[libreoffice-l10n] [ANN] LibreOffice 4.1.0 RC4 test builds available for smoketesting

[Thorsten Behrens]

Hi *,

QA found a number of problems that were initially addressed via a
hotfix for the Linux packages, but then resulted in a fully new build
today - we're now uploading builds of LibreOffice 4.1.0 RC4 to a
public (but non-mirrored - so don't spread news too widely!) place, as
soon as they're available. Grab them here:

 http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/pre-releases/

If you've a bit of time, please give them a try & report *critical*
bugs, especially regressions relative to prior RCs here, so we can
incorporate them into the release notes. Please note that it takes
approximately 24 hours to populate the mirrors, so that's about the
time we have to collect feedback.

The list of fixed bugs vs. 4.1.0 RC3 is available here

 
http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/pre-releases/src/bugs-libreoffice-4-1-0-release-4.1.0.4.log

I'd like to especially ask QA volunteers from the following locales,
to please verify the fix of fdo#67093:

as
bg
br
gl
lt
pt-BR
pt
ru
sv
te
uk
zh-CN
zh-TW

Thanks a lot for your help,

-- Thorsten

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Fwd: Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Bug 67227: longer-than-in-English strings won't fit

[Sophie]

forwarding to the list, sorry for the wrong reply-to Martin.
Sophie
 Message original 
Sujet: Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Bug 67227: longer-than-in-English strings 
won't fit

Date : Wed, 24 Jul 2013 00:57:05 +0200
De : Sophie 
Pour : Martin Srebotnjak 

Le 24/07/2013 00:29, Martin Srebotnjak a écrit :

Unfortunately, Sophie, I am using RC3 and have those issues.
If needed I can provide screenshots.


It's not needed for me, I believe you :) but please provide your version
number on the issue, because it's currently mentioning rc1
Cheers
Sophie




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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Bug 67227: longer-than-in-English strings won't fit

[Martin Srebotnjak]

Unfortunately, Sophie, I am using RC3 and have those issues.
If needed I can provide screenshots.

Lp, m.

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Bug 67227: longer-than-in-English strings won't fit

[Sophie]

Le 23/07/2013 23:15, Martin Srebotnjak a écrit :

2013/7/23 Mihkel Tõnnov 

I found a regression caused by converting dialogs to the new Glade UI,
whereby strings that are considerably longer than their English originals,
are cut off at the end. On my setup, it affects Estonian, Finnish, French,
and sometimes German strings (and most likely others that I didn't test).

All this probably depends on font size, so could you see if this affects
your locale, too, and document your findings at
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67227 so the problem could be
fixed?


I confirmed it for Slovenian and quoted some examples.


Did you tried with the last RC? I remember I reported this issue (that 
was on security options) and that was fixed. When I check in the RC3 FR 
I get currently I don't have strings truncated in the option dialogs you 
mention in the issue.

Kind regards
Sophie


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Bug 67227: longer-than-in-English strings won't fit

[Martin Srebotnjak]

> 2013/7/23 Mihkel Tõnnov 
>> I found a regression caused by converting dialogs to the new Glade UI,
>> whereby strings that are considerably longer than their English originals,
>> are cut off at the end. On my setup, it affects Estonian, Finnish, French,
>> and sometimes German strings (and most likely others that I didn't test).
>>
>> All this probably depends on font size, so could you see if this affects
>> your locale, too, and document your findings at
>> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67227 so the problem could be
>> fixed?

I confirmed it for Slovenian and quoted some examples.

Lp, m.

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Bug 67227: longer-than-in-English strings won't fit

[Sérgio Marques]

I´m using 4.0.x in Portuguese

The Portuguese strings are longer than English ones. But none of them are
cutted.

I will try it in 4.1 to check them.

Regards

2013/7/23 Mihkel Tõnnov 

> Hi all,
>
> I found a regression caused by converting dialogs to the new Glade UI,
> whereby strings that are considerably longer than their English originals,
> are cut off at the end. On my setup, it affects Estonian, Finnish, French,
> and sometimes German strings (and most likely others that I didn't test).
>
> All this probably depends on font size, so could you see if this affects
> your locale, too, and document your findings at
> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67227 so the problem could be
> fixed?
>
> Best regards,
> Mihkel
> Estonian team
>
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Martin Srebotnjak]

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich :
> So effectively such placing of the comments is a thing of future, relying on
> several changes in the technological process (comments proper + toolkit
> refactored)?
>
> I was more interested in what might be done in that matter sort of now and
> read your message from a wrong perspective.
>

As Sophie wrote, it might already be possible, the right person to ask
would be ... Andras?

Lp, m.

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Yury Tarasievich]

So effectively such placing of the comments is a 
thing of future, relying on several changes in 
the technological process (comments proper + 
toolkit refactored)?


I was more interested in what might be done in 
that matter sort of now and read your message 
from a wrong perspective.


-Yury

On 07/23/2013 07:40 PM, Martin Srebotnjak wrote:

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich :


So where would the comment come from after the re-generation?



I have written that already in another mail - from the code, from the
same place where the string comes. There should be some refactoring of
the toolkit to get pot files generated, of course.

Lp, m.



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Sophie]

Hi,
Le 23/07/2013 18:40, Martin Srebotnjak a écrit :

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich :


So where would the comment come from after the re-generation?



I have written that already in another mail - from the code, from the
same place where the string comes. There should be some refactoring of
the toolkit to get pot files generated, of course.


I've already seen this one or two times, some comments in the code 
filled for l10n purpose. What I'm not sure of is if they appear in 
Pootle as a comment.


Kind regards
Sophie


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Yury Tarasievich]

My cryptic point is: the terse string 'Title' 
(having ID *_TITEL) in this particular case is 
not only uninformative, but also is capable of 
producing an error after translation.


Hence, it'd be good not only to obtain 
divergence of English originals for this and for 
*_HEADLINE_BASE, but also to put into *_TITEL 
something more informative.


Therefore, suggestions to the tune of 'Name of 
the document' or even 'Heading of the document' 
(to clearly indicate it's not about filename, 
but about some sort of key entry).


BTW, Help, at least in 3.6.7, contains precious 
nothing on this string.


-Yury


On 07/23/2013 08:50 PM, Christian Lohmaier wrote:

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 5:48 PM, Yury Tarasievich
 wrote:

'Title', 'Heading', 'Name of the document' -- all these are good and bad.


No - in this context "Name of the document" is simply wrong for either
of the two strings.

And honestly: What is your point? You throw in random strings from
other places, but I seriously fail to see your point.


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[libreoffice-l10n] Bug 67227: longer-than-in-English strings won't fit

[Mihkel Tõnnov]

Hi all,

I found a regression caused by converting dialogs to the new Glade UI,
whereby strings that are considerably longer than their English originals,
are cut off at the end. On my setup, it affects Estonian, Finnish, French,
and sometimes German strings (and most likely others that I didn't test).

All this probably depends on font size, so could you see if this affects
your locale, too, and document your findings at
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67227 so the problem could be
fixed?

Best regards,
Mihkel
Estonian team

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Christian Lohmaier]

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 5:48 PM, Yury Tarasievich
 wrote:
> 'Title', 'Heading', 'Name of the document' -- all these are good and bad.

No - in this context "Name of the document" is simply wrong for either
of the two strings.

And honestly: What is your point? You throw in random strings from
other places, but I seriously fail to see your point.

ciao
Christian

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Martin Srebotnjak]

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich :
>
> So where would the comment come from after the re-generation?
>
>
I have written that already in another mail - from the code, from the
same place where the string comes. There should be some refactoring of
the toolkit to get pot files generated, of course.

Lp, m.

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 07/23/2013 07:23 PM, Martin Srebotnjak wrote:

SDF is deprecated - POT files are generated directly from code, and PO
files are directly checked back into code.


So where would the comment come from after the 
re-generation?


-Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Martin Srebotnjak]

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich :
>
> On 07/23/2013 06:48 PM, Sophie wrote:
> ...
>
>>> Now, is there a POT fileset serving as the
>>> root source of English strings?
>>> Is one Andras publishes such root source?
>>> Or is there one more root-ish than that?
>>
>>
>> The latest pot file is published here by Andras
>> http://dev-www.libreoffice.org/l10n/latest-pot/
>>
>> Some of us do not use Pootle for translation or
>> as a repository.
>
>
> Yes, us for one. :) That's why I'm asking: what is the definitive source for
> the English strings and their context? E.g., in the pre-split days there was
> SDF root source and POT fileset was a derivative.
>

SDF is deprecated - POT files are generated directly from code, and PO
files are directly checked back into code.

Lp, m.

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Yury Tarasievich]

On 07/23/2013 06:48 PM, Sophie wrote:
...

Now, is there a POT fileset serving as the
root source of English strings?
Is one Andras publishes such root source?
Or is there one more root-ish than that?


The latest pot file is published here by Andras
http://dev-www.libreoffice.org/l10n/latest-pot/

Some of us do not use Pootle for translation or
as a repository.


Yes, us for one. :) That's why I'm asking: what 
is the definitive source for the English strings 
and their context? E.g., in the pre-split days 
there was SDF root source and POT fileset was a 
derivative.


-Yury

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Martin Srebotnjak]

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich :
> Would such comment be a solution, really?
>
> For one, PO fileset is local. Work put there is being constantly lost, if
> slowly.
>
> Now, is there a POT fileset serving as the root source of English strings?
> Is one Andras publishes such root source?
> Or is there one more root-ish than that?

A pot file can contain an English/source comment, a po file keeps that
comment and can add/edit a localized version or comment to that
comment.
So I think that would be the solution for those few tricky strings.

I just hope that when pot files are generated they would also get the
comment from the code i.e. the comment for pot file should be included
with the original string in the code. Someone correct me if I am
wrong.

Lp, m.

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Sophie]

Le 23/07/2013 17:39, Yury Tarasievich a écrit :

Would such comment be a solution, really?


I don't know, we find the bug because we use the same set of docs during 
the tests of FR versions. Then we narrow that the EN version was ok and 
the bug appears between beta1 and beta2 and was present in other 
languages. So may be yes, having some comments in the po file would help 
to not propagate that sort of error.


For one, PO fileset is local. Work put there is being constantly lost,
if slowly.

Now, is there a POT fileset serving as the root source of English strings?
Is one Andras publishes such root source?
Or is there one more root-ish than that?


The latest pot file is published here by Andras
http://dev-www.libreoffice.org/l10n/latest-pot/

Some of us do not use Pootle for translation or as a repository.
Kind regards
Sophie


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Yury Tarasievich]

'Title', 'Heading', 'Name of the document' -- 
all these are good and bad. That string (being 
the label for the 1st field on the 2nd tab 
'Description' in Document properties) is too 
vague in its purpose and use, anyway. And it 
seems it's a rudiment from times of restrictive 
filenames, never set deliberately.


-Yury

On 07/23/2013 04:46 PM, Sérgio Marques wrote:



2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich
mailto:yury.tarasiev...@gmail.com>>

Better comprehensibility would also be good.
The "Title->Name of the document" variant
might also be considered for (2).


I don´t think so as Christian explained:

"The TITEL one is for the Document Title, The
title of a book that
usually only appears once at the beginning/on
the cover of the
document, or also used as chapter title."

So if this is document title, it´s not de
document name. That might even be confuse
because of I also understand "Name of document"
as "Filename".

Regards


-Yury

On 07/23/2013 02:42 PM, Sérgio Marques wrote:

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich
 Actually, I mean changing both:
 1) Heading -> Heading Base Style
 2) Title -> Document title
If the only problem is same translation for
"Heading" and "Title" my proposal is
change only
"Title" to "Document Title". The other
should
stay as is.

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Yury Tarasievich]

Would such comment be a solution, really?

For one, PO fileset is local. Work put there is 
being constantly lost, if slowly.


Now, is there a POT fileset serving as the root 
source of English strings?

Is one Andras publishes such root source?
Or is there one more root-ish than that?

-Yury

On 07/23/2013 05:35 PM, Christian Lohmaier wrote:
...

And yes, a comment in the po file is one way to avoid that. And yes,
not using the translated names as internal IDs of course is better. It
will confuse the heck out of users to have two styles with the same
name, with no way to distinguish them. But at least the document state
would stay consistent. So you would still need the additional
checks/hint for translators.


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Sérgio, *,

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 4:02 PM, Sérgio Marques  wrote:
> 2013/7/23 Martin Srebotnjak 

Why was there no announcement when getting the changes from pootle?
→ because there was no check that triggered a warning. Also there was
no merge-conflict, as the problem is not with the translated strings,
but how they are used.

And yes, a comment in the po file is one way to avoid that. And yes,
not using the translated names as internal IDs of course is better. It
will confuse the heck out of users to have two styles with the same
name, with no way to distinguish them. But at least the document state
would stay consistent. So you would still need the additional
checks/hint for translators.

> Agreed but please notice that those strings came from OO and never was the
> need to change.

No need for change was always there - but probably nobody complained
for that language. This time round, large language communities were
affected that did spot the inconsistency. So call it luck that the
bigger groups did make that mistake to take this problem into focus.

>> 2013/7/23 Sérgio Marques :
>> > 2013/7/23 Krunoslav Šebetić 
>> >>  On 07/23/2013 01:45 PM, Sérgio Marques wrote:
>> > [...]
>> > But we do need to know when a conflict exist. If we don´t know it how can
>> > we fix?

I thought this was pretty clear: You must not use the same string for
those two IDs. The Heading style must have a different translation
than then Title style.

>> >> We also have problem with that - it's only our fault...

At least nobody did spot that problem in all the time where the
strings were the same for over 30 languages...

ciao
Christian

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Sérgio Marques]

2013/7/23 Martin Srebotnjak 

> I have a solution.
>
> PO files do have a comment field.
>
> This was unused before because the actual strings resided in sdf files
> and po files were just a derivative of sdf files. But now PO and POT
> files are the true base.
>
> So I guess it is job of authors of strings and documentation team to
> write to those fields, as well as translation teams to warn co-workers
> and other teams with a short notice that can prevent disaster (BEWARE:
> this translation should not be the same as with style Title ...).
>
>
Agreed but please notice that those strings came from OO and never was the
need to change. To add those comments we need to review strings and know
what they are used for.

I must say even tough I´m fluent in English, I don´t use all suite so I
really can´t tell which one are fine or not.

Nor do I have the ability to produce code cause I´m not a developer.

What I can do is spot when some string is wrong and propose a correction
but also as bug report and not coding.

Regards



> Lp, m.
>
> 2013/7/23 Sérgio Marques :
> > 2013/7/23 Krunoslav Šebetić 
> >
> >>  On 07/23/2013 01:45 PM, Sérgio Marques wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> I'm fallowing this list for a few years but wasn't active till now, and
> >> I'm not sure how it merged but bug is there.
> >>
> >>
> >> Also:
> >>
> >> If the only problem is same translation for "Heading" and "Title" my
> >> proposal is change only "Title" to "Document Title". The other should
> stay
> >> as is.
> >>
> >>  I don't think that anything should be changed in english LO strings, if
> >> original differs heading from title, translators should be careful about
> >> that, it can not be translated the same.
> >>
> >
> > But we do need to know when a conflict exist. If we don´t know it how can
> > we fix?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> We also have problem with that - it's only our fault...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sérgio Marques
> >
> > --
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Sérgio Marques]

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich 

> Better comprehensibility would also be good.
> The "Title->Name of the document" variant might also be considered for (2).
>

I don´t think so as Christian explained:

"The TITEL one is for the Document Title, The title of a book that
usually only appears once at the beginning/on the cover of the
document, or also used as chapter title."

So if this is document title, it´s not de document name. That might even be
confuse because of I also understand "Name of document" as "Filename".

Regards


>
> -Yury
>
> On 07/23/2013 02:42 PM, Sérgio Marques wrote:
>
>> 2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich
>> Actually, I mean changing both:
>> 1) Heading -> Heading Base Style
>> 2) Title -> Document title
>> If the only problem is same translation for
>> "Heading" and "Title" my proposal is change only
>> "Title" to "Document Title". The other should
>> stay as is.
>>
> ...
>
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Martin Srebotnjak]

I have a solution.

PO files do have a comment field.

This was unused before because the actual strings resided in sdf files
and po files were just a derivative of sdf files. But now PO and POT
files are the true base.

So I guess it is job of authors of strings and documentation team to
write to those fields, as well as translation teams to warn co-workers
and other teams with a short notice that can prevent disaster (BEWARE:
this translation should not be the same as with style Title ...).

Lp, m.

2013/7/23 Sérgio Marques :
> 2013/7/23 Krunoslav Šebetić 
>
>>  On 07/23/2013 01:45 PM, Sérgio Marques wrote:
>>
>>
>> I'm fallowing this list for a few years but wasn't active till now, and
>> I'm not sure how it merged but bug is there.
>>
>>
>> Also:
>>
>> If the only problem is same translation for "Heading" and "Title" my
>> proposal is change only "Title" to "Document Title". The other should stay
>> as is.
>>
>>  I don't think that anything should be changed in english LO strings, if
>> original differs heading from title, translators should be careful about
>> that, it can not be translated the same.
>>
>
> But we do need to know when a conflict exist. If we don´t know it how can
> we fix?
>
>
>
>
>>
>> We also have problem with that - it's only our fault...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Sérgio Marques
>
> --
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Yury Tarasievich]

Better comprehensibility would also be good.
The "Title->Name of the document" variant might 
also be considered for (2).


-Yury

On 07/23/2013 02:42 PM, Sérgio Marques wrote:

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich
Actually, I mean changing both:
1) Heading -> Heading Base Style
2) Title -> Document title
If the only problem is same translation for
"Heading" and "Title" my proposal is change only
"Title" to "Document Title". The other should
stay as is.

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Sérgio Marques]

2013/7/23 Krunoslav Šebetić 

>  On 07/23/2013 01:45 PM, Sérgio Marques wrote:
>
>
> I'm fallowing this list for a few years but wasn't active till now, and
> I'm not sure how it merged but bug is there.
>
>
> Also:
>
> If the only problem is same translation for "Heading" and "Title" my
> proposal is change only "Title" to "Document Title". The other should stay
> as is.
>
>  I don't think that anything should be changed in english LO strings, if
> original differs heading from title, translators should be careful about
> that, it can not be translated the same.
>

But we do need to know when a conflict exist. If we don´t know it how can
we fix?




>
> We also have problem with that - it's only our fault...
>
>
>
>


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Adolfo Jayme Barrientos]

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 6:53 AM, Krunoslav Šebetić  wrote:
> We also have problem with that - it's only our fault...

I disagree: why is it our fault? Shouldn't LibreOffice handle styles
in a translation-agnostic way in the first place?

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Krunoslav Šebetić]

On 07/23/2013 01:53 PM, Krunoslav Šebetić wrote:

On 07/23/2013 01:45 PM, Sérgio Marques wrote:



2013/7/23 Krunoslav Šebetić >


On 07/23/2013 01:03 PM, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
I like the idea of a veto but only if it's used for when a
particular language has had it's translations broken or
corrupted in some way.  Obviously the example of "French" was
a bit daft because the French translation is always
excellent.  However, it's difficult to see a good example of
when a veto might be needed or might have been good.  You
always seem to fix any problems.  Perhaps having a formal
veto option "written up" as a rule might encourage the very
problem it's trying to forestall?
Regards from
Tom :)


Is it possible to just send an announce mail to the announcement
list and worn translator to check their translations and then
pool fixed translations from Pootle before official rc, so that
all languages can get valid (the bug free) release?



Usually when there are translation conflicts, Andras used to send a 
message.


If he didn´t do it, I suppose that all merge went fine, isn´t it?



I'm fallowing this list for a few years but wasn't active till now, 
and I'm not sure how it merged but bug is there.


Also:

If the only problem is same translation for "Heading" and "Title" my
proposal is change only "Title" to "Document Title". The other should stay
as is.
I don't think that anything should be changed in english LO strings, 
if original differs heading from title, translators should be careful 
about that, it can not be translated the same.


We also have problem with that - it's only our fault...



It just can be two identical strings in same part/feature of the same 
module of LO, maybe in different parts, features or modules, but can't 
have two the same heading titles. I'm not sure is that even a bug...



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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Krunoslav Šebetić]

On 07/23/2013 01:45 PM, Sérgio Marques wrote:



2013/7/23 Krunoslav Šebetić >


On 07/23/2013 01:03 PM, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
I like the idea of a veto but only if it's used for when a
particular language has had it's translations broken or
corrupted in some way.  Obviously the example of "French" was
a bit daft because the French translation is always excellent.
 However, it's difficult to see a good example of when a veto
might be needed or might have been good.  You always seem to
fix any problems.  Perhaps having a formal veto option
"written up" as a rule might encourage the very problem it's
trying to forestall?
Regards from
Tom :)


Is it possible to just send an announce mail to the announcement
list and worn translator to check their translations and then pool
fixed translations from Pootle before official rc, so that all
languages can get valid (the bug free) release?



Usually when there are translation conflicts, Andras used to send a 
message.


If he didn´t do it, I suppose that all merge went fine, isn´t it?



I'm fallowing this list for a few years but wasn't active till now, and 
I'm not sure how it merged but bug is there.


Also:

If the only problem is same translation for "Heading" and "Title" my
proposal is change only "Title" to "Document Title". The other should stay
as is.
I don't think that anything should be changed in english LO strings, if 
original differs heading from title, translators should be careful about 
that, it can not be translated the same.


We also have problem with that - it's only our fault...




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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Sérgio Marques]

2013/7/23 Krunoslav Šebetić 

> On 07/23/2013 01:03 PM, Tom Davies wrote:
>
>> Hi :)
>> I like the idea of a veto but only if it's used for when a particular
>> language has had it's translations broken or corrupted in some way.
>>  Obviously the example of "French" was a bit daft because the French
>> translation is always excellent.  However, it's difficult to see a good
>> example of when a veto might be needed or might have been good.  You always
>> seem to fix any problems.  Perhaps having a formal veto option "written up"
>> as a rule might encourage the very problem it's trying to forestall?
>> Regards from
>> Tom :)
>>
>
> Is it possible to just send an announce mail to the announcement list and
> worn translator to check their translations and then pool fixed
> translations from Pootle before official rc, so that all languages can get
> valid (the bug free) release?



Usually when there are translation conflicts, Andras used to send a message.

If he didn´t do it, I suppose that all merge went fine, isn´t it?

Regards
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Sérgio Marques]

2013/7/23 Yury Tarasievich 

> Actually, I mean changing both:
> 1) Heading -> Heading Base Style
> 2) Title -> Document title
>

If the only problem is same translation for "Heading" and "Title" my
proposal is change only "Title" to "Document Title". The other should stay
as is.

Regards


>
> And yes, other root (not-for-end-user) styles might be changed on the
> lines of (1), too. Wouldn't hurt, would reduce confusion. However, such
> change would quite an undertaking, as the basic set of stylenames is
> hardcoded in source. I don't see it happening...
>
> -Yury
>
> On 07/23/2013 12:54 PM, Niklas Johansson wrote:
>
>> Do you mean changing Heading to Heading Base Style?
>> The style thats called Title is not the base
>> style of the headings, it's rather the
>> document/book title.
>> Since there are other styles based on Heading
>> could we run into trouble if we change the name?
>>
>> If we change Heading to Heading Base Style then
>> what about other styles that serve as "base
>> styles"?
>> For example: Index, Caption, List.
>> Other base styles that is used more as a normal
>> styles includes Text body, Table Contents.
>>
>> Should it be a question for UX-advise?
>>
>> /Niklas
>>
>> Yury Tarasievich skrev 2013-07-23 11:32:
>>
>>> Or, even better (?), rename it to the tune of
>>> "Heading Base Style".
>>>
>>> -Yury
>>>
>>> On 07/23/2013 12:11 PM, Niklas Johansson wrote:
>>>
 Hi

 For future versions of LibreOffice wouldn't it
 be a good idea to change the English string from
 Title to Main Title? Or is it wrong to call it

>>> ...
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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[libreoffice-l10n] mix between Title and Header in various l10n - veto thing

[Krunoslav Šebetić]

On 07/23/2013 01:03 PM, Tom Davies wrote:

Hi :)
I like the idea of a veto but only if it's used for when a particular language has had it's 
translations broken or corrupted in some way.  Obviously the example of "French" was a 
bit daft because the French translation is always excellent.  However, it's difficult to see a good 
example of when a veto might be needed or might have been good.  You always seem to fix any 
problems.  Perhaps having a formal veto option "written up" as a rule might encourage the 
very problem it's trying to forestall?
Regards from
Tom :)


Is it possible to just send an announce mail to the announcement list 
and worn translator to check their translations and then pool fixed 
translations from Pootle before official rc, so that all languages can 
get valid (the bug free) release?


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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
Ah, i didn't realise this thread was about a particular problem that has 
happened!  

Please ignore my previous posts in this thread!
Apols and regards from 
Tom :





>
> From: Sophie 
>To: l10n@global.libreoffice.org 
>Sent: Monday, 22 July 2013, 21:22
>Subject: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header 
>in various l10n
> 
>
>
>Hi all,
>So here is the answer coming from Christian, it seems that lot of us are 
>affected by this bug. I hope we will have a rc4 where we will be able to 
>have it corrected, but I'm not sure however it's important enough to 
>stop a release. Anyway, please fix for translation asap as it's 
>corrupting documents, the sooner it's fixed, the better. Even if it 
>doesn't make it in 4.1.0 (and it's not a production version), 4.1.1 is 
>next month. What I really don't like is the poor quality it renders for 
>our translation.
>Kind regards
>Sophie
> Message original 
>Sujet: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n
>Date : Mon, 22 Jul 2013 21:39:25 +0200
>De : Christian Lohmaier 
>Pour : Sophie 
>Copie à : libreoffice-dev 
>
>Hi Sophie, *,
>
>On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 4:47 PM, Sophie  wrote:
>>
>> I've seen this patch
>> https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/4994
>>
>> correcting this issue for French
>> https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67093
>>
>> But much more locale than French seems to be affected from the tests made by
>> the FR team (PT, RU, IT, SP, CN...)
>
>I did some grepping and applied some old translations from the time of
>the 4.1 branch where the translations did differ between the two.
>
>(13 languages) - but still 23 remain with the problem.
>
>> The issue here is that data are lost because the style structure is
>> modified.
>> Has it been modified also for the other languages, or should I send a head
>> up on the l10n list?
>
>after the fix for french and https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/5038/
>, the following languages still have the problem:
>
>egrep -A3 "(STR_POOLCOLL_HEADLINE_BASE|STR_POOLCOLL_DOC_TITEL)"
>*/sw/source/ui/utlui.po |grep msgstr | uniq -d
>be/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Загаловак"
>bn-IN/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "শিরোনাম"
>bn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "শিরোনাম"
>bo/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ཁ་བྱང་།"
>bs/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Naslov"
>hi/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षक"
>hr/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Naslov"
>id/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Judul"
>kok/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "मथळो"
>ko/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "제목"
>mai/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षक"
>mni/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "মিংথোল"
>mn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Гарчиг"
>my/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ခေါင်းစဉ်"
>ne/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षक"
>nn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Overskrift"
>oc/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Títol"
>om/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Mataduree"
>or/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ଶୀର୍ଷକ"
>sa-IN/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षकः"
>sid/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Umo"
>tg/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Сарлавҳа"
>ug/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ماۋزۇ"
>
>kl and ky don't have a translation. So that leaves 23 languages where
>the strings are the same.
>
>List of languages:
>
>be bn-IN bn bo bs hi hr id kok ko mai mni mn my ne nn oc om or sa-IN sid 
>tg ug
>
>ciao
>Christian
>
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Tom Davies]

Hi :)
I like the idea of a veto but only if it's used for when a particular language 
has had it's translations broken or corrupted in some way.  Obviously the 
example of "French" was a bit daft because the French translation is always 
excellent.  However, it's difficult to see a good example of when a veto might 
be needed or might have been good.  You always seem to fix any problems.  
Perhaps having a formal veto option "written up" as a rule might encourage the 
very problem it's trying to forestall?
Regards from
Tom :)  





>
> From: Sophie 
>To: Martin Srebotnjak  
>Cc: l10n@global.libreoffice.org 
>Sent: Monday, 22 July 2013, 21:56
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and 
>Header in various l10n
> 
>
>Le 22/07/2013 22:26, Martin Srebotnjak a écrit :
>> I do believe that l10n language leaders should have a right to veto
>> the release in certain language (i.e. yes, you can have 4.1.0, but
>> without French packages etc.).
>
>Yes I agree with you
>
>> So the first release gets released, but no damage is made to a certain
>> language community.
>
>Well, I don't like it in fact, I want my language to be part of the 
>release party ;) So I prefer we be all together to release our version.
>
>Kind regards
>Sophie
>>
>> Lp, m.
>>
>> 2013/7/22 Sophie :
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>> So here is the answer coming from Christian, it seems that lot of us are
>>> affected by this bug. I hope we will have a rc4 where we will be able to
>>> have it corrected, but I'm not sure however it's important enough to stop a
>>> release. Anyway, please fix for translation asap as it's corrupting
>>> documents, the sooner it's fixed, the better. Even if it doesn't make it in
>>> 4.1.0 (and it's not a production version), 4.1.1 is next month. What I
>>> really don't like is the poor quality it renders for our translation.
>>> Kind regards
>>> Sophie
>>>  Message original 
>>> Sujet: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n
>>> Date : Mon, 22 Jul 2013 21:39:25 +0200
>>> De : Christian Lohmaier 
>>> Pour : Sophie 
>>> Copie à : libreoffice-dev 
>>>
>>> Hi Sophie, *,
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 4:47 PM, Sophie  wrote:


 I've seen this patch
 https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/4994

 correcting this issue for French
 https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67093

 But much more locale than French seems to be affected from the tests made
 by
 the FR team (PT, RU, IT, SP, CN...)
>>>
>>>
>>> I did some grepping and applied some old translations from the time of
>>> the 4.1 branch where the translations did differ between the two.
>>>
>>> (13 languages) - but still 23 remain with the problem.
>>>
 The issue here is that data are lost because the style structure is
 modified.
 Has it been modified also for the other languages, or should I send a head
 up on the l10n list?
>>>
>>>
>>> after the fix for french and https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/5038/
>>> , the following languages still have the problem:
>>>
>>> egrep -A3 "(STR_POOLCOLL_HEADLINE_BASE|STR_POOLCOLL_DOC_TITEL)"
>>> */sw/source/ui/utlui.po |grep msgstr | uniq -d
>>> be/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Загаловак"
>>> bn-IN/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "শিরোনাম"
>>> bn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "শিরোনাম"
>>> bo/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ཁ་བྱང་།"
>>> bs/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Naslov"
>>> hi/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षक"
>>> hr/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Naslov"
>>> id/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Judul"
>>> kok/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "मथळो"
>>> ko/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "제목"
>>> mai/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षक"
>>> mni/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "মিংথোল"
>>> mn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Гарчиг"
>>> my/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ခေါင်းစဉ်"
>>> ne/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षक"
>>> nn/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Overskrift"
>>> oc/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Títol"
>>> om/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Mataduree"
>>> or/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ଶୀର୍ଷକ"
>>> sa-IN/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "शीर्षकः"
>>> sid/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Umo"
>>> tg/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Сарлавҳа"
>>> ug/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "ماۋزۇ"
>>>
>>> kl and ky don't have a translation. So that leaves 23 languages where
>>> the strings are the same.
>>>
>>> List of languages:
>>>
>>> be bn-IN bn bo bs hi hr id kok ko mai mni mn my ne nn oc om or sa-IN sid tg
>>> ug
>>>
>>> ciao
>>> Christian
>>>
>>>
>>>
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Tom Davies]

Hi ~:)
Errr, not sure if this is relevant but the Docs Team have talked about getting 
rid of all their non-standard 'newly' named styles and get right back down to 
just using the defaults.  The 'new' ones have names such as "ooo-heading1" so 
you can see why i'm being a bit sarcastic about the word "new"!  However their 
team is not large enough to do more than just work through the official user 
guides so i don't see anything that radical happening any time soon.
Regards from 
Tom :)  





>
> From: Yury Tarasievich 
>To: l10n@global.libreoffice.org 
>Sent: Tuesday, 23 July 2013, 11:25
>Subject: Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and 
>Header in various l10n
> 
>
>Actually, I mean changing both:
>1) Heading -> Heading Base Style
>2) Title -> Document title
>
>And yes, other root (not-for-end-user) styles 
>might be changed on the lines of (1), too. 
>Wouldn't hurt, would reduce confusion. However, 
>such change would quite an undertaking, as the 
>basic set of stylenames is hardcoded in source. 
>I don't see it happening...
>
>-Yury
>
>On 07/23/2013 12:54 PM, Niklas Johansson wrote:
>> Do you mean changing Heading to Heading Base Style?
>> The style thats called Title is not the base
>> style of the headings, it's rather the
>> document/book title.
>> Since there are other styles based on Heading
>> could we run into trouble if we change the name?
>>
>> If we change Heading to Heading Base Style then
>> what about other styles that serve as "base
>> styles"?
>> For example: Index, Caption, List.
>> Other base styles that is used more as a normal
>> styles includes Text body, Table Contents.
>>
>> Should it be a question for UX-advise?
>>
>> /Niklas
>>
>> Yury Tarasievich skrev 2013-07-23 11:32:
>>> Or, even better (?), rename it to the tune of
>>> "Heading Base Style".
>>>
>>> -Yury
>>>
>>> On 07/23/2013 12:11 PM, Niklas Johansson wrote:
 Hi

 For future versions of LibreOffice wouldn't it
 be a good idea to change the English string from
 Title to Main Title? Or is it wrong to call it
>>> ...
>>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Yury Tarasievich]

Actually, I mean changing both:
1) Heading -> Heading Base Style
2) Title -> Document title

And yes, other root (not-for-end-user) styles 
might be changed on the lines of (1), too. 
Wouldn't hurt, would reduce confusion. However, 
such change would quite an undertaking, as the 
basic set of stylenames is hardcoded in source. 
I don't see it happening...


-Yury

On 07/23/2013 12:54 PM, Niklas Johansson wrote:

Do you mean changing Heading to Heading Base Style?
The style thats called Title is not the base
style of the headings, it's rather the
document/book title.
Since there are other styles based on Heading
could we run into trouble if we change the name?

If we change Heading to Heading Base Style then
what about other styles that serve as "base
styles"?
For example: Index, Caption, List.
Other base styles that is used more as a normal
styles includes Text body, Table Contents.

Should it be a question for UX-advise?

/Niklas

Yury Tarasievich skrev 2013-07-23 11:32:

Or, even better (?), rename it to the tune of
"Heading Base Style".

-Yury

On 07/23/2013 12:11 PM, Niklas Johansson wrote:

Hi

For future versions of LibreOffice wouldn't it
be a good idea to change the English string from
Title to Main Title? Or is it wrong to call it

...






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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Niklas Johansson]

Do you mean changing Heading to Heading Base Style?
The style thats called Title is not the base style of the headings, it's 
rather the document/book title.
Since there are other styles based on Heading could we run into trouble 
if we change the name?


If we change Heading to Heading Base Style then what about other styles 
that serve as "base styles"?

For example: Index, Caption, List.
Other base styles that is used more as a normal styles includes Text 
body, Table Contents.


Should it be a question for UX-advise?

/Niklas

Yury Tarasievich skrev 2013-07-23 11:32:

Or, even better (?), rename it to the tune of "Heading Base Style".

-Yury

On 07/23/2013 12:11 PM, Niklas Johansson wrote:

Hi

For future versions of LibreOffice wouldn't it
be a good idea to change the English string from
Title to Main Title? Or is it wrong to call it

...




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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Yury Tarasievich]

Or, even better (?), rename it to the tune of 
"Heading Base Style".


-Yury

On 07/23/2013 12:11 PM, Niklas Johansson wrote:

Hi

For future versions of LibreOffice wouldn't it
be a good idea to change the English string from
Title to Main Title? Or is it wrong to call it

...

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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Niklas Johansson]

Hi

For future versions of LibreOffice wouldn't it be a good idea to change 
the English string from Title to Main Title? Or is it wrong to call it 
Main Title in English?


The string Title is used a lot in the UI and at it seems that other 
languages than Swedish has the problem that we need to translate the 
word differently in different places.


If the string was called Main Title this problem would not have crept in 
(at least not in my language).


It's probably a bit late to change it for 4.1 but does anybody see a 
reason not to change it for 4.2?


/Niklas

PS. I'm sorry for sending this twice to you Sophie, pressed the wrong 
button and sent it directly to you before. :(



Sophie skrev 2013-07-22 22:50:

Hi Mihovil,
Le 22/07/2013 22:40, Mihovil Stanic a écrit :

Read whole bug report and still not sure what should I do here.
Heading = Naslov
Title = Naslov


You must keep the previous translation for Heading (4.0 and 4.1beta1 
was ok) and find another one for Title. For French, we have moved to 
[Main Title] to differentiate it from [Heading].


So both words translate same in croatian and I guess that is part of
problem??


yes, for all of us
I can try to change translation on one of those strings but it will 
look

bad in UI.


The problem is that it will corrupt the styles in the document and 
user may lose some data.


Even if I change it, RC3 is out and 4.1 full will probably be released
from RC3 so translations won't be picked up at all until 4.1.1 RC1.


Yes, as I said, I'm not happy with that.
Cheers
Sophie










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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Mihovil Stanic]

Kruno had better suggestion:
"Header style" insted of Header, so insted of Naslov, now it's "Stil 
naslova" which isn't incorrect and will not confuse users.


Best regards,
Mihovil

Dana 23.7.2013. 10:05, Krunoslav Šebetić je napisao:

On 07/23/2013 07:58 AM, Christian Lohmaier wrote:

Hi *,

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 7:52 AM, Mihovil Stanic
 wrote:
Changed Heading from "Naslov" to "Glavni naslov" and marked it fuzzy 
so I

know to return it back when this gets fixed.
Title keept old translation "Naslov".

FYI: in an old copy of the translation hr used
hr/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Zaglavlje"
hr/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Naslov"
Well now we have "Zaglavlje" for "Header", it's not a syle and maybe 
it can be reused for styles to but  we try to be consistent in 
terminology, I like Mihovil's solution more. Think that "Zaglavlje" is 
not a way to go.


Kruno




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Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Fwd: Re: issue 67093: mix between Title and Header in various l10n

[Krunoslav Šebetić]

On 07/23/2013 07:58 AM, Christian Lohmaier wrote:

Hi *,

On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 7:52 AM, Mihovil Stanic
 wrote:

Changed Heading from "Naslov" to "Glavni naslov" and marked it fuzzy so I
know to return it back when this gets fixed.
Title keept old translation "Naslov".

FYI: in an old copy of the translation hr used
hr/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Zaglavlje"
hr/sw/source/ui/utlui.po-msgstr "Naslov"
Well now we have "Zaglavlje" for "Header", it's not a syle and maybe it 
can be reused for styles to but  we try to be consistent in terminology, 
I like Mihovil's solution more. Think that "Zaglavlje" is not a way to go.


Kruno

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