Re: [OSM-talk-be] Names of Arrondissements

2012-08-31 Thread Wouter Hamelinck 
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 9:18 AM, Sander Deryckere  wrote:
>> In OSM we have the admin_level tag to avoid confusion.
> I don't think that's enough. The meaning of admin_level is strictly Belgian,
> so an OSM-specialist from some other country wouldn't even understand it.
> And it's strictly bound to OSM. So some random user can't understand the
> admin_level either without first searching through the wiki.

The meaning of arrondissements is strictly Belgian. And all tags are
strictly bound to OSM, for the meaning of any admin_level you need the
wiki and anyone using geographical data without looking at the
metadata has no clue what he is doing. Or make that anyone using any
data.

> Btw, in Germany, it's also done this way. See f.e.:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/62379

In Germany "Kreis" is simply written on the signs:
https://www.google.be/search?q=kreis+ortschilt&hl=nl&prmd=imvns&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X
I never saw the name of an arrondissement on a sign.

wouter

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Names of Arrondissements

2012-08-31 Thread Ben Laenen 
On Friday 31 August 2012 19:02:17 Kurt Roeckx wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 01:54:32PM +0200, Sander Deryckere wrote:
> > I would like to discuss the naming of the arrondissements in Belgium.
> 
> My problem with adding them to osm is that we have 3 kinds:
> - administrative;
> - judicial;
> - electoral.
> 
> Which of them do you want to map, and how will you tell them apart
> if you want to map more than 1 of them?

The discussion here is about boundaries with the boundary=administrative tag, 
so it's about the administrative arrondissements here.

For electoral boundaries there is boundary=political as suggested by 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:boundary%3Dpolitical

I'm not aware of existing tags for judicial boundaries, but we can easily make 
one with boundary=judicial.

Ben

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Names of Arrondissements

2012-08-31 Thread Kurt Roeckx 
On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 01:54:32PM +0200, Sander Deryckere wrote:
> I would like to discuss the naming of the arrondissements in Belgium.

My problem with adding them to osm is that we have 3 kinds:
- administrative;
- judicial;
- electoral.

Which of them do you want to map, and how will you tell them apart
if you want to map more than 1 of them?


Kurt


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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Names of Arrondissements

2012-08-31 Thread Sander Deryckere 
2012/8/30 Wouter Hamelinck 

> But the provinces are in that article also mentioned with "Province"
> in the name, which contradicts with article 5 of the constitution. And
> the constitution takes priority over a regular law.
> According to me they put it there exactly to avoid confusion since the
> names of provinces, arrondissements and cities are often the same.
>
> My conclusion: if there can be confusion you explicitly mention what
> you are talking about. If there is no confusion you don't. A search in
> juridat will show you plenty of laws, decrees etc where the names of
> arrondissements are just listed, without each time specifying
> "Administrative Arrondissement".
> If you really would like to add it to the name you would have to do
> the same for the regions and provinces.
>

I have no problem with that. It's a small change and can improve clarity,
certainly for the provinces Antwerpen, Liège and Luxembourg.

>
> In OSM we have the admin_level tag to avoid confusion.
>

I don't think that's enough. The meaning of admin_level is strictly
Belgian, so an OSM-specialist from some other country wouldn't even
understand it. And it's strictly bound to OSM. So some random user can't
understand the admin_level either without first searching through the wiki.

Btw, in Germany, it's also done this way. See f.e.:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/62379

>
> For completeness, it belongs now to the jurisdiction of the regions.
> For Flanders you can find a similar table in the Provinciedecreet of 9
> december 2005.
>
> wouter
>

@Georges,  er zijn inderdaad verschillende soorten arrondissementen, maar
ik denk dat boundary=administrative duidelijk maakt dat het om
administratieve arrondissementen gaat. Hoewel ik er niet tegen gekant ben
om de volledige naam te gebruiken.
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Names of Arrondissements

2012-08-30 Thread Georges De Gruyter 
Voor zover mij bekend kan "arrondissement" verwijzen naar : "administratief
arrondissement" met zeer beperkte adminstratieve bevoegdheden, of
"gerechtelijk arrondissement" waarbij de bevoegdheid van de rechtbanken
wordt vastgelegd.

Een bijkomend probleem is dat de volgende hervorming van justitie
binnenkort (?)  het gebied van de arrondissementen zal gelijkstellen met de
provincies, en het aantal arrondissementen dus aanzienlijk zal verminderen.

Georges

2012/8/30 Wouter Hamelinck 

> But the provinces are in that article also mentioned with "Province"
> in the name, which contradicts with article 5 of the constitution. And
> the constitution takes priority over a regular law.
> According to me they put it there exactly to avoid confusion since the
> names of provinces, arrondissements and cities are often the same.
>
> My conclusion: if there can be confusion you explicitly mention what
> you are talking about. If there is no confusion you don't. A search in
> juridat will show you plenty of laws, decrees etc where the names of
> arrondissements are just listed, without each time specifying
> "Administrative Arrondissement".
> If you really would like to add it to the name you would have to do
> the same for the regions and provinces.
>
> In OSM we have the admin_level tag to avoid confusion.
>
> For completeness, it belongs now to the jurisdiction of the regions.
> For Flanders you can find a similar table in the Provinciedecreet of 9
> december 2005.
>
> wouter
>
> 2012/8/30 Jan Keymeulen :
> > Little bit searching on the site of the Staatsblad/Moniteur Belge gave
> > me following PDF mentioning the names of the arrondissements.
> >
> > http://www.ejustice.just.fgov.be/mopdf/2000/05/31_2.pdf
> >
> > A bit dated though, I suppose since the split of BHV there are some
> > changes in that region.
> >
> > 2012/8/29 Sander Deryckere :
> >> I've been going through some law texts, and I found the following in the
> >> Belgian law (grondwet):
> >>
> >> TITEL I. - HET FEDERALE BELGIE, ZIJN SAMENSTELLING EN ZIJN GRONDGEBIED.
> >>
> >>   Artikel 1. België is een federale Staat, samengesteld uit de
> >> gemeenschappen en de gewesten.
> >>
> >>   Art. 2. België omvat drie gemeenschappen : de Vlaamse Gemeenschap, de
> >> Franse Gemeenschap en de Duitstalige Gemeenschap.
> >>
> >>   Art. 3. België omvat drie gewesten : het Vlaamse Gewest, het Waalse
> Gewest
> >> en het Brusselse Gewest.
> >>
> >>   Art. 4. België omvat vier taalgebieden : het Nederlandse taalgebied,
> het
> >> Franse taalgebied, het tweetalige gebied Brussel-Hoofdstad en het Duitse
> >> taalgebied.
> >>   Elke gemeente van het Rijk maakt deel uit van een van deze
> taalgebieden.
> >>   De grenzen van de vier taalgebieden kunnen niet worden gewijzigd of
> >> gecorrigeerd dan bij een wet, aangenomen met de meerderheid van de
> stemmen
> >> in elke taalgroep van elke Kamer, op voorwaarde dat de meerderheid van
> de
> >> leden van elke taalgroep aanwezig is en voor zover het totaal van de
> >> ja-stemmen in beide taalgroepen twee derden van de uitbebrachte stemmen
> >> bereikt.
> >>
> >>   Art. 5. Het Vlaamse Gewest omvat de provincies Antwerpen, Limburg,
> >> Oost-Vlaanderen, Vlaams-Brabant en West-Vlaanderen. Het Waalse Gewest
> omvat
> >> de provincies Henegouwen, Luik, Luxemburg, Namen en Waals-Brabant.
> >>   De wet kan, indien daartoe redenen zijn, het grondgebied indelen in
> een
> >> groter aantal provincies.
> >>   Een wet kan bepaalde gebieden, waarvan zij de grenzen vaststelt, aan
> de
> >> indeling in provincies onttrekken, ze onder het rechtstreekse gezag
> plaatsen
> >> van de federale uitvoerende macht en ze een eigen statuut toekennen.
> Deze
> >> wet moet worden aangenomen met de meerderheid bepaald in artikel 4,
> laatste
> >> lid.
> >>
> >>   Art. 6. De onderverdelingen van de provincies kunnen alleen door de
> wet
> >> worden vastgesteld.
> >>
> >>   Art. 7. De grenzen van de Staat, van de provincies en van de gemeenten
> >> kunnen niet worden gewijzigd of gecorrigeerd dan krachtens een wet.
> >>
> >> Are the arrondissements even defined by law?
> >>
> >> 2012/8/29 Jan-willem De Bleser 
> >>>
> >>> > Anyway, there's only one way to solve this: find out what the
> official
> >>> > names
> >>> > that are written in the law are, and use those. But I have no idea
> where
> >>> > to
> >>> > find this (if it's in a law of course, I'm even not sure about that,
> but
> >>> > there
> >>> > has to be an official document somewhere that defines them).
> >>>
> >>> I'm with you on this point.
> >>>
> >>> Note that the wiki mentions almost exactly this issue, but using City
> >>> rather than Arrondissement. I've added a link to the voting page.
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> Talk-be mailing list
> >>> Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
> >>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> http

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Names of Arrondissements

2012-08-30 Thread Wouter Hamelinck 
But the provinces are in that article also mentioned with "Province"
in the name, which contradicts with article 5 of the constitution. And
the constitution takes priority over a regular law.
According to me they put it there exactly to avoid confusion since the
names of provinces, arrondissements and cities are often the same.

My conclusion: if there can be confusion you explicitly mention what
you are talking about. If there is no confusion you don't. A search in
juridat will show you plenty of laws, decrees etc where the names of
arrondissements are just listed, without each time specifying
"Administrative Arrondissement".
If you really would like to add it to the name you would have to do
the same for the regions and provinces.

In OSM we have the admin_level tag to avoid confusion.

For completeness, it belongs now to the jurisdiction of the regions.
For Flanders you can find a similar table in the Provinciedecreet of 9
december 2005.

wouter

2012/8/30 Jan Keymeulen :
> Little bit searching on the site of the Staatsblad/Moniteur Belge gave
> me following PDF mentioning the names of the arrondissements.
>
> http://www.ejustice.just.fgov.be/mopdf/2000/05/31_2.pdf
>
> A bit dated though, I suppose since the split of BHV there are some
> changes in that region.
>
> 2012/8/29 Sander Deryckere :
>> I've been going through some law texts, and I found the following in the
>> Belgian law (grondwet):
>>
>> TITEL I. - HET FEDERALE BELGIE, ZIJN SAMENSTELLING EN ZIJN GRONDGEBIED.
>>
>>   Artikel 1. België is een federale Staat, samengesteld uit de
>> gemeenschappen en de gewesten.
>>
>>   Art. 2. België omvat drie gemeenschappen : de Vlaamse Gemeenschap, de
>> Franse Gemeenschap en de Duitstalige Gemeenschap.
>>
>>   Art. 3. België omvat drie gewesten : het Vlaamse Gewest, het Waalse Gewest
>> en het Brusselse Gewest.
>>
>>   Art. 4. België omvat vier taalgebieden : het Nederlandse taalgebied, het
>> Franse taalgebied, het tweetalige gebied Brussel-Hoofdstad en het Duitse
>> taalgebied.
>>   Elke gemeente van het Rijk maakt deel uit van een van deze taalgebieden.
>>   De grenzen van de vier taalgebieden kunnen niet worden gewijzigd of
>> gecorrigeerd dan bij een wet, aangenomen met de meerderheid van de stemmen
>> in elke taalgroep van elke Kamer, op voorwaarde dat de meerderheid van de
>> leden van elke taalgroep aanwezig is en voor zover het totaal van de
>> ja-stemmen in beide taalgroepen twee derden van de uitbebrachte stemmen
>> bereikt.
>>
>>   Art. 5. Het Vlaamse Gewest omvat de provincies Antwerpen, Limburg,
>> Oost-Vlaanderen, Vlaams-Brabant en West-Vlaanderen. Het Waalse Gewest omvat
>> de provincies Henegouwen, Luik, Luxemburg, Namen en Waals-Brabant.
>>   De wet kan, indien daartoe redenen zijn, het grondgebied indelen in een
>> groter aantal provincies.
>>   Een wet kan bepaalde gebieden, waarvan zij de grenzen vaststelt, aan de
>> indeling in provincies onttrekken, ze onder het rechtstreekse gezag plaatsen
>> van de federale uitvoerende macht en ze een eigen statuut toekennen. Deze
>> wet moet worden aangenomen met de meerderheid bepaald in artikel 4, laatste
>> lid.
>>
>>   Art. 6. De onderverdelingen van de provincies kunnen alleen door de wet
>> worden vastgesteld.
>>
>>   Art. 7. De grenzen van de Staat, van de provincies en van de gemeenten
>> kunnen niet worden gewijzigd of gecorrigeerd dan krachtens een wet.
>>
>> Are the arrondissements even defined by law?
>>
>> 2012/8/29 Jan-willem De Bleser 
>>>
>>> > Anyway, there's only one way to solve this: find out what the official
>>> > names
>>> > that are written in the law are, and use those. But I have no idea where
>>> > to
>>> > find this (if it's in a law of course, I'm even not sure about that, but
>>> > there
>>> > has to be an official document somewhere that defines them).
>>>
>>> I'm with you on this point.
>>>
>>> Note that the wiki mentions almost exactly this issue, but using City
>>> rather than Arrondissement. I've added a link to the voting page.
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Talk-be mailing list
>>> Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
>>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
>>
>
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> else that I do.
>   -- Frank Zappa
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Names of Arrondissements

2012-08-30 Thread Jan Keymeulen 
Little bit searching on the site of the Staatsblad/Moniteur Belge gave
me following PDF mentioning the names of the arrondissements.  

http://www.ejustice.just.fgov.be/mopdf/2000/05/31_2.pdf

A bit dated though, I suppose since the split of BHV there are some
changes in that region.

2012/8/29 Sander Deryckere :
> I've been going through some law texts, and I found the following in the
> Belgian law (grondwet):
>
> TITEL I. - HET FEDERALE BELGIE, ZIJN SAMENSTELLING EN ZIJN GRONDGEBIED.
>
>   Artikel 1. België is een federale Staat, samengesteld uit de
> gemeenschappen en de gewesten.
>
>   Art. 2. België omvat drie gemeenschappen : de Vlaamse Gemeenschap, de
> Franse Gemeenschap en de Duitstalige Gemeenschap.
>
>   Art. 3. België omvat drie gewesten : het Vlaamse Gewest, het Waalse Gewest
> en het Brusselse Gewest.
>
>   Art. 4. België omvat vier taalgebieden : het Nederlandse taalgebied, het
> Franse taalgebied, het tweetalige gebied Brussel-Hoofdstad en het Duitse
> taalgebied.
>   Elke gemeente van het Rijk maakt deel uit van een van deze taalgebieden.
>   De grenzen van de vier taalgebieden kunnen niet worden gewijzigd of
> gecorrigeerd dan bij een wet, aangenomen met de meerderheid van de stemmen
> in elke taalgroep van elke Kamer, op voorwaarde dat de meerderheid van de
> leden van elke taalgroep aanwezig is en voor zover het totaal van de
> ja-stemmen in beide taalgroepen twee derden van de uitbebrachte stemmen
> bereikt.
>
>   Art. 5. Het Vlaamse Gewest omvat de provincies Antwerpen, Limburg,
> Oost-Vlaanderen, Vlaams-Brabant en West-Vlaanderen. Het Waalse Gewest omvat
> de provincies Henegouwen, Luik, Luxemburg, Namen en Waals-Brabant.
>   De wet kan, indien daartoe redenen zijn, het grondgebied indelen in een
> groter aantal provincies.
>   Een wet kan bepaalde gebieden, waarvan zij de grenzen vaststelt, aan de
> indeling in provincies onttrekken, ze onder het rechtstreekse gezag plaatsen
> van de federale uitvoerende macht en ze een eigen statuut toekennen. Deze
> wet moet worden aangenomen met de meerderheid bepaald in artikel 4, laatste
> lid.
>
>   Art. 6. De onderverdelingen van de provincies kunnen alleen door de wet
> worden vastgesteld.
>
>   Art. 7. De grenzen van de Staat, van de provincies en van de gemeenten
> kunnen niet worden gewijzigd of gecorrigeerd dan krachtens een wet.
>
> Are the arrondissements even defined by law?
>
> 2012/8/29 Jan-willem De Bleser 
>>
>> > Anyway, there's only one way to solve this: find out what the official
>> > names
>> > that are written in the law are, and use those. But I have no idea where
>> > to
>> > find this (if it's in a law of course, I'm even not sure about that, but
>> > there
>> > has to be an official document somewhere that defines them).
>>
>> I'm with you on this point.
>>
>> Note that the wiki mentions almost exactly this issue, but using City
>> rather than Arrondissement. I've added a link to the voting page.
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-be mailing list
>> Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
>
>
>
> ___
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> Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Names of Arrondissements

2012-08-29 Thread Sander Deryckere 
I've been going through some law texts, and I found the following in the
Belgian law (grondwet):

TITEL 
I.-
HET FEDERALE BELGIE, ZIJN SAMENSTELLING EN ZIJN GRONDGEBIED.

  Artikel 
1.
België is een federale Staat, samengesteld uit de gemeenschappen en de
gewesten.

  
Art.2.
België omvat drie gemeenschappen : de Vlaamse Gemeenschap, de Franse
Gemeenschap en de Duitstalige Gemeenschap.

  
Art.3.
België omvat drie gewesten : het Vlaamse Gewest, het Waalse Gewest en het
Brusselse Gewest.

  
Art.4.
België omvat vier taalgebieden : het Nederlandse taalgebied, het Franse
taalgebied, het tweetalige gebied Brussel-Hoofdstad en het Duitse
taalgebied.
  Elke gemeente van het Rijk maakt deel uit van een van deze taalgebieden.
  De grenzen van de vier taalgebieden kunnen niet worden gewijzigd of
gecorrigeerd dan bij een wet, aangenomen met de meerderheid van de stemmen
in elke taalgroep van elke Kamer, op voorwaarde dat de meerderheid van de
leden van elke taalgroep aanwezig is en voor zover het totaal van de
ja-stemmen in beide taalgroepen twee derden van de uitbebrachte stemmen
bereikt.

  
Art.5.
Het Vlaamse Gewest omvat de provincies Antwerpen, Limburg, Oost-Vlaanderen,
Vlaams-Brabant en West-Vlaanderen. Het Waalse Gewest omvat de provincies
Henegouwen, Luik, Luxemburg, Namen en W

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Names of Arrondissements

2012-08-29 Thread Jan-willem De Bleser 
> Anyway, there's only one way to solve this: find out what the official names
> that are written in the law are, and use those. But I have no idea where to
> find this (if it's in a law of course, I'm even not sure about that, but there
> has to be an official document somewhere that defines them).

I'm with you on this point.

Note that the wiki mentions almost exactly this issue, but using City
rather than Arrondissement. I've added a link to the voting page.

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Names of Arrondissements

2012-08-29 Thread Ben Laenen 
On Wednesday 29 August 2012 14:45:14 Sander Deryckere wrote:
> West-Flanders lists them completely:
> http://www.west-vlaanderen.be/provincie/beleid_bestuur/gemeenten/Pages/defa
> ult.aspxthe same for Flemish-Brabant
> http://www.vlaamsbrabant.be/over-de-provincie/kennismaking/grondgebied-kaar
> tmateriaal/gemeenten-vlaams-brabant/index.jsp. I didn't find other
> provinces listing their arrondissements.

Their maps on the other hand don't: 
http://www.vlaamsbrabant.be/binaries/kaart-vlaamsbrabant-fusiegemeenten-
arrondissementen_tcm5-2605.pdf

> Isn't it a bit strange if municipality, arrondissement and province all
> have the same name? I think having something like "Arrondissement" in the
> name would make it clear at which point in the hierarchy you've arrived.

But why should it be at arrondissement and not at the municipality/city or at 
province level? Why not all of them?


Anyway, there's only one way to solve this: find out what the official names 
that are written in the law are, and use those. But I have no idea where to 
find this (if it's in a law of course, I'm even not sure about that, but there 
has to be an official document somewhere that defines them).

Ben

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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Names of Arrondissements

2012-08-29 Thread Sander Deryckere 
2012/8/29 Ben Laenen 

> On Wednesday 29 August 2012 13:54:32 Sander Deryckere wrote:
> > I would like to discuss the naming of the arrondissements in Belgium.
> >
> > (...)
> >
> >1. When people refer to "Antwerpen", they might mean the province or
> the
> >city, but never the arrondissement.
>
> That's mainly because we never ever talk about arrondissements at all :-)
>

It's also why I want to make it clear it's an arrondissement. If people see
the name "Brugge" without Arrondissement near it, only few people (or
nobody) will think it's the arrondissement you mean.

>
> >If they mean the arrondissement,
> > that's always mentioned. And I believe that the name tag should reflect
> > what people use to refer to the object.
> >2. This is also in the choice of the names of Wikipedia articles: They
> >name the articles Antwerpen
> > (stad)and
> > Antwerpen
> >(provincie)  >,
> >so the appended (stad) or (provincie) is just a clarification. But the
> >article of the arrondissement gets the name Arrondissement
> > Antwerpenwhich
> > means it's part of the name.
>
> I wouldn't take every little thing on wikipedia as absolute fact. I wonder
> if
> they've thought about it themselves. And should it be "Arrondissement" or
> what
> we usually mean with these: "Bestuurlijk arrondissement". Also, if you
> look at
> http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antwerpen_%28gerechtelijk_arrondissement%29or at
> http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrondissement_Antwerpen -- if they thought
> it
> was part of the name they'd have to capitalize the word, which they don't.
>
> If you look at the website of the province of Antwerp:
> http://www.provant.be/bestuur/grondgebied/ it says: "Verdeeld in drie
> bestuurlijke arrondissementen, Antwerpen, Mechelen en Turnhout"
> If it were really part of the name, one would have to repeat
> "arrondissement"
> each time.
>

West-Flanders lists them completely:
http://www.west-vlaanderen.be/provincie/beleid_bestuur/gemeenten/Pages/default.aspxthe
same for Flemish-Brabant
http://www.vlaamsbrabant.be/over-de-provincie/kennismaking/grondgebied-kaartmateriaal/gemeenten-vlaams-brabant/index.jsp.
I didn't find other provinces listing their arrondissements.

>
>
> >3. We can't expect non-OSM members to learn the mapping of the
> different
> >admin_levels. So if someone searches the Kerkstraat in Brugge, and
> they
> >return with a result of the Kerkstraat in Heist inside Brugge, they
> > could wrongly think that they have the right street. While if the result
> > would show the Kerkstraat is in Heist, arrondissement Brugge, the user
> > might know it's wrong.
>
> I don't consider this too much of an issue. If you search a place in OSM,
> you'll now get the whole list municipality - arrondissement - province -
> region - country.
>
>
Isn't it a bit strange if municipality, arrondissement and province all
have the same name? I think having something like "Arrondissement" in the
name would make it clear at which point in the hierarchy you've arrived.

>
> >4. Some people want to index the streets per city (to have a quicker
> >search). Because other countries use different admin_levels for their
> > city boundaries, the only current way is searching the city node and the
> > boundary that goes with it by the name tag. By using the city name for
> the
> > arrondissements, these tools could get confused. (this last part is
> mainly
> > the fault of Germany, where different admin_levels are used for different
> > importance of cities). This also makes that Nominatim can't automatically
> > add "Arrondissement" to make the search result of #3 more clear.
> >
> >
> > Off coarse, setting the name to "Arrondissement Antwerpen" also makes the
> > life of the mapper a bit easier (it's easier to browse through the
> > different boundary relations), but this is of lesser importance than
> having
> > the right data.
>
> For once, I don't think we should consider the mapper too much here: once
> these boundaries are mapped, that's it, they shouldn't really be touched
> anymore.
>

That's also why I said it was of lesser importance.

>
> Ben
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-be] Names of Arrondissements

2012-08-29 Thread Ben Laenen 
On Wednesday 29 August 2012 13:54:32 Sander Deryckere wrote:
> I would like to discuss the naming of the arrondissements in Belgium.
> 
> (...)
>
>1. When people refer to "Antwerpen", they might mean the province or the
>city, but never the arrondissement.

That's mainly because we never ever talk about arrondissements at all :-)

>If they mean the arrondissement,
> that's always mentioned. And I believe that the name tag should reflect
> what people use to refer to the object.
>2. This is also in the choice of the names of Wikipedia articles: They
>name the articles Antwerpen
> (stad)and
> Antwerpen
>(provincie) ,
>so the appended (stad) or (provincie) is just a clarification. But the
>article of the arrondissement gets the name Arrondissement
> Antwerpenwhich
> means it's part of the name.

I wouldn't take every little thing on wikipedia as absolute fact. I wonder if 
they've thought about it themselves. And should it be "Arrondissement" or what 
we usually mean with these: "Bestuurlijk arrondissement". Also, if you look at 
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antwerpen_%28gerechtelijk_arrondissement%29 or at 
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrondissement_Antwerpen -- if they thought it 
was part of the name they'd have to capitalize the word, which they don't.

If you look at the website of the province of Antwerp: 
http://www.provant.be/bestuur/grondgebied/ it says: "Verdeeld in drie 
bestuurlijke arrondissementen, Antwerpen, Mechelen en Turnhout"
If it were really part of the name, one would have to repeat "arrondissement" 
each time.


>3. We can't expect non-OSM members to learn the mapping of the different
>admin_levels. So if someone searches the Kerkstraat in Brugge, and they
>return with a result of the Kerkstraat in Heist inside Brugge, they
> could wrongly think that they have the right street. While if the result
> would show the Kerkstraat is in Heist, arrondissement Brugge, the user
> might know it's wrong.

I don't consider this too much of an issue. If you search a place in OSM, 
you'll now get the whole list municipality - arrondissement - province - 
region - country.


>4. Some people want to index the streets per city (to have a quicker
>search). Because other countries use different admin_levels for their
> city boundaries, the only current way is searching the city node and the
> boundary that goes with it by the name tag. By using the city name for the
> arrondissements, these tools could get confused. (this last part is mainly
> the fault of Germany, where different admin_levels are used for different
> importance of cities). This also makes that Nominatim can't automatically
> add "Arrondissement" to make the search result of #3 more clear.
> 
> 
> Off coarse, setting the name to "Arrondissement Antwerpen" also makes the
> life of the mapper a bit easier (it's easier to browse through the
> different boundary relations), but this is of lesser importance than having
> the right data.

For once, I don't think we should consider the mapper too much here: once 
these boundaries are mapped, that's it, they shouldn't really be touched 
anymore.

Ben

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[OSM-talk-be] Names of Arrondissements

2012-08-29 Thread Sander Deryckere 
I would like to discuss the naming of the arrondissements in Belgium.

Currently, the ones I added (in West-Flanders) are the only ones with a
name like "Arrondissement Roeselare", a big part of the others don't exist
yet, but they have a name like "Antwerpen". I'm all in favour of uniform
names, but I want to clarify my choice for including "Arrondissement" in
the name.


   1. When people refer to "Antwerpen", they might mean the province or the
   city, but never the arrondissement. If they mean the arrondissement, that's
   always mentioned. And I believe that the name tag should reflect what
   people use to refer to the object.
   2. This is also in the choice of the names of Wikipedia articles: They
   name the articles Antwerpen
(stad)and
Antwerpen
   (provincie) ,
   so the appended (stad) or (provincie) is just a clarification. But the
   article of the arrondissement gets the name Arrondissement
Antwerpenwhich
means it's part of the name.
   3. We can't expect non-OSM members to learn the mapping of the different
   admin_levels. So if someone searches the Kerkstraat in Brugge, and they
   return with a result of the Kerkstraat in Heist inside Brugge, they could
   wrongly think that they have the right street. While if the result would
   show the Kerkstraat is in Heist, arrondissement Brugge, the user might know
   it's wrong.
   4. Some people want to index the streets per city (to have a quicker
   search). Because other countries use different admin_levels for their city
   boundaries, the only current way is searching the city node and the
   boundary that goes with it by the name tag. By using the city name for the
   arrondissements, these tools could get confused. (this last part is mainly
   the fault of Germany, where different admin_levels are used for different
   importance of cities). This also makes that Nominatim can't automatically
   add "Arrondissement" to make the search result of #3 more clear.


Off coarse, setting the name to "Arrondissement Antwerpen" also makes the
life of the mapper a bit easier (it's easier to browse through the
different boundary relations), but this is of lesser importance than having
the right data.

I have also made a little vote on the wiki:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:WikiProject_Belgium/Boundaries#Arrondissement_names

If you don't like discussions, or your opinion is fixed, you can cast your
vote.
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