RE: [PHP] Re: getting a LAMP job in this economy
It's hard, I think in part, because of the reputation PHP is getting in some circles. Many of the people evangelizing it don't know anything else, and simply extoll all the 'wonderful' virtues of it. YES! This poisoning of the well has happened and continues to happen. The problem is that being an evangelist is a wonderful thing-- but you have to be quite skilled at communication to be a successful one :) Otherwise the person attempting to spread the gospel simply becomes looked at as an annoyance or, worse, becomes marginalized. I have dealt with a lot of folks in companies who have a negative view of PHP, MySQL, Linux, BSD, etc. simply because they have had their intelligence insulted, or been irritated, or been completely confused, or been preached to one too many times by well-meaning proponents of Open Source solutions who are either unable to communicate or simply victim to their own enthusiasm. There is probably nothing that doesn't have an Open Source solution in the abstract sense-- but in the real world of existing systems, personnel, and politics, the best solution may not be technically the fastest or even the most stable. The right tool for the job is my motto, and that might mean SQL Server, it might mean MySQL. It might mean a Linux server, it might mean Win2K. There is no single panacea. c -- Chris Lott http://www.chrislott.org/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Re: getting a LAMP job in this economy
Chris Lott wrote: It's hard, I think in part, because of the reputation PHP is getting in some circles. Many of the people evangelizing it don't know anything else, and simply extoll all the 'wonderful' virtues of it. YES! This poisoning of the well has happened and continues to happen. The problem is that being an evangelist is a wonderful thing-- but you have to be quite skilled at communication to be a successful one :) Otherwise the person attempting to spread the gospel simply becomes looked at as an annoyance or, worse, becomes marginalized. I have dealt with a lot of folks in companies who have a negative view of PHP, MySQL, Linux, BSD, etc. simply because they have had their intelligence insulted, or been irritated, or been completely confused, or been preached to one too many times by well-meaning proponents of Open Source solutions who are either unable to communicate or simply victim to their own enthusiasm. Right on. It's doing far more damage than all the stuff MS, Sun, Allaire and others can conspire to throw at our community, imo. Perhaps we should get together on a 'PHP advocacy HOWTO' ? :) There is probably nothing that doesn't have an Open Source solution in the abstract sense-- but in the real world of existing systems, personnel, and politics, the best solution may not be technically the fastest or even the most stable. The right tool for the job is my motto, and that might mean SQL Server, it might mean MySQL. It might mean a Linux server, it might mean Win2K. There is no single panacea. Amen - except that you need to be able to discern WHY something is 'right'. If a consultant tells one of my clients that SQL Server is the way to go, I have to explain to my client (1) the benefits/drawbacks of SQL Server and (2) whatever other agenda that consultant may have. What's the 'best tool' for HIM/HER may not be for us. I've come across this more times than I care to recall. And yes, our recommendations are loaded towards what's best for us, no doubt, but we generally have price on our side to start with (lower or no licensing fees) and a satisfied clients who've 'taken the PHP plunge' before them, so they don't feel like they're the first ones trying this 'new fangled PHP stuff'. Michael Kimsal http://www.tapinternet.com/php PHP Training Courses 734-480-9961 -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [PHP] Re: getting a LAMP job in this economy
I like this view. It's not so much a technology we're all speaking as much as a language. Computers are computers and while linux is fun and kick's ass sometimes you just need to get a job done. tools are tools and php rules until php rules! john l It's hard, I think in part, because of the reputation PHP is getting in some circles. Many of the people evangelizing it don't know anything else, and simply extoll all the 'wonderful' virtues of it. YES! This poisoning of the well has happened and continues to happen. The problem is that being an evangelist is a wonderful thing-- but you have to be quite skilled at communication to be a successful one :) Otherwise the person attempting to spread the gospel simply becomes looked at as an annoyance or, worse, becomes marginalized. I have dealt with a lot of folks in companies who have a negative view of PHP, MySQL, Linux, BSD, etc. simply because they have had their intelligence insulted, or been irritated, or been completely confused, or been preached to one too many times by well-meaning proponents of Open Source solutions who are either unable to communicate or simply victim to their own enthusiasm. There is probably nothing that doesn't have an Open Source solution in the abstract sense-- but in the real world of existing systems, personnel, and politics, the best solution may not be technically the fastest or even the most stable. The right tool for the job is my motto, and that might mean SQL Server, it might mean MySQL. It might mean a Linux server, it might mean Win2K. There is no single panacea. c -- Chris Lott http://www.chrislott.org/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] /* J. Lewis lamp/php developer livingpages.com */ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Re: getting a LAMP job in this economy
On Thursday, January 24, 2002, at 09:32 PM, Michael Kimsal wrote: Being able to positively improve an employer's bottom line is always a plus you can bring to any 'job' - you're there to do work and make them money too. If you can help by furthering the use of Linux/PHP/etc due to the licensing cost issues, so much the better. This is a good point. I'm using the LAMP scheme right now for my employer (though I haven't yet explained the advantages). I'm hoping that, when I'm done, I can provide a report explaining how much was saved by going with open source solutions -- right now the only two purchases made specifically for my project were 1) Mac OS X 10.1 2) Extra memory for the Linux server (and I'd like them to buy me the full version of BBedit so I don't have to use the lite -- $89 upgrade) Is there a resource that helps me weigh the cost-effectiveness of the choices I made? (Note that the savings aren't as great as you might think -- we already have Oracle and a hosting service that provides ASP, but I wonder what the licenses would have cost us.) Erik -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Re: getting a LAMP job in this economy
Erik Price wrote: This is a good point. I'm using the LAMP scheme right now for my employer (though I haven't yet explained the advantages). I'm hoping that, when I'm done, I can provide a report explaining how much was saved by going with open source solutions -- right now the only two purchases made specifically for my project were 1) Mac OS X 10.1 2) Extra memory for the Linux server (and I'd like them to buy me the full version of BBedit so I don't have to use the lite -- $89 upgrade) Is there a resource that helps me weigh the cost-effectiveness of the choices I made? (Note that the savings aren't as great as you might think -- we already have Oracle and a hosting service that provides ASP, but I wonder what the licenses would have cost us.) I don't think there are any resources that address that because it's really very broad and to some extent a bit subjective. Your point about your hosting provider already providing ASP is part of that. It's already provided for free - well, you're not getting 100% of that machine. There may be 200 other accounts on there, all of which affect your performance. Same is true in shared linux accounts, no doubt, but my experience has been that LAMP is better at resource sharing/balancing without bogging down (anecdotal only - I have no hard proof). But if you're noticing slow downs on your site, especially if you're getting decent traffic, you have to upgrade to a dedicated machine. At that point, the licensing costs come in to play, although MS has extremely competitive ASP (app service provider) plans for hosting SQLserver, ASP, etc to try to minimize the cost for hosting providers doing dedicated machines. Free is still free, and they can't quite beat that yet. :) If you're stuck in 'hosting' environments, you'll be hard pressed to show the cost savings, because it's often $5-$10/month difference for comparable ASP or LAMP setups. The difference comes in, imo, in upgrading to full server(s). You've got the one time hit, plus the cost of PCAnywhere or something (you could live with VNC I guess) to do remote admin, plus the security track record. I'd be happy to discuss more of this with you if you want to take it off list if this is getting too offtopic. Michael Kimsal http://www.tapinternet.com/php PHP Training Courses 734-480-9961 -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Re: getting a LAMP job in this economy
I had previously been hired by a CBS affiliate/sporting news provider and 80% of the reason was my knowledge of PHP. Although I am no longer with that job, I found it to be extremely valuable for my resume. While you won't find PHP on their main website (they use Vignette Story Server and Oracle), a large chunk of backend code and system management utilities, including a trouble ticket system, were written with PHP. Quoting Mike Frazer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Just got a job as a PHP Programmer, actually. Kinda rare in this area, I guess it was a matter of being in the right place at the right time with the right skills. I've been hired twice in the past based at least in part on my PHP skills, as well. Mike Vincent Stoessel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... On another list that I am on someone made this very bold statement: I've seen a lot of jobs for ColdFusion Oracle or MS SQL server experience combinations. Don't let anyone fool you, PHP/MySQL is not going to land you a job [;)] now, as someone that was making avery good living doing Linux based web application development last year and now among the jobless I am beginning to question the validity of having all of my eggs in the LAMP (linux apache mysql php) basket. I just recently built a NT4 to do some win based development on. I still have not installed any development enviroment cause it just feels so alien. Has anyone else out there feeling the pressure of going to the win32 side to pay the bills. Thoughts? -- Vincent Stoessel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Linux and Java Application Developer (301) 362-1750 AIM, MSN: xaymaca2020 , Yahoo Messenger: vks_jamaica -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - This mail sent through CDM Sports Webmail. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Re: getting a LAMP job in this economy
I am actually an ASP developer who is trying to take my current company in the LAMP direction. I have been working on ASP/Win32/Just about everything else Microsoft can throw out, and now I am really realizing the benifits of a LAMP environment. I think during the gold rush, a lot of small businesses went with the MSSQL platform and all the cronies surrounding it because it was very quick, rather cheap (initially) to fill the positions and the only stick was with licensing. Now you are seeing companies with huge overheads and low income falling to the floor. Those that always tried to maintain an equal overhead versus income (a business plan), you see all that many more Win32 people (like myself) branching out in ways to help the company to grow yet not incur more expenses as it does. (Didnt I hear the licenseing of MS products in going up?) So I do believe that the true time for LAMP is coming. Heck, it may actually be the thing that can pull the IT industry out of the slump if adopted by more companies. Dollars can better be spent paying bright individuals like all of us to be more creative with less overhead. Just my 2 cents anyways :P Ben - Original Message - From: Michael Kimsal [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Vincent Stoessel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Php General Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 7:32 PM Subject: [PHP] Re: getting a LAMP job in this economy Vincent Stoessel wrote: On another list that I am on someone made this very bold statement: I've seen a lot of jobs for ColdFusion Oracle or MS SQL server experience combinations. Don't let anyone fool you, PHP/MySQL is not going to land you a job [;)] now, as someone that was making avery good living doing Linux based web application development last year and now among the jobless I am beginning to question the validity of having all of my eggs in the LAMP (linux apache mysql php) basket. I just recently built a NT4 to do some win based development on. I still have not installed any development enviroment cause it just feels so alien. Has anyone else out there feeling the pressure of going to the win32 side to pay the bills. Thoughts? This really depends on how you want to work and/or approach 'jobs'. Do you consider a job a place to go for 40 hours a week and get a paycheck? Or is it more than that? Being able to positively improve an employer's bottom line is always a plus you can bring to any 'job' - you're there to do work and make them money too. If you can help by furthering the use of Linux/PHP/etc due to the licensing cost issues, so much the better. I will never again (bold words I know) *merely* have a job where I'm told what to do by someone who doesn't really give a rat's ass about me. :) (been there done that too many times). When approaching a job now, I would be more proactive about what impact I can make in a company, and the Linux/PHP skills/experience would be a facet of that, no doubt. Sure, there are many people advertising for ASP developers, etc. Perhaps they're not finding qualified people, and need to advertise? I'd say PHP/MYSQL won't land you a job, but neither will CF, or Java, or anything else. You need to sell YOURSELF, and if you sell your ability to further a company's objectives (make money) many won't care what you use, or at least won't care to the point of restricting you. There will always be shops that are CF only, or MS only, or whatever. But there's a (growing, I think) number of businesses out there that simply need to have things work - be the person who helps them achieve their goals, and you'll succeed just fine. Michael Kimsal http://www.tapinternet.com/php/ PHP Training Courses 734-480-9961 -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Re: getting a LAMP job in this economy
Mike, While I sure hope you are right, could you please try to send the message to this list only once (i.e. check your To: to make sure you aren't doubling up on the list address). I might add to your comments the recent security problems with almost every one of M$ internet products - not that I'm complaining, it does generate some consulting business for me on the client side :) Thanks, John We're all in a good position right now. The economy is beginning a strong rebound, the pretenders have been weeded out, and a lot of companies are now beginning to see both the technical AND financial benefits of open-source technology. No buying licenses for server systems that provide less stability and a lot more fluff (draw your own conclusions from that :) ). Open source systems may require a little more configuration and actual effort to get off the ground, but if done right they will stay where you put them instead of crashing back down and validating Newton's law of gravity. Finding a LAMP job (or something including any of those components) will become easier as the positions become more plentiful. Come March you'll see a noticeable change. Please mark my words :) Mike Frazer -- /* SteeleSoft Consulting John Steele - Systems Analyst/Programmer * We also walk dogs... Dynamic Web Design PHP/MySQL/Linux/Hosting * www.steelesoftconsulting.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] */ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Re: getting a LAMP job in this economy
Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever compiled an extensive point-by-point comparison of the advantages of LAMP vs. the other alternatives? If not, I'd be interested in starting something along those lines. That would be helpful to many people I think, so anyone who has ideas on what specifically to compare, ie learning curves, license fees, performance, etc, please email me with them, and we can put together a comprehensive document which will be beneficial to all of us. Robert -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [PHP] Re: getting a LAMP job in this economy
Robert J. Cissell wrote: Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever compiled an extensive point-by-point comparison of the advantages of LAMP vs. the other alternatives? If not, I'd be interested in starting something along those lines. That would be helpful to many people I think, so anyone who has ideas on what specifically to compare, ie learning curves, license fees, performance, etc, please email me with them, and we can put together a comprehensive document which will be beneficial to all of us. Robert If you get something, please share it. I suspect that pretty much anything you compile will be akin to a religious war no matter what, because once you get past licensing costs, everything else is fairly subjective. learning curve is a huge one. ANYONE can be up in a few days with ASP, CF, PHP, whatever. And some people can be very proficient quickly in each, but it depends on your background. VB people will flock to ASP, C people will go to PHP, etc. Each side claims 'learning curve' benefits, and it's pretty much hogwash, imo - you can learn something easier if you're already familiar with something else that's similar. You will most likely end up preaching to the choir. :) The eweek article from Oct 2000 showed PHP beating CF - PHP being about 95% fast if I recall, and in price. But the editors awarded CF 'top choice' because of 'ease of development'. Personally, I'd skip the CF licensing and pay someone a bit more to learn PHP or Perl and have a better grasp on what they're doing ($=incentive) in most cases, but hey, I'm not eweek. CF must be *REALLY* easy to develop to justify that cost. So, you can generally show LAMP to be faster and cheaper than most alternatives for *most* web projects (leaving aside the one high-end example someone would always throw in). Faster and cheaper - anecdotally fewer stability issues. Of course there's no 'scientific' proof (which MS would demand) so you're stuck with anecdotes - but there are hundreds of thousands of anecdotes of LAMP stability to choose from - I've got several if you want them. :) In the end it'll come down to religion and a price/performance argument, and religion will win more often than not (but hopefully that's changing!) Michael Kimsal http://www.tapinternet.com/php PHP Training Courses 734-480-9961 -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To contact the list administrators, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
