this newsgroup.

JOSM Translations

[Dirk Stöcker]

Hello,

I had a look at our translation statistics recently and I find it awful, 
that there is no real progress to see, compared to the situation a few 
years ago.


A few languages are well maintained, but already such common languages 
like French and Spanish have large gaps.


Mainly a few individuals keep the whole translations business alive (many 
thanks to these mostly unnamed heros BTW).


Does anybody have ideas how more translators could be attracted for the 
languages which have many missing texts?


We do daily text uploads and although launchpad has issues from time to 
time it usually is stable. The tools exist.


I think the main problem is that people aren't aware they could help and 
are needed to do so.


Ciao
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Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Translations

[Dirk Stöcker]

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012, colliar wrote:


You can translate whatever you want. There is no ownership of tasks for
any language and no progress for Id language at all I fear.


Is there a possibility on trac to inform a user that someelse is already
editing the page ?


Not that I know.


Happened to me three times last week and three-way-merge did not work.


Simultaneous edits are a problem in Trac. Only solution I know is to copy 
your content into clipboard, reload the edit, paste your content and then 
check the preview/differences to join the changes until the new page no 
longer kills the edits of previous author.


A lot of people break larger changes into smaller parts to prevent 
trouble.


Ciao
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Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Translations

[colliar]

Am 30.01.2012 00:02, schrieb Dirk Stöcker:
> You can translate whatever you want. There is no ownership of tasks for
> any language and no progress for Id language at all I fear.

Is there a possibility on trac to inform a user that someelse is already
editing the page ?

Happened to me three times last week and three-way-merge did not work.

cu
Colliar



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Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Translations

[Dirk Stöcker]

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012, Frans Thamura wrote:


i am from indonesia, we speak bahasa, i love to translate the "heavy"
tutorial rather the menu .. :)

anyone work on this?


You can translate whatever you want. There is no ownership of tasks for 
any language and no progress for Id language at all I fear.


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Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Translations

[Frans Thamura]

i am from indonesia, we speak bahasa, i love to translate the "heavy"
tutorial rather the menu .. :)

anyone work on this?

F



On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 4:47 AM, Vincent Privat
 wrote:
> Looks like your call has been heard and answered, at least for French, with
> 450 strings translated today !
>
> 2012/1/28 Dirk Stöcker 
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> currently only 3 translations are really actively maintained. These are
>> Italian, Ukrainian and German.
>>
>> If these of you speaking other languages could help translating the
>> software or maybe help to find others (f.e. normal non-developing users) to
>> help it would be very fine.
>>
>> So all of you non-english speakers: Try to find people willing to help
>> updating at least the core software.
>>
>> I know we have a large number of about 100 to 200 new strings a month and
>> about 5500 core texts and 7300 total texts. This is a lot, but with a
>> little contribution from time to time it can be done.
>>
>> Localized versions are important to reach most older people as well as
>> these, which aren't as international oriented as we programmers.
>>
>> A lot of information and statistics are on the translation webpage:
>>
>> http://josm.openstreetmap.de/**wiki/Translations
>>
>> P.S. Even for the 100% languages proofreading is necessary and the wiki
>> also has lots of missing pages.
>>
>> Ciao
>> --
>> http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available)
>>
>>
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Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Translations

[Vincent Privat]

Looks like your call has been heard and answered, at least for French, with
450 strings translated today !

2012/1/28 Dirk Stöcker 

> Hello,
>
> currently only 3 translations are really actively maintained. These are
> Italian, Ukrainian and German.
>
> If these of you speaking other languages could help translating the
> software or maybe help to find others (f.e. normal non-developing users) to
> help it would be very fine.
>
> So all of you non-english speakers: Try to find people willing to help
> updating at least the core software.
>
> I know we have a large number of about 100 to 200 new strings a month and
> about 5500 core texts and 7300 total texts. This is a lot, but with a
> little contribution from time to time it can be done.
>
> Localized versions are important to reach most older people as well as
> these, which aren't as international oriented as we programmers.
>
> A lot of information and statistics are on the translation webpage:
>
> http://josm.openstreetmap.de/**wiki/Translations
>
> P.S. Even for the 100% languages proofreading is necessary and the wiki
> also has lots of missing pages.
>
> Ciao
> --
> http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available)
>
>
> __**_
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> josm-dev@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/josm-dev
>
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[josm-dev] JOSM Translations

[Dirk Stöcker]

Hello,

currently only 3 translations are really actively maintained. These are 
Italian, Ukrainian and German.


If these of you speaking other languages could help translating the 
software or maybe help to find others (f.e. normal non-developing users) 
to help it would be very fine.


So all of you non-english speakers: Try to find people willing to help 
updating at least the core software.


I know we have a large number of about 100 to 200 new strings a month and 
about 5500 core texts and 7300 total texts. This is a lot, but with a 
little contribution from time to time it can be done.


Localized versions are important to reach most older people as well as 
these, which aren't as international oriented as we programmers.


A lot of information and statistics are on the translation webpage:

http://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Translations

P.S. Even for the 100% languages proofreading is necessary and the wiki 
also has lots of missing pages.


Ciao
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Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Translations Page : Missing link

[Jo]

Shouldn't it be 'your' instead of 'you'?

Jo

2011/10/31 Dirk Stöcker :
> On Sun, 30 Oct 2011, Pierre Béland wrote:
>
>> while translating page http://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Translations
>> I found a broken link on the following line :
>> * Add you language in init() function of
>> [source:trunk/src/org/openstreetmap/tools/I18n.java I18n.java].
>>
>> Can someone confirm that it should be ?
>> * Add you language in init() function of
>> [source:browser/josm/trunk/src/org/openstreetmap/tools/I18n.java I18n.java].
>
> No. Simply the "josm" was missing before "tools". I fixed it.
>
> Ciao
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Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Translations Page : Missing link

[Dirk Stöcker]

On Sun, 30 Oct 2011, Pierre Béland wrote:


while translating page http://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Translations
I found a broken link on the following line :
* Add you language in init() function of 
[source:trunk/src/org/openstreetmap/tools/I18n.java I18n.java].

Can someone confirm that it should be ?
* Add you language in init() function of 
[source:browser/josm/trunk/src/org/openstreetmap/tools/I18n.java I18n.java].


No. Simply the "josm" was missing before "tools". I fixed it.

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[josm-dev] JOSM Translations Page : Missing link

[Pierre Béland]

while translating page http://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Translations 
I found a broken link on the following line :
* Add you language in init() function of 
[source:trunk/src/org/openstreetmap/tools/I18n.java I18n.java]. 

Can someone confirm that it should be ?
* Add you language in init() function of 
[source:browser/josm/trunk/src/org/openstreetmap/tools/I18n.java I18n.java]. 


Pierre Béland 
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Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Translations

[Dirk Stöcker]

On Mon, 10 Oct 2011, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen wrote:


Trying to pick up the JOSM help translations, but were
not able to login. Tried to get a new password (and got it) but that
did not help. Tried to re-register under a new name, but got a logon request 
!???
when the registration confirmation should have appeared.
Something wrong with  josm.openstreetmap.de , firefox, or. ?


I think there is a bug in account management plugin, which may explain 
some issues (i.e. reset pwd not working). See also 
http://trac-hacks.org/ticket/9252


But be sure you clear your auto-form-fill entries of the browser or you 
maybe unable to change username.


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Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Translations

[ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen]

Trying to pick up the JOSM help translations, but were
not able to login. Tried to get a new password (and got it) but that
did not help. Tried to re-register under a new name, but got a logon request 
!???
when the registration confirmation should have appeared.
Something wrong with  josm.openstreetmap.de , firefox, or. ?

Gert Gremmen
-

Openstreetmap.nl  (alias: cetest)
 Before printing, think about the environment. 



-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: Dirk Stöcker [mailto:openstreet...@dstoecker.de] 
Verzonden: Sunday, October 02, 2011 11:09 PM
Aan: josm-dev@openstreetmap.org
Onderwerp: [josm-dev] JOSM Translations

Hello,

the JOSM translations for Arabic, Greek, Hebrew, Icelandic and Turkish 
don't fullfill the minimum standards for some time now. The translation 
status can be seen at http://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Translations. 
I did not finally decide yet, but I tend to remove these languages 
in future releases when situation does not improve.

So if anybody uses JOSM in these languages, then please improve 
translation.

Other languages like Estonian, Indonesian, Basque, Finnish, Bulgarian and 
Swedish are very close to the limit as well.

Ciao
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Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Translations

[Dirk Stöcker]

On Sun, 2 Oct 2011, Frederik Ramm wrote:

With JOSM continuously gaining more features, maintaining full translations, 
especially those spoken only by a small group of mappers or worse, only by 
translators who are not even familiar with mapping, becomes harder.


When there is not a single change in translation for months then degradion 
of quality is to be expected. The languages I mentioned have not even been 
near 100% in their best days in the past.


For this reason - but not for this reason alone - I would love to see 
something like a "JOSM light", a version of JOSM that brings the benefits of 
a stable, standalone, offline-capable editor without tons and tons of extra 
features.


I know I know, but I don't think this will happen :-) But we plan an 
expert/novice mode to make it easier for beginners.


I have no idea how this should be achieved. One way would certainly be to 
reverse course and put more stuff back into plugins - possibly improving the 
plugin architecture along the way. Trying to fork off a JOSM light would also 
be an option.


I don't see any features of core which aren't really important parts and 
could be stripped. Maybe some of the tools functions could, but this would 
neither change software size nor translation count in a noticeable way.


This would enable us to have an almost fully translated "JOSM light" that 
beginner users could use without having to fear the occasional un-translated 
English message.


From my experiences with other software developed in the past I know, that 
the amount of texts is not really relevant for the fact whether a 
translation is complete or not. More important is if a person feels 
responsible or not.


That texts change is normal part of software development. I rather have a 
partially untranslated JOSM than an unchanging one, as that would mean the 
software is dead.


The original mail is mainly a trial to find someone responsible for the 
abondoned languages. Other projects are much more strict when dropping 
languages (they have limits like 90%, not 20%).


At the same time, there would be clear priorities for translators - translate 
the JOSM light messages first, then progress to the more complex things 
needed for the full feature set. At the moment, a translator would not know 
if "You moved more than {0} elements." is more or less important to translate 
than "Please launch the preferences dialog and retrieve another OAuth token." 
...


In Launchpad the texts are already ordered in the order of importance: 
First core strings, then presets and additional texts, then plugins.


Even if we fail to make a proper "JOSM light", that last issue - knowing 
which texts are part of everyday mapping and which aren't - is something that 
we could investigate. Would it, for example, be possible to use different 
translation wrappers in the code - e.g. tr1(), tr2(), tr3() instead of only 
tr() - to denote importance?


Hardly. While this is possible in general it wont work. I.e. error texts 
are usually never visible, but when they are, you need to understand them 
or you are totally lost. Most of the strings in the software are thus 
strings, which are seldom or never shown, but when they are they are 
important.


What is possible already today is to add a comment in front of tr(), 
giving hints to the translators. I usually add I18N as keyword in the 
text, like this: /* I18N: Don't translate the text in brackets */


Currently we have approx. 50 to 150 strings per release, which means a 
workload of 5 strings a day. If a translator uses 5 hours each month, he 
could probably translate about 300-500 strings and a year later one of the 
bad languages could reach 100%. For Chinese I have seen that JOSM complete 
can be done in two days.


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Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Translations

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 10/02/2011 11:09 PM, Dirk Stöcker wrote:

the JOSM translations for Arabic, Greek, Hebrew, Icelandic and Turkish
don't fullfill the minimum standards for some time now. The translation
status can be seen at http://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Translations. I
did not finally decide yet, but I tend to remove these languages in
future releases when situation does not improve.


With JOSM continuously gaining more features, maintaining full 
translations, especially those spoken only by a small group of mappers 
or worse, only by translators who are not even familiar with mapping, 
becomes harder.


At the same time, I guess that "power users" are more likely to be able 
to use the English version of the program.


For this reason - but not for this reason alone - I would love to see 
something like a "JOSM light", a version of JOSM that brings the 
benefits of a stable, standalone, offline-capable editor without tons 
and tons of extra features.


I have no idea how this should be achieved. One way would certainly be 
to reverse course and put more stuff back into plugins - possibly 
improving the plugin architecture along the way. Trying to fork off a 
JOSM light would also be an option.


This would enable us to have an almost fully translated "JOSM light" 
that beginner users could use without having to fear the occasional 
un-translated English message.


At the same time, there would be clear priorities for translators - 
translate the JOSM light messages first, then progress to the more 
complex things needed for the full feature set. At the moment, a 
translator would not know if "You moved more than {0} elements." is more 
or less important to translate than "Please launch the preferences 
dialog and retrieve another OAuth token." ...


Even if we fail to make a proper "JOSM light", that last issue - knowing 
which texts are part of everyday mapping and which aren't - is something 
that we could investigate. Would it, for example, be possible to use 
different translation wrappers in the code - e.g. tr1(), tr2(), tr3() 
instead of only tr() - to denote importance?


Bye
Frederik

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[josm-dev] JOSM Translations

[Dirk Stöcker]

Hello,

the JOSM translations for Arabic, Greek, Hebrew, Icelandic and Turkish 
don't fullfill the minimum standards for some time now. The translation 
status can be seen at http://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Translations. 
I did not finally decide yet, but I tend to remove these languages 
in future releases when situation does not improve.


So if anybody uses JOSM in these languages, then please improve 
translation.


Other languages like Estonian, Indonesian, Basque, Finnish, Bulgarian and 
Swedish are very close to the limit as well.


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[josm-dev] JOSM Translations

[Dirk Stöcker]

Hello,

I did checkin a major change today. The translation data for JOSM plugins 
is no longer contained in the JOSM core, but now each plugin has 
individual files.


This has a lot of advantages:
 - JOSM core is smaller (should not be much, but a little bit)
 - Plugin translation is independent of core version
 - 3rd party plugins can use the same translation infrastructure:
   There is a perl script creating the files from .pot and .po
 - It is much cleaner design

It also has some disadvantages:
 - Much more files in SVN
 - The I18N update process is much slower now
 - Plugins carry all translations of a plugin including the ones already
   present in core (I could remove these, but I wanted to keep the core
   independence as told bove) - For many-plugin-users this may increase
   size a bit.

I did not change the Launchpad translation method, so Launchpad still has 
only one project with all texts included. I think splitting this has no 
real advantages. I only changed the order a bit, so that plugin texts 
should be always last (previous the came after core and before presets and 
other stuff).


ATTENTION: This change needed rebuilding of ALL plugins. I may have made 
errors, so please be aware of trouble and report such when it occurs.


Plugins scripting and contourmerge aren't developed in SVN anymore, so I 
dropped them. Links to external download ressources are required for 
these, but I was unable to find correct links.


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[josm-dev] JOSM Translations BIG problem

[Dirk Stöcker]

Hello,

the JOSM translation handling got a VERY big problem now. The current 
gettext method will no longer work. The auto-generated Java code does no 
longer compile due to "code too large". This means we need to change that 
code and when we do this, we can also fix all the other related problems 
like space wasting.

Mainly this means we need to change to another format of data storage:
i.e. one file for each language and one file for English where each file 
has same layout.

I already tried to do this once, but failed is I was unable to extract the 
hashing algorithm from "msgfmt" (GNU codes are so heavy interlinked, that 
it is very hard to reuse code).

Essentially a good hashing is the only thing which is missing to drop 
gettext use and switch to e.g. text based files.

Suggestions welcome!

A short description how gettext works at all. The software maintains a 
large hash which holds English strings and for each string it looks in 
this hash and selects the related translations. When nothing found, then 
the original string is returned. The main speed issue is thus the hashing 
to access strings which should have very little (no?) conflicts.

For number-based strings it is a bit more complicated, as you have 
multiple translations and based on the number and the algorithm to choose 
one of these strings the selection is done (languages may have up to 6 
different forms, where English has only two).

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Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Translations

[Женя]

Oh, thanks for the explanation.
I'll wait till that happens. 


-Original Message-
From: Dirk StЖcker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: josm-dev@openstreetmap.org
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 14:32:08 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Translations

> On Mon, 3 Nov 2008, Женя wrote:
> 
> >> Changeset [1065] by stoecker
> >> language handling fixed
> >
> > But I'm still unable to set Russian in JOSM #1065
> > Moreover, English is the only variant in the preferences list :(
> 
> Frederik has to change the makefile based nightly build to get that 
> working. There is nothing we others can do here. It is working, but not 
> built correctly.
> 
> Ciao
> -- 
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> 
> ___
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> 

Женя mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Translations

[Dirk Stöcker]

On Mon, 3 Nov 2008, Женя wrote:


Changeset [1065] by stoecker
language handling fixed


But I'm still unable to set Russian in JOSM #1065
Moreover, English is the only variant in the preferences list :(


Frederik has to change the makefile based nightly build to get that 
working. There is nothing we others can do here. It is working, but not 
built correctly.


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Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Translations

[Michel Marti]

on 11/03/2008 01:28 PM Женя said the following:
> So, the changelog says:
> 
>> Changeset [1065] by stoecker
>> language handling fixed
> 
> But I'm still unable to set Russian in JOSM #1065
> Moreover, English is the only variant in the preferences list :(

"josm-latest.jar" (SVN r1065) still does not contain the translations:

 $ jar tf ./josm-latest.jar |grep Transl
 $

However, when building JOSM myself (using ant):

 $ jar tf dist/josm-custom.jar |grep Transl
 org/openstreetmap/josm/i18n/Translation_de$1.class
 org/openstreetmap/josm/i18n/Translation_de.class
 org/openstreetmap/josm/i18n/Translation_en_GB$1.class
 org/openstreetmap/josm/i18n/Translation_en_GB.class
 ...
 $

Seems like the nightly builds are not made using the same ANT infrastructure?!?


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Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Translations

[Женя]

Hi again. 
So, the changelog says:

>Changeset [1065] by stoecker
>language handling fixed

But I'm still unable to set Russian in JOSM #1065
Moreover, English is the only variant in the preferences list :(

>
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ /usr/lib/jvm/java-6-sun-1.6.0.*/bin/java -jar 
josm-latest.jar
Unable to find translation for the locale: русский (Россия) reverting to 
English.
Could not get presets icon presets/library.png
loading measurement
loading openstreetbugs
Trying to load locale ru for openstreetbugs
Couldn't load resource bundle for locale ru_RU
Trying to load locale en for openstreetbugs
Silent shortcut conflict: 'Open OpenStreetBugs' moved by 'system:open' to 
'Ctrl+Shift+O'.
loading osmarender
loading utilsplugin
Silent shortcut conflict: 'auto:Simplify Way' moved by 'system:redo' to 
'Ctrl+Shift+Y'.
>



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Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Translations

[Shaun McDonald]

On 31 Oct 2008, at 07:05, Stefan Baebler wrote:

> 2008/10/30 Женя <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> About the Launchpad usage - I don't really think there is much use  
>> of the existing translation suggestions - those are limited to  
>> "File", "Tools" and "Save as..." :)
>> Plus, LP works really slow over HTTPS for me.
> True, but when starting translating into a new language even these
> speed up the translation considerably, getting the translator quicker
> over these boring phrases. I guess importing just few other (old &
> well translated) projects translations into pootle would do the trick.
>
> Another benefit of launchpad is the exposure the project gets amongst
> experienced translators looking for new projects to translate. JOSM is
> featured on front page of https://translations.launchpad.net/

The interesting thing that I noticed at Launchpad is that the en_GB  
translation has German translations for some reason.
https://translations.launchpad.net/josm/trunk/+pots/keys/en_GB/+translate
Is this correct?

Shaun


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Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Translations

[Stefan Baebler]

2008/10/30 Женя <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> About the Launchpad usage - I don't really think there is much use of the 
> existing translation suggestions - those are limited to "File", "Tools" and 
> "Save as..." :)
> Plus, LP works really slow over HTTPS for me.
True, but when starting translating into a new language even these
speed up the translation considerably, getting the translator quicker
over these boring phrases. I guess importing just few other (old &
well translated) projects translations into pootle would do the trick.

Another benefit of launchpad is the exposure the project gets amongst
experienced translators looking for new projects to translate. JOSM is
featured on front page of https://translations.launchpad.net/

> So, now - a bug report about the new built-in localisations:
> JOSM rev1059 - it can't find the Russian translation.
See the thread "Resource bundle not found exception" on this list.

Stefan
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Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Translations

[Женя]

First of all, thanks for the good news. I like the idea of localisations inside 
the core.
I can't tell, wether it's good or bad to store all the plug-in translations in 
the core, too - but if it doesn't affect the archive size too much, I can live 
with that. Plus it's easier to translate, after all.

About the Launchpad usage - I don't really think there is much use of the 
existing translation suggestions - those are limited to "File", "Tools" and 
"Save as..." :) 
Plus, LP works really slow over HTTPS for me.

So, now - a bug report about the new built-in localisations:
JOSM rev1059 - it can't find the Russian translation.

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ /usr/lib/jvm/java-6-sun-1.6.0.*/bin/java -jar 
josm-latest.jar
Unable to find translation for the locale: русский (Россия) reverting to 
English.
loading measurement
loading openstreetbugs
Trying to load locale ru for openstreetbugs
Couldn't load resource bundle for locale ru_RU
Trying to load locale en for openstreetbugs
Silent shortcut conflict: 'Open OpenStreetBugs' moved by 'system:open' to 
'Ctrl+Shift+O'.
loading osmarender
loading utilsplugin
Silent shortcut conflict: 'auto:Simplify Way' moved by 'system:redo' to 
'Ctrl+Shift+Y'.

PS

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ locale
LANG=ru_RU.UTF-8
LC_CTYPE="ru_RU.UTF-8"
LC_NUMERIC="ru_RU.UTF-8"
LC_TIME="ru_RU.UTF-8"
LC_COLLATE="ru_RU.UTF-8"
LC_MONETARY="ru_RU.UTF-8"
LC_MESSAGES="ru_RU.UTF-8"
LC_PAPER="ru_RU.UTF-8"
LC_NAME="ru_RU.UTF-8"
LC_ADDRESS="ru_RU.UTF-8"
LC_TELEPHONE="ru_RU.UTF-8"
LC_MEASUREMENT="ru_RU.UTF-8"
LC_IDENTIFICATION="ru_RU.UTF-8"
LC_ALL=


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Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Translations

[Stefan Baebler]

A significant benefit of launchpad based translation is that many
other opensource applications are translated there, giving translators
a wide range of suggestions about how to translate strings.
Applications benefit a lot from consistent translations.

Downside of launchpad based translation is the need for an account in
launchpad, no automated SVN integration and forced BSD license [1] on
translated strings (lowest common denominator of varoius licenses).
I'd say these are minor inconveniences, but i might be wrong.

Stefan

[1] https://help.launchpad.net/Translations/LicensingFAQ


On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 12:55 PM, Lars Kruse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
> Frederik Ramm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>> But does this change not mean that in the future, everyone who wants to
>> translate something needs an account on JOSM SVN? Is that desirable?
>
> This could be either solved by using launchpad (as mentioned before) or by 
> using
> a pootle[1] server.
>
> Pootle is a translation web interface similar to launchpad. Some advantages 
> are:
>
> 1) automatic synchronization with a subversion repository (instead of manual
> down/uploads and update/commit in launchpad)
> 2) various permission levels (suggest, review, translate, commit, ...)
> 3) it is free software
>
> If anyone would like to test pootle for the josm translations, then I would
> volunteer to set this up on a pootle server[2], that I am administrating.
> This would not collide with manual svn uploads of pootle files - it would be
> just an alternative path with a lower participation threshold for translators.
>
> regards,
> Lars
>
>
> [1] http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/pootle
> [2] http://translate.systemausfall.org
>
>
>
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Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Translations

[Dirk Stöcker]

On Tue, 28 Oct 2008, Frederik Ramm wrote:

>> Sounds good to me. Thought I do not know how automatic build will handle
>> that. Frederik?
>
> Would have to be modified (since it does not use the ant build script).

Well. Would be fine to have the autobuild always used the most current 
translations and thus updates the compiled translations before building 
josm).

> But does this change not mean that in the future, everyone who wants to
> translate something needs an account on JOSM SVN? Is that desirable?

No. That's why we left the translations in OSM-SVN.

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Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Translations

[Marcin Floryan]

On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 05:37:41PM +0100, Frederik Ramm wrote:

> >> 1.) The plugins/lang directory is removed
> >> (http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/editors/josm/plugins/lang)
> >> 2.) A new directory "i18n" is created
> >> (http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/editors/josm/i18n)
> >> 3.) The new directory contains all .po files and necessary build scripts
> >> 4.) As a result of build in that directory a new .jar file is created
> >>and copied to the core/lib directory
> >> (http://josm.openstreetmap.de/svn/trunk/lib/josm-translation.jar)
> >> 5.) The core build process is modified to include the new jar file
> >> 6.) The MainApplications.java is modified to init the I18n.i18n
> > 
> > Sounds good to me. Thought I do not know how automatic build will handle 
> > that. Frederik?
> 
> Would have to be modified (since it does not use the ant build script). 
> But does this change not mean that in the future, everyone who wants to 
> translate something needs an account on JOSM SVN? Is that desirable?

Not really. All the translation files are still held on the OSM SVN so
people who want to contribute with translations can work there. Also,
since adding new languages now would only require the new .po file to be
added (and not the plugin files) it will be easier to take advantage of 
launchpad translations (with someone committing the changes from lp to
svn). An account on JOSM SVN would only be required to change the
translation lib bundled with JOSM. So a small admin task that I presume
could easily be carried out by people who already have access. 
 
> > An option in the JOSM configuration is required also. Having much 
> > discusson on merkaartor mailinglist I'm pretty sure it is required :-)
> 
> True.

OK. I thought so. Will add one.

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Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Translations

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Dirk Stöcker wrote:
>> 1.) The plugins/lang directory is removed
>> (http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/editors/josm/plugins/lang)
>> 2.) A new directory "i18n" is created
>> (http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/editors/josm/i18n)
>> 3.) The new directory contains all .po files and necessary build scripts
>> 4.) As a result of build in that directory a new .jar file is created
>>and copied to the core/lib directory
>> (http://josm.openstreetmap.de/svn/trunk/lib/josm-translation.jar)
>> 5.) The core build process is modified to include the new jar file
>> 6.) The MainApplications.java is modified to init the I18n.i18n
> 
> Sounds good to me. Thought I do not know how automatic build will handle 
> that. Frederik?

Would have to be modified (since it does not use the ant build script). 
But does this change not mean that in the future, everyone who wants to 
translate something needs an account on JOSM SVN? Is that desirable?

> An option in the JOSM configuration is required also. Having much 
> discusson on merkaartor mailinglist I'm pretty sure it is required :-)

True.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Translations

[Dirk Stöcker]

Hello,

>> When you create the infrastructure to have the translation stuff in main
>> core - Fine. Thought we also need a way to interlink the language plugin
>> SVN structure as it is now with the new system, as I would not like to
>> move translation into JOSM core SVN (restricted write access, you know).
>
> I have done and tested the changes listed below. The results is that
> there is no longer need for any translation plugins and i18n is
> integrated into josm-core. There is also an appropriate link between the
> two SVN repositories.
>
> The pending changes are:
>
> 1.) The plugins/lang directory is removed
> (http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/editors/josm/plugins/lang)
> 2.) A new directory "i18n" is created
> (http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/editors/josm/i18n)
> 3.) The new directory contains all .po files and necessary build scripts
> 4.) As a result of build in that directory a new .jar file is created
>and copied to the core/lib directory
> (http://josm.openstreetmap.de/svn/trunk/lib/josm-translation.jar)
> 5.) The core build process is modified to include the new jar file
> 6.) The MainApplications.java is modified to init the I18n.i18n

Sounds good to me. Thought I do not know how automatic build will handle 
that. Frederik?

> Now translations will be shown appropriately to the users' default
> locale and can still be overridden with the --language parameter. It
> would be easy as well to add language selection to properties.

An option in the JOSM configuration is required also. Having 
much discusson on merkaartor mailinglist I'm pretty sure it is 
required :-)

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Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Translations

[Marcin Floryan]

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 08:25:29AM +0200, Dirk Stöcker wrote:

> > translation of the core and the translation of the plugins should be
> > decoupled. That's why I put the i18n of the OpenStreetBugs plugin into
> > the plugin jar and didn't use the (for java) unusual gettext mechanism.
> 
> This has already been discussed. Gettext is an established system for 
> translations whereas the Java way has a lot of drawbacks.

I do agree - gettext approach is better not least because it provides
better tools for translators.

> The management overhead to separate the plugin and core translations is 
> nothing I would accept.

Even if this meant just two translations - one for core and one for all
plugins? I can see where this gets more complicated but than plugins
change much more frequently than core does.
 
> What I would accept is moving the translations as they are now into the 
> core and abandon the language plugins. That means JOSM core would include 
> translations of plugins which may not be loaded, but that is a minor issue 
> in my eyes.

If this is a general consensus then is there anyone taking up this task?
I am willing to volunteer for this one.

Regards,
Marcin
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Re: [josm-dev] JOSM Translations

[Dirk Stöcker]

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, Henrik Niehaus wrote:

Please fix you quoting style. Top-quoting is not the best idea and 
starting your own text with a quoting sign is also not so good. Thanks.

> From my point of view, the idea, to remove the i18n plugins and move the
> i18n to the core is good. It makes things easier, if you just have to
> put a language file into the jar or anywhere in a directory. The

Whereas I agree, that having the translations directly in the JOSM core to 
make usage easier I disagree at some other points.

> translation of the core and the translation of the plugins should be
> decoupled. That's why I put the i18n of the OpenStreetBugs plugin into
> the plugin jar and didn't use the (for java) unusual gettext mechanism.

This has already been discussed. Gettext is an established system for 
translations whereas the Java way has a lot of drawbacks.

Making a different approach for OpenStreetBugs plugin is nothing I 
consider useful. Altogether this also means that the JOSM translators wont 
translate the OpenStreetBugs plugin.

> But there could be a way, how plugins register there i18n, if the core
> needs access to it.

Why should the core require access to translation of plugins?

> Resumee:
> - no i18n plugins
> - core i18n in the core
> - plugin i18n in the plugins (maybe register at the core)

The management overhead to separate the plugin and core translations is 
nothing I would accept.

What I would accept is moving the translations as they are now into the 
core and abandon the language plugins. That means JOSM core would include 
translations of plugins which may not be loaded, but that is a minor issue 
in my eyes.

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