Re: [newbie] Planning ahead - next step
Right, Derrick. Good advice. But, if you do mix up users, or if the distro starts the UID numbering sequence differently (as in RH vs Mandrake, 500 vs 501), you can 'handedit' the /etc/passwd file. Terry Smith Cape Cod USA On Sat, 2002-11-16 at 13:01, Derek Jennings wrote: On Sat, 16 Nov 2002 14:47:42 + John Richard Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anne Wilson wrote: When installing v.9.0 I considered sharing the existing /home directory, which I was told is possible. However, I then realised that I would be likely to cause version conflicts in the various dot file/directories unless I registered as a different user. Then I considered what I would have to do about the existing other users - problems. The other users never log on directly, but need access from their windows machines over samba, partly for filesharing and partly for backup of their work. Possible solution - clean install with new /home, mount old home as /oldhome, copy their data only onto the new setup. a) Will I be able to mount the old home in this way, or will 9.0 insist that I already have a /home? They will not be on the same hdd, if that makes any difference (don't see why it would). b) Any other comments? Anything I need to think more about? Anne I don't think there is anything to worry about in regard to a shared /home partition. You will of course have the same user profile for both OS's, that is all. I choose not to have one /home partition. I don't think it's possible to share the same /home directory, persumeably in one or other Mandrake OS. Each OS has it's own /home directory, and you may set them up hower you desire. Generally speaking it's not fifficult to copy setup files from one /home directory to another, which aids the user configuration process. John -- John Richard Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] There is no need to create new home directiries so long as you take one simple precaution when you install 9.0 Simply add your users in *exactly* the same order as you did when you installed 8.2 This will ensure that each user has the same UID number (User Identification Number) as in the old installation. And the ownerships of all the files in the existing home directories will be OK. Add the users in a different order and crazy things will happen like files in userA's home will only be readable by userB There is no need to worry about the 'dotfiles' in the homes. KDE will for example automatically upgrade a kde2.2 ~/kde directory to kde3 format the first time you log in. You will not lose any config data. derek Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Planning ahead - next step
On Sunday 17 Nov 2002 5:11 pm, Terry Smith wrote: Right, Derrick. Good advice. But, if you do mix up users, or if the distro starts the UID numbering sequence differently (as in RH vs Mandrake, 500 vs 501), you can 'handedit' the /etc/passwd file. How? Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Planning ahead - next step
Anne, Here's a snippet from my RH 8.0 /etc/passwd file: ... pvm:x:24:24::/usr/share/pvm3:/bin/bash radvd:x:75:75:radvd user:/:/bin/false terry:x:501:501:Terry Smith:/home/terry:/bin/bash . The last line is associated with user 'terry' and includes the user name:whether the user employs the x server:the user id (UID):the group id:the user's full name:the user's home directory:the user's preferred shell. If I had problems across two distributions, for example, I would check the other distro's /etc/passwd file. Suppose it has a user 'terry' with UID = 500. I would open that /etc/passwd file in an editor and change the 500 to 501. The new distribution should now have the correct permissions (that is, the same as the old distro in this case) set for user 'terry'. Terry Smith Cape Cod USA On Sun, 2002-11-17 at 12:33, Anne Wilson wrote: On Sunday 17 Nov 2002 5:11 pm, Terry Smith wrote: Right, Derrick. Good advice. But, if you do mix up users, or if the distro starts the UID numbering sequence differently (as in RH vs Mandrake, 500 vs 501), you can 'handedit' the /etc/passwd file. How? Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Planning ahead - next step
Thanks, Terry. That's worth filing for reference :-) Anne On Sunday 17 Nov 2002 6:34 pm, Terry Smith wrote: Anne, Here's a snippet from my RH 8.0 /etc/passwd file: ... pvm:x:24:24::/usr/share/pvm3:/bin/bash radvd:x:75:75:radvd user:/:/bin/false terry:x:501:501:Terry Smith:/home/terry:/bin/bash . The last line is associated with user 'terry' and includes the user name:whether the user employs the x server:the user id (UID):the group id:the user's full name:the user's home directory:the user's preferred shell. If I had problems across two distributions, for example, I would check the other distro's /etc/passwd file. Suppose it has a user 'terry' with UID = 500. I would open that /etc/passwd file in an editor and change the 500 to 501. The new distribution should now have the correct permissions (that is, the same as the old distro in this case) set for user 'terry'. Terry Smith Cape Cod USA On Sun, 2002-11-17 at 12:33, Anne Wilson wrote: On Sunday 17 Nov 2002 5:11 pm, Terry Smith wrote: Right, Derrick. Good advice. But, if you do mix up users, or if the distro starts the UID numbering sequence differently (as in RH vs Mandrake, 500 vs 501), you can 'handedit' the /etc/passwd file. How? Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
[newbie] Planning ahead - next step
When installing v.9.0 I considered sharing the existing /home directory, which I was told is possible. However, I then realised that I would be likely to cause version conflicts in the various dot file/directories unless I registered as a different user. Then I considered what I would have to do about the existing other users - problems. The other users never log on directly, but need access from their windows machines over samba, partly for filesharing and partly for backup of their work. Possible solution - clean install with new /home, mount old home as /oldhome, copy their data only onto the new setup. a) Will I be able to mount the old home in this way, or will 9.0 insist that I already have a /home? They will not be on the same hdd, if that makes any difference (don't see why it would). b) Any other comments? Anything I need to think more about? Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Planning ahead - next step
Anne Wilson wrote: When installing v.9.0 I considered sharing the existing /home directory, which I was told is possible. However, I then realised that I would be likely to cause version conflicts in the various dot file/directories unless I registered as a different user. Then I considered what I would have to do about the existing other users - problems. The other users never log on directly, but need access from their windows machines over samba, partly for filesharing and partly for backup of their work. Possible solution - clean install with new /home, mount old home as /oldhome, copy their data only onto the new setup. a) Will I be able to mount the old home in this way, or will 9.0 insist that I already have a /home? They will not be on the same hdd, if that makes any difference (don't see why it would). b) Any other comments? Anything I need to think more about? Anne I don't think there is anything to worry about in regard to a shared /home partition. You will of course have the same user profile for both OS's, that is all. I choose not to have one /home partition. I don't think it's possible to share the same /home directory, persumeably in one or other Mandrake OS. Each OS has it's own /home directory, and you may set them up hower you desire. Generally speaking it's not fifficult to copy setup files from one /home directory to another, which aids the user configuration process. John -- John Richard Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Planning ahead - next step
On Sat, 16 Nov 2002 14:47:42 + John Richard Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anne Wilson wrote: When installing v.9.0 I considered sharing the existing /home directory, which I was told is possible. However, I then realised that I would be likely to cause version conflicts in the various dot file/directories unless I registered as a different user. Then I considered what I would have to do about the existing other users - problems. The other users never log on directly, but need access from their windows machines over samba, partly for filesharing and partly for backup of their work. Possible solution - clean install with new /home, mount old home as /oldhome, copy their data only onto the new setup. a) Will I be able to mount the old home in this way, or will 9.0 insist that I already have a /home? They will not be on the same hdd, if that makes any difference (don't see why it would). b) Any other comments? Anything I need to think more about? Anne I don't think there is anything to worry about in regard to a shared /home partition. You will of course have the same user profile for both OS's, that is all. I choose not to have one /home partition. I don't think it's possible to share the same /home directory, persumeably in one or other Mandrake OS. Each OS has it's own /home directory, and you may set them up hower you desire. Generally speaking it's not fifficult to copy setup files from one /home directory to another, which aids the user configuration process. John -- John Richard Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] There is no need to create new home directiries so long as you take one simple precaution when you install 9.0 Simply add your users in *exactly* the same order as you did when you installed 8.2 This will ensure that each user has the same UID number (User Identification Number) as in the old installation. And the ownerships of all the files in the existing home directories will be OK. Add the users in a different order and crazy things will happen like files in userA's home will only be readable by userB There is no need to worry about the 'dotfiles' in the homes. KDE will for example automatically upgrade a kde2.2 ~/kde directory to kde3 format the first time you log in. You will not lose any config data. derek Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Planning ahead - next step
On Sat, 2002-11-16 at 21:43, Anne Wilson wrote: When installing v.9.0 I considered sharing the existing /home directory, which I was told is possible. However, I then realised that I would be likely to cause version conflicts in the various dot file/directories unless I registered as a different user. Then I considered what I would have to do about the existing other users - problems. The other users never log on directly, but need access from their windows machines over samba, partly for filesharing and partly for backup of their work. Possible solution - clean install with new /home, mount old home as /oldhome, copy their data only onto the new setup. If you recreated the users in the new installation, and mounted their old /home dirs just to copy the data into the new /home dirs - the only foreseeable problem I can envision is permissions. Changing the permissions per each /home/XXuser recursively and having them map via SAMBA to these /home dirs wouldn't appear to be a problem - but I could be wrong. a) Will I be able to mount the old home in this way, or will 9.0 insist that I already have a /home? They will not be on the same hdd, if that makes any difference (don't see why it would). If you mount the old /home elsewhere and rename it, *nix shouldn't complain - it's already mounting a /home directory, so no matter what the structure, mounting as a different name wouldn't really matter. b) Any other comments? Anything I need to think more about? Nice to see sysadmins thinking about their users... Anne Stephen -- Sun Nov 17 05:20:00 EST 2002 |____ | | / \ /| |'-. | | .\__/ || | | | | _ / `._ \|_|_.-' | | | / \__.`=._) (_ |kuhn media australia | |/ ._/ || |http://kma.0catch.com | |'. `\ | | |stephen kuhn | ;/ / | | |email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | smk ) /_/| |.---.| |mobile: 0410-728-389 | ' `-`' |linux user:267497 I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind. -- Kahlil Gibran Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Planning ahead - next step
On Saturday 16 Nov 2002 6:01 pm, you wrote: On Sat, 16 Nov 2002 14:47:42 + John Richard Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anne Wilson wrote: When installing v.9.0 I considered sharing the existing /home directory, which I was told is possible. However, I then realised that I would be likely to cause version conflicts in the various dot file/directories unless I registered as a different user. Then I considered what I would have to do about the existing other users - problems. The other users never log on directly, but need access from their windows machines over samba, partly for filesharing and partly for backup of their work. Possible solution - clean install with new /home, mount old home as /oldhome, copy their data only onto the new setup. a) Will I be able to mount the old home in this way, or will 9.0 insist that I already have a /home? They will not be on the same hdd, if that makes any difference (don't see why it would). b) Any other comments? Anything I need to think more about? Anne I don't think there is anything to worry about in regard to a shared /home partition. You will of course have the same user profile for both OS's, that is all. I choose not to have one /home partition. I don't think it's possible to share the same /home directory, persumeably in one or other Mandrake OS. Each OS has it's own /home directory, and you may set them up hower you desire. Generally speaking it's not fifficult to copy setup files from one /home directory to another, which aids the user configuration process. John -- John Richard Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] There is no need to create new home directiries so long as you take one simple precaution when you install 9.0 Simply add your users in *exactly* the same order as you did when you installed 8.2 Problem is, something weird happened when I re-installed. I found that I was user 501, and the next user I added was 500. I suppose I could remove him and add him again to get a higher number, as I imagine that I will probably be added as 500. What do you think? This will ensure that each user has the same UID number (User Identification Number) as in the old installation. And the ownerships of all the files in the existing home directories will be OK. When I copied the user files back I had to change the owner of all their files - fortunately not too many yet. Add the users in a different order and crazy things will happen like files in userA's home will only be readable by userB There is no need to worry about the 'dotfiles' in the homes. KDE will for example automatically upgrade a kde2.2 ~/kde directory to kde3 format the first time you log in. You will not lose any config data. But what will happen when I log in to 8.2 again? Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Planning ahead (small piggyback)
snip Whenever I've done installs this way, I've even re-named my /mnt/win_c partition (and occasionally even a /mnt/win_d) to /Windows and /Archive with no problems whatsoever. Then at least I can find those partitions quicker in Konqueror, and I don't have to wait for Konqueror to auto-mount my CDrom or Floppy drives each time I need access to the Windows or Archive partition. Actually, I just finished one of these types of installs this past weekend. Works like a charm. Have fun! (?) Lanman snip You have mounted them at root level? That would stop the 5 second disk shuffle pause nicely. Couldn't you edit an existing system with links in your /home/user/ that would work as quick? -- Michael Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Planning ahead (small piggyback)
Yup. Don't see why not. But if your systems and users are trusted, it shouldn't make any serious difference. Lanman *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 13/11/2002 at 10:06 PM Michael Adams wrote: snip Whenever I've done installs this way, I've even re-named my /mnt/win_c partition (and occasionally even a /mnt/win_d) to /Windows and /Archive with no problems whatsoever. Then at least I can find those partitions quicker in Konqueror, and I don't have to wait for Konqueror to auto-mount my CDrom or Floppy drives each time I need access to the Windows or Archive partition. Actually, I just finished one of these types of installs this past weekend. Works like a charm. Have fun! (?) Lanman snip You have mounted them at root level? That would stop the 5 second disk shuffle pause nicely. Couldn't you edit an existing system with links in your /home/user/ that would work as quick? -- Michael Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
[newbie] Planning ahead
Lanman - When discussing my cleanup and redistribution of installs and data on my 3 hdds, you advised me to 'change the Mount Point' (of the 4 Gb drive) 'to something like /temp'. Just to put my mind at rest - I presume this is done during the install? I seem to remember that I was invited to name the partitions found during the install - am I right? I've backed up all the fat32 data (it hasn't had a thorough clean down for years so much is duplicated) and first thing in the morning I'll back up my Mdk 8.2 install, then it's crossed fingers and toes and go for it. I'll follow your advice, I think, putting Win98 and 8.2 on the first drive and Mdk 9.0 on the second. Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Planning ahead
Anne; Yes, that's absolutely right. Change the mount point to /temp during the install. Don't format it !! I mention that because I've accidently done it myself a few times. Once that's done, proceed with the Win98 and LM 8.2 installs as usual. LM 8.2 being the second install, will automatically detect the Win98 partition as well, thereby adding Win98 into the lilo configuration. You'll probably have to change the mount point for the old /home, before setting the other mount points though. Otherwise Mandrake will put up a fuss, thinking that you have 2 /home partitions. Later, when you do the 9.0 install, everything should go like clock-work and 9.0 will also add itself to your boot config. A word to the wise, though. Make sure that you give custom names to your Mandr5ake installs when setting up Lilo or Grub, so that you don't get any error messages about duplicate names. I've actually experimented with this and found that you can name an O/S anything in Lilo and it works fine. Even had a client who asked me to name them Crunchy and Smoothy ! Either this guy knows of a few exotic drinks I've never heard of, or he REALLY likes his Peanut Butter! Whenever I've done installs this way, I've even re-named my /mnt/win_c partition (and occasionally even a /mnt/win_d) to /Windows and /Archive with no problems whatsoever. Then at least I can find those partitions quicker in Konqueror, and I don't have to wait for Konqueror to auto-mount my CDrom or Floppy drives each time I need access to the Windows or Archive partition. Actually, I just finished one of these types of installs this past weekend. Works like a charm. Have fun! (?) Lanman *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 12/11/2002 at 7:28 PM Anne Wilson wrote: Lanman - When discussing my cleanup and redistribution of installs and data on my 3 hdds, you advised me to 'change the Mount Point' (of the 4 Gb drive) 'to something like /temp'. Just to put my mind at rest - I presume this is done during the install? I seem to remember that I was invited to name the partitions found during the install - am I right? I've backed up all the fat32 data (it hasn't had a thorough clean down for years so much is duplicated) and first thing in the morning I'll back up my Mdk 8.2 install, then it's crossed fingers and toes and go for it. I'll follow your advice, I think, putting Win98 and 8.2 on the first drive and Mdk 9.0 on the second. Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
[newbie] Planning ahead
I'm expecting my pre-ordered disks any day now, and, in the light of problems others have had with hardware no longer working, at least out of the box, I have to make decisions. At the same time, I feel that I have a HDD catastrophe waiting to happen. Currently I have two 20Gb disks and a 4Gb installed. You can guess how old that one is (it has my /home on it), but the others are not so young either. I think the best solution for the moment is to keep win98 (I still have a couple of essential apps there), keep Mdk 8.2 and install Mdk 9.0 as well. It would not, I think, be sensible to put in a fourth disk, so I'm wondering whether to put the lot onto 1 large disk, or split the os's - perhaps win98 on a separate one? Any pros and cons? If I back up /etc /home /root and /var can I take it that I could find and restore any settings (including my mailboxes) that I may need? I presume that if I do this it would still be wise to install win98 first. Are there any problems about installing the two versions of Mdk after that? I know some of you do have more than one. Finally, if and when I get Mdk 9.0 as I want it, is it straightforward to get rid of 8.2 without risk to win98 and 9.0? I would guess that it is simply a matter of reformatting that partition and then re-running lilo. Am I right? Any more thoughts? Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Planning ahead
Anne; Interesting situation! Your 4Gb HDD is currently holding your /home partition? Brave! Very Brave! That hard drive has to be 2 or 3 years PAST it's MTBF (Mean Time Before Failure), and it's holding your personal data? I'd like to suggest that you skip the new hard drive idea, unless you want a large drive for storage, and stick with the 2 20's. I'd reccommend setting up Windows 98 on the first drive, with ML8.2 nestled right in beside it. Using 5 Gigs for Win98, and 6 for 8.2, would leave you with roughly 8 or 9 Gigs for storage, and if you formatted the last partition using FAT32, both O/S's would have unlimited access to it. When you start the installs, make sure your 4 Gb drive is also connected, but change the Mount Point to something like /temp, and DO NOT format it. Later, you can drag 'n' drop all relevant files from your /temp/anne folder to the corresponding folder(s) on your Mandrake installs (yes,...both of them). When your 9.0 CD's arrive, install it on the second 20 Gig drive, again using 6 Gigs for the install, and the remainder for storage. If you store all your downloads, documents, graphics, etc., on the storage partitions, you should be able to re-install broken O/S's without fear of losing or compromising any important data. You should have No problem re-locating your Win98 My Documents folder to one of those storage partitions, simply by right-clicking the desktop folder Properties Move. After that, all documents will be automatically saved there, and recalled from there when re-opening them. Each version of Mandrake installed will write a new lilo.conf file, and should easily find all the other O/S's you have on the system. This will also allow you to quickly restore most anything simply by running the Expert Upgrade option in either Mandrake CD set that you have. Once your installs are finished, and you've copied your original /home folder contents from the 4 Gb drive, un-mount it from your system, make sure your fstab files are written properly, shutdown the system, and remove it. That way, you'll always have it available for emergencies, but it won't get any older, nor will it face potential damage from power failures. Occasionally, you can reconnect it and copy your /home data onto it for updated storage of critical information, then un-mount and store back on a shelf. Just a suggestion, but definitely safer than relying on that old hard drive. Lanman On Sun, 2002-11-03 at 09:16, Anne Wilson wrote: I'm expecting my pre-ordered disks any day now, and, in the light of problems others have had with hardware no longer working, at least out of the box, I have to make decisions. At the same time, I feel that I have a HDD catastrophe waiting to happen. Currently I have two 20Gb disks and a 4Gb installed. You can guess how old that one is (it has my /home on it), but the others are not so young either. I think the best solution for the moment is to keep win98 (I still have a couple of essential apps there), keep Mdk 8.2 and install Mdk 9.0 as well. It would not, I think, be sensible to put in a fourth disk, so I'm wondering whether to put the lot onto 1 large disk, or split the os's - perhaps win98 on a separate one? Any pros and cons? If I back up /etc /home /root and /var can I take it that I could find and restore any settings (including my mailboxes) that I may need? I presume that if I do this it would still be wise to install win98 first. Are there any problems about installing the two versions of Mdk after that? I know some of you do have more than one. Finally, if and when I get Mdk 9.0 as I want it, is it straightforward to get rid of 8.2 without risk to win98 and 9.0? I would guess that it is simply a matter of reformatting that partition and then re-running lilo. Am I right? Any more thoughts? Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Planning ahead
Anne; Never thought you were Daft, but I didn't know your experience level, so I thought I'd be specific, just to make sure that no important steps were missed. Lanman On Sun, 2002-11-03 at 12:57, Anne Wilson wrote: On Sunday 03 Nov 2002 3:03 pm, you wrote: Anne; Interesting situation! Your 4Gb HDD is currently holding your /home partition? Brave! Very Brave! That hard drive has to be 2 or 3 years PAST it's MTBF (Mean Time Before Failure), and it's holding your personal data? Hey, I'm not entirely daft :-) Most of my data is in fat32 partitions, with sort of working space plus my linux personal files in /home. I do have some backup of my linux partitions, though admittedly one is overdue. As for MTBFs, I've been amazed at the threads I've seen here - mine are Fujitsu and Maxtor (the little one's Fujitsu), and . I'd better not tempt fate. I'd like to suggest that you skip the new hard drive idea, unless you want a large drive for storage, and stick with the 2 20's. I'd reccommend setting up Windows 98 on the first drive, with ML8.2 nestled right in beside it. Using 5 Gigs for Win98, and 6 for 8.2, would leave you with roughly 8 or 9 Gigs for storage, and if you formatted the last partition using FAT32, both O/S's would have unlimited access to it. I'll dig out the invoices tonight and see how old ghd 20Gb disks are. That should give us a clue as to whether they're reasonably safe to use. When you start the installs, make sure your 4 Gb drive is also connected, but change the Mount Point to something like /temp, and DO NOT format it. Later, you can drag 'n' drop all relevant files from your /temp/anne folder to the corresponding folder(s) on your Mandrake installs (yes,...both of them). Currently my 20Gb drives are formatted in 4s, for compact storage. Some partitions are fairly full, but others almost empty. I think some hefty housekeeping before doing anything is called for. When your 9.0 CD's arrive, snip I've printed that out and will use it, subject to considerations above. Thanks Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com -- Dan LaBine President Maximum Lans [EMAIL PROTECTED] (514) 489-7825 6915 Fielding Ave. Suite # 228 Montreal, Quebec, H4V 1P4 Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [newbie] Planning ahead
On Sunday 03 Nov 2002 6:37 pm, you wrote: Anne; Never thought you were Daft, but I didn't know your experience level, so I thought I'd be specific, just to make sure that no important steps were missed. Lanman No 'ffence taken, but I am guilty of having a machine that has grown like Topsy, and I guess I really should do something about it. Trouble is, I spend so much time fixing those d'ed windows machines for all my family friends :-) Anne Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
