RE: [RCSE] Contest Format

[Tim Bennett]

Marc,
Thanks for the comments. In answer to your questions, we have only tried this 
once, but we have been doing something similar for years for class A sailplanes 
using upstarts with scoring on a four point scale. We use head-to-head results 
rather than landings for tie breaking and rarely have to go beyond that. 

In really good weather, this contest format becomes a landing contest at the 
top just like any TD contest. The difference is that there is more emphasis on 
consistent flying than on times less than max. The course granularity of the 
scoring separates the competitors pretty quickly so you end up with a group 
with all tens and the rest pretty spread out. The landings decide the issue for 
those with the tens and any other ties as well. The one time we did it one guy 
had all tens and there were only two other ties. We didn't get in very many 
rounds, though.

> -Original Message-
> From: Marc Gellart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 3:11 PM
> To: Tim Bennett
> Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
> 
> 
> Tim,
> Good idea, and you had the perfect conditions for this format of 
> MOM, but would this have worked so well if the conditions were 
> near perfect?
> 
> I realize that you can break ties and such, but in the summer up 
> here, even doing seeded MOM in our normal fashion, after six to 
> eight rounds we will have the top five in a twenty point spread 
> sometimes.  I would think that this would get so tight that you 
> would have a knot at the top so close that it might not break.  
> Have you done it when it was nmicer or was this your first time out?
> 
> Marc
> 

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Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

[Mark Triebes]

I'd pay to see Daryl try and run a mile!!

Sorry, D ... couldn't resist.

Mark

Sent via IPhone


On Jan 9, 2008, at 9:47 PM, "Tim Bennett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I have a friend who once bet a guy he could run a mile in four  
minutes.
Thinking himself no fool, the guy took the bet and made a date to  
meet at

the high school track the next morning. Once on the track the guy said
"Ready, Go." and started the watch. My friend stood there looking at  
him.
The guy said, "What are you doing?" My friend said, "Let me know  
when it's
four minutes and I will run the mile as I said." The guy laughed,  
"OK you
got me, I'll pay you, but at four minutes you better run the whole  
mile." My

friend almost died. He hadn't run that far in years.

It is all in the format of the contest.

Tim


-Original Message-
From: Daryl Perkins [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 11:27 PM
To: soaring@airage.com
Subject: RE: [RCSE] Contest Format


No need to even fly at the contest. Let's play paper/ scissors/ rock,
determine a winner, and let the drinking begin. Or no matter what
the task target time is, we'll just all agree to fly 3's. Heck, even
Gordy can make 3... off of a pop off.

Just jumping in and pokin some fun.

Screw that, get me a shovel... I love burying you guys... ;-)



Darylperkins.com LLC.
1600 McCulloch Blvd. 5B
Lake Havasu City, AZ 86403

www.darylperkins.com


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RE: [RCSE] Contest Format

[Tim Bennett]

I have a friend who once bet a guy he could run a mile in four minutes.
Thinking himself no fool, the guy took the bet and made a date to meet at
the high school track the next morning. Once on the track the guy said
"Ready, Go." and started the watch. My friend stood there looking at him.
The guy said, "What are you doing?" My friend said, "Let me know when it's
four minutes and I will run the mile as I said." The guy laughed, "OK you
got me, I'll pay you, but at four minutes you better run the whole mile." My
friend almost died. He hadn't run that far in years.

It is all in the format of the contest.

Tim

> -Original Message-
> From: Daryl Perkins [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 11:27 PM
> To: soaring@airage.com
> Subject: RE: [RCSE] Contest Format
>
>
> No need to even fly at the contest. Let's play paper/ scissors/ rock,
> determine a winner, and let the drinking begin. Or no matter what
> the task target time is, we'll just all agree to fly 3's. Heck, even
> Gordy can make 3... off of a pop off.
>
> Just jumping in and pokin some fun.
>
> Screw that, get me a shovel... I love burying you guys... ;-)
>
>
>
> Darylperkins.com LLC.
> 1600 McCulloch Blvd. 5B
> Lake Havasu City, AZ 86403
>
> www.darylperkins.com

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RE: [RCSE] Contest Format

[Daryl Perkins]

No need to even fly at the contest. Let's play paper/ scissors/ rock,
determine a winner, and let the drinking begin. Or no matter what
the task target time is, we'll just all agree to fly 3's. Heck, even
Gordy can make 3... off of a pop off. 

Just jumping in and pokin some fun. 

Screw that, get me a shovel... I love burying you guys... ;-)



Darylperkins.com LLC.
1600 McCulloch Blvd. 5B
Lake Havasu City, AZ 86403

www.darylperkins.com








>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [RCSE] Contest Format
> From: Craig Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wed, January 09, 2008 10:18 pm
> To: Joe Rodriguez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "soaring@airage.com"
> 
> Joe, 
> What a great idea :-) That's right up their with my " My child was prisoner 
> of the month" Bumper Sticker...
> Craig
> Joe Rodriguez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Why don't we just award 
> everybody a first place sticker and a cool  ride in the special bus just for 
> entering the joy luck club contest.
>   
>  sj
> -

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Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

[Craig Allen]

Joe, 

What a great idea :-) That's right up their with my " My child was prisoner of 
the month" Bumper Sticker...

Craig

Joe Rodriguez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Why don’t we just award 
everybody a first place sticker and a cool  ride in the special bus just for 
entering the joy luck club contest.
  
 sj
- 

Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

[Jon Stone]

Tim,

Thanks for bringing some new ideas & concepts to our beloved sport.  I 
don't agree with everything you said, but you presented your case well.


Open dialog without egos and emotion based responses will do us all well.

Jon Stone

PS.  Yeah, I know "egos and emotion based responses" are par for the 
course on RCSE.  :)


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Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

[Joe Rodriguez]

Why don't we just award everybody a first place sticker and a cool ride in the 
special bus just for entering the joy luck club contest.

sj
  - Original Message - 
  From: Tim Bennett 
  To: soaring@airage.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 7:52 PM
  Subject: RE: [RCSE] Contest Format




  Jim Bacus wrote:
  >
  > "Shafting" the other fellow competitors by completing the task
  > time?  "Unethical?"  ;-)
  >
  > I see it as maximizing my available flying time during a contest
  > event, and playing by the rules of the contest attempting to
  > maximize my score.


  Jim makes a valid point while at the same time highlighting one of the
  weaknesses of seeded MOM as currently practiced. The format creates a
  structure that encourages or even requires what would seem to some as
  unsportsmanlike behavior which belittles and demeans the unsuccessful
  competitor. The rules encourage exploiting any opportunity to "bury" someone
  who has a bad flight by putting on a show of being the only one flying for
  as long as possible while everyone stands and watches. This kind of
  structure is unnecessary and disproportionately rewards the single episode
  of good luck or heroic effort as opposed to consistent superior performance
  round after round. There can be no greater turn off in competition than
  being shafted or buried. While it may be fun for one guy, it is at the
  expense of everyone else. If playing by the rules makes the competition a
  turnoff to many, maybe better rules can correct this. This is an issue of
  the design of the contest format which my earlier idea seeks to address.

  By assigning scores that are limited on the low side, a competitor is not
  able to lose or win the whole contest in one round and there is no need nor
  opportunity to bury or shaft anybody. I think this is a better way to
  structure a contest if you want to insure all competitors have a good time
  and encourage participation while not artificially limiting the performance
  of any competitor.

  I guess a key objective I left out was:

  "Respect for the dignity of all participants."

  I also think "...maximizing available flying time during a contest..." is
  better done by increasing the pace of the event so more rounds can be flown.

  Tim Bennett
  LSF IV

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RE: [RCSE] Contest format

[Tim Bennett]

There is some validity to your point about penalizing the 6 except that in a
"real" contest, 9 points or less out of ten, which corresponds to 900  or
less out of 1000, is a low score. Once the issue is decided lets start the
next flight group.
  -Original Message-
  From: tony estep [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 10:53 PM
  To: soaring@airage.com
  Subject: [RCSE] Contest format


  Original message:
  Your heart is in the right place for club events, but please do not do
this at TNT...
  ===
  Marc is right on. At a "real" contest, this sort of thing is fundamentally
unfair. If everybody launches into the same air and one guy finds the air
and gets max, while 6 out of 7 guys mess up and land early, they have to
earn low scores, in fairness to everybody in the contest. The air was there
and they blew their shot. Setting up some artificial scheme to pardon their
failure is better policy for club contests than for the real thing -- sort
of like allowing free popoffs.

Re: [RCSE] Contest format

[Steve Schneider]

Maybe we should just do politically correct soaring contests and not keep
score, like many kids sports programs these days.  We wouldn't want to hurt
any ones feelings, now would we?

On Jan 9, 2008 10:53 PM, tony estep <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  Original message:
> Your heart is in the right place for club events, but please do not do
> this at TNT...
> ===
> Marc is right on. At a "real" contest, this sort of thing is
> fundamentally  unfair. If everybody launches into the same air and one guy
> finds the air and gets max, while 6 out of 7 guys mess up and land early,
> they have to earn low scores, in fairness to everybody in the contest. The
> air was there and they blew their shot. Setting up some artificial scheme to
> pardon their failure is better policy for club contests than for the real
> thing -- sort of like allowing free popoffs.
>



-- 
Steve Schneider
Buffalo Grove, IL
SOAR Club

[RCSE] Contest format

[tony estep]

Original message:
Your heart is in the right place for club events, but please do not do this 
at TNT...
===
Marc is right on. At a "real" contest, this sort of thing is fundamentally  
unfair. If everybody launches into the same air and one guy finds the air and 
gets max, while 6 out of 7 guys mess up and land early, they have to earn low 
scores, in fairness to everybody in the contest. The air was there and they 
blew their shot. Setting up some artificial scheme to pardon their failure is 
better policy for club contests than for the real thing -- sort of like 
allowing free popoffs.

Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

[John Erickson]

Tim,

I appreciate all the thought you've put into the format.  I'd side with Jim,
however, on flying out the time.  If someone puts the hurt on me I'm not mad
at that person.  I'm mad at myself for not hooking into that air.  I don't
think sportsmanship really comes into play.

I've had the hurt put on me and then have the same guy come over and help
with a broken wing rib or bad battery lead.  That's sportsmanship.

I also like to see when a beginning pilot sneaks out on their own ride while
the experts are way off downwind and scratching.  Nothing builds up your ego
quicker when you're starting out than to have an expert pilot come poach
some air you've been working.

Your suggestion of coming down does move things along, but when the group is
on the ground at 5 minutes and I've taken a big risk being off by myself and
have a done a good job of working it, I don't think my effort should be
worth just a single point more than one of the 5 minute guys.

No matter what the format, it sure beats work :-)

JE
--
John Erickson
LSF V #122


> From: "Tim Bennett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2008 21:52:53 -0600
> To: 
> Subject: RE: [RCSE] Contest Format
> 
> 
> 
> Jim Bacus wrote:
>> 
>> "Shafting" the other fellow competitors by completing the task
>> time?  "Unethical?"  ;-)
>> 
>> I see it as maximizing my available flying time during a contest
>> event, and playing by the rules of the contest attempting to
>> maximize my score.
> 
> 
> Jim makes a valid point while at the same time highlighting one of the
> weaknesses of seeded MOM as currently practiced. The format creates a
> structure that encourages or even requires what would seem to some as
> unsportsmanlike behavior which belittles and demeans the unsuccessful
> competitor. The rules encourage exploiting any opportunity to "bury" someone
> who has a bad flight by putting on a show of being the only one flying for
> as long as possible while everyone stands and watches. This kind of
> structure is unnecessary and disproportionately rewards the single episode
> of good luck or heroic effort as opposed to consistent superior performance
> round after round. There can be no greater turn off in competition than
> being shafted or buried. While it may be fun for one guy, it is at the
> expense of everyone else. If playing by the rules makes the competition a
> turnoff to many, maybe better rules can correct this. This is an issue of
> the design of the contest format which my earlier idea seeks to address.
> 
> By assigning scores that are limited on the low side, a competitor is not
> able to lose or win the whole contest in one round and there is no need nor
> opportunity to bury or shaft anybody. I think this is a better way to
> structure a contest if you want to insure all competitors have a good time
> and encourage participation while not artificially limiting the performance
> of any competitor.
> 
> I guess a key objective I left out was:
> 
> "Respect for the dignity of all participants."
> 
> I also think "...maximizing available flying time during a contest..." is
> better done by increasing the pace of the event so more rounds can be flown.
> 
> Tim Bennett
> LSF IV
> 
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Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

[Marc Gellart]

Well Tim, you just lost me with your last comments.  I guess the home town 
crowd has gotten soft in Texas (was raised in Arlington). Here in OVSS land you 
live and die to get the low save, downwind escape, faint read that no one else 
gets.  We are flying 6 to 7 rounds a day of 10-13 minute flights at  most of 
our contests, so we fly alot, and the guy who gets that fantastic flight is 
held up as the hero, not the zero.  With our seeding, it is like watching golf, 
the last group is the big boys and literally, everyone watches and enjoys the 
battle.  I wish we could seed out the Nats, but just too big to make the time 
work.

This sounds way to politically correct for me, we do not fly outcome based 
soaring here.  Your heart is in the right place for club events, but please do 
not do this at TNT when I finally get to come back.

Marc --- Begin Message ---


Jim Bacus wrote:
>
> "Shafting" the other fellow competitors by completing the task
> time?  "Unethical?"  ;-)
>
> I see it as maximizing my available flying time during a contest
> event, and playing by the rules of the contest attempting to
> maximize my score.


Jim makes a valid point while at the same time highlighting one of the
weaknesses of seeded MOM as currently practiced. The format creates a
structure that encourages or even requires what would seem to some as
unsportsmanlike behavior which belittles and demeans the unsuccessful
competitor. The rules encourage exploiting any opportunity to "bury" someone
who has a bad flight by putting on a show of being the only one flying for
as long as possible while everyone stands and watches. This kind of
structure is unnecessary and disproportionately rewards the single episode
of good luck or heroic effort as opposed to consistent superior performance
round after round. There can be no greater turn off in competition than
being shafted or buried. While it may be fun for one guy, it is at the
expense of everyone else. If playing by the rules makes the competition a
turnoff to many, maybe better rules can correct this. This is an issue of
the design of the contest format which my earlier idea seeks to address.

By assigning scores that are limited on the low side, a competitor is not
able to lose or win the whole contest in one round and there is no need nor
opportunity to bury or shaft anybody. I think this is a better way to
structure a contest if you want to insure all competitors have a good time
and encourage participation while not artificially limiting the performance
of any competitor.

I guess a key objective I left out was:

"Respect for the dignity of all participants."

I also think "...maximizing available flying time during a contest..." is
better done by increasing the pace of the event so more rounds can be flown.

Tim Bennett
LSF IV

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--- End Message ---

Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

[Jeff Steifel]

Absolutely... I agree with Jim.
Throwing dirt their way or being buried is part of the sport.
What if you didn't have man on man, the results would be the same 
anyway. I'm not sure I understand why you would bring the pilots down 
early. You actually compress the groups scores.



James V. Bacus wrote:
"Shafting" the other fellow competitors by completing the task time?  
"Unethical?"  ;-)


I see it as maximizing my available flying time during a contest 
event, and playing by the rules of the contest attempting to maximize 
my score.



At 07:16 PM 1/9/2008, Chuck Anderson wrote:
I never liked the idea of shafting a fellow competitor.  It always 
seemed to me to be unethical.


Jim
Downers Grove, IL
Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR
AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV   R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net

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--
Jeff Steifel

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RE: [RCSE] Contest Format

[Tim Bennett]

Jim Bacus wrote:
>
> "Shafting" the other fellow competitors by completing the task
> time?  "Unethical?"  ;-)
>
> I see it as maximizing my available flying time during a contest
> event, and playing by the rules of the contest attempting to
> maximize my score.


Jim makes a valid point while at the same time highlighting one of the
weaknesses of seeded MOM as currently practiced. The format creates a
structure that encourages or even requires what would seem to some as
unsportsmanlike behavior which belittles and demeans the unsuccessful
competitor. The rules encourage exploiting any opportunity to "bury" someone
who has a bad flight by putting on a show of being the only one flying for
as long as possible while everyone stands and watches. This kind of
structure is unnecessary and disproportionately rewards the single episode
of good luck or heroic effort as opposed to consistent superior performance
round after round. There can be no greater turn off in competition than
being shafted or buried. While it may be fun for one guy, it is at the
expense of everyone else. If playing by the rules makes the competition a
turnoff to many, maybe better rules can correct this. This is an issue of
the design of the contest format which my earlier idea seeks to address.

By assigning scores that are limited on the low side, a competitor is not
able to lose or win the whole contest in one round and there is no need nor
opportunity to bury or shaft anybody. I think this is a better way to
structure a contest if you want to insure all competitors have a good time
and encourage participation while not artificially limiting the performance
of any competitor.

I guess a key objective I left out was:

"Respect for the dignity of all participants."

I also think "...maximizing available flying time during a contest..." is
better done by increasing the pace of the event so more rounds can be flown.

Tim Bennett
LSF IV

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[RCSE] Seeded MOM

[tony estep]

(Original Message):
...I don't like...normalizing the scores. The idea of giving one man 1000 
points for a

flight while giving another flier half as many points for flying

twice as long in a different group is morally wrongIn seeded MOM, 
normalizing isn't needed. That's

already done by making you fly against your peers.

If you don't normalize, it isn't MOM. It's called-flight-order, with all the 
ills of that ancient format that MOM was designed to cure (and does cure). The 
essence of MOM is that your skill is scored against the guys who launched at 
the same time.

Ya know, this time of year there's always a lot of chatter about this or that 
contest rule. But the Nats, WSM, OVSS, F3J, and other big MOM contests have all 
settled on a pretty consistent format: 150 - 200 meter lines, seeded MOM, 
10-minute targets, etc. Whether or not skegs are allowed never has the 
slightest impact on the scores of the top guys, although without skegs there 
can be some pretty scary landing dives and some damaged planes. The consistent 
growth of seeded MOM contests and the increasing
standardization of the contest format is not necessarily a bad thing. The guys 
who
fly a lot of contests seem pretty happy with the world of competition as they 
find it. The bottom line is, if you can outfly your group and you don't do too 
bad around the LZ, you'll do okay; and if not, not. 

[RCSE] Beat Gordy? Hell no one's ever beat me!

[Kevin]

No one has ever beat me. But boy have I spent many years in this hobby beating 
myself. I once said to a fellow group of fliers that I can beat JW on any given 
day, and so can they. They all laughed. But, how many contests have you flown 3 
near-perfect rounds and then screwed the pooch on the 4th? I've done it many 
times. Who beat me? I did. It's about being consistent. And the top fliers are 
just that.

I've placed less than 1st in most contests, and placed 1st in a few. But I 
still went home feeling good. 'Cause I had a damn good time doing it- Flying I 
mean. 

Gordy's right. It boils down to having fun with friends doing something we love.

Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

[James V. Bacus]

"Shafting" the other fellow competitors by completing the task 
time?  "Unethical?"  ;-)


I see it as maximizing my available flying time during a contest 
event, and playing by the rules of the contest attempting to maximize my score.



At 07:16 PM 1/9/2008, Chuck Anderson wrote:
I never liked the idea of shafting a fellow competitor.  It always 
seemed to me to be unethical.


Jim
Downers Grove, IL
Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR
AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV   R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net

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Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

[Chuck Anderson]

At 06:29 PM 1/9/2008, you wrote:
Interesting twist on seeded MoM.  But one of the things I always 
enjoyed in this contest format was getting a good "burial" in a contest. Jim


This is the thing I hate most about MOM.  I never liked the idea of 
shafting a fellow competitor.  It always seemed to me to be 
unethical.  The other thing I don't like about seeded MOM is 
normalizing the scores.  The idea of giving one man 1000 points for a 
flight while giving another flier half as many points for flying 
twice as long in a different group is morally wrong.  I have seen 
this happen.  In seeded MOM, normalizing isn't needed.  That's 
already done by making you fly against your peers.  Normalizing may 
be more beneficial when seeding isn't possible.


Chuck Anderson 


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Re: [RCSE] Contest Format

[James V. Bacus]

At 02:40 PM 1/9/2008, Tim Bennett wrote:


The pace of the contest is improved because once there is only one in the
air, there is no value in continuing to fly so the winner lands and the next
group can fly. No burying the group while everyone waits. Timers are
required to communicate about the time to beat. Scoring is second grade
arithmetic; could not be simpler or quicker. No waiting around to figure the
seeding.



Interesting twist on seeded MoM.  But one of the things I always 
enjoyed in this contest format was getting a good "burial" in a 
contest.  Getting away on a good group of pilots and getting a max 
when the others couldn't make it happen.  It keeps some strategy in 
the game keeping an eye on other good pilots and not letting them 
"break away" on the pack.


Flying it out with all eyes upon you, and hitting that landing with 
everyone watching is a LOT of fun.



Jim
Downers Grove, IL
Member of the Chicago SOAR club, and Team JR
AMA 592537LSF 7560 Level IV   R/C Soaring blog at www.jimbacus.net

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[RCSE] "Maybe the Best 'Airframe' I Have Ever Seen on the Beach...EVER, Puerto V Today"

[GordySoar]

Some of the goofy crap about lines and winches, making more 'challenging'  
contests, etc, finally lead to where they usually do...about someone just  
wanting to let everyone know that they 'beat' Gordy.
 
While I was 'working' today at the Four Seasons Resort beach in  Puerto 
Vallarta, I spied the what may have been the most beautiful 'airframe' I  have 
ever 
seen in the world in the surf. :-)

Which I only mention that because she distracted my thoughts  about the topic 
of 'beating' other pilots...or the underlying ill will behind  using that 
term in the context of us flying contests and the negative  intimidating effect 
it has had on sport -soarers becoming involved in  contests over the years.
 
If you turn on the lights and really look at our hobby, (and it is just  
that) there is not any way for some pilot to 'beat' another pilot in a RC  
contest.  The last beating I got was well deserved and handed to me by my  
father a 
bunch of years back.

The best any of us can do is to do the task perfectly.  If it is a  50 pilot 
competition, 49 guys aren't standing around bleeding from their  nosesthey 
are usually standing around smiling from a day of flying their  sailplanes 
with friends.
 
Jack used the phrase 'I beat Gordy' when at TNT he ended up with a better  
score that Gordy got. And was really proud that he used what he felt was an  
inferior airframe.  I guess we could speculate that he was embarrassed  about 
flying it, so compensated by pointing out that in spite of flying a lesser  
model 
than a Supra (I only use Sharons at TNT's by the way, not the World's  
Heaviest Carbon Supra).  
 
His story implies that he has proven superior skills to Gordy's, which I  
guess implies that adds credibility to his winch, or task ideas.  Often the  
last 
gasp way to reinforce a weak argument is to use dramatic statements.
 
He doesn't mention that it was one of the most fun TNT's I'd ever  flown.  
The incredible low landing zone area save for a max, or the great  feeling of a 
good friend (Mike Lachowski) rushing over to my side to offer some  
suggestions for another save behind the corner tree line is crazy turbulent 
sink  and 
lift pockets, which I wasn't good enough to pull off earning me the  zero part 
of 'hero or zero' type flying. (He did pull off the same corner save  earlier!).
 
You see by us using a word to describe the result of a day of flying like  
'beat', it changes things from fun to personal gain or reduction at the price 
of 
 others.  My goal is always to have all my flying buddies do well, get giant  
launches and perfect landings.  Sure I want my flights to be perfect but  
less than that is still a fun day.
 
I only bring up Shederman's pokes from way off on the site where nobody  
signs their names because it best points out what has been keeping most non  
contest pilots from getting involved.
 
Is there anyone reading the RCSE that hasn't heard one of those guys  respond 
to a contest invitation with the words...I only fly for fun...I'd  never be 
competitive, or you need to have one of the expensive airplanes to  win.
 
You see they perceive contests as being about winning and losing, when in  
fact the most fun of our TD contests is the opportunity to fly with our 
friends, 
 to see how our practice, study and skills ,compare against those of other  
pilots.
 
Jack 'seems' to be a friendly guy who enjoys soaringbut I find that he  
like some of the others who whine about contest being too easy due to long  
strong winch lines are there for some other reason than flying sailplanes.
 
Okay here's one more example: The I Beat Gordy buttons were started by Don  
Richmond as a joke during a Nats...Butch ended wearing a T shirt with that  
written on it (we all miss Butch by the way...well at least those who didn't  
lose a hot dog too him!:-).

Louisville's own Ben Wilson (Nat on line real time correspondent  and LSF 5' 
aspirant) came up with really nice buttons as part of a fund raising  campaign 
to outfit our club's 'adopted' 11 year old pilot with sailplanes and  
radios).  Pilots at events were given a chance earn a chance to contribute  to 
the 
fund, by getting a better score as some contests around the country and  also 
earning a button to show the contributed (by the way our little Lee didn't  let 
those guys down, he raised his grade point average by almost double and is  
now working on LSF4..having won a JR event or two even!).
 
I ended that campaign went I finished up my LSF 4 and needed to get my LSF5  
wins out of the way, sure I love the kid but hey...LSF5 is LSF 5 ! ;-)
 
Maybe there has been too much beating being done at contests by some...  
interestingly enough, I have never heard one of our current or past USA team  
members use the phrase "I beat...". 

Maybe that's why I can't wait to help with raising funds to help get  them to 
Turkey this year.. in American style, plenty of equipment and  well prepared, 
so that they can all put up t

[RCSE]

[Aneil Patel]

Hi RCSE
Can you guys help in finding the best price for JR sailplane servos
DS3421 and DS638BB
Regards Aneil, Auckland - NZ

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9/01/2008 10:16 a.m.
 

[RCSE] Contest Format

[Tim Bennett]

This past November, I was contest director for a monthly contest of the
Soaring League of North Texas at which I tried out a new format for
Man-on-Man competition. It was well received. The format addresses a few of
my pet peeves about soaring contests. I offer this description in the hopes
that readers of the exchange may be interested.

First, a few comments about my objectives:

Fast paced contest.
Scoring and judging must be easy and quick.
Minimal luck factor.
Everyone has a chance to succeed on each flight.
A blown flight does not end your day.
A blown landing does not end your day.
No dropped rounds; all flights count.
Emphasis on flying and consistency.
A contest not won in the air, cannot be won in the landing circle.
No sandbagging or air poaching.

The format is seeded Man-on-Man, which addresses several of the objectives
on its own. The task is duration; not precision. Scoring is based on points
awarded for landing order, last down wins. Landing scores are for breaking
ties only.

Five winches were set up to launch flight groups of up to four flyers. The
usual Man-on-Man procedures regarding pop-offs and line breaks are used.
Winds were fifteen gusting to twenty-five MPH. The time target was set at
nine minutes. Only one max flight was achieved. Lower winds would call for
longer target times, but they need not be impossible, just challenging, for
the format to be valid.

Scoring is based on a ten (10) point scale. The last one down and everyone
who achieves the target max gets first place in the flight group and scores
ten (10) points. Second place gets nine (9) points, third place gets eight
(8) points, and fourth place gets seven (7) points. If there are three
making the max, the fourth flyer gets seven (7) points. If there are two
making the max the other two get eight (8) and seven (7), respectively. In
flight groups of three the lowest score is eight (8) and the lowest score in
groups of two is nine (9) points. No groups of less than two are flown,
except if someone scratches between rounds. A maximum of thirty seconds to
land after the target is allowed or the flight is considered off field. Off
field landings score last place points and all other flyers in the flight
group move up a place if the off field flyer lands after them. You cannot
beat anybody by landing off field no matter how long you flew.

If two flyers get the same time, less than the target, they each get the
points for the place they tied for. For example, if they tied for first,
they get ten (10) points each, if for second, nine (9) points, etc.

Landing points have no role in determining the outcome of individual rounds.
Landing points are recorded and used to break ties in the final standings.
If somebody does not score as well as you in the air, he cannot beat you
with landing points. Landing points are also used to determine seeding and
winch choice. The flyer with the higher landing points, if tied for last
position in a flight group, gets the advantage of flying in the next lower
scoring flight group. Winch choice, which is based on seeding, is resolved
among tied contestants by landing scores. Coin flips and fist fights are
secondary tie breakers in such cases, based on mutual agreement of the tied
flyers.

The pace of the contest is improved because once there is only one in the
air, there is no value in continuing to fly so the winner lands and the next
group can fly. No burying the group while everyone waits. Timers are
required to communicate about the time to beat. Scoring is second grade
arithmetic; could not be simpler or quicker. No waiting around to figure the
seeding.

Larger flight groups can be flown, but to keep everyone in the game, scores
lower than seven (7) are not recommended. Small flight groups give more
contestants a chance to succeed even if they do not win overall. This keeps
interest and enjoyment up. This must be balanced against the time needed to
fly a round. The more rounds the better.

Tim Bennett
LSF IV

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RE: Delays on posts from rcgroups.com (was :RE: [RCSE] Re: Challenge...)

[Lex Mierop]

Yes Chuck, the screening is done to insure spam is NOT forwarded to the
list.  Amazing what a missed word can do to the intent of a message :-)

-l

-Original Message-
From: Chuck Anderson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 10:47 AM
To: Lex Mierop
Cc: soaring@airage.com
Subject: Re: Delays on posts from rcgroups.com (was :RE: [RCSE] Re:
Challenge...)

Thanks for the screening.  I appreciate it.  And, by the way, I think 
you meant to say that screening is done to ensue that spam is NOT 
posted.  :) But I got the message.

Chuck Anderson


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Re: Delays on posts from rcgroups.com (was :RE: [RCSE] Re: Challenge...)

[Chuck Anderson]

Thanks for the screening.  I appreciate it.  And, by the way, I think 
you meant to say that screening is done to ensue that spam is NOT 
posted.  :) But I got the message.


Chuck Anderson

At 11:28 AM 1/9/2008, you wrote:

RCSE sends posts from people directly subscribed to the list immediately
to all those on the list.

If you receive RCSE through a forwarder or post from a web based forum
(such as rcgroups.com), those posts need to be screened by one of the
moderators before it will be posted to the subscribers.  This is all
done to ensure that SPAM and other off-topic posts are sent to everyone
on RCSE.  The downside is that the moderators (Mike L and myself) have
lives, and don't always get around to approving posts.  When there is a
delay, this is why.

-l


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Delays on posts from rcgroups.com (was :RE: [RCSE] Re: Challenge...)

[Lex Mierop]

RCSE sends posts from people directly subscribed to the list immediately
to all those on the list.

If you receive RCSE through a forwarder or post from a web based forum
(such as rcgroups.com), those posts need to be screened by one of the
moderators before it will be posted to the subscribers.  This is all
done to ensure that SPAM and other off-topic posts are sent to everyone
on RCSE.  The downside is that the moderators (Mike L and myself) have
lives, and don't always get around to approving posts.  When there is a
delay, this is why.

-l


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Re: [RCSE] Which Wing Rod?

[Martin Usher]

Having had a carbon joiner (rod) snap on me without warning I'll never 
use one again. They're very strong but if they go they just snap -- 
there's no sign of trouble, just one second you're launching normally, 
the next you have a three piece sailplane.


I've not heard of any problems with carbon tip joiners.

Martin Usher

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hi All,

I'm in the process of desigining my wing for my "road trip" plane and would like to 
ask for recommendations on wing rods.  I have 1/2" ID carbon tubes that I'll be using as  
spars but don't know what to use for the wing joiners (rods.)  The wing will be 4 panels so I 
need to consider joiners for the inner panels as well as the tips.

Thanks for your help,

  

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[RCSE] FOR SALE PIKE PERFECT

[Richard Briggs]

Second  posting.

Selling for a new project, Pike Perfect, Like new, with custom nose  
skeg, Jr 3421elevator, Airtronics 94761 rudder, flaps, aileron, 1200  
mha 5 cell, wing bags, Jr  790 syn 7ch RX,  all this costs $2150.00  
Asking $1900.00 + shipping. If you fly on JR 9303 and you are local I  
can down load my flight program and you can go flying. Call for info  
Rick 562 421 4864.


Photos at   http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=784412

Regards
Rick Briggs
Web Director
http://www.soaringissa.org




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[RCSE] Which Wing Rod?

[jim.prouty]

Hi All,

I'm in the process of desigining my wing for my "road trip" plane and would 
like to ask for recommendations on wing rods.  I have 1/2" ID carbon tubes that 
I'll be using as  spars but don't know what to use for the wing joiners (rods.) 
 The wing will be 4 panels so I need to consider joiners for the inner panels 
as well as the tips.

Thanks for your help,

Jimmy
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Re: [RCSE] Looking for source wing rods

[clarence]

Try HilaunchClarence

http://www.hilaunch.com/

Stan Myers wrote:
I need a wing rod 11/32" diameter with a prebent 8* dihedral.  12 3/4" 
overall length.


Stan

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[RCSE] Looking for source wing rods

[Stan Myers]

I need a wing rod 11/32" diameter with a prebent 8* dihedral.  12 3/4"
overall length.

Stan

[RCSE] Re: Soaring V1 #10616

[denoferth]

You received your mail late because your server was doing maintenance 
or some other work and saved it to another drive to send it to you when 
they finished. We are a commercial company selling used items retail 
and on the net and occasionally have to put up with this kind of crap 
as well. Customers simply do not understand or despond well to this 
type of inconvenience.


Dennis


Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 22:58:42 -0500
From: Jeff Steifel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: rcse 
Subject: Re: [RCSE] Re: Challenge...
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Don't know why but I just got a whole bunch of mail that should have
been sent days ago.
Reading thru the headers it should have left airage on the 3rd and 4th,
but it just got forwarded.
A bunch of you have already been playing with this thread...

Can someone tell me why I just received all these days later.



More new features than ever.  Check out the new AOL Mail ! - 
http://webmail.aol.com

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[RCSE] Words of Appreciation

[Bill Rakozy]

Hey Team!

I may have missed the opening thread to this topic, but Chuck must be
chiming in on what we all appreciate about Gordy!  What a nice thing to do
for a fellow pilot!  Thanks Chuck!

I get really tired of the 'personal bashing' that goes on over RCSE.  I was
thinking of unsubscribing.  Then Chuck comes along and restores my
confidence in this chat group.

There are so many people out there in soaring-land who I have met and would
like to say something nice things about.  I once learned that there is
nothing in life which people appreciate more than hearing their name coming
from the lips of another person.  

Simple words of appreciation are powerful.  

Gosh, I seemed to have gotten a bit carried away!  While you and I may never
meet personally, I just wanted to add that I value and appreciate all of you
who share my interest in 'things which fly'.  And I look forward to meeting
you someday... at some flying field located somewhere on planet earth.  And
when I get to your location, I'll probably find these words carved in the
trunk of a tree... "Gordy was here!"

Epilogue:  
And what about Gordy?  In my opinion, Gordy is a marketing genius.  He's a
one-man-brand whom we all instantly recognize only by his first name!  Like
Nike; Reebok; Dell; JR ... Gordy!  And thanks to you and RCSE, we have made
'Gordy' a household word.  

You gotta love Gordy for who he is.  I appreciate the fact that Gordy is
willing to share his thoughts on a variety of topics, knowing he is going to
take some heat.  That takes some courage.

Too much of anything will make you sick.  But just a little 'Gordy' is like
adding 'hot sauce' to a burrito!  It makes the burrito worth eating!  


Bill Rakozy  :)

P.S.  You can get some 'Gordy' today, at a chat group near you!







-Original Message-
From: Chuck Anderson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 1:01 AM
To: soaring@airage.com
Subject: [RCSE] 14th Anniversary 

Today is the fourteenth anniversary of my meeting Gordy.  It was on a 
cold January day in 1995 that I got a call from Gordy Stahl.  He said 
that he was passing through and would like to meet me.  I couldn't 
remember anybody named Gordy but said OK.  I then looked into my 
records and found that a few years earlier I had sold him an early 
version of my Airfoil Plot program.

It is almost impossible to give directions to my house to anybody not 
familiar with Tullahoma so I said to give me a call when he got off 
the Interstate and I would meet him at the model airplane 
field.  Gordy was driving a pickup towing a long long trailer 
carrying some earth moving machinery.  I live way back in the woods 
on a narrow driveway but some how Gordy made it my drive without 
hitting any oak trees.  Fortunately  I have a circle drive in front 
of my house so he didn't have to turn that rig around because I 
didn't have 40 acres.

I assumed that Gordy wanted to talk about airfoils and plotting 
software but it turned out that he wanted to see my models.  I had 
just finished restoring my Corvette and my shop was still cluttered 
with car tools so most of my models were in storage and I didn't have 
anything to show.  We discussed flying and Gordy remarked that he 
didn't like contests because he didn't like spending a whole day for 
only a few flights.

Chuck Anderson

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Re: [RCSE] Brain Fart Challenge

[Jack Strother]

Thats pretty good, However, I think that 2 rounds of t-6 should be tossed in 
the mix.
That way Gordy can demonstrate his calculating prowess while flying.. the mark 
of a true champion

--
Jack Strother   
Granger, IN 

LSF 2948
LSF Level V  #117
LSF Official 1996 - 2004
CSS Gold



 -- Original message --
From: dharban <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> All right boys, lets turn the talk into walk.
> 
> How about a challenge match between the "mouth" and the "mouth
> breather",  Gordy and Darth?
> 
> I will personally pay one night's motel and dinner for each of the
> protagonists (antagonists?) for the night prior to a match to be held
> in Amarillo (or some other mutually agreeable site) and furnish two
> matched 6V motor 12V winches and other necessary gear for a match with
> the following format:
> 
> Round I -- Four Flights
> 
> 1.   First launch 15 minutes after official local sunrise.  Subsequent
> flights follow 5 minutes after prior flight landing. (BTW I'll also pay
> for all the adult beverages either contestant wants the night prior to
> the match :) )
> 2.   Task AMA task T3 (Precision Duration) modified to 8 minutes.
> 3.  MOM simultaneous launch immediately on launch signal (DSQ if still
> on line 10 seconds after launch signal.)
> 4.   Simultaneous landing time (8 minutes after launch signal). 
> Landing timing called out by contest official.
> 5.   Landing task spot landing, 10 foot graduated landing tape, 100
> point max.
> 6.   Normalized scoring based on AMA Precision Duration Points --
> Landing Points not normalized.
> 7.   Turnaround distance 600 feet.
> 8.   No skegs allowed.
> 
> Round II - Four Flights
> 
> 1.   First launch 1 hour after last flight of Round I.  Subsequent
> flights 5 minutes immediately after finish of prior landing.
> 2.   Task AMA task T3 (Precision Duration) 10 minutes.
> 3.  MOM simultaneous launch immediately on launch signal (DSQ if still
> on line 10 seconds after launch signal.)
> 4.   Simultaneous landing time (10 minutes after launch signal). 
> Landing timing called out by contest official. 
> 5.   Landing task AMA L6
> 6.   Normalized scoring based on AMA Precision Duration Points --
> Landing Points not normalized.
> 7.   Turnaround distance 700 feet.
> 8.  Skegs allowed
> 
> Other general rules.
> 
> 1.  Pilots may use up to two planes in the match -- declared before the
> first launch.
> 2.  No outside assistance of any kind while flying -- no Picolarios, no
> coaches, no verbal communication from anyone to the pilots except the
> time called out by the contest official.
> 3.  Winch setup will have a 300# land line and a 200# pound air line. 
> Air line will be at least 250 feet long.  Pilots will fly out all pop
> offs and all line breaks.  No reflights unless the land line breaks. 
> All lines will be new at the start of the match. 
> 4.  The lowest round score will be thrown out for each pilot.
> 5.  High points win.  Loser buys dinner for the winner and up to two
> contest officials.  Loser agrees to abide by winners comments on this
> thread for two years from the date of the contest.If Gordy loses, he
> will graciously present Darth with one of his infamous "I beat Gordy"
> pins and will include the phrase "Darth Beat Me" on any comments he
> posts on this thread for two years.  If Darth loses he will include the
> phrase "Gordy Beat Me" on any comments he posts on this thread for two
> years.
> 
> Come on curmudgeons, lets get down and have some FUN :)
> 
> 
> -- 
> dharban
> 
> dharban's Profile: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/member.php?u=31927
> View this thread: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=796852
> 
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> generally NOT in text format

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