Re: Lute manuscript in Montreal

[Daniel F Heiman]

The description in Coelho's catalog is as follows:

25.  Montréal, Bibliothèque du Conservatoire de Musique, Ms without
shelfmark
  119 pages, containing 99 pieces in Italian tablature for 8-course
lute (including two duets) and 13 canzonette and napolitane for lute and
voice.  Blank staves: 38, 64, 115v-116v. Size 25x18.5cm (upright format).
At least three hands, possibly a fourth (f. 83) copied the manuscript. 
The foliation seems original.  Two paper types:  ff. 77-69 are printed
with eight tablature staves, while the rest of the book contains seven. 
Presently the manuscript contains on its back the inscription,
"Napolitana Intavolatura di liuto:  Orazio Vecchi e Discepoli" in a
modern hand The manuscript is possibly of Lombard (Bergamask?)
provenance and can be dated to the years 1595-1610.

 The contents of Montréal were carefully prepared and arranged.  Most
of the passamezzi contain two or three partite, and usually conclude with
a saltarello or gagliarda on the same thematic material.  Ballo-Gagliarda
and Paganina-Saltarello pairs also appear.  The music itself consists for
the most part of well-written works intended for the competent player. 
Beginning with f. 64, however, there appears a section of works –possibly
in a different hand or else a variant of the first scribe – that contains
a more technically difficult and sophisticated repertory than appears
earlier in the source.  This may represent a later chronological layer
for this section.  In fact, the beginning of the Gag[liar]da (no. 63), a
work with many version and attributions, is also concordant to Gagliarda
VI from Piccinini (1623), p. 61.

Composers:  Bastiano, Bocquet, Caroso, Cavaccio, Crecquillon, Equitus
Romani, Lasso, Mascara, Mertel, Molinaro(?), Alessandro Piccinini,
Regnart, Rore, S.to [Santino?], Terzi, Vecchi.
===
Just from a quick read through the inventory, it looks like dances make
up about three-quarters of the pieces in the MS.  There are a few
Canzonas, Ricercare and Toccate.

Daniel Heiman

On 26 Jan 2005 20:53 GMT [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(=?ISO-8859-1?b?IkpvYWNoaW0gTPxkdGtlIg==?=) writes:
> Dear Bruno,
> 
> the manuscript has been catalogued in Victor Coelho's The manuscript 
> sources of seventeenth-century italian lute music, NY & London 1995. 
> Unfortunately I have no copy of this book at hand momentarily ... 
> but I think I remember the book had got a shelf mark recently ... 
> 
> Joachim 
> 
> "Bruno et Valérie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
> >Joachim Lüdtke wrote:
> >
> >>Dear collected wisdom,
> >>
> >>there is an italian lute manuscript in Montreal, which a few years 
> ago had no shelf number or signature. Something in the back of my 
> head keeps saying that it has got one in recent times but I can't 
> buttonhole that voice and tell it that it either has to stay quiet 
> or inform me better.
> >>
> >>So: does anyone know if this manuscript (Bibliothèque du 
> Conservatoire du Musique) has a shelf number today?
> >>
> >>Yours sincerely,
> >>
> >>Joachim
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  
> >>
> >Well, I live in Montreal and have never heard of itand I've 
> been 
> >playing lute for 25 years...have to look into this
> >
> >
> >Bruno
> >
> >Montreal
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr. Joachim Luedtke
> Frühlingsstraße 9a
> D - 93164 Laaber
> Tlf.: ++49 / +9498 / 905 188
> Mobil: 0172 / 275 49 48
> Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 
--

Re: Arto: Carbon fiber strings

[rosinfiorini]

but what do you wish then? short, percussion-like, marimba-like bass? that's 
pretty
easy to have. longer basses are sweet--look how much sweeter a baroque lute
sounds compared to the renaissance lute. or how sweeter a 65 cm lute sounds
compared to the 59 cm one.
about starting to mention wound basses:
In the same time, who said the bass have to be wound? Long gut or artificial gut
is what anyone would preffer. No need to reflect on the funny tember wound 
strings.
They sound good enough on a short v-lenght renaissance lute or on student lute 
for
lenght of vibration, but that's for learning purposes.
about the "grand piano" with sustain pedal pressed sound: 
hehe, play your lute softly. there are places when the bass 
should be expressive, but that's not Always (as you may know:)
So, no one is arguing "gut or wound". You started to talk about wound.
I've never heard about archilute with wound basses (forgive my ignorance if
it is a common practice). If such thing exists, then, man, you will have a 
"grand piano" sound!!lol




> Dear lutenists
> 
> > i'm not talking about "the beauty of the bass" (whatever that means),=20
> > what i talk about is the fact that most of us, lute players, preffer
> > a LONGER VIBRATING TONE. 
> 
> I strongly doubt that! Many, perhaps most of us(?), used some time ago
> the wound pyramid basses. Those modern guitar style strings have very
> long vibrating tone. And most of us(?) wanted to get rid of long
> vibrating tones, which made an archlute or theorbo sound like a grand
> piano played with pedal down...
> 
> Gut and its modern imitators behave much better.
> 
> Arto
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
--

Faites un voeu et puis Voila ! www.voila.fr 


--

Re: Carbon fiber strings

[Roman Turovsky]

A new axe of yours?
RT
> 
> A week ago, I had a newly built swan-neck (after Martin Hoffmann)



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Re: Carbon fiber strings

[Roman Turovsky]

I stand corrected, even if I didn't include long lutes into consideration.
RT
__
Roman M. Turovsky
http://polyhymnion.org/swv
> 
> U...
> 
> I use it for the fourteenth course of my theorbo.  Gut was a bit too muddy
> sounding and the carbon matches the tone of the other diapasons nicely.
> 
> Steve
> 
>> For that matter carbon is NEVER Used for the bass strings anyway.
>> RT
>> 
>>> Agreed. For my purposes, tuning stability and a tone quality that's
>>> compatible
>>> with the treble strings is more of a concern than length of sustain in
>>> the
>>> bass.
>>> 
>>> Eric Hansen
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> 
>>> Dear lutenists> i'm not talking about "the beauty of the
>>> bass"
>>> (whatever that means),=20> what i talk about is the fact that most of
>>> us,
>>> lute players, preffer> a LONGER VIBRATING TONE. 
>>> 
>>> I strongly doubt that! Many, perhaps most of us(?), used some time
>>> agothe wound pyramid basses. Those modern guitar style strings have
>>> verylong vibrating tone. And most of us(?) wanted to get rid of
>>> longvibrating tones, which made an archlute or theorbo sound like a
>>> grandpiano played with pedal down...Gut and its modern
>>> imitators
>>> behave much better.ArtoTo get on or off this list
>>> see
>>> list information
>>> athttp://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html



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Re: Re: Re: Carbon fiber strings

[Edward Martin]

At 09:41 PM 1/26/2005 +, Mathias Rösel wrote:
>yes, indeed. In August I attended a recital with music by Weiss, played
>on a 13c swan-neck with endlessly vibrating wound basses. Couldn't help
>falling asleep (my way of resistance in hopeless situations of that
>kind).

Having a swan neck & stringing it in wound basses is defeating the 
purpose.  The reason for a swan neck is to add length to a bass string to 
give it more clarity (that is, a GUT bass string).  When one adds the 
length & uses wound strings, it makes for LONG sustains, which are not very 
musical.  Sort of like playing the piano with the sustain pedal on all the 
time.  Some like this effect, but it is most unpleasant, in my opinion.

>A week ago, I had a newly built swan-neck (after Martin Hoffmann)
>in my hands that was strung with nylgut all over, i. e. down to the 13th
>course. The maker was afraid it might *plopp* too much with the very
>tone fading too soon. But I enjoyed it very much. It was strong and
>clear and had an percussive element that considerably contributed to the
>rhythmical structure of the music. --
>Cheers,

Congratulations on the new lute.  I encourage you to try gut basses, as 
they will be warmer and clearer in the sound.  After those basses are on 
for a month or 2, the tuning issue is mostly resolved.

Ed


>Mathias



Edward Martin
2817 East 2nd Street
Duluth, Minnesota  55812
e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
voice:  (218) 728-1202






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Re: Carbon fiber strings

[Steve Amazeen]

U...

I use it for the fourteenth course of my theorbo.  Gut was a bit too muddy 
sounding and the carbon matches the tone of the other diapasons nicely.

Steve
- Original Message - 
From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; 
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: Carbon fiber strings


> For that matter carbon is NEVER Used for the bass strings anyway.
> RT
> -- 
> http://polyhymnion.org/torban
>
>
>> Agreed. For my purposes, tuning stability and a tone quality that's 
>> compatible
>> with the treble strings is more of a concern than length of sustain in 
>> the
>> bass.
>>
>> Eric Hansen
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --- On Wed 01/26, Arto Wikla < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
>> From: Arto Wikla [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:24:53 +0200 (EET)
>> Subject: Re: Re: Re: Carbon fiber strings
>>
>> Dear lutenists> i'm not talking about "the beauty of the 
>> bass"
>> (whatever that means),=20> what i talk about is the fact that most of 
>> us,
>> lute players, preffer> a LONGER VIBRATING TONE. 
>>
>> I strongly doubt that! Many, perhaps most of us(?), used some time
>> agothe wound pyramid basses. Those modern guitar style strings have
>> verylong vibrating tone. And most of us(?) wanted to get rid of
>> longvibrating tones, which made an archlute or theorbo sound like a
>> grandpiano played with pedal down...Gut and its modern 
>> imitators
>> behave much better.ArtoTo get on or off this list 
>> see
>> list information
>> athttp://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>> ___
>> Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
>> The most personalized portal on the Web!
>>
>>
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 

Re: Re: Re: Carbon fiber strings

[=?ISO-8859-1?b?Ik1hdGhpYXMgUvZzZWwi?=]

 "Arto Wikla"  schrieb:
>> a LONGER VIBRATING TONE. 
> 
> I strongly doubt that! Many, perhaps most of us(?), used some time ago
> the wound pyramid basses. Those modern guitar style strings have very
> long vibrating tone. And most of us(?) wanted to get rid of long
> vibrating tones, which made an archlute or theorbo sound like a grand
> piano played with pedal down...


yes, indeed. In August I attended a recital with music by Weiss, played
on a 13c swan-neck with endlessly vibrating wound basses. Couldn't help
falling asleep (my way of resistance in hopeless situations of that
kind). A week ago, I had a newly built swan-neck (after Martin Hoffmann)
in my hands that was strung with nylgut all over, i. e. down to the 13th
course. The maker was afraid it might *plopp* too much with the very
tone fading too soon. But I enjoyed it very much. It was strong and
clear and had an percussive element that considerably contributed to the
rhythmical structure of the music. -- 
Cheers,

Mathias
--

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Re: Lute manuscript in Montreal

[=?ISO-8859-1?b?IkpvYWNoaW0gTPxkdGtlIg==?=]

Dear Bruno,

the manuscript has been catalogued in Victor Coelho's The manuscript sources of 
seventeenth-century italian lute music, NY & London 1995. Unfortunately I have 
no copy of this book at hand momentarily ... but I think I remember the book 
had got a shelf mark recently ... 

Joachim 

"Bruno et Valérie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
>Joachim Lüdtke wrote:
>
>>Dear collected wisdom,
>>
>>there is an italian lute manuscript in Montreal, which a few years ago had no 
>>shelf number or signature. Something in the back of my head keeps saying that 
>>it has got one in recent times but I can't buttonhole that voice and tell it 
>>that it either has to stay quiet or inform me better.
>>
>>So: does anyone know if this manuscript (Bibliothèque du Conservatoire du 
>>Musique) has a shelf number today?
>>
>>Yours sincerely,
>>
>>Joachim
>>
>>
>>
>>  
>>
>Well, I live in Montreal and have never heard of itand I've been 
>playing lute for 25 years...have to look into this
>
>
>Bruno
>
>Montreal
>


-- 



Dr. Joachim Luedtke
Frühlingsstraße 9a
D - 93164 Laaber
Tlf.: ++49 / +9498 / 905 188
Mobil: 0172 / 275 49 48
Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]





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Re: SV: Lute manuscript in Montreal

[=?ISO-8859-1?b?IkpvYWNoaW0gTPxkdGtlIg==?=]

Dear Kenneth,

thank you for this information! I have written to the slnf.

Joachim

"Kenneth Sparr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb:
>Dear Joachim,
>
>I suggest you contact Robert Derome in Montreal. You can find contact
>information at
>
>http://www.er.uqam.ca/nobel/slnf/
>
>Best wishes
>
>Kenneth Sparr
>Stromstigen 25
>S-149 51 Nynashamn
>SWEDEN
>
>Telephone: +46-852015561
>www.tabulatura.com
>e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>-Ursprungligt meddelande-
>Från: "Joachim Lüdtke" [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>Skickat: den 25 januari 2005 21:37
>Till: lute-list (Renaissance)
>Ämne: Lute manuscript in Montreal
>
>Dear collected wisdom,
>
>there is an italian lute manuscript in Montreal, which a few years ago had
>no shelf number or signature. Something in the back of my head keeps saying
>that it has got one in recent times but I can't buttonhole that voice and
>tell it that it either has to stay quiet or inform me better.
>
>So: does anyone know if this manuscript (Bibliothèque du Conservatoire du
>Musique) has a shelf number today?
>
>Yours sincerely,
>
>Joachim
>
>
>
>-- 
>
>
>
>Dr. Joachim Luedtke
>Frühlingsstraße 9a
>D - 93164 Laaber
>Tlf.: ++49 / +9498 / 905 188
>Mobil: 0172 / 275 49 48
>Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>


-- 



Dr. Joachim Luedtke
Frühlingsstraße 9a
D - 93164 Laaber
Tlf.: ++49 / +9498 / 905 188
Mobil: 0172 / 275 49 48
Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Carbon fiber strings

[Arto Wikla]

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005, Roman Turovsky wrote:

> For that matter carbon is NEVER Used for the bass strings anyway.

Never say never! For years I have used "carbon" strings very successfully 
in my French theorbo made by S. Barber. Works very well also for the bass 
strings.

Arto



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Re: Carbon fiber strings

[Roman Turovsky]

For that matter carbon is NEVER Used for the bass strings anyway.
RT
-- 
http://polyhymnion.org/torban

 
> Agreed. For my purposes, tuning stability and a tone quality that's compatible
> with the treble strings is more of a concern than length of sustain in the
> bass.
> 
> Eric Hansen
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- On Wed 01/26, Arto Wikla < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
> From: Arto Wikla [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:24:53 +0200 (EET)
> Subject: Re: Re: Re: Carbon fiber strings
> 
> Dear lutenists> i'm not talking about "the beauty of the bass"
> (whatever that means),=20> what i talk about is the fact that most of us,
> lute players, preffer> a LONGER VIBRATING TONE. 
> 
> I strongly doubt that! Many, perhaps most of us(?), used some time
> agothe wound pyramid basses. Those modern guitar style strings have
> verylong vibrating tone. And most of us(?) wanted to get rid of
> longvibrating tones, which made an archlute or theorbo sound like a
> grandpiano played with pedal down...Gut and its modern imitators
> behave much better.ArtoTo get on or off this list see
> list information 
> athttp://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> ___
> Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
> The most personalized portal on the Web!
> 
> 



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Re: Re: Re: Carbon fiber strings

[Eric Hansen]

Agreed. For my purposes, tuning stability and a tone quality that's compatible 
with the treble strings is more of a concern than length of sustain in the bass.

Eric Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]




 --- On Wed 01/26, Arto Wikla < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
From: Arto Wikla [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:24:53 +0200 (EET)
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Carbon fiber strings

Dear lutenists> i'm not talking about "the beauty of the bass" 
(whatever that means),=20> what i talk about is the fact that most of us, 
lute players, preffer> a LONGER VIBRATING TONE. 

I strongly doubt that! Many, perhaps most of us(?), used some time 
agothe wound pyramid basses. Those modern guitar style strings have 
verylong vibrating tone. And most of us(?) wanted to get rid of 
longvibrating tones, which made an archlute or theorbo sound like a 
grandpiano played with pedal down...Gut and its modern imitators 
behave much better.ArtoTo get on or off this list see 
list information 
athttp://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

___
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!

Re: Re: Re: Carbon fiber strings

[Tony Chalkley]

I don't block, but verbal diarrhoea and/or psychomotor problems with the 
keyboard (and giggles) could push me to it!
- Original Message - 
From: "Gernot Hilger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Carbon fiber strings


> Hi,
> you wouldn't believe how low my lutenet traffic is since I recently 
> blocked two
> posters :-)
> Email filters are wonderful
> Best wishes
> g
>
>>rosinfiorini wrote:
>
>> >Jon wrote:
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> 

Re: Re: Re: Carbon fiber strings

[Arto Wikla]

Dear lutenists

> i'm not talking about "the beauty of the bass" (whatever that means),=20
> what i talk about is the fact that most of us, lute players, preffer
> a LONGER VIBRATING TONE. 

I strongly doubt that! Many, perhaps most of us(?), used some time ago
the wound pyramid basses. Those modern guitar style strings have very
long vibrating tone. And most of us(?) wanted to get rid of long
vibrating tones, which made an archlute or theorbo sound like a grand
piano played with pedal down...

Gut and its modern imitators behave much better.

Arto



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Re: Re: Re: Carbon fiber strings

[Gernot Hilger]

Hi,
you wouldn't believe how low my lutenet traffic is since I recently blocked two
posters :-)
Email filters are wonderful
Best wishes
g

>rosinfiorini wrote:

> >Jon wrote:



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Re: Re: Carbon fiber strings

[carlos flores]

>Jon wrote:
>I can agree with the beauty of the bass<
***
i'm not talking about "the beauty of the bass" (whatever that means),
what i talk about is the fact that most of us, lute players, preffer
a LONGER VIBRATING TONE. I've taken time to read some
of your lenghtly writings (hard to find exactly what your question is
each time, they say--hehe) and i've never seen this one concept being
mentioned. So i though i'd give you my attention and mention something
"new" for your 'explorations'. Or have you passed the age when the last 
openness
for new things is sealed:))) (hope not!)
So, may-be, amongst all of your empirical mesurements of tension, stress, 
pitch,
vibrating lenght, diameter, etc.., time lenght of the vibrating tone can 
find place too
if you wish..
*

>Jon wrote:
>and I'm not sure how R. got the
>impression that I was suggesting a certain pitch for a certain guage (and
>I'm not sure what that means).<
***
i thought that's what you talk about all the time: the corelations, 
proportions, dependencies, etc,
between gauges, pitches, vibrating lenghts, densities etc. What i meant is 
that besides
all these notions, the notion/exploration of Time Lenght of Vibration can be
interesting to be studied too--together with it's corelations with the other 
notions.
*
>Jon wrote:
>One can go as long as one wants on fretted
>courses, just make a longer neck and more frets<
***
no. not for the renaissance lute repertoire at least. what do you play J?
*

>Jon wrote:
>and if your arm is too
>short get an assistant to do the fretting <
***
May-be my hand's lenght is just like you 'sight': handsome for a hand but 
short
for a sight. Hey Jon, do you have you thick glasses somewhere there within
a...hand's reach? (hahaha!!!) Or may-be you attach them to your cardigan's 
button
with an appropriate gauge/density/lenght string to pull them when they are 
too far.
Come on Jon, don't be a girlie:) You want my measurements and picture? I 
preffer only female girls though:Þ
*
take care!

_
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Re: Re: Re: Carbon fiber strings

[rosinfiorini]

>Jon wrote:
>I can agree with the beauty of the bass<
i'm not talking about "the beauty of the bass" (whatever that means),=20
what i talk about is the fact that most of us, lute players, preffer
a LONGER VIBRATING TONE. I've taken time to read some
of your lenghtly writings (hard to find exactly what your question is=20
each time, they say--hehe) and i've never seen this one concept being
mentioned. So i though i'd give you my attention and mention something=20
"new" for your 'explorations'. Or have you passed the age when the last ope=
nness
for new things is sealed:))) (hope not!)
So, may-be, amongst all of your empirical mesurements of tension, stress, p=
itch,
vibrating lenght, diameter, etc.., time lenght of the vibrating tone can fi=
nd place too
if you wish..=20

>Jon wrote:
>and I'm not sure how R. got the
>impression that I was suggesting a certain pitch for a certain guage (and
>I'm not sure what that means).<
i thought that's what you talk about all the time: the corelations, proport=
ions, dependencies, etc,
between gauges, pitches, vibrating lenghts, densities etc. What i meant is =
that besides
all these notions, the notion/exploration of Time Lenght of Vibration can b=
e=20
interesting to be studied too--together with it's corelations with the othe=
r notions.
>Jon wrote:
>One can go as long as one wants on fretted
>courses, just make a longer neck and more frets<
no. not for the renaissance lute repertoire at least. what do you play J?

>Jon wrote:
>and if your arm is too
>short get an assistant to do the fretting < =20
May-be my hand's lenght is just like you 'sight': handsome for a hand but s=
hort
for a sight. Hey Jon, do you have you thick glasses somewhere there within
a...hand's reach? (hahaha!!!) Or may-be you attach them to your cardigan's =
button
with an appropriate gauge/density/lenght string to pull them when they are =
too far.
Come on Jon, don't be a girlie:) You want my picture? I preffer only female=
 girls though:=DE
take care!
--

Faites un voeu et puis Voila ! www.voila.fr=20


--

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Re: Panmure

[Wayne Cripps]

Hi Roland -

 Yes, it is great music, isn't it.  My collection (which is out of print
now) represents about half of that manuscript, the rest is in the flat tuning.
It is just as nice.  

 You can get a microfilm from the National Library of Scotland, George IV
Bridge, Edinburgh EH1 1EW Scotland, they may also make paper copies 
available now, or you can try an interlibrary loan search - I borrowed 
a copy from some college in California once.

 CNRS does have a book of music in the flat/sharp tunings.  Again, 
interlibrary loan is your best bet.  (Note - I just tried to 
do a web lookup of CNRS's lute music on the CNRS web site and got
nowhere, and Dartmouth has completely changed their on line catalogs
so I can't find what I am looking for there, either!)

 I intend to make a companion book, "Music in the Flat Tuning", but
it may be many years until that happens.  Probably not until I get
another lute that I can keep in the flat/sharp tuning.  I have typeset
a few pages of the flat music, but I can't fiond that, either!

Wayne

> 
> Hey Wayne!  Happy New Year!  I bought the sharp tuning book a year or more 
> ago and have finally got around to playing the pieces in it. I am having so 
> much fun that I am even playing pieces in Ren Mesangeau's CNRS in teh flat 
> tuning as well.  My 10 c. ren. lute is 65 cm so it works well, and I am 
> looking into larger string sizes for 1 and 2.  Meanwhile, I am curious about 
> the rest of Panmure 5 and how I might get a hold of it, and other ms. or 
> publications of "transitional" tunings.  It appears to my surprise, that 
> there is not a microfilm or a minkoff reprint avalable of the ballard books 
> of 1631 and 1638!  I would appreciate your thoughts on the availability of 
> this material.  Please feel free to post this for all to consider, if you 
> wish.   Regards, Roland.  
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

Re: Panmure

[Tony Chalkley]

I'd go with that too.

TC

- Original Message - 
From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Alain Veylit" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "LUTE-LIST" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 12:21 AM
Subject: Re: Panmure


>I didn't see the right half. Looks like a misspelled VENTURE.
> RT
>> respected
>> affected
>> RT
>> __
>> Roman M. Turovsky
>> http://polyhymnion.org/swv
>>
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>> I transcribed a song by Campion but hit a snag: what is the last word of
>>> the song?
>>> see: http://cbsr26.ucr.edu/wlkfiles/Publications/Campion_14.html
>>> Alain
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>
>
>
>
> 

Re: Re: Carbon fiber strings

[Jon Murphy]

I can agree with the beauty of the bass, and I'm not sure how R. got the
impression that I was suggesting a certain pitch for a certain guage (and
I'm not sure what that means). One can go as long as one wants on fretted
courses, just make a longer neck and more frets - and if your arm is too
short get an assistant to do the fretting . My point was that any
instrument with a fixed vibrating length has a limit on the range of
pitches, and therefore courses, using string guages within reason. A bass
too tight has a tight sound, a bass too loose has no sound.

I have listened to the singing of strings a half inch thick and sixty feet
long, strummed by the wind. The true logic is that each "guage" has a length
and tension combination that will produce a musical sound. And that musical
sound is affected by where in the range the combination is. At the lower end
of the range the sound will be fuller, with more overtones, and at the upper
end a bit brighter.

Theer is a music in many things, the "thrumming" of the standing rigging in
a high wind playing off the almost random percussion of the loose halyards
snapping against the mast makes music to a sailor's ears.

Best, Jon

- Original Message - 
From: "rosinfiorini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Carbon fiber strings


> Jon wrote:
> >But it is only important on a lute as
> > to the chaterelle, and the highest pitch one wants to attain (and for
many
> > coursed lutes whether the bass courses can make a musical sound without
the
> > extension of the VL, as in the arch lutes and theorbos).
> 
> for many lute players the extension of the vibrating lenght (VL) is not a
simple dry, technical means to provide certain pitch for certain gauge, etc.
It is the means to have a LONGER VIBRATING TONE. You can't go too long on
fretted courses but why not on the basses--this is the true logic behind
very long basses. Longer vibrating bass is sweet and dull, drum-like,
quickly dying bass string of short lenght is better for "marimba" loving
sound(lol)
>
>
>
>
>
> Craig,
> >
> > Arto has given you a number I can't quarrel with for the carbon fibers
for
> > mass, but tensile strength is another matter (and for those who have
> > corrected me for using that term, it may be inexact as one is dealing
with
> > stress, but it is a usable term).
> >
> > The mass is a cubic measure (as Arto gave it), after all there can be no
> > mass in a pure plane any more than there is length in a point or width
in a
> > line. In our three dimensional world one needs all three dimensions to
make
> > up mass (I won't speak for the "Flatlanders", nor for extradimensional
> > beings - just for our particular space).
> >
> > But the strength, in the sense of breaking stress, is a square measure.
> > Within limits the length makes no difference, only the stress resistance
of
> > the material (in bridge cables one has to add the weight of the cable
itself
> > to the load it bears, and other such confusions - and with strings one
has
> > to consider the imperfections that multiply the longer the string).
> >
> > Tensile strength is of interest to lutenists (and other string players)
> > because of the question of "breaking pitch", which tends to be the same
no
> > matter the gauge of the string for a given length. The string of greater
> > mass needs a higher tension (stress) to reach a pitch, but it also has
> > greater strength due to the thicker cross section. It is not intuitive
that
> > the "breaking pitch" should always be the same for a given material -
the
> > relationships might not be linear - but it seems they are.
Experimentation
> > seems to have shown that.
> >
> > I hope to soon be able to have some empirical data on the topic, but the
> > strings I've got tensile strength figures for seem to react as predicted
for
> > breaking pitch when put to the test. But it is only important on a lute
as
> > to the chaterelle, and the highest pitch one wants to attain (and for
many
> > coursed lutes whether the bass courses can make a musical sound without
the
> > extension of the VL, as in the arch lutes and theorbos).
> >
> > Best, Jon
> >
> >
> >
> > - Original Message - 
> > From: "Craig Robert Pierpont"
> > To: "Lute List"
> > Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 6:27 PM
> > Subject: Carbon fiber strings
> >
> >
> > > Does anybody have the mass and tensile strength values for carbon
fiber
> > strings. (Saverez strings claim not to be carbon fiber so those numbers
> > won't necessarily work.)
> > > Thanks,
> > > Craig
> > >
> > > __
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > > --
> > >
> > > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> --
>
> Faites un