Re: [sage-devel] Please test this if you have OS X 10.8

[Ivan Andrus]

On Feb 12, 2013, at 3:15 PM, Michael Welsh  wrote:
> On 13/02/2013, at 11:09 AM, Ivan Andrus  wrote:
>> On Feb 12, 2013, at 2:17 PM, Michael Welsh  wrote:
>> 
>>> On 13/02/2013, at 9:53 AM, kcrisman  wrote:
 Hi!  Thanks to very hard work by Ivan Andrus, we have Sage double-clicking 
 sws files on Mac.  We just need one more test to make it complete.
 
 If you DO have OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion but have NOT ever made something 
 that makes sws files open with Sage.app on a double-click, please 
 download 
 http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/palmieri/misc/sage-Sage-testing-doubleclick-x86_64-Darwin.dmg
  
 and try it out.  We particularly would like people who don't even have 
 Sage.app to try this, since with multiple versions of Sage.app there can 
 be 
 natural confusion as to which one is supposed to open the file, though in 
 principle this should work there as well.  Thanks to John Palmieri for 
 helping with this.
 
 - kcrisman
>>> 
>>> It worked fine, though I had Sage open already and that caused some issues. 
>>> I've never use a .app on this machine or even sws files. The app that I 
>>> just copied on is the only thing that can open it (according to the 
>>> right-click menu)
>> 
>> What issues did it cause?
> When I quit the app, it killed the notebook server I had running. As the sws 
> file I double-clicked was saved a few seconds beforehand from the running 
> worksheet, that confused me.

Ah, I see how that could be confusing.  FWIW, if you hold option while 
quitting, it won't kill the server.  Maybe I could make it more obvious what 
will happen…  Or maybe it should warn you, perhaps only if it didn't start the 
server itself.

> As did the "your server is starting up" tab, which IMO should go away when 
> the server actually starts.

I agree.  Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to get rid of it without writing some 
applescript for every different browser out there.  But maybe that wouldn't be 
so bad.  Any suggestions on how to improve the wording etc. in meantime would 
be appreciated.

>> And what do you mean by Sage was already open?  It should handle a notebook 
>> server running without any problems.
> I had a notebook server running. It handled it fine by taking it over, which 
> was not entirely what I expected.

I see.

Thanks,
Ivan

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Re: [sage-devel] Please test this if you have OS X 10.8

[Michael Welsh]

On 13/02/2013, at 11:09 AM, Ivan Andrus  wrote:
> On Feb 12, 2013, at 2:17 PM, Michael Welsh  wrote:
> 
>> On 13/02/2013, at 9:53 AM, kcrisman  wrote:
>>> Hi!  Thanks to very hard work by Ivan Andrus, we have Sage double-clicking 
>>> sws files on Mac.  We just need one more test to make it complete.
>>> 
>>> If you DO have OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion but have NOT ever made something 
>>> that makes sws files open with Sage.app on a double-click, please 
>>> download 
>>> http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/palmieri/misc/sage-Sage-testing-doubleclick-x86_64-Darwin.dmg
>>>  
>>> and try it out.  We particularly would like people who don't even have 
>>> Sage.app to try this, since with multiple versions of Sage.app there can be 
>>> natural confusion as to which one is supposed to open the file, though in 
>>> principle this should work there as well.  Thanks to John Palmieri for 
>>> helping with this.
>>> 
>>> - kcrisman
>> 
>> 
>> It worked fine, though I had Sage open already and that caused some issues. 
>> I've never use a .app on this machine or even sws files. The app that I just 
>> copied on is the only thing that can open it (according to the right-click 
>> menu)
> 
> What issues did it cause?
When I quit the app, it killed the notebook server I had running. As the sws 
file I double-clicked was saved a few seconds beforehand from the running 
worksheet, that confused me. As did the "your server is starting up" tab, which 
IMO should go away when the server actually starts.
> And what do you mean by Sage was already open?  It should handle a notebook 
> server running without any problems.
I had a notebook server running. It handled it fine by taking it over, which 
was not entirely what I expected.
> 
> -Ivan



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Re: [sage-devel] Please test this if you have OS X 10.8

[Ivan Andrus]

On Feb 12, 2013, at 2:25 PM, Benjamin Jones  wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 12:53 PM, kcrisman  wrote:
>> Hi!  Thanks to very hard work by Ivan Andrus, we have Sage double-clicking
>> sws files on Mac.  We just need one more test to make it complete.
>> 
>> If you DO have OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion but have NOT ever made something that
>> makes sws files open with Sage.app on a double-click, please download
>> http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/palmieri/misc/sage-Sage-testing-doubleclick-x86_64-Darwin.dmg
>> and try it out.  We particularly would like people who don't even have
>> Sage.app to try this, since with multiple versions of Sage.app there can be
>> natural confusion as to which one is supposed to open the file, though in
>> principle this should work there as well.  Thanks to John Palmieri for
>> helping with this.
>> 
>> - kcrisman
> 
> Works for me (OS X 10.8.2). I've never installed any .app Sage distro
> on this particular machine before. I downloaded this one, dragged to
> /Applications, waiting quite a while, and then tried double clicking a
> sws I had laying around. Worked perfectly. Nice work!
> 
> The helpful messages that pop up along the way have really improved
> too! I think this will go a long way to getting new folks started with
> Sage on OS X.

Thanks for testing.  Hopefully not just new users will like it.  :-)

-Ivan

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Re: [sage-devel] Please test this if you have OS X 10.8

[Ivan Andrus]

On Feb 12, 2013, at 1:59 PM, Michael Welsh  wrote:
> On 13/02/2013, at 9:53 AM, kcrisman  wrote:
>> 
>> We particularly would like people who don't even have 
>> Sage.app to try this, since with multiple versions of Sage.app there can be 
>> natural confusion as to which one is supposed to open the file, though in 
>> principle this should work there as well.
> 
> Just to confirm: sage.app is different from self-compiled versions?

You can build the app yourself.  It's a GUI shell that you can use to manage 
Sage.  e.g. There is a menu item to start and stop the server, to start new 
shell sessions etc.

-Ivan

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Re: [sage-devel] Please test this if you have OS X 10.8

[Ivan Andrus]

On Feb 12, 2013, at 2:17 PM, Michael Welsh  wrote:

> On 13/02/2013, at 9:53 AM, kcrisman  wrote:
>> Hi!  Thanks to very hard work by Ivan Andrus, we have Sage double-clicking 
>> sws files on Mac.  We just need one more test to make it complete.
>> 
>> If you DO have OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion but have NOT ever made something 
>> that makes sws files open with Sage.app on a double-click, please 
>> download 
>> http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/palmieri/misc/sage-Sage-testing-doubleclick-x86_64-Darwin.dmg
>>  
>> and try it out.  We particularly would like people who don't even have 
>> Sage.app to try this, since with multiple versions of Sage.app there can be 
>> natural confusion as to which one is supposed to open the file, though in 
>> principle this should work there as well.  Thanks to John Palmieri for 
>> helping with this.
>> 
>> - kcrisman
> 
> 
> It worked fine, though I had Sage open already and that caused some issues. 
> I've never use a .app on this machine or even sws files. The app that I just 
> copied on is the only thing that can open it (according to the right-click 
> menu)

What issues did it cause?  And what do you mean by Sage was already open?  It 
should handle a notebook server running without any problems.

-Ivan

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Re: [sage-devel] Please test this if you have OS X 10.8

[Benjamin Jones]

On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 12:53 PM, kcrisman  wrote:
> Hi!  Thanks to very hard work by Ivan Andrus, we have Sage double-clicking
> sws files on Mac.  We just need one more test to make it complete.
>
> If you DO have OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion but have NOT ever made something that
> makes sws files open with Sage.app on a double-click, please download
> http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/palmieri/misc/sage-Sage-testing-doubleclick-x86_64-Darwin.dmg
> and try it out.  We particularly would like people who don't even have
> Sage.app to try this, since with multiple versions of Sage.app there can be
> natural confusion as to which one is supposed to open the file, though in
> principle this should work there as well.  Thanks to John Palmieri for
> helping with this.
>
> - kcrisman

Works for me (OS X 10.8.2). I've never installed any .app Sage distro
on this particular machine before. I downloaded this one, dragged to
/Applications, waiting quite a while, and then tried double clicking a
sws I had laying around. Worked perfectly. Nice work!

The helpful messages that pop up along the way have really improved
too! I think this will go a long way to getting new folks started with
Sage on OS X.

--
Benjamin Jones

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Re: [sage-devel] Please test this if you have OS X 10.8

[Michael Welsh]

On 13/02/2013, at 9:53 AM, kcrisman  wrote:
> Hi!  Thanks to very hard work by Ivan Andrus, we have Sage double-clicking 
> sws files on Mac.  We just need one more test to make it complete.
> 
> If you DO have OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion but have NOT ever made something 
> that makes sws files open with Sage.app on a double-click, please 
> download 
> http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/palmieri/misc/sage-Sage-testing-doubleclick-x86_64-Darwin.dmg
>  
> and try it out.  We particularly would like people who don't even have 
> Sage.app to try this, since with multiple versions of Sage.app there can be 
> natural confusion as to which one is supposed to open the file, though in 
> principle this should work there as well.  Thanks to John Palmieri for 
> helping with this.
> 
> - kcrisman


It worked fine, though I had Sage open already and that caused some issues. 
I've never use a .app on this machine or even sws files. The app that I just 
copied on is the only thing that can open it (according to the right-click menu)

Michael

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Re: [sage-devel] Please test this if you have OS X 10.8

[Michael Welsh]

On 13/02/2013, at 9:53 AM, kcrisman  wrote:
> 
> We particularly would like people who don't even have 
> Sage.app to try this, since with multiple versions of Sage.app there can be 
> natural confusion as to which one is supposed to open the file, though in 
> principle this should work there as well.

Just to confirm: sage.app is different from self-compiled versions?

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[sage-devel] Please test this if you have OS X 10.8

[kcrisman]

Hi!  Thanks to very hard work by Ivan Andrus, we have Sage double-clicking 
sws files on Mac.  We just need one more test to make it complete.

If you DO have OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion but have NOT ever made something 
that makes sws files open with Sage.app on a double-click, please 
download 
http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/palmieri/misc/sage-Sage-testing-doubleclick-x86_64-Darwin.dmg
 
and try it out.  We particularly would like people who don't even have 
Sage.app to try this, since with multiple versions of Sage.app there can be 
natural confusion as to which one is supposed to open the file, though in 
principle this should work there as well.  Thanks to John Palmieri for 
helping with this.

- kcrisman

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[sage-devel] Re: What can we change on a parent?

[Nils Bruin]

On Feb 11, 11:30 pm, Robert Bradshaw 
wrote:
> I don't think we should have a separate ZZ whose category is
> EuclideanDomains another one whose category is Rings, another one
> whose category is AbelianGroups, and another one whose category is
> Sets. Perhaps this is a special case, as this is a nested set of
> subcategories.

Absolutely. I think that is more a matter of choosing which objects we
actually want to be able to construct. Actually, 1 dimensional free ZZ-
modules and infinite cyclic abelian groups already exist for good
reason, as special cases of more general constructions, so basically
we already have these.

> I would propose that (1) every method (within reason) whose result
> depends on the category take a category as an argument and (2) for
> most (but perhaps not all) methods this defaults to the category in
> which the element was constructed, regardless of specializations that
> are later discovered. Perhaps this could be (partially) enforced with
> a decorator for such methods.

Indeed. In particular, it means that a parent knows in which category
it was originally created. I think that's the important observation
here (the rest is a matter of how to best make use of the information
available). This is because:

 1) Parents are supposed to model category object and as such HAVE a
category of which they are a member. This category is part of their
identity.
 2) Parents must be immutable because they are shared. Therefore this
category cannot change.

In addition, parents may keep track of their "refined category" which
reflects additional structure discovered during computations. It may
well be that this "refined category" plays a more important role
internally because it is useful in method dispatch.

Currently "refined category" is called "_category" and I don't think
we're tracking the creation category. Perhaps we don't have to store
it explicitly if it is recoverable via other means, but I doubt it.

The in my opinion more logical naming scheme would be "category" and
"refined_category". However, if for compatibility reasons this has to
be "_creation_category" and "_category" instead, I think that would be
acceptable.

I concur with Robert that it's quite reasonable to have methods that
can inquire about the properties of a parent in a category other than
its creation category. Logically that's just a composition with a
functor. In most cases the functor application by itself would serve
little purpose, so we can just store the composition. I'm not so sure
that parametrizing by category leads to particularly efficient and
nice code. Different method names may work there as well. It would be
the generic routine (if required) that has to dispatch by
"creation_category" then.

I suspect that in practice category refinement will be a relatively
rare occurrence, with probably rather minimal effects. However, if
we're going to allow for it we'll have to specify clear semantics for
it.

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Simulation in Sage

[Thierry Dumont]

Le 12/02/2013 11:55, Volker Braun a écrit :

+1 for having a FEM implementation.

I've seen some of the codes in numerical GR (Cactus) and they are
definitely not "generic FEM" implementations that one could apply to a
wide range of problems ;-)

On Tuesday, February 12, 2013 7:12:42 AM UTC, tdumont wrote:

I like FreeFem++
http://www.freefem.org/ff++/index.htm

because it does not hide mathematics! But integrating it in Sage would
certainly be a hard task, I think. Any opinion about this?


It already has a shared library interface, thats a great plus. I think
it would be easy to tie it in with a simple ipc messaging system much
like the Mathematica mathlink demo I posted about a month ago.

What we primarily need to figure out is how to present the functionality
to the user. I guess thats basically three pieces of information: mesh
construction/refinement, the PDE itself, and boundary data. It would be
nice if you could just throw a symbolic PDE in there and get out
something reasonable...


I know very well the guys in University Paris VI which develop FreeFem; 
FreeFem is widely used in the community of PDEs in France and even, a 
lot of money has been put in the development.

I start a discusssion with them.

Yours
t.


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<>

Re: [sage-devel] Re: Simulation in Sage

[Volker Braun]

+1 for having a FEM implementation. 

I've seen some of the codes in numerical GR (Cactus) and they are 
definitely not "generic FEM" implementations that one could apply to a wide 
range of problems ;-)

On Tuesday, February 12, 2013 7:12:42 AM UTC, tdumont wrote:
>
> I like FreeFem++ 
> http://www.freefem.org/ff++/index.htm 
> because it does not hide mathematics! But integrating it in Sage would 
> certainly be a hard task, I think. Any opinion about this?
>

It already has a shared library interface, thats a great plus. I think it 
would be easy to tie it in with a simple ipc messaging system much like the 
Mathematica mathlink demo I posted about a month ago. 

What we primarily need to figure out is how to present the functionality to 
the user. I guess thats basically three pieces of information: mesh 
construction/refinement, the PDE itself, and boundary data. It would be 
nice if you could just throw a symbolic PDE in there and get out something 
reasonable...


 

>
> -in my country, many people use matlab only for graphics; Sage as good 
> graphics, but not yet exactly at the same level as matlab. 
>
> -parallelism: matlab as some interesting things...Sage has only mpi and 
> "forks"... 
>
> So, there is much to do (which is great)... 
>
> t.d. 
>
> >>> 
> >>> Since it is a normal python package, the first step of integrating 
> this 
> >>> into sage is to package it as an experimental SPKG. Then, it is at 
> least 
> >>> very easy to install. 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Fully agree, I did not have making a simulation part of the standard in 
> >> mind. As I said, I created a "personal experimental package" and 
> integrated 
> >> it ito one of my Sage installs. This is absolutly sufficient for my 
> personal 
> >> use. However, if the community thinks it is worthwhile I would put it 
> up for 
> >> review. 
> >> 
> >> Christian 
> >> 
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> >> 
> >> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
>
>

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[sage-devel] Re: Simulation in Sage

[Harald Schilly]

On Monday, February 11, 2013 7:38:08 PM UTC+1, Christian Kuper wrote:
>
> I would be greatly interested in your opinion why you think "no".
>

Well, I wasn't that serious and it's just for me personally. Can you give 
me some examples what this package could do? I'm happy to learn more every 
day :-)

> not fully aware of the Sage philosophy

Stick to the mission statement and don't re-invent the wheel. That's also 
the reason why there are so many 3rd party libraries - at carefully chosen 
versions plus appropriate patches, wrappers and lots of testing. 

H

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Re: [sage-devel] Re: Simulation in Sage

[Harald Schilly]

On Tuesday, February 12, 2013 8:12:42 AM UTC+1, tdumont wrote:
>
> -parallelism: matlab as some interesting things...Sage has only mpi and 
> "forks"... 


... wait until ipython 0.13 is properly inside sage: 
http://ipython.org/ipython-doc/dev/parallel/

H
 

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[sage-devel] Re: Simulation in Sage

[P Purkayastha]

On 02/12/2013 03:12 PM, Thierry Dumont wrote:


-in my country, many people use matlab only for graphics; Sage as good
graphics, but not yet exactly at the same level as matlab.


I would say the graphics _output_ in Sage is better than in matlab - try 
introducing antialiasing of figures in matlab (in case you are not 
getting antialised output). What Sage is missing is a way of 
interactively editing graphics properties.



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