RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion

2012-05-19 Thread George Veni 
Freddie wrote:

“It is nice to know that NCKRI is in favor of recreational caving. Some cavers 
have actually told me that they thought NCKRI would become part of the federal 
govt. conglomerate and therefore limit or ban caving in some areas except for 
research purposes. I am sure that we will all be glad that your organization 
supports recreational caving. Thank you for clarifying this.”

 

I’m about to start a couple of weeks of travel and endless meetings, and I may 
be slow or unable to respond to messages for a while. But before I disappear 
I’m sending this message to clarify things about me and NCKRI.

 

My message below was on my views and was not an official position by NCKRI. 
NCKRI hasn’t taken a position on the question of recreational caving. However, 
while I’m the Executive Director you can expect that my views will generally 
reflect the unofficial position of the Institute until either the positions are 
made formal, my Board of Directors says otherwise, or possibly when a new 
Executive Director takes my place (which I hope will be a long time off).

 

As for NCKRI itself, it has a convoluted origin. It was initially an institute 
within the National Park Service, with matching funds from the State of New 
Mexico and a partnership with the City of Carlsbad to build its headquarters. 
For greater flexibility, in 2006 NCKRI was changed to a non-profit that is 
administered by the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology (aka New 
Mexico Tech). But we are a hybrid non-profit. We still answer to Congress and 
have federal funding so we are somewhat federal. We still get state funding and 
are state employees through New Mexico Tech, so we are somewhat state. Using 
its own money, plus state and federal money, the City of Carlsbad built our 
headquarters for us and that is our home. But we are still an independent 
non-profit. When I first got here in 2007 I was concerned about the proverbial 
“too many cooks that might spoil the soup.” Instead, it has been a beautiful 
partnership where NCKRI gains strength and opportunities through its partners 
in ways that regular non-profits couldn’t dream of, while being able to do 
things its partners can’t dream of because NCKRI is in fact a non-profit.

 

When it comes to federal regulation of caves and karst, NCKRI has no authority. 
When we are invited to serve on committees and teams from the local to 
international level, governmental and private, unless one of those teams is 
given actually authority on an issue (which is rare), our role is just as an 
advisor. While I support recreational caving, I also support responsible 
caving. I know my Board, founding partners, and staff support me on this. There 
are times when certain activities in caves are not appropriate in certain 
situations. In those cases I’ll err on the side of protecting the cave. If the 
cave isn’t our priority, it won’t be available or available in a way where we 
can continue to enjoy it for recreation, science, or other purposes as we had 
before. I won’t discuss hypothetical situations or examples where NCKRI isn’t 
involved and doesn’t have all of the information firsthand. For NCKRI to do 
what it was created to do and in the most effective manner, NCKRI and its staff 
don’t need to get involved in personal or political conflicts and intrigues. If 
we are confronted with a situation where we must take a position, we will do it 
case-by-case, with as much firsthand information as possible, and after careful 
consideration of the many possible consequences.

 

If anyone wants to know more about NCKRI, visit our website, www.nckri.org. For 
a more comprehensive overview and history, look in the “About NCKRI” tab and 
under the “Publications” menu you’ll find all of our annual reports available 
for viewing and download. If you want to discuss something directly with me, 
contact me off-list. I’ll be glad to visit with anyone, but it will have to be 
after June 7th.

 

George

 

***

 

George Veni, Ph.D.

Executive Director

National Cave and Karst Research Institute

400-1 Cascades Avenue

Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215  USA

Office: 575-887-5517

Mobile: 210-863-5919

Fax: 575-887-5523

gv...@nckri.org

www.nckri.org

 

From: freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2012 17:04
To: gv...@nckri.org
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A 
Discussion

 


It is nice to know that NCKRI is in favor of recreational caving. Some cavers 
have actually told me that they thought NCKRI would become part of the federal 
govt. conglomerate and therefore limit or ban caving in some areas except for 
research purposes. I am sure that we will all be glad that your organization 
supports recreational caving. Thank you for clarifying this. 

--- On Fri, 5/18/12, George Veni  wrote:


From: George Veni 
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future

RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion

2012-05-19 Thread George Veni 
Freddie wrote:

“It is nice to know that NCKRI is in favor of recreational caving. Some cavers 
have actually told me that they thought NCKRI would become part of the federal 
govt. conglomerate and therefore limit or ban caving in some areas except for 
research purposes. I am sure that we will all be glad that your organization 
supports recreational caving. Thank you for clarifying this.”

 

I’m about to start a couple of weeks of travel and endless meetings, and I may 
be slow or unable to respond to messages for a while. But before I disappear 
I’m sending this message to clarify things about me and NCKRI.

 

My message below was on my views and was not an official position by NCKRI. 
NCKRI hasn’t taken a position on the question of recreational caving. However, 
while I’m the Executive Director you can expect that my views will generally 
reflect the unofficial position of the Institute until either the positions are 
made formal, my Board of Directors says otherwise, or possibly when a new 
Executive Director takes my place (which I hope will be a long time off).

 

As for NCKRI itself, it has a convoluted origin. It was initially an institute 
within the National Park Service, with matching funds from the State of New 
Mexico and a partnership with the City of Carlsbad to build its headquarters. 
For greater flexibility, in 2006 NCKRI was changed to a non-profit that is 
administered by the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology (aka New 
Mexico Tech). But we are a hybrid non-profit. We still answer to Congress and 
have federal funding so we are somewhat federal. We still get state funding and 
are state employees through New Mexico Tech, so we are somewhat state. Using 
its own money, plus state and federal money, the City of Carlsbad built our 
headquarters for us and that is our home. But we are still an independent 
non-profit. When I first got here in 2007 I was concerned about the proverbial 
“too many cooks that might spoil the soup.” Instead, it has been a beautiful 
partnership where NCKRI gains strength and opportunities through its partners 
in ways that regular non-profits couldn’t dream of, while being able to do 
things its partners can’t dream of because NCKRI is in fact a non-profit.

 

When it comes to federal regulation of caves and karst, NCKRI has no authority. 
When we are invited to serve on committees and teams from the local to 
international level, governmental and private, unless one of those teams is 
given actually authority on an issue (which is rare), our role is just as an 
advisor. While I support recreational caving, I also support responsible 
caving. I know my Board, founding partners, and staff support me on this. There 
are times when certain activities in caves are not appropriate in certain 
situations. In those cases I’ll err on the side of protecting the cave. If the 
cave isn’t our priority, it won’t be available or available in a way where we 
can continue to enjoy it for recreation, science, or other purposes as we had 
before. I won’t discuss hypothetical situations or examples where NCKRI isn’t 
involved and doesn’t have all of the information firsthand. For NCKRI to do 
what it was created to do and in the most effective manner, NCKRI and its staff 
don’t need to get involved in personal or political conflicts and intrigues. If 
we are confronted with a situation where we must take a position, we will do it 
case-by-case, with as much firsthand information as possible, and after careful 
consideration of the many possible consequences.

 

If anyone wants to know more about NCKRI, visit our website, www.nckri.org. For 
a more comprehensive overview and history, look in the “About NCKRI” tab and 
under the “Publications” menu you’ll find all of our annual reports available 
for viewing and download. If you want to discuss something directly with me, 
contact me off-list. I’ll be glad to visit with anyone, but it will have to be 
after June 7th.

 

George

 

***

 

George Veni, Ph.D.

Executive Director

National Cave and Karst Research Institute

400-1 Cascades Avenue

Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215  USA

Office: 575-887-5517

Mobile: 210-863-5919

Fax: 575-887-5523

gv...@nckri.org

www.nckri.org

 

From: freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2012 17:04
To: gv...@nckri.org
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A 
Discussion

 


It is nice to know that NCKRI is in favor of recreational caving. Some cavers 
have actually told me that they thought NCKRI would become part of the federal 
govt. conglomerate and therefore limit or ban caving in some areas except for 
research purposes. I am sure that we will all be glad that your organization 
supports recreational caving. Thank you for clarifying this. 

--- On Fri, 5/18/12, George Veni  wrote:


From: George Veni 
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future

RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion

2012-05-19 Thread George Veni 
Freddie wrote:

“It is nice to know that NCKRI is in favor of recreational caving. Some cavers 
have actually told me that they thought NCKRI would become part of the federal 
govt. conglomerate and therefore limit or ban caving in some areas except for 
research purposes. I am sure that we will all be glad that your organization 
supports recreational caving. Thank you for clarifying this.”

 

I’m about to start a couple of weeks of travel and endless meetings, and I may 
be slow or unable to respond to messages for a while. But before I disappear 
I’m sending this message to clarify things about me and NCKRI.

 

My message below was on my views and was not an official position by NCKRI. 
NCKRI hasn’t taken a position on the question of recreational caving. However, 
while I’m the Executive Director you can expect that my views will generally 
reflect the unofficial position of the Institute until either the positions are 
made formal, my Board of Directors says otherwise, or possibly when a new 
Executive Director takes my place (which I hope will be a long time off).

 

As for NCKRI itself, it has a convoluted origin. It was initially an institute 
within the National Park Service, with matching funds from the State of New 
Mexico and a partnership with the City of Carlsbad to build its headquarters. 
For greater flexibility, in 2006 NCKRI was changed to a non-profit that is 
administered by the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology (aka New 
Mexico Tech). But we are a hybrid non-profit. We still answer to Congress and 
have federal funding so we are somewhat federal. We still get state funding and 
are state employees through New Mexico Tech, so we are somewhat state. Using 
its own money, plus state and federal money, the City of Carlsbad built our 
headquarters for us and that is our home. But we are still an independent 
non-profit. When I first got here in 2007 I was concerned about the proverbial 
“too many cooks that might spoil the soup.” Instead, it has been a beautiful 
partnership where NCKRI gains strength and opportunities through its partners 
in ways that regular non-profits couldn’t dream of, while being able to do 
things its partners can’t dream of because NCKRI is in fact a non-profit.

 

When it comes to federal regulation of caves and karst, NCKRI has no authority. 
When we are invited to serve on committees and teams from the local to 
international level, governmental and private, unless one of those teams is 
given actually authority on an issue (which is rare), our role is just as an 
advisor. While I support recreational caving, I also support responsible 
caving. I know my Board, founding partners, and staff support me on this. There 
are times when certain activities in caves are not appropriate in certain 
situations. In those cases I’ll err on the side of protecting the cave. If the 
cave isn’t our priority, it won’t be available or available in a way where we 
can continue to enjoy it for recreation, science, or other purposes as we had 
before. I won’t discuss hypothetical situations or examples where NCKRI isn’t 
involved and doesn’t have all of the information firsthand. For NCKRI to do 
what it was created to do and in the most effective manner, NCKRI and its staff 
don’t need to get involved in personal or political conflicts and intrigues. If 
we are confronted with a situation where we must take a position, we will do it 
case-by-case, with as much firsthand information as possible, and after careful 
consideration of the many possible consequences.

 

If anyone wants to know more about NCKRI, visit our website, www.nckri.org. For 
a more comprehensive overview and history, look in the “About NCKRI” tab and 
under the “Publications” menu you’ll find all of our annual reports available 
for viewing and download. If you want to discuss something directly with me, 
contact me off-list. I’ll be glad to visit with anyone, but it will have to be 
after June 7th.

 

George

 

***

 

George Veni, Ph.D.

Executive Director

National Cave and Karst Research Institute

400-1 Cascades Avenue

Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215  USA

Office: 575-887-5517

Mobile: 210-863-5919

Fax: 575-887-5523

gv...@nckri.org

www.nckri.org

 

From: freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2012 17:04
To: gv...@nckri.org
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A 
Discussion

 


It is nice to know that NCKRI is in favor of recreational caving. Some cavers 
have actually told me that they thought NCKRI would become part of the federal 
govt. conglomerate and therefore limit or ban caving in some areas except for 
research purposes. I am sure that we will all be glad that your organization 
supports recreational caving. Thank you for clarifying this. 

--- On Fri, 5/18/12, George Veni  wrote:


From: George Veni 
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future

texascavers Digest 19 May 2012 23:05:05 -0000 Issue 1552

2012-05-19 Thread texascavers-digest-help 

texascavers Digest 19 May 2012 23:05:05 - Issue 1552

Topics (messages 20004 through 20016):

Re: Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
20004 by: Mark Minton
20005 by: Butch Fralia
20006 by: Mark.Alman.L-3com.com
20007 by: Mark.Alman.L-3com.com
20016 by: freddie poer

Caver, articles, and interest
20008 by: Linda Palit
20010 by: Mark.Alman.L-3com.com
20011 by: Mark Minton

Join us for the next NSS Webinar - June 6th!
20009 by: NSS Announcements

Rock Climbers in China Caves
20012 by: Mark Minton
20015 by: dirtdoc.comcast.net

rock climbing in China cave
20013 by: Mixon Bill
20014 by: Mark Minton

Administrivia:

To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:


To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:


To post to the list, e-mail:



--
--- Begin Message ---
I agree with Mallory.  In the past, grotto newsletters were 
usually very local in scope and not of general interest to cavers 
elsewhere.  There might also be reports on things like vertical 
practice or a survey class.  When there were enough (were there ever 
really enough?) articles on original exploration or project and 
expedition reports in Texas Caver, even sport trip reports could be 
safely relegated to grotto newsletters.  However in the present 
situation with few articles available, it might make sense to submit 
all trip reports to both the local newsletter and Texas Caver.


Mark

At 03:55 PM 5/17/2012, Mallory Mayeux wrote:
Who says the two have to be mutually exclusive? I enjoy 
"Speleospace" (the Houston Grotto newsletter) and "The Texas Caver."


Our grotto newsletters feature meeting minutes, etc that would be an 
absolute bore to anyone not affiliated with the Houston Grotto. We 
have the same problems as Mark, tho...no one wants to contribute 
articles! So it's not like people are too busy writing articles for 
their grotto newsletter to contribute articles to TSA


On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 2:48 PM, Stefan Creaser 
 wrote:


I'm thinking that it's very selfish of individual Grottos to produce 
their own newsletters and not support the Texas Caver.


Surely Grotto meetings are there to talk about your own stuff, and 
the Texas Caver to share it with everyone else? What purpose does a 
Grotto newsletter serve?


My 2p.

-Stefan


Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry The Maverick Grotto flopped, there were a lot of articles that started
there and ended up in The Caver.  Same thing with the DFW Oztotl years ago.
I can't do the things I did back then so don't get out to write articles.
Surely there's someone out there with an ego that likes to see their name in
print.  

Butch


-Original Message-
From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@caver.net] 
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 4:08 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A
Discussion

 I agree with Mallory.  In the past, grotto newsletters were 
usually very local in scope and not of general interest to cavers 
elsewhere.  There might also be reports on things like vertical 
practice or a survey class.  When there were enough (were there ever 
really enough?) articles on original exploration or project and 
expedition reports in Texas Caver, even sport trip reports could be 
safely relegated to grotto newsletters.  However in the present 
situation with few articles available, it might make sense to submit 
all trip reports to both the local newsletter and Texas Caver.

Mark

At 03:55 PM 5/17/2012, Mallory Mayeux wrote:
>Who says the two have to be mutually exclusive? I enjoy 
>"Speleospace" (the Houston Grotto newsletter) and "The Texas Caver."
>
>Our grotto newsletters feature meeting minutes, etc that would be an 
>absolute bore to anyone not affiliated with the Houston Grotto. We 
>have the same problems as Mark, tho...no one wants to contribute 
>articles! So it's not like people are too busy writing articles for 
>their grotto newsletter to contribute articles to TSA
>
>On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 2:48 PM, Stefan Creaser 
> wrote:
>
>I'm thinking that it's very selfish of individual Grottos to produce 
>their own newsletters and not support the Texas Caver.
>
>Surely Grotto meetings are there to talk about your own stuff, and 
>the Texas Caver to share it with everyone else? What purpose does a 
>Grotto newsletter serve?
>
>My 2p.
>
>-Stefan

Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org 


-
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com

--- End Message

texascavers Digest 19 May 2012 23:05:05 -0000 Issue 1552

2012-05-19 Thread texascavers-digest-help 

texascavers Digest 19 May 2012 23:05:05 - Issue 1552

Topics (messages 20004 through 20016):

Re: Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
20004 by: Mark Minton
20005 by: Butch Fralia
20006 by: Mark.Alman.L-3com.com
20007 by: Mark.Alman.L-3com.com
20016 by: freddie poer

Caver, articles, and interest
20008 by: Linda Palit
20010 by: Mark.Alman.L-3com.com
20011 by: Mark Minton

Join us for the next NSS Webinar - June 6th!
20009 by: NSS Announcements

Rock Climbers in China Caves
20012 by: Mark Minton
20015 by: dirtdoc.comcast.net

rock climbing in China cave
20013 by: Mixon Bill
20014 by: Mark Minton

Administrivia:

To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:


To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:


To post to the list, e-mail:



--
--- Begin Message ---
I agree with Mallory.  In the past, grotto newsletters were 
usually very local in scope and not of general interest to cavers 
elsewhere.  There might also be reports on things like vertical 
practice or a survey class.  When there were enough (were there ever 
really enough?) articles on original exploration or project and 
expedition reports in Texas Caver, even sport trip reports could be 
safely relegated to grotto newsletters.  However in the present 
situation with few articles available, it might make sense to submit 
all trip reports to both the local newsletter and Texas Caver.


Mark

At 03:55 PM 5/17/2012, Mallory Mayeux wrote:
Who says the two have to be mutually exclusive? I enjoy 
"Speleospace" (the Houston Grotto newsletter) and "The Texas Caver."


Our grotto newsletters feature meeting minutes, etc that would be an 
absolute bore to anyone not affiliated with the Houston Grotto. We 
have the same problems as Mark, tho...no one wants to contribute 
articles! So it's not like people are too busy writing articles for 
their grotto newsletter to contribute articles to TSA


On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 2:48 PM, Stefan Creaser 
 wrote:


I'm thinking that it's very selfish of individual Grottos to produce 
their own newsletters and not support the Texas Caver.


Surely Grotto meetings are there to talk about your own stuff, and 
the Texas Caver to share it with everyone else? What purpose does a 
Grotto newsletter serve?


My 2p.

-Stefan


Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry The Maverick Grotto flopped, there were a lot of articles that started
there and ended up in The Caver.  Same thing with the DFW Oztotl years ago.
I can't do the things I did back then so don't get out to write articles.
Surely there's someone out there with an ego that likes to see their name in
print.  

Butch


-Original Message-
From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@caver.net] 
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 4:08 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A
Discussion

 I agree with Mallory.  In the past, grotto newsletters were 
usually very local in scope and not of general interest to cavers 
elsewhere.  There might also be reports on things like vertical 
practice or a survey class.  When there were enough (were there ever 
really enough?) articles on original exploration or project and 
expedition reports in Texas Caver, even sport trip reports could be 
safely relegated to grotto newsletters.  However in the present 
situation with few articles available, it might make sense to submit 
all trip reports to both the local newsletter and Texas Caver.

Mark

At 03:55 PM 5/17/2012, Mallory Mayeux wrote:
>Who says the two have to be mutually exclusive? I enjoy 
>"Speleospace" (the Houston Grotto newsletter) and "The Texas Caver."
>
>Our grotto newsletters feature meeting minutes, etc that would be an 
>absolute bore to anyone not affiliated with the Houston Grotto. We 
>have the same problems as Mark, tho...no one wants to contribute 
>articles! So it's not like people are too busy writing articles for 
>their grotto newsletter to contribute articles to TSA
>
>On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 2:48 PM, Stefan Creaser 
> wrote:
>
>I'm thinking that it's very selfish of individual Grottos to produce 
>their own newsletters and not support the Texas Caver.
>
>Surely Grotto meetings are there to talk about your own stuff, and 
>the Texas Caver to share it with everyone else? What purpose does a 
>Grotto newsletter serve?
>
>My 2p.
>
>-Stefan

Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org 


-
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com

--- End Message

texascavers Digest 19 May 2012 23:05:05 -0000 Issue 1552

2012-05-19 Thread texascavers-digest-help 

texascavers Digest 19 May 2012 23:05:05 - Issue 1552

Topics (messages 20004 through 20016):

Re: Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion
20004 by: Mark Minton
20005 by: Butch Fralia
20006 by: Mark.Alman.L-3com.com
20007 by: Mark.Alman.L-3com.com
20016 by: freddie poer

Caver, articles, and interest
20008 by: Linda Palit
20010 by: Mark.Alman.L-3com.com
20011 by: Mark Minton

Join us for the next NSS Webinar - June 6th!
20009 by: NSS Announcements

Rock Climbers in China Caves
20012 by: Mark Minton
20015 by: dirtdoc.comcast.net

rock climbing in China cave
20013 by: Mixon Bill
20014 by: Mark Minton

Administrivia:

To subscribe to the digest, e-mail:


To unsubscribe from the digest, e-mail:


To post to the list, e-mail:



--
--- Begin Message ---
I agree with Mallory.  In the past, grotto newsletters were 
usually very local in scope and not of general interest to cavers 
elsewhere.  There might also be reports on things like vertical 
practice or a survey class.  When there were enough (were there ever 
really enough?) articles on original exploration or project and 
expedition reports in Texas Caver, even sport trip reports could be 
safely relegated to grotto newsletters.  However in the present 
situation with few articles available, it might make sense to submit 
all trip reports to both the local newsletter and Texas Caver.


Mark

At 03:55 PM 5/17/2012, Mallory Mayeux wrote:
Who says the two have to be mutually exclusive? I enjoy 
"Speleospace" (the Houston Grotto newsletter) and "The Texas Caver."


Our grotto newsletters feature meeting minutes, etc that would be an 
absolute bore to anyone not affiliated with the Houston Grotto. We 
have the same problems as Mark, tho...no one wants to contribute 
articles! So it's not like people are too busy writing articles for 
their grotto newsletter to contribute articles to TSA


On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 2:48 PM, Stefan Creaser 
 wrote:


I'm thinking that it's very selfish of individual Grottos to produce 
their own newsletters and not support the Texas Caver.


Surely Grotto meetings are there to talk about your own stuff, and 
the Texas Caver to share it with everyone else? What purpose does a 
Grotto newsletter serve?


My 2p.

-Stefan


Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry The Maverick Grotto flopped, there were a lot of articles that started
there and ended up in The Caver.  Same thing with the DFW Oztotl years ago.
I can't do the things I did back then so don't get out to write articles.
Surely there's someone out there with an ego that likes to see their name in
print.  

Butch


-Original Message-
From: Mark Minton [mailto:mmin...@caver.net] 
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 4:08 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A
Discussion

 I agree with Mallory.  In the past, grotto newsletters were 
usually very local in scope and not of general interest to cavers 
elsewhere.  There might also be reports on things like vertical 
practice or a survey class.  When there were enough (were there ever 
really enough?) articles on original exploration or project and 
expedition reports in Texas Caver, even sport trip reports could be 
safely relegated to grotto newsletters.  However in the present 
situation with few articles available, it might make sense to submit 
all trip reports to both the local newsletter and Texas Caver.

Mark

At 03:55 PM 5/17/2012, Mallory Mayeux wrote:
>Who says the two have to be mutually exclusive? I enjoy 
>"Speleospace" (the Houston Grotto newsletter) and "The Texas Caver."
>
>Our grotto newsletters feature meeting minutes, etc that would be an 
>absolute bore to anyone not affiliated with the Houston Grotto. We 
>have the same problems as Mark, tho...no one wants to contribute 
>articles! So it's not like people are too busy writing articles for 
>their grotto newsletter to contribute articles to TSA
>
>On Thu, May 17, 2012 at 2:48 PM, Stefan Creaser 
> wrote:
>
>I'm thinking that it's very selfish of individual Grottos to produce 
>their own newsletters and not support the Texas Caver.
>
>Surely Grotto meetings are there to talk about your own stuff, and 
>the Texas Caver to share it with everyone else? What purpose does a 
>Grotto newsletter serve?
>
>My 2p.
>
>-Stefan

Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
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--- End Message

RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion

2012-05-19 Thread freddie poer 
It is nice to know that NCKRI is in favor of recreational caving. Some cavers 
have actually told me that they thought NCKRI would become part of the federal 
govt. conglomerate and therefore limit or ban caving in some areas except for 
research purposes. I am sure that we will all be glad that your organization 
supports recreational caving. Thank you for clarifying this. 

--- On Fri, 5/18/12, George Veni  wrote:


From: George Veni 
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A 
Discussion
To: "'freddie poer'" 
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Friday, May 18, 2012, 1:06 PM







Recreational caving is the backbone of all cave related activities. Cave 
science, cave management, making the public supportive and aware of the 
importance of caves, cannot be done without recreational caving. It provides 
the starting point where most cave scientists, managers, educators, etc., get 
the spark to pursue their careers. It is the basic training ground for those 
cavers who want to focus on mapping, photographing, diving, and doing so many 
other things in and related to caves.
 
Caving organizations from the local to international levels understand this 
relationship and their charters include “cave exploration” (or related terms) 
as important a part of their structure as the other specialties. In my view, 
anyone who feels that one group of cavers is better than another is missing the 
big picture. The recreational caver who doesn’t survey, do restoration 
projects, or collect scientific data is still providing the integral service of 
visiting caves, reporting discoveries and changes, and caving with and thus 
training others who may decide to specialize their cave activities. 
 
Lastly, I prefer the term “recreational” caver to “sport” caver. The latter 
implies competitions and game-type activities that are, if not reckless in a 
cave, then certainly have the potential to harm caves. “Recreational” caver is 
better but not perfect. I love doing science, exploration, survey, photography, 
restoration, training, and visiting caves with no other purpose than to enjoy 
being there. And I find it all “recreational.” 
 
George
 
***
 
George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215  USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
gv...@nckri.org
www.nckri.org
 

From: freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 13:28
To: gv...@nckri.org
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A 
Discussion
 




Does this mean that you are in favor of sport caving?

--- On Thu, 5/17/12, George Veni  wrote:

From: George Veni 
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A 
Discussion
To: "'Texas Cavers'" 
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 10:06 AM



Reading this e-mail exchange and the perceived focus on too many science 
articles in the TC made me think that I didn’t recall any recent science 
articles. So I took a quick at the table of contents for the last nine issues 
through the start of 2010 and found a total of 60 articles listed. I found an 
abundance of reports on surveys, projects, and generally lots of “fun” 
(non-project/non-survey/non-sciency) caving Texas cavers are doing in Texas, 
with a small number of reports on caving in Mexico. I found reports on TCRs, 
TSA conventions, equipment reports, and news I expect most cavers would be 
interested in. I only found one article that could be classified as “science,” 
a nice 1-page report by Jerry Atkinson and Butch Fralia on bad air in Texas 
caves. Considering how many Texas caves have bad air, I’d also expect this 
would be of interest to most cavers who generally aren’t interested in science 
articles.
 
So for at least for the past two years, the TC has had a nice mix of articles 
with no bias toward science. As I also skimmed through these articles, I was 
impressed with the great quality of caving, maps, reporting, and information 
provided by Texas cavers, and Mark’s skills at coaxing the articles and photos 
and providing them to us in a beautiful format.
 
It has always been necessary for TC editors to arm-twist articles from cavers. 
And there are always cycles where minimal twisting is needed and times like now 
where tons of pressure produces little result. I deeply appreciate Mark’s 
efforts and those of past editors. It is not an easy job. In hopes that it 
helps Mark at least a little, here are two thoughts that might get some of you 
to send in material.
 
1)  If you are organizing a trip or project, the cave owner or manager may 
want a trip report. Sometimes they don’t ask for one, but to maintain access to 
the cave many cavers will often send an occasional trip report or summary of 
trips. If you do this, and the owner doesn’t object, send a copy of t

RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion

2012-05-19 Thread freddie poer 
It is nice to know that NCKRI is in favor of recreational caving. Some cavers 
have actually told me that they thought NCKRI would become part of the federal 
govt. conglomerate and therefore limit or ban caving in some areas except for 
research purposes. I am sure that we will all be glad that your organization 
supports recreational caving. Thank you for clarifying this. 

--- On Fri, 5/18/12, George Veni  wrote:


From: George Veni 
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A 
Discussion
To: "'freddie poer'" 
Date: Friday, May 18, 2012, 1:06 PM







Recreational caving is the backbone of all cave related activities. Cave 
science, cave management, making the public supportive and aware of the 
importance of caves, cannot be done without recreational caving. It provides 
the starting point where most cave scientists, managers, educators, etc., get 
the spark to pursue their careers. It is the basic training ground for those 
cavers who want to focus on mapping, photographing, diving, and doing so many 
other things in and related to caves.
 
Caving organizations from the local to international levels understand this 
relationship and their charters include “cave exploration” (or related terms) 
as important a part of their structure as the other specialties. In my view, 
anyone who feels that one group of cavers is better than another is missing the 
big picture. The recreational caver who doesn’t survey, do restoration 
projects, or collect scientific data is still providing the integral service of 
visiting caves, reporting discoveries and changes, and caving with and thus 
training others who may decide to specialize their cave activities. 
 
Lastly, I prefer the term “recreational” caver to “sport” caver. The latter 
implies competitions and game-type activities that are, if not reckless in a 
cave, then certainly have the potential to harm caves. “Recreational” caver is 
better but not perfect. I love doing science, exploration, survey, photography, 
restoration, training, and visiting caves with no other purpose than to enjoy 
being there. And I find it all “recreational.” 
 
George
 
***
 
George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215  USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
gv...@nckri.org
www.nckri.org
 

From: freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 13:28
To: gv...@nckri.org
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A 
Discussion
 




Does this mean that you are in favor of sport caving?

--- On Thu, 5/17/12, George Veni  wrote:

From: George Veni 
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A 
Discussion
To: "'Texas Cavers'" 
Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 10:06 AM



Reading this e-mail exchange and the perceived focus on too many science 
articles in the TC made me think that I didn’t recall any recent science 
articles. So I took a quick at the table of contents for the last nine issues 
through the start of 2010 and found a total of 60 articles listed. I found an 
abundance of reports on surveys, projects, and generally lots of “fun” 
(non-project/non-survey/non-sciency) caving Texas cavers are doing in Texas, 
with a small number of reports on caving in Mexico. I found reports on TCRs, 
TSA conventions, equipment reports, and news I expect most cavers would be 
interested in. I only found one article that could be classified as “science,” 
a nice 1-page report by Jerry Atkinson and Butch Fralia on bad air in Texas 
caves. Considering how many Texas caves have bad air, I’d also expect this 
would be of interest to most cavers who generally aren’t interested in science 
articles.
 
So for at least for the past two years, the TC has had a nice mix of articles 
with no bias toward science. As I also skimmed through these articles, I was 
impressed with the great quality of caving, maps, reporting, and information 
provided by Texas cavers, and Mark’s skills at coaxing the articles and photos 
and providing them to us in a beautiful format.
 
It has always been necessary for TC editors to arm-twist articles from cavers. 
And there are always cycles where minimal twisting is needed and times like now 
where tons of pressure produces little result. I deeply appreciate Mark’s 
efforts and those of past editors. It is not an easy job. In hopes that it 
helps Mark at least a little, here are two thoughts that might get some of you 
to send in material.
 
1)  If you are organizing a trip or project, the cave owner or manager may 
want a trip report. Sometimes they don’t ask for one, but to maintain access to 
the cave many cavers will often send an occasional trip report or summary of 
trips. If you do this, and the owner doesn’t object, send a copy of the TC. 
 
2) If you a new caver and think us old timers aren’t interested

RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A Discussion

2012-05-19 Thread freddie poer 
It is nice to know that NCKRI is in favor of recreational caving. Some cavers 
have actually told me that they thought NCKRI would become part of the federal 
govt. conglomerate and therefore limit or ban caving in some areas except for 
research purposes. I am sure that we will all be glad that your organization 
supports recreational caving. Thank you for clarifying this. 

--- On Fri, 5/18/12, George Veni  wrote:


From: George Veni 
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A 
Discussion
To: "'freddie poer'" 
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Friday, May 18, 2012, 1:06 PM







Recreational caving is the backbone of all cave related activities. Cave 
science, cave management, making the public supportive and aware of the 
importance of caves, cannot be done without recreational caving. It provides 
the starting point where most cave scientists, managers, educators, etc., get 
the spark to pursue their careers. It is the basic training ground for those 
cavers who want to focus on mapping, photographing, diving, and doing so many 
other things in and related to caves.
 
Caving organizations from the local to international levels understand this 
relationship and their charters include “cave exploration” (or related terms) 
as important a part of their structure as the other specialties. In my view, 
anyone who feels that one group of cavers is better than another is missing the 
big picture. The recreational caver who doesn’t survey, do restoration 
projects, or collect scientific data is still providing the integral service of 
visiting caves, reporting discoveries and changes, and caving with and thus 
training others who may decide to specialize their cave activities. 
 
Lastly, I prefer the term “recreational” caver to “sport” caver. The latter 
implies competitions and game-type activities that are, if not reckless in a 
cave, then certainly have the potential to harm caves. “Recreational” caver is 
better but not perfect. I love doing science, exploration, survey, photography, 
restoration, training, and visiting caves with no other purpose than to enjoy 
being there. And I find it all “recreational.” 
 
George
 
***
 
George Veni, Ph.D.
Executive Director
National Cave and Karst Research Institute
400-1 Cascades Avenue
Carlsbad, New Mexico 88220-6215  USA
Office: 575-887-5517
Mobile: 210-863-5919
Fax: 575-887-5523
gv...@nckri.org
www.nckri.org
 

From: freddie poer [mailto:freddiepoe...@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 13:28
To: gv...@nckri.org
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A 
Discussion
 




Does this mean that you are in favor of sport caving?

--- On Thu, 5/17/12, George Veni  wrote:

From: George Veni 
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Past, Present, and Future of THE TEXAS CAVER - A 
Discussion
To: "'Texas Cavers'" 
List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com
Date: Thursday, May 17, 2012, 10:06 AM



Reading this e-mail exchange and the perceived focus on too many science 
articles in the TC made me think that I didn’t recall any recent science 
articles. So I took a quick at the table of contents for the last nine issues 
through the start of 2010 and found a total of 60 articles listed. I found an 
abundance of reports on surveys, projects, and generally lots of “fun” 
(non-project/non-survey/non-sciency) caving Texas cavers are doing in Texas, 
with a small number of reports on caving in Mexico. I found reports on TCRs, 
TSA conventions, equipment reports, and news I expect most cavers would be 
interested in. I only found one article that could be classified as “science,” 
a nice 1-page report by Jerry Atkinson and Butch Fralia on bad air in Texas 
caves. Considering how many Texas caves have bad air, I’d also expect this 
would be of interest to most cavers who generally aren’t interested in science 
articles.
 
So for at least for the past two years, the TC has had a nice mix of articles 
with no bias toward science. As I also skimmed through these articles, I was 
impressed with the great quality of caving, maps, reporting, and information 
provided by Texas cavers, and Mark’s skills at coaxing the articles and photos 
and providing them to us in a beautiful format.
 
It has always been necessary for TC editors to arm-twist articles from cavers. 
And there are always cycles where minimal twisting is needed and times like now 
where tons of pressure produces little result. I deeply appreciate Mark’s 
efforts and those of past editors. It is not an easy job. In hopes that it 
helps Mark at least a little, here are two thoughts that might get some of you 
to send in material.
 
1)  If you are organizing a trip or project, the cave owner or manager may 
want a trip report. Sometimes they don’t ask for one, but to maintain access to 
the cave many cavers will often send an occasional trip report or summary of 
trips. If you do this, and the owner doesn’t object, send a copy of t

Re: [Texascavers] Rock Climbers in China Caves

2012-05-19 Thread dirtdoc 


Before you all get frosted up, my view of it is that this is a big non-issue.   
And if someone should disagree, there is also nothing you can do about it. 



  

  All over SE Asia (China, Vietnam, Laos, and elsewhere) much of the best rock 
(and most accessible) climbing is on limestone.   It's outside and the cliffs 
usually have solution overhangs and cave entrances adorned with secondary 
calcite.   A lot of climbing companies exist, many with European as well as 
local guides and instructors.   Rock climbers from all over the world are 
showing up.   I met a young couple from Moose, Wyoming, climbing in the karst 
of Laos in December.   They happened to know some of my ageing climbing friends 
from the 50s in the Tetons. 



  

You can also free-climb limestone pinnacles in Ha Lo ng Bay   in Vietnam and 
fall into the ocean when you peel off.   It's great sport. 



  

The only folks I know of climbing down inside the caves are the intrepid few 
doing state-of-the-art exploration in some of the most spectacular caves on 
Earth. 



  

Let's kill this thread now. 



  

DirtDoc

Re: [Texascavers] Rock Climbers in China Caves

2012-05-19 Thread dirtdoc 


Before you all get frosted up, my view of it is that this is a big non-issue.   
And if someone should disagree, there is also nothing you can do about it. 



  

  All over SE Asia (China, Vietnam, Laos, and elsewhere) much of the best rock 
(and most accessible) climbing is on limestone.   It's outside and the cliffs 
usually have solution overhangs and cave entrances adorned with secondary 
calcite.   A lot of climbing companies exist, many with European as well as 
local guides and instructors.   Rock climbers from all over the world are 
showing up.   I met a young couple from Moose, Wyoming, climbing in the karst 
of Laos in December.   They happened to know some of my ageing climbing friends 
from the 50s in the Tetons. 



  

You can also free-climb limestone pinnacles in Ha Lo ng Bay   in Vietnam and 
fall into the ocean when you peel off.   It's great sport. 



  

The only folks I know of climbing down inside the caves are the intrepid few 
doing state-of-the-art exploration in some of the most spectacular caves on 
Earth. 



  

Let's kill this thread now. 



  

DirtDoc

Re: [Texascavers] Rock Climbers in China Caves

2012-05-19 Thread dirtdoc 


Before you all get frosted up, my view of it is that this is a big non-issue.   
And if someone should disagree, there is also nothing you can do about it. 



  

  All over SE Asia (China, Vietnam, Laos, and elsewhere) much of the best rock 
(and most accessible) climbing is on limestone.   It's outside and the cliffs 
usually have solution overhangs and cave entrances adorned with secondary 
calcite.   A lot of climbing companies exist, many with European as well as 
local guides and instructors.   Rock climbers from all over the world are 
showing up.   I met a young couple from Moose, Wyoming, climbing in the karst 
of Laos in December.   They happened to know some of my ageing climbing friends 
from the 50s in the Tetons. 



  

You can also free-climb limestone pinnacles in Ha Lo ng Bay   in Vietnam and 
fall into the ocean when you peel off.   It's great sport. 



  

The only folks I know of climbing down inside the caves are the intrepid few 
doing state-of-the-art exploration in some of the most spectacular caves on 
Earth. 



  

Let's kill this thread now. 



  

DirtDoc

Re: [Texascavers] rock climbing in China cave

2012-05-19 Thread Mark Minton 
The photo that looks like the climber is on formations is on 
page 46.  At least to me, it looks like the type of very old, 
weathered formations one often sees around large cave entrances.  My 
guess is that they didn't want people to be able to easily make 
copies of the magazine, which one could do easily from a PDF.  I 
couldn't find any way to save the article electronically other than 
to print each couple of pages to PDF.


Mark

At 12:58 PM 5/19/2012, Mixon Bill wrote:

Looks to me like the climbers are climbing seriously karsted bedrock
in the cave entrance, not on formations. Still, there are cavers who
will fuss. Why on earth is that magazine using Flash to put nearly
illegible issues on the web? There are easier and better ways. What's
wrong with PDFs? -- Mixon


Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org 



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Re: [Texascavers] rock climbing in China cave

2012-05-19 Thread Mark Minton 
The photo that looks like the climber is on formations is on 
page 46.  At least to me, it looks like the type of very old, 
weathered formations one often sees around large cave entrances.  My 
guess is that they didn't want people to be able to easily make 
copies of the magazine, which one could do easily from a PDF.  I 
couldn't find any way to save the article electronically other than 
to print each couple of pages to PDF.


Mark

At 12:58 PM 5/19/2012, Mixon Bill wrote:

Looks to me like the climbers are climbing seriously karsted bedrock
in the cave entrance, not on formations. Still, there are cavers who
will fuss. Why on earth is that magazine using Flash to put nearly
illegible issues on the web? There are easier and better ways. What's
wrong with PDFs? -- Mixon


Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org 



-
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
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Re: [Texascavers] rock climbing in China cave

2012-05-19 Thread Mark Minton 
The photo that looks like the climber is on formations is on 
page 46.  At least to me, it looks like the type of very old, 
weathered formations one often sees around large cave entrances.  My 
guess is that they didn't want people to be able to easily make 
copies of the magazine, which one could do easily from a PDF.  I 
couldn't find any way to save the article electronically other than 
to print each couple of pages to PDF.


Mark

At 12:58 PM 5/19/2012, Mixon Bill wrote:

Looks to me like the climbers are climbing seriously karsted bedrock
in the cave entrance, not on formations. Still, there are cavers who
will fuss. Why on earth is that magazine using Flash to put nearly
illegible issues on the web? There are easier and better ways. What's
wrong with PDFs? -- Mixon


Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org 



-
Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com

[Texascavers] rock climbing in China cave

2012-05-19 Thread Mixon Bill 
Looks to me like the climbers are climbing seriously karsted bedrock  
in the cave entrance, not on formations. Still, there are cavers who  
will fuss. Why on earth is that magazine using Flash to put nearly  
illegible issues on the web? There are easier and better ways. What's  
wrong with PDFs? -- Mixon


God created the world in six days. On the seventh day, while God  
rested, the Devil created religion.


You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
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[Texascavers] rock climbing in China cave

2012-05-19 Thread Mixon Bill 
Looks to me like the climbers are climbing seriously karsted bedrock  
in the cave entrance, not on formations. Still, there are cavers who  
will fuss. Why on earth is that magazine using Flash to put nearly  
illegible issues on the web? There are easier and better ways. What's  
wrong with PDFs? -- Mixon


God created the world in six days. On the seventh day, while God  
rested, the Devil created religion.


You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org


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[Texascavers] rock climbing in China cave

2012-05-19 Thread Mixon Bill 
Looks to me like the climbers are climbing seriously karsted bedrock  
in the cave entrance, not on formations. Still, there are cavers who  
will fuss. Why on earth is that magazine using Flash to put nearly  
illegible issues on the web? There are easier and better ways. What's  
wrong with PDFs? -- Mixon


God created the world in six days. On the seventh day, while God  
rested, the Devil created religion.


You may "reply" to the address this message
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org


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[Texascavers] Rock Climbers in China Caves

2012-05-19 Thread Mark Minton 
The March, 2012 issue of the climbing magazine Rock and Ice 
has an article (p. 44-54) about rock climbers climbing in some of the 
enormous caves in China.  They are depicted climbing on formations in 
one photo.  These caves are so huge that they might not do much 
damage other than leaving their ubiquitous chalk marks all over the 
walls.  The issue may be viewed for free at 



Mark

Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
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[Texascavers] Rock Climbers in China Caves

2012-05-19 Thread Mark Minton 
The March, 2012 issue of the climbing magazine Rock and Ice 
has an article (p. 44-54) about rock climbers climbing in some of the 
enormous caves in China.  They are depicted climbing on formations in 
one photo.  These caves are so huge that they might not do much 
damage other than leaving their ubiquitous chalk marks all over the 
walls.  The issue may be viewed for free at 



Mark

Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org 



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[Texascavers] Rock Climbers in China Caves

2012-05-19 Thread Mark Minton 
The March, 2012 issue of the climbing magazine Rock and Ice 
has an article (p. 44-54) about rock climbers climbing in some of the 
enormous caves in China.  They are depicted climbing on formations in 
one photo.  These caves are so huge that they might not do much 
damage other than leaving their ubiquitous chalk marks all over the 
walls.  The issue may be viewed for free at 



Mark

Please reply to mmin...@caver.net
Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org 



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