[LUTE] Re: 7 course English pieces

[Omer Katzir]

My dear friend, it actually seems that DR, and other "friends" missed  
the whole point. I never asked for someone to look pieces for me, I  
only asked for recommendation for pieces that can be found in Serge's  
and Wayne's websites.


Unfortunately to me, I don't have libraries to get information from,  
the nearest library with early music is in Italy (maybe I can find  
something in Egypt or Turkey), my main source of information is my  
teacher, but he can't keep every piece of music ever written, I take  
from him almost every thing I can to study. What I can't take from  
him, I usually take from both sites, and If I can't find there, so I'm  
looking in few editions to buy, and I buy when I can.


Some folks here plays many years, and I figured they have some  
recommendation for pieces. And if someone will ask me for some six- 
course german music, I will recommend instead of attacking him.


On Feb 25, 2009, at 9:14 AM, Daniel Winheld wrote:


Sounds like somebody may be a touch spoiled or impatient here- some
of us old timers remember the days when we had to go to public
libraries and get our music by HAND COPYING IT on staff pages- 5 line
staves to which we hand ruled a 6th line if we didn't want it to be 5
line Attaignant style- from MICROFILM projections. That's how I got
my Thomas Robinson, Dowland's LoST, Le Roy's English printing,
Barley's book, Maynard's "XII Wonders of the World" and a few other
things. I still have one of these books, that I sweated over for
weeks- kind of like personal ms tabs from the real old days, before
any of us were born.

For other music, I had to learn to read lute music transcribed into
double-staff notation for a G tenor lute, not easy for a guitarist
used to "E" on a treble staff. (VALUABLE training!) I had to go out
and BUY this music as "hard copy" entities from "brick & mortar"
music stores- or mail (not "e"mail) order my music. Some of us old
farts occasionally still do this, in fact.

I got my 7 course stuff right along with the 6, 8, 9, or 10 course
music and was perfectly grateful to have it all, and sort it out.
Even when my only "lute" was a medium quality nylon string guitar.

Omer- I advise a little more patience, initiative; and better  
manners, please.


Dan


I'm looking in some few books, but thank you for being an a***


Omer, it is obvious that english is not your first language.
DR's reply was remarkably polite, if a bit abrupt.

Your counter was not only downright rude, but also inapropriate.

To my knowledge three is no index of Lute sources which lists 7c  
pieces,

much of the material published after 1500 is for either 6 or 7c
instruments.  Note that anything for a 6c instrument is playable on  
a 7c.


--




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[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre

[David Tayler]

The bocal is flared slightly at the end, so it 
could hold a reed, but it looks more like a bass recorder.
The bass and the two smaller ones form a continuo 
group that was popular in France--a sort of 
portable organ. There is a fairly extensive 
literatature for three recorder continuo.
But it is impossible to tell because the 
instrument is hidden. There are two very 
beautifully drawn scribe marks around the top, 
but these marks could be on any wind instrument.

If it is a recorder, the windway is to the back, but that is not unusual.
dt


At 02:36 PM 2/22/2009, you wrote:
The basoon first appeared about 1650. But 
obviously it could be a bass or tenor as well.

Jaroslaw


- Original Message - From: 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 8:07 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre



On Sat, Feb 21, 2009, Jaros³aw Lipski  said:


Dear Dana,
The reproduction doesn't show that detail particularly well because that
area is very dark, but as far as I can remember it from the museum, the book
stands on the table covered with some black fabric, and leaning against the
basoon


Perhaps a bit early to be called bassoon, and looks more to me like a
shalm; extended tenor or bass to judge from the crook.  Wonder what the
shalm was braced with  (I use x-legged dowels).

Its clues like this that make possible replicas of the furniture in
everyday use which is only preserved iconographically :-)

--
Dana Emery




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[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre

[Markus Lutz]

I didn't read this article also.

But there is in German a big encyclopedia by Johann Georg Krünitz from 
the end of the 18th century. It was written from 1773-1858 and it can be 
accessed online ( http://www.kruenitz1.uni-trier.de/ ). It is called 
"Oekonomische Encyklopädie oder allgemeines System der Staats- Stadt- 
Haus- und Landwirthschaft"
(something like economical encyclopedia or common system of the economy 
of state - , city-, house- and agri-culture).


He describes the making of strings very detailed (the complete article 
has more than 7000 words). The article may be very late indeed, but 
anyway interesting.


The colouring of strings is mentioned:
"Man färbt die Saiten auch blau und roth; blau, indem man sie durch eine 
kalte Brühe von Lackmus mit Potasche, roth, indem man sie durch den 
Auszug der türkischen Schminklappen und Potasche durchzieht."


Strings are colored in blue and red; blue, by drawing them through a 
cold broth of litmus with potash; red, be drawing them through the 
digestion of Turkish (?) paint cloth (?) and Potash.


I didn't find there any hint on the loading of strings, but mentions 
that some of the strings had been overspun with a false silver wire.


But there is also said, that the makers of musical strings are very 
cagey about the process of making ...


Best regards
Markus



Monica Hall schrieb:
I just wondered - do we know how readily available loaded strings were 
or how widely they were used?


There was an article in the Galpin Society Journal 2006 about Roman and 
Neapolitan gut strings by Patrizio Barbieri and apparently he suggests 
that there is no historical evidence for loaded strings and that 
colouring them may have been a way of hiding blemishes.   I haven't 
actually read the whole article yet - only a summary.   I wondered 
whether anyone else had?


Monica

- Original Message - From: "alexander" 
To: "Monica Hall" 
Cc: ; "Lutelist" 
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre


People nowadays are much more conscious of the environmental toxins. 
Plus... Imagine Aquila sells lead and-or mercury loaded strings. The 
lawyers will swarm around lute players like sharks with offers of service.


The evidence of loaded strings is based squarely on Mimmo Peruffo's 
research. His conclusions were made on the basis of paintings (showing 
smooth surface = non wound strings with a variant of red color ) and 
instrument string-hole measurements. One point being argued, however, 
was whether some of lute strings, and possibly loaded basses, were made 
of silk rather then gut. That discussion was held in FoRMHI, and 
basically died with the demise of the Fellowship itself. From the point 
of leeching the metals out, silk binds more closely with lead and 
mercury salts (as well as tin salts, customarily used to apply all the 
fancy colors to silk garbs), and might be much safer as loaded strings, 
as well. alexander


On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 17:41:33 +
"Monica Hall"  wrote:


I wouldn't claim to be an expert, but according to my medical dictionary
mercury poisoning was common in some trades in the past - in 
particular in
the preparation of felt used in hats.   That is where the expression 
"mad as

a hatter" comes from.

This may be a silly question because I have been following this thread 
very
closely but is there any evidence that strings were loaded with 
mercury or

anything else apart from the fact that some works of art show the lower
courses differently coloured?

Monica

- Original Message - From: "Martyn Hodgson" 


To: "David van Ooijen" ; "Mathias Rösel"

Cc: 
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 3:08 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre


>
>   Regarding the use of mercury (or lead) to load a gut string: if it 
> were

>   a problem wouldn't we have seen at least some contemporary reports of
>   professional lutenists with poisining symptoms - I'm not aware of 
any.

>   But perhaps the amount of mercuric compound is so relatively small
>   (unlike with the hatters who rubbed raw mercury into hats with their
>   fingers) that there's no noticeable effect. Surely a toxologist 
should

>   be able to inform us
>
>   MH
>   --- On Mon, 23/2/09, "Mathias Roesel" 
>   wrote:
>
> From: "Mathias Roesel" 
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
> To: "David van Ooijen" 
> Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Date: Monday, 23 February, 2009, 2:23 PM
> "David van Ooijen"  schrieb:
>> On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 9:26 AM, "Mathias Roesel"
>>  wrote:
>> >> rarely touch it). With later providing you play a lot, the skin
> contact is
>> >> enormous.
>> >
>> > You might consider playing with nails, then.
>>
>> On both hands?
>>
>> David
>
> No, RH, of course. It will reduce poisoning by 50%!
>
> But seriously I wonder if densifying a gut string with mercury, 
which is
> easily composed with organic materials, means that afterwards the 
string

> still is poisonous. And, no, I'm not willing 

[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre

[Jaroslaw Lipski]

What do you mean by a false silver wire? Were some more details given?
Regards
Jaroslaw


- Original Message - 
From: "Markus Lutz" 

To: "Monica Hall" 
Cc: "alexander" ; "Lutelist" 
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 10:34 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre



I didn't read this article also.

But there is in German a big encyclopedia by Johann Georg Krünitz from the 
end of the 18th century. It was written from 1773-1858 and it can be 
accessed online ( http://www.kruenitz1.uni-trier.de/ ). It is called 
"Oekonomische Encyklopädie oder allgemeines System der Staats- Stadt- 
Haus- und Landwirthschaft"
(something like economical encyclopedia or common system of the economy of 
state - , city-, house- and agri-culture).


He describes the making of strings very detailed (the complete article has 
more than 7000 words). The article may be very late indeed, but anyway 
interesting.


The colouring of strings is mentioned:
"Man färbt die Saiten auch blau und roth; blau, indem man sie durch eine 
kalte Brühe von Lackmus mit Potasche, roth, indem man sie durch den Auszug 
der türkischen Schminklappen und Potasche durchzieht."


Strings are colored in blue and red; blue, by drawing them through a cold 
broth of litmus with potash; red, be drawing them through the digestion of 
Turkish (?) paint cloth (?) and Potash.


I didn't find there any hint on the loading of strings, but mentions that 
some of the strings had been overspun with a false silver wire.


But there is also said, that the makers of musical strings are very cagey 
about the process of making ...


Best regards
Markus



Monica Hall schrieb:
I just wondered - do we know how readily available loaded strings were or 
how widely they were used?


There was an article in the Galpin Society Journal 2006 about Roman and 
Neapolitan gut strings by Patrizio Barbieri and apparently he suggests 
that there is no historical evidence for loaded strings and that 
colouring them may have been a way of hiding blemishes.   I haven't 
actually read the whole article yet - only a summary.   I wondered 
whether anyone else had?


Monica

- Original Message - From: "alexander" 
To: "Monica Hall" 
Cc: ; "Lutelist" 
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre


People nowadays are much more conscious of the environmental toxins. 
Plus... Imagine Aquila sells lead and-or mercury loaded strings. The 
lawyers will swarm around lute players like sharks with offers of 
service.


The evidence of loaded strings is based squarely on Mimmo Peruffo's 
research. His conclusions were made on the basis of paintings (showing 
smooth surface = non wound strings with a variant of red color ) and 
instrument string-hole measurements. One point being argued, however, was 
whether some of lute strings, and possibly loaded basses, were made of 
silk rather then gut. That discussion was held in FoRMHI, and basically 
died with the demise of the Fellowship itself. From the point of leeching 
the metals out, silk binds more closely with lead and mercury salts (as 
well as tin salts, customarily used to apply all the fancy colors to silk 
garbs), and might be much safer as loaded strings, as well. alexander


On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 17:41:33 +
"Monica Hall"  wrote:


I wouldn't claim to be an expert, but according to my medical dictionary
mercury poisoning was common in some trades in the past - in particular 
in
the preparation of felt used in hats.   That is where the expression 
"mad as

a hatter" comes from.

This may be a silly question because I have been following this thread 
very
closely but is there any evidence that strings were loaded with mercury 
or

anything else apart from the fact that some works of art show the lower
courses differently coloured?

Monica

- Original Message - From: "Martyn Hodgson" 


To: "David van Ooijen" ; "Mathias Rösel"

Cc: 
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 3:08 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre


>
>   Regarding the use of mercury (or lead) to load a gut string: if it 
> were
>   a problem wouldn't we have seen at least some contemporary reports 
> of

>   professional lutenists with poisining symptoms - I'm not aware of
any.
>   But perhaps the amount of mercuric compound is so relatively small
>   (unlike with the hatters who rubbed raw mercury into hats with their
>   fingers) that there's no noticeable effect. Surely a toxologist
should
>   be able to inform us
>
>   MH
>   --- On Mon, 23/2/09, "Mathias Roesel" 
>   wrote:
>
> From: "Mathias Roesel" 
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
> To: "David van Ooijen" 
> Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Date: Monday, 23 February, 2009, 2:23 PM
> "David van Ooijen"  schrieb:
>> On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 9:26 AM, "Mathias Roesel"
>>  wrote:
>> >> rarely touch it). With later providing you play a lot, the skin
> contact is
>> >> enormous.
>> >
>> > You might consider playing with nails, then.
>>
>> On both h

[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre

[Markus Lutz]

In the article "Saiten" there are no more details on this. But as you 
can search the whole text I found that this false (unecht or "unächt" 
silver wire is called "lionischer Draht" and only seems to be like real 
silver or gold wire, but is made of copper, brass (German Messing) and 
tombac (Krünitz: Domback) and other false gold and silver.


Best regards
Markus

Jaroslaw Lipski schrieb:

What do you mean by a false silver wire? Were some more details given?
Regards
Jaroslaw


- Original Message - From: "Markus Lutz" 
To: "Monica Hall" 
Cc: "alexander" ; "Lutelist" 
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 10:34 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre



I didn't read this article also.

But there is in German a big encyclopedia by Johann Georg Krünitz from 
the end of the 18th century. It was written from 1773-1858 and it can 
be accessed online ( http://www.kruenitz1.uni-trier.de/ ). It is 
called "Oekonomische Encyklopädie oder allgemeines System der Staats- 
Stadt- Haus- und Landwirthschaft"
(something like economical encyclopedia or common system of the 
economy of state - , city-, house- and agri-culture).


He describes the making of strings very detailed (the complete article 
has more than 7000 words). The article may be very late indeed, but 
anyway interesting.


The colouring of strings is mentioned:
"Man färbt die Saiten auch blau und roth; blau, indem man sie durch 
eine kalte Brühe von Lackmus mit Potasche, roth, indem man sie durch 
den Auszug der türkischen Schminklappen und Potasche durchzieht."


Strings are colored in blue and red; blue, by drawing them through a 
cold broth of litmus with potash; red, be drawing them through the 
digestion of Turkish (?) paint cloth (?) and Potash.


I didn't find there any hint on the loading of strings, but mentions 
that some of the strings had been overspun with a false silver wire.


But there is also said, that the makers of musical strings are very 
cagey about the process of making ...


Best regards
Markus



Monica Hall schrieb:
I just wondered - do we know how readily available loaded strings 
were or how widely they were used?


There was an article in the Galpin Society Journal 2006 about Roman 
and Neapolitan gut strings by Patrizio Barbieri and apparently he 
suggests that there is no historical evidence for loaded strings and 
that colouring them may have been a way of hiding blemishes.   I 
haven't actually read the whole article yet - only a summary.   I 
wondered whether anyone else had?


Monica

- Original Message - From: "alexander" 
To: "Monica Hall" 
Cc: ; "Lutelist" 
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre


People nowadays are much more conscious of the environmental toxins. 
Plus... Imagine Aquila sells lead and-or mercury loaded strings. The 
lawyers will swarm around lute players like sharks with offers of 
service.


The evidence of loaded strings is based squarely on Mimmo Peruffo's 
research. His conclusions were made on the basis of paintings 
(showing smooth surface = non wound strings with a variant of red 
color ) and instrument string-hole measurements. One point being 
argued, however, was whether some of lute strings, and possibly 
loaded basses, were made of silk rather then gut. That discussion was 
held in FoRMHI, and basically died with the demise of the Fellowship 
itself. From the point of leeching the metals out, silk binds more 
closely with lead and mercury salts (as well as tin salts, 
customarily used to apply all the fancy colors to silk garbs), and 
might be much safer as loaded strings, as well. alexander


On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 17:41:33 +
"Monica Hall"  wrote:

I wouldn't claim to be an expert, but according to my medical 
dictionary
mercury poisoning was common in some trades in the past - in 
particular in
the preparation of felt used in hats.   That is where the expression 
"mad as

a hatter" comes from.

This may be a silly question because I have been following this 
thread very
closely but is there any evidence that strings were loaded with 
mercury or

anything else apart from the fact that some works of art show the lower
courses differently coloured?

Monica

- Original Message - From: "Martyn Hodgson" 


To: "David van Ooijen" ; "Mathias Rösel"

Cc: 
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 3:08 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre


>
>   Regarding the use of mercury (or lead) to load a gut string: if 
it > were
>   a problem wouldn't we have seen at least some contemporary 
reports > of

>   professional lutenists with poisining symptoms - I'm not aware of
any.
>   But perhaps the amount of mercuric compound is so relatively small
>   (unlike with the hatters who rubbed raw mercury into hats with 
their

>   fingers) that there's no noticeable effect. Surely a toxologist
should
>   be able to inform us
>
>   MH
>   --- On Mon, 23/2/09, "Mathias Roesel" 
>   wrote:
>
> From: "Mathias Roesel" 
> Subject: [LUTE] R

[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre [loaded?]

[Anthony Hind]

Dear Jaroslaw and All
>If they were neither loaded nor wound than they must  
> have been dyed. This would solve the problem because the coloration  
> differences would be of aestethic nature or maybe manufacture's  
> trade mark.


Perhaps, it is more than aesthetic, if we consider what Alexander has  
to say about his experiments with oil paint.
However, I wonder whether mild loading could not also have been used  
on other strings than basses, just to help conservation.
Mace tells us about rotten strings:
"I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish colour, very good; yet,  
but seldom; for that colour is a general sign of rottenness, or of  
the decay of the string."
This must have been common problem. Perhaps a mild loading could help  
conserve strings (admittedly, Mace does also say that red strings are  
often rotten).

It seems possible that loading of soundboards with Borax and salts  
(Strads. etc), which results in a denser better sounding table, could  
have originally been used to prevent infestation,  but it was then  
realized it improved the sound (see earlier discussion on this list).
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn10686
The only mention we have of this process from the time, does not come  
form lutemakers, but from Bernard Palissy, who spent much of his life  
trying to pierce the secrets of guilds to which he did not belong, ''  
salts improve the voice of all sorts of musical instruments".

In any case, it is not because Barbieri did not find evidence of  
loading when researching Rome string makers that no such loading took  
place.
Again Mace mentions "There is another sort of strings, which they  
call Pistoy basses, which I conceive are none other than thick Venice- 
Catlins, which are commonly dyed, with a deep dark red colour."
So perhaps, if loaded basses existed they would have been from  
Pistoia, Bologne, etc, and not Rome.

Perhaps, also if loaded strings were often red, and at the same time  
of high repute, other makers of lesser strings, might have also dyed  
theirs red.
to cash in on their prestige (i agree, I am just adding to the  
speculation).

There are however, some more convincing examples that do look like  
loading.
On the same Art site, I saw another Caravaggio painting including a  
lute with just one red string, and it was the 7th. Now this might  
well be a loaded 7c-D.
http://www.caravaggio.rai.it/eng/opere.swf?currentImage=3

That looks quite like how my 7c lute was when I just had one loaded  
string on 7-D (except of course my string was red-brown).
A pure gut 7c bass string should be so much thicker (according to  
Gamut D-7, 60mm, for 2.6Kg at 440Hz, gives 1.80mm)

However, with a painting we are never quite so sure that the artist  
is not just sketching-in the strings.
Nevertheless, there is such detail here, just see the frets, for  
example; so why would the painter have just sketched  the bass string?

Looking at my photo, it is difficult to tell whether the string is  
loaded or just coloured, unless you take account of the relative  
thinness.
http://tinyurl.com/cyvnyo

  Caravaggio with slightly different colours:
http://tinyurl.com/cbsjac

>> I don't think Mimmo's research is a just for historical  
>> correctness  (for its own sake), but to resolve the problems  
>> (ancient and modern)  inherent in using gut for each voice  
>> (Trebles, Meanes, Basses) by  specific chemical treatment,  
>> twisting, twining and loading  techniques, so as to obtain a  
>> homogenous passage accross the voices,  to avoid the inharmonicity  
>> of thicker Meane strings and lower  octaves, and to resolve the  
>> contradictiory need for short trebles and  very long basses  
>> (either by loading, or by using extensions for the  basses, or a  
>> combination of the two).
>
> And this is what I am after. I want to learn from Old Ones as much  
> as possible, but than I'd like to choose my own way.

I think historical research should be used to open up new-old  
possibilities of approaching the music, not to shut down any other  
personal investigation. It should just help us to refine our choices.

Indeed, at first, it was just a modern problem I was trying to solve  
when I adopted Venices on 5c and 4c to eliminate a break in the flow  
across the "Meanes" on my 7c lute (caused by having a Lyons on 5c and  
a simple HT on 4c). I had no idea at that point, that Dowland and  
Mace had "defined" such a category as "Meanes" for which the same  
string type should be used. Later I realized that I had just  
redisocovered it for myself.

Then on ordering an 11c lute, I was made aware of the modern severe  
'intonation" problems that I was told would not fail to occur if I  
adopted pure gut basses, on a Baroque lute. I was warned by many to  
adopt some sort of wirewound or a very very long string length (not  
really suitable for French Baroque). Gimped strings seemed the only  
way out, if I wanted to use gut, until Mimmo's loaded string

[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre

[Ron Fletcher]

During my days of historical re-enactments, we were warned of the dangers of
lead poisoning.  Most of us used pewter tankards and plates.  It was a big
no-no to polish them as this exposed more lead into the food and drink.

The drinking technique was to put both lips into the liquid, thus avoiding
direct contact from the pewter with the mouth.

Sometimes we gave demonstrations of making lead musket-balls, but only a few
at a time and handling was kept to the bare minimum.  They would be passed
around for on-lookers to examine who would then wash their hands.  Some of
us had genuine musket-balls from the period, usually kept in a pouch and
only handled with gloves.

But we digress...

Ron (UK)



 

-Original Message-
From: Jaroslaw Lipski [mailto:jaroslawlip...@wp.pl] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 6:45 PM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre

In general lead intoxication occurs after swallowing or inhalation of even
small amounts of this element, however there are reports of ocupational
intoxication as well:
The major source of lead is occupational exposure from jobs dealing with
lead and lead-based components; there is a high prevalence of lead toxicity
in the population exposed to such activities. Occupational exposure of
workers is seen in the manufacturing of lead batteries and cables, as well
as rubber and plastic products. Soldering and foundry work, such as casting,
forging, and grinding activities, are also associated with occupational
exposures. Construction workers involved in painting or paint stripping,
plumbing, welding, and cutting are also exposed to lead.
So not only inhaling or swallowing is toxic but touching, rubbing, grinding
activities as well. Even if we don't believe in skin penetration by small
particules we still have a chance to rub our nose or touch unconciously our
lips after some session of playing.
If you have any doubts just read this:
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/410113-overview
Best
Jaroslaw


- Original Message - 
From: "Alexander Batov" 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 5:35 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre


> As compared to modern day's levels of mercury contamination in the air (in

> particular in such big places like London where hundreds of thousands, if 
> not more, of strip lights and 'new generation' light bulbs are getting 
> replaced and simply chucked off in skips daily!) the effect from the 
> mercury / lead loaded strings would simply count next to nothing.
>
> By the way, I'm not a toxicologist :) So no responsibilities accepted ...
>
> AB
>
> Martyn Hodgson wrote:
>>Regarding the use of mercury (or lead) to load a gut string: if it 
>> were
>>a problem wouldn't we have seen at least some contemporary reports of
>>professional lutenists with poisining symptoms - I'm not aware of any.
>>But perhaps the amount of mercuric compound is so relatively small
>>(unlike with the hatters who rubbed raw mercury into hats with their
>>fingers) that there's no noticeable effect. Surely a toxologist should
>>be able to inform us
>>
>>MH
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre

[Taco Walstra]

On Wednesday 25 February 2009, Ron Fletcher rattled on the keyboard:
> During my days of historical re-enactments, we were warned of the dangers
> of lead poisoning.  Most of us used pewter tankards and plates.  It was a
> big no-no to polish them as this exposed more lead into the food and drink.
>
> The drinking technique was to put both lips into the liquid, thus avoiding
> direct contact from the pewter with the mouth.
>
> Sometimes we gave demonstrations of making lead musket-balls, but only a
> few at a time and handling was kept to the bare minimum.  They would be
> passed around for on-lookers to examine who would then wash their hands. 
> Some of us had genuine musket-balls from the period, usually kept in a
> pouch and only handled with gloves.
>
> But we digress...
>
> Ron (UK)
>
>
>
And you still <> your re-enactments ;-)
Conclusion: we should ask Mimmo to make historical red strings because they 
cannot be that bad compared with environmental air pollution.
(and perhaps blue ones too, if we have to believe Thomas Mace.)
Such strings are only for the luteplayers who have guts.
taco



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[LUTE] Re: 7 course English pieces

[David Rastall]

On Feb 25, 2009, at 3:42 AM, Omer Katzir wrote:

> My dear friend, it actually seems that DR, and other "friends"
> missed the whole point. I never asked for someone to look pieces
> for me, I only asked for recommendation for pieces that can be
> found in Serge's and Wayne's websites.
>
> Unfortunately to me, I don't have libraries to get information
> from, the nearest library with early music is in Italy (maybe I can
> find something in Egypt or Turkey), my main source of information
> is my teacher, but he can't keep every piece of music ever written,
> I take from him almost every thing I can to study. What I can't
> take from him, I usually take from both sites, and If I can't find
> there, so I'm looking in few editions to buy, and I buy when I can.
>
> Some folks here plays many years, and I figured they have some
> recommendation for pieces. And if someone will ask me for some six-
> course german music, I will recommend instead of attacking him.

Omer,

I'm sure there are lots of people on this list who will recommend
pieces from the lists you mention.  If I miss the point of that, it's
because I don't see it that way.  To me, part of my education into
lute playing is learning about the historical sources of the music,
and where they can be found.  Wayne's Lute Page and Sarge's website
contain very convenient lists of pieces, but they are not designd to
be a substitute for the historical source material.  At least I hope
not anyway.

To find the historical sources, you have to do a little research, and
also be willing to spend some money.  My recommendation is:  if you
seriously want to find out about English lute music, contact the
English Lute Society, the Lute Society of America, or for that matter
any of the lute societies, and find out from them where the sources
of the music can be found.

DR
dlu...@verizon.net




--

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[LUTE] three recorder continuo

[angevinews]

> The bocal is flared slightly at the end, so it 
> could hold a reed, but it looks more like a bass recorder.
> The bass and the two smaller ones form a continuo 
> group that was popular in France--a sort of 
> portable organ. There is a fairly extensive 
> literatature for three recorder continuo.

I am not familiar with literature for 3 recorder continuo.
Can you say more?  Or give me pointers to some of the music?
Thanks.

Suzanne



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[LUTE] Re: three recorder continuo

[Mathias Rösel]

There are pavans for 3 recorders and lute continuo on the Fronimo
tablatures page

M

 schrieb:
> 
> > The bocal is flared slightly at the end, so it 
> > could hold a reed, but it looks more like a bass recorder.
> > The bass and the two smaller ones form a continuo 
> > group that was popular in France--a sort of 
> > portable organ. There is a fairly extensive 
> > literatature for three recorder continuo.
> 
> I am not familiar with literature for 3 recorder continuo.
> Can you say more?  Or give me pointers to some of the music?
> Thanks.
> 
> Suzanne



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[LUTE] Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Roman Turovsky]

Anyone feels like doing something useful?

This need our attention:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandore_(instrument)

RT




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[LUTE] Re: A pile of chaconnes

[Eugene C. Braig IV]

Man, I love that stuff.  Thank you, Danny.  Personally, I find the Weiss
more effective as duo.  Sollscher recorded it as a solo as well.  The
chordal variations simply sound like accompaniment to me.

Another notable reconstruction of the Weiss is that of the Ahlert-Schwab Duo
for 6-course mandolino and lute.



Best,
Eugene


> -Original Message-
> From: Daniel Shoskes [mailto:kidneykut...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 1:08 PM
> To: lute
> Subject: [LUTE] A pile of chaconnes
> 
>Any way you want to spell it, here are some chaconnes/ciaconas:
> 
>Two by Corbetta in C major:
> 
>[1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E4TDAzyy4s
> 
>Weiss g minor as solo:
> 
>[2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HYm-Y-ioxA
> 
>Same piece with Michel Cardin's flute reconstruction and a plucked viol
>for good measure:
> 
>[3]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNO8hCAlwik
> 
>Danny
> 
>--
> 
> References
> 
>1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E4TDAzyy4s
>2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HYm-Y-ioxA
>3. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNO8hCAlwik
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre

[David Tayler]

Here are closeups of the strings and the bocal cap
http://voicesofmusic.org//images/bocal.jpg
http://voicesofmusic.org//images/strings.jpg

Robert is right, the cap is a tad slender. It does look more shawmy 
than recordery. The overall "look" does however remind me a bit of 
the Verona Collection which we just looked at--and played.
Those recorders sound much better than the modern copies.
I heartily recommend this article
http://www.recorderhomepage.net/families.html

There are two bevels on the cap. A very small one at the top, and 
another ones extending down to the double engraving rings near the top.
However, something about the shape says "reed", but there really is 
not much to see.
The music is playable, as well.
Perhaps someone can put the music in Fronimo?
dt




>It is most likely a larger size shawm. Bass and larger 16th C recorders
>usually had a removable cap, often  with a brass band on the end,
>similar to the ones on the fontanelle (the "pepper-pot" covering the
>little finger key). You would see this even if the instrument were
>turned so that the window was facing away from you.  The edge between
>the side and the top of the cap was typically beveled. You don't see
>any of this in the painting. Also, the instrument in the painting is a
>bit slender looking for a recorder of that size, but not for a shawm.
>Compare the painting with the Praetorius woodcuts.
>(Without getting into the theorbo debate, the woodcuts correlate pretty
>well with surviving instruments for the woodwinds.)
>
>...Bob
>
>
>  I'd guess a great bass recorder, especially since there are other
>  recorders in the pictures. It's not a bassoon or dulcian. Those have
>  a U-shaped structure, and this looks like a single bore instrument.
>  FWIW, the only extended tenor shawms I've seen (one of them in our
>  loud band) use a slightly bent bocal, not the bassoon-like one in
>  the picture, and the top of the instrument is not nearly as broad,
>  but there could be other designs I'm not aware of.
>
>--
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre

[David Tayler]

I don't use a strap, but I like the way the buttons look :)
dt

At 10:51 AM 2/23/2009, you wrote:
>I like the idea of the tapes a lot better than buttons. If the lutes
>were tied to buttons, we would have a lot of old museum lutes with
>scratches on their backs.  But I suppose if the old players routinely
>wore the same clothes we see in the paintings, there would have been
>scratches on the backs of the instruments - almost all of the baroque
>clothes have rows of buttons down the front.  Contrastlingly Vermeer
>and some of the other Dutch painters show a lot of women holding lutes,
>dressed in slippery satin-type skirts, no tapes or buttons in view.
>Another topic for a lot more reasearch
>Nancy
>At 12:21 AM 2/22/2009, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
>
> The 'white spot' will be a small ivory button round which the
>  holding
> gut or tape is looped. Incidentally, there's some doubt that the
>  gut
> (or tape) fastened round a coat button: a contemporary engraving
>  shows
> thin tapes (or ribbons) coming from the coat buttons (or cld be
>  from
> inside the coat ie maybe round the player's back) and leading to
>  the
> ivory button.
> A picture is in the archives
> MH
> --- On Sat, 21/2/09, JarosAAaw Lipski 
>  wrote:
>   From: JarosAAaw Lipski 
>   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
>   To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>   Date: Saturday, 21 February, 2009, 10:00 PM
>  BTW, am I right that the gut is fixed with some glue near the neck
>  (white
>  spot)?
>  JL
>  - Original Message -
>  From: "Stewart McCoy" 
>  To: "Lute Net" 
>  Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 10:14 PM
>  Subject: [LUTE] Laurent de La Hyre
>  >   Dear Jaroslav,
>  >
>  >
>  >   You hook the gut on to one of the buttons of your coat to
>  stabilise the
>  >   lute while you are holding it. I seem to remember Mersenne
>  mentioning
>  >   it. See also Robert Spencer's article on the theorbo in Early
>  Music.
>  It
>  >   is likely that Mouton is holding his lute this way in the famous
>  >   picture of him.
>  >
>  >
>  >   Best wishes,
>  >
>  >
>  >   Stewart McCoy.
>  >
>  >
>  >   -Original Message-
>  >   From: Jaros^3aw Lipski [[1] mailto:jaroslawlip...@wp.pl]
>  >   Sent: 21 February 2009 18:06
>  >   To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>  >   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre
>  >
>  >
>  >  Oh, I've forgot 2 other interesting details.
>  >
>  >
>  >  The frets are double (except last 2), made of a thin gut with
>  knots
>  >   on
>  >
>  >  the treble side.
>  >
>  >
>  >  Both theorbo and the lute on the table has a folded double
>  piece of
>  >   gut
>  >
>  >  going in the middle of the back (longside). It starts from
>  the end
>  >   pin
>  >
>  >  (which is visible on the theorbo) and ends on the white spot
>  (glue?)
>  >
>  >  close to the place where the body meets the neck. There is a
>  loop
>  >
>  >  attached to the long gut - maybe some sort of the system for
>  keeping
>  >
>  >  the instrument while playing. I don't think it served for
>  hanging
>  >   the
>  >
>  >  instrument on the wall. They wouldn't waist such a long piece
>  of
>  gut
>  >
>  >  for this purpose. I hang it with a very short piece of used
>  string
>  >
>  >  attached to the peg box.
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >  Best
>  >
>  >
>  >  Jaroslaw
>  >
>  >
>  >  --
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >   To get on or off this list see list information at
>  >
>  >   [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>  >
>  >   --
>  >
>  >
> --
>
>Nancy Carlin Associates
>P.O. Box 6499
>Concord, CA 94524  USA
>phone 925/686-5800 fax 925/680-2582
>web site - [3]www.nancycarlinassociates.com
>Administrator THE LUTE SOCIETY OF AMERICA
>web site - [4]http://LuteSocietyofAmerica.org
>--
>
>References
>
>1. mailto:jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
>2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>3. http://www.nancycarlinassociates.com/
>4. http://lutesocietyofamerica.org/

[LUTE] Re: three recorder continuo

[David Tayler]

The three recorders play a sort of organ continuo part--in three 
voices, of course, and the bass is an octave higher, like a four foot stop.
It is a great sound for early french music if you have the players 
who can do it, or you can write out their parts.
http://www.recorderhomepage.net/families.html

dt

At 08:29 AM 2/25/2009, you wrote:

> > The bocal is flared slightly at the end, so it
> > could hold a reed, but it looks more like a bass recorder.
> > The bass and the two smaller ones form a continuo
> > group that was popular in France--a sort of
> > portable organ. There is a fairly extensive
> > literatature for three recorder continuo.
>
>I am not familiar with literature for 3 recorder continuo.
>Can you say more?  Or give me pointers to some of the music?
>Thanks.
>
>Suzanne
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: three recorder continuo

[David Tayler]

Here is one of my favorite pix:
Recorder continuo, with two colasciones
http://www.recorderhomepage.net/inline/teofane.jpg




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[LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Stuart Walsh]

Roman Turovsky wrote:

Anyone feels like doing something useful?

This need our attention:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandore_(instrument)

RT



Good point. The photo of the Hans Ott gittern isn't a good start for an 
entry on the mandore.






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[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre

[Leonard Williams]

Hello!
I seem to have lost (read "deleted") the link to this picture and
can't seem to get back to it.  Could someone volunteer to repost the web
address?

Thanks and regards,
Leonard Williams 



On 2/25/09 2:39 PM, "David Tayler"  wrote:

> Here are closeups of the strings and the bocal cap
> http://voicesofmusic.org//images/bocal.jpg
> http://voicesofmusic.org//images/strings.jpg
> 
> Robert is right, the cap is a tad slender. It does look more shawmy
> than recordery. The overall "look" does however remind me a bit of
> the Verona Collection which we just looked at--and played.
> Those recorders sound much better than the modern copies.
> I heartily recommend this article
> http://www.recorderhomepage.net/families.html
> 
> There are two bevels on the cap. A very small one at the top, and
> another ones extending down to the double engraving rings near the top.
> However, something about the shape says "reed", but there really is
> not much to see.
> The music is playable, as well.
> Perhaps someone can put the music in Fronimo?
> dt
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>It is most likely a larger size shawm. Bass and larger 16th C recorders
>>usually had a removable cap, often  with a brass band on the end,
>>similar to the ones on the fontanelle (the "pepper-pot" covering the
>>little finger key). You would see this even if the instrument were
>>turned so that the window was facing away from you.  The edge between
>>the side and the top of the cap was typically beveled. You don't see
>>any of this in the painting. Also, the instrument in the painting is a
>>bit slender looking for a recorder of that size, but not for a shawm.
>>Compare the painting with the Praetorius woodcuts.
>>(Without getting into the theorbo debate, the woodcuts correlate pretty
>>well with surviving instruments for the woodwinds.)
>> 
>>...Bob
>> 
>> 
>>  I'd guess a great bass recorder, especially since there are other
>>  recorders in the pictures. It's not a bassoon or dulcian. Those have
>>  a U-shaped structure, and this looks like a single bore instrument.
>>  FWIW, the only extended tenor shawms I've seen (one of them in our
>>  loud band) use a slightly bent bocal, not the bassoon-like one in
>>  the picture, and the top of the instrument is not nearly as broad,
>>  but there could be other designs I'm not aware of.
>> 
>>--
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Mathias Rösel]

"Roman Turovsky"  schrieb:
> Anyone feels like doing something useful?
> 
> This need our attention:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandore_(instrument)

Please do keep an eye on the language of the paragraphs that I've just
now added, as I'm not a native speaker.
-- 
Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Christopher Stetson]

Hi, all,
Thanks, Mathias.  
Since you ask, I'd recommend using the more commonly understood "string
length" as opposed to "mensur" in writing for general consumption. 
Otherwise, looks great to this mandore-illiterate but interested party. 

Best to all, and keep playing,
Chris.




>>> "Mathias Rösel"  2/25/2009 4:45 PM >>>
"Roman Turovsky"  schrieb:
> Anyone feels like doing something useful?
> 
> This need our attention:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandore_(instrument)

Please do keep an eye on the language of the paragraphs that I've just
now added, as I'm not a native speaker.
-- 
Mathias



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[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre

[Jaroslaw Lipski]

Here you are http://tinyurl.com/conmfc
regards
Jaroslaw

- Original Message - 
From: "Leonard Williams" 

To: "Lute List" 
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 10:23 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre



Hello!
   I seem to have lost (read "deleted") the link to this picture and
can't seem to get back to it.  Could someone volunteer to repost the web
address?

Thanks and regards,
Leonard Williams



On 2/25/09 2:39 PM, "David Tayler"  wrote:


Here are closeups of the strings and the bocal cap
http://voicesofmusic.org//images/bocal.jpg
http://voicesofmusic.org//images/strings.jpg

Robert is right, the cap is a tad slender. It does look more shawmy
than recordery. The overall "look" does however remind me a bit of
the Verona Collection which we just looked at--and played.
Those recorders sound much better than the modern copies.
I heartily recommend this article
http://www.recorderhomepage.net/families.html

There are two bevels on the cap. A very small one at the top, and
another ones extending down to the double engraving rings near the top.
However, something about the shape says "reed", but there really is
not much to see.
The music is playable, as well.
Perhaps someone can put the music in Fronimo?
dt




   It is most likely a larger size shawm. Bass and larger 16th C 
recorders

   usually had a removable cap, often  with a brass band on the end,
   similar to the ones on the fontanelle (the "pepper-pot" covering the
   little finger key). You would see this even if the instrument were
   turned so that the window was facing away from you.  The edge between
   the side and the top of the cap was typically beveled. You don't see
   any of this in the painting. Also, the instrument in the painting is 
a

   bit slender looking for a recorder of that size, but not for a shawm.
   Compare the painting with the Praetorius woodcuts.
   (Without getting into the theorbo debate, the woodcuts correlate 
pretty

   well with surviving instruments for the woodwinds.)

   ...Bob


 I'd guess a great bass recorder, especially since there are other
 recorders in the pictures. It's not a bassoon or dulcian. Those 
have

 a U-shaped structure, and this looks like a single bore instrument.
 FWIW, the only extended tenor shawms I've seen (one of them in our
 loud band) use a slightly bent bocal, not the bassoon-like one in
 the picture, and the top of the instrument is not nearly as broad,
 but there could be other designs I'm not aware of.

   --


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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Eugene C. Braig IV]

Myself, I would probably differentiate between "mandora/mandore" and
"mandola" based upon the ca. 1600 French and Scottish literature for a
soprano tuned in alternating 4ths and 5ths to use the former and the Italian
tuned wholly or mostly in 4ths to use the latter.

Best,
Eugene


> -Original Message-
> From: "Mathias Rösel" [mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:45 PM
> To: Roman Turovsky
> Cc: Lutelist
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free
> encyclopedia
> 
> "Roman Turovsky"  schrieb:
> > Anyone feels like doing something useful?
> >
> > This need our attention:
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandore_(instrument)
> 
> Please do keep an eye on the language of the paragraphs that I've just
> now added, as I'm not a native speaker.
> --
> Mathias
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Mathias Rösel]

Have a go on it, Euge! I'm no expert on the 1600 mandore.

M

"Eugene C. Braig IV"  schrieb:
> Myself, I would probably differentiate between "mandora/mandore" and
> "mandola" based upon the ca. 1600 French and Scottish literature for a
> soprano tuned in alternating 4ths and 5ths to use the former and the Italian
> tuned wholly or mostly in 4ths to use the latter.
> 
> Best,
> Eugene
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: "Mathias Rösel" [mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de]
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:45 PM
> > To: Roman Turovsky
> > Cc: Lutelist
> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free
> > encyclopedia
> > 
> > "Roman Turovsky"  schrieb:
> > > Anyone feels like doing something useful?
> > >
> > > This need our attention:
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandore_(instrument)
> > 
> > Please do keep an eye on the language of the paragraphs that I've just
> > now added, as I'm not a native speaker.
> > --
> > Mathias
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Viele Grüße

Mathias Rösel

http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com 
http://www.myspace.com/mathiasroesel 
http://de.geocities.com/mathiasroesel 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Bellman concert NYC

[Roman Turovsky]

From: "Daniel Swenberg"



Sorry about the last minute announcement.  But, I thought I would  
mention a fun and free concert I am playing tonight at Columbia.  It  
is music and texts by Carl Michael Bellman, the Swedish Rococo poet/ 
composer.  The songs are fun and mostly acted, usually having to do  
with drinking, and women -- he formed a society for Bacchus...


the deutsches Haus is between Amsterdam and Morniside on 116  Concert  
at 7


http://www.polyphony.com/polyphony.asp

Daniel Swenberg
http://web.me.com/theorboy





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[LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[demery]

>>"Roman Turovsky"  schrieb:
>> > Anyone feels like doing something useful?
>> >
>> > This need our attention:
>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandore_(instrument)

my email client breaks that link, revealing another article that also
needs a tweak.

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandore

relates a breif history of the region called Mandore.  It has a section of
related links which needs expansion to include a link to our article.

-- 
Dana Emery




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[LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Eugene C. Braig IV]

I may...if I can ever break away from invasive fishes.  One day...

Eugene


> -Original Message-
> From: "Mathias Rösel" [mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 5:21 PM
> To: Eugene C. Braig IV
> Cc: 'Roman Turovsky'; 'Lutelist'
> Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free
> encyclopedia
> 
> Have a go on it, Euge! I'm no expert on the 1600 mandore.
> 
> M
> 
> "Eugene C. Braig IV"  schrieb:
> > Myself, I would probably differentiate between "mandora/mandore" and
> > "mandola" based upon the ca. 1600 French and Scottish literature for a
> > soprano tuned in alternating 4ths and 5ths to use the former and the
> Italian
> > tuned wholly or mostly in 4ths to use the latter.
> >
> > Best,
> > Eugene
> >
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: "Mathias Rösel" [mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:45 PM
> > > To: Roman Turovsky
> > > Cc: Lutelist
> > > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free
> > > encyclopedia
> > >
> > > "Roman Turovsky"  schrieb:
> > > > Anyone feels like doing something useful?
> > > >
> > > > This need our attention:
> > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandore_(instrument)
> > >
> > > Please do keep an eye on the language of the paragraphs that I've just
> > > now added, as I'm not a native speaker.
> > > --
> > > Mathias
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> --
> Viele Grüße
> 
> Mathias Rösel
> 
> http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com
> http://www.myspace.com/mathiasroesel
> http://de.geocities.com/mathiasroesel

[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre

[demery]

On Wed, Feb 25, 2009, David Tayler  said:

> The bocal is flared slightly at the end, so it 
> could hold a reed, but it looks more like a bass recorder.

A labium on the front of the instrument would tell us for certain, but
this is obscured. by the music.  I would expect Bass and quart bass
recorders to use chanelling rather than a crook, too easy to lose a crook,
and you already need a seperate piece to cover the block and form the
windway.  The crook is more natural to a shalm, and the very large head
coupled to an alto/tenorish length puts me in mind of a shalm.


> The bass and the two smaller ones form a continuo 
> group that was popular in France--a sort of 
> portable organ. 

yes, but is that music in that genre?  The smaller recorders could just as
easily be pitch pipes, quiet things for practice, or something left by an
absent playing partner.


> If it is a recorder, the windway is to the back, but that is not unusual.

for larger recorders it is the norm, only on small instruments can one
bring the lips to a beak while fingering the tone holes.

-- 
Dana Emery




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Rob MacKillop]

   Should we really describe it as a 'forerunner of the mandolin'? Surely
   a different family?



   I'm tired and it's near bedtime, otherwise I would add info about the
   Skene ms...



   Rob MacKillop

   --


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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Eugene C. Braig IV]

Actually, the mandolin is quite a different instrument than the
mandolin...in comparing Vivaldi to Calace.  That of Vivaldi certainly
carries many similarities to the soprano mandore of ca. 1600.

I'm also tired and wishing it was bedtime here.  Alas, several hours yet to
go.

Eugene


> -Original Message-
> From: Rob MacKillop [mailto:luteplay...@googlemail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 5:44 PM
> To: dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us
> Cc: Lutelist
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free
> encyclopedia
> 
>Should we really describe it as a 'forerunner of the mandolin'? Surely
>a different family?
> 
> 
> 
>I'm tired and it's near bedtime, otherwise I would add info about the
>Skene ms...
> 
> 
> 
>Rob MacKillop
> 
>--
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre

[demery]

On Wed, Feb 25, 2009, dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us said:

> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009, David Tayler  said:
> 
>> The bocal is flared slightly at the end, so it 
>> could hold a reed, but it looks more like a bass recorder.
> 
> A labium on the front of the instrument would tell us for certain, but
> this is obscured. by the music.  

after a fresh look at the painting (thanks for posting the link) I am
certain this is not a recorder, enough of the head is shown that a labium
would be visible if there, even if it was a great bass instrument (which
it doesnt have room to be).

-- 
Dana Emery




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre

[Jarosław Lipski]

It really seems that the crook ends with the reed. I know that you exclued 
the basoon, but can we be sure if the rest of the instrument is not visible? 
Please have a look at Andrew Watts's early basoon: 
http://www.earlymusica.permutation.com/about_Andrew_Watts.htm  .Here the 
crook looks longer, however on the picture we see it at the angle, thus 
looking shorter. They were in use as early as 1650. The shawm doesn't seem 
to fit the whole set of these instruments. But I don't insist. Just a 
thought :-)

Jaroslaw


- Original Message - 
From: 

To: "lute-cs.dartmouth.edu" 
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 11:42 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre



On Wed, Feb 25, 2009, David Tayler  said:


The bocal is flared slightly at the end, so it
could hold a reed, but it looks more like a bass recorder.


A labium on the front of the instrument would tell us for certain, but
this is obscured. by the music.  I would expect Bass and quart bass
recorders to use chanelling rather than a crook, too easy to lose a crook,
and you already need a seperate piece to cover the block and form the
windway.  The crook is more natural to a shalm, and the very large head
coupled to an alto/tenorish length puts me in mind of a shalm.



The bass and the two smaller ones form a continuo
group that was popular in France--a sort of
portable organ.


yes, but is that music in that genre?  The smaller recorders could just as
easily be pitch pipes, quiet things for practice, or something left by an
absent playing partner.



If it is a recorder, the windway is to the back, but that is not unusual.


for larger recorders it is the norm, only on small instruments can one
bring the lips to a beak while fingering the tone holes.

--
Dana Emery




To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Christopher Stetson]

It's not near my bedtime, I'm not tired and looking forward to a guitar trio 
rehearsal.  

I don't dare say that I'll be rehearsing to play the "lute" (organologically 
speaking) that dare not say it's name on this list at a Shakespeare festival.

However, I'd rather Eugene worked on his invasive fishes than a Wikipedia 
article.  Assuming he's trying to keep them from invading, that is.

Best to all, and keep playing.
C.

>>> "Eugene C. Braig IV"  2/25/2009 5:57 PM >>>
Actually, the mandolin is quite a different instrument than the
mandolin...in comparing Vivaldi to Calace.  That of Vivaldi certainly
carries many similarities to the soprano mandore of ca. 1600.

I'm also tired and wishing it was bedtime here.  Alas, several hours yet to
go.

Eugene


> -Original Message-
> From: Rob MacKillop [mailto:luteplay...@googlemail.com] 
> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 5:44 PM
> To: dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us 
> Cc: Lutelist
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free
> encyclopedia
> 
>Should we really describe it as a 'forerunner of the mandolin'? Surely
>a different family?
> 
> 
> 
>I'm tired and it's near bedtime, otherwise I would add info about the
>Skene ms...
> 
> 
> 
>Rob MacKillop
> 
>--
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 

[LUTE] Re: Laurent de La Hyre

[demery]

On Wed, Feb 25, 2009, Jaros³aw Lipski  said:

> It really seems that the crook ends with the reed. I know that you exclued 
> the basoon, but can we be sure if the rest of the instrument is not visible? 

dulcians preceeded and overlapped the bassoon, dulcians are usually made
from one or more pieces not intended to disasemble; bassoons are often
jointed.  The upper end of the one you posted has a brass cap surounding
the ends of both ascending and descending bores, this is unusual, more
commonly the descending bore is shorter.  The laurent instrument's end
shows one central bore, tapered to take the thread-lapped bocal.

Praetorius is relevant here.

> The shawm doesn't seem 
> to fit the whole set of these instruments. 

neither does a Dulcian or Bassoon, but a wind player is plausibly familiar
with all of them.


-- 
Dana Emery




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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - not Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Jean-Marie Poirier]

Maybe you could have a look there : http://le.luth.free.fr/mandore/index.html .
I put this up a few months ago to introduce the French mandore. So, obviously 
enough, it's in French, well most of it !

Best,

Jean-Marie 

=== 25-02-2009 23:20:46 ===

>Myself, I would probably differentiate between "mandora/mandore" and
>"mandola" based upon the ca. 1600 French and Scottish literature for a
>soprano tuned in alternating 4ths and 5ths to use the former and the Italian
>tuned wholly or mostly in 4ths to use the latter.
>
>Best,
>Eugene
>
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: "Mathias Rösel" [mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de]
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 4:45 PM
>> To: Roman Turovsky
>> Cc: Lutelist
>> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Mandore (instrument) - Wikipedia, the free
>> encyclopedia
>> 
>> "Roman Turovsky"  schrieb:
>> > Anyone feels like doing something useful?
>> >
>> > This need our attention:
>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandore_(instrument)
>> 
>> Please do keep an eye on the language of the paragraphs that I've just
>> now added, as I'm not a native speaker.
>> --
>> Mathias
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>---
>Orange vous informe que cet  e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. 
>Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
  
jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr
http://poirierjm.free.fr
26-02-2009