Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
Having gone through CP/M - DOS - Windows 1.x up to today's versions I can say i18n or internationalization was never a big term at Microsoft. They either talk about globalization for internationalization or localization itself - localizable coming closest to i18n. I doubt you will find any i18n references, maybe you will find g11n or l10n somewhere. Dave - Original Message - From: "Barry Caplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Rick McGowan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 3:43 PM Subject: Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.? > At 08:35 AM 10/10/2002 -0700, Rick wrote: > >The earliest reference I can find to "i18n" in my old e-mail trail is the > >following e-mail to the "sun!unicode" mail list by Glenn Wright. This was > >Oct 5, 1989. By that time, the term was definitely current, as Mr. Hiura > >suggests. > > I registered i18n.com around 94 or so, and the fellow, whose name I am trying hard to recall (first name JR, Australian or British IIRC, red hair), seemed to indicate the coinage was quite some time before that and he was very surprised when I told him how extensive the usage was by then. > > I'm a jonny-come-lately when it comes to unix and other standards history... is there an searchable archive of windows standards anywhere? How about a cvs server of code? It seems to me that i18n or variants could have made it into code as a function name almost immediately, or possibly even before being put into a standards doc > > It seems to me that l10n was extant by the time I came to CA ~ 1992. > > Perhaps Ken Lunde can shed some light - he surely came across a lot of early docs while writing his first book, which was a republication of an online archive he maintained I think. > > Barry >
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
Hi Tim. Good to hear from you and thanks for this. I agree, I went thru some of the same books . In fact, books written by people close to software internationalization probably rejected documenting "i18n" in their formal publications, which is why I think the first reference I have is "Soft landing in Japan". This book is more about getting into the Japan market and is not written by software people in particular. So documenting this "tidbit" was to help people on the outside be a bit more "in the know". Makes a strange kind of sense. Perhaps this sense of letting outsiders in, helped influence later publications to start documenting it as well. Anyway, I will add Jan's first name to the article and your comments to the annotations. Best regards, Tex "Greenwood, Timothy" wrote: > > I concur with the stories from the other DEC folks and certainly remember Jan >Scherpenhuizen and S12N. > > Some idea of a lower date for common use of I18N are books that talk about >internationalization but do not use the abbreviation. It is not used in the July 1993 >X/Open Internationalisation Guide nor the summer 93 Digital Technical Journal on >Product Internationalization. Nor do I see it in the 1991 'Digital Guide to >Developing International Software'. This was based on an internally distributed DEC >manual - I believe that I have a copy at home. These dates tie in with the findings >from Tex. I suspect that the term was in internal use, but not considered as fit for >publication. The term internationalization itself is not used in my earliest >reference, proceedings from an internal DEC conference on International Opportunities >and Differences' April 1985. > > Tim -- - Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:Tex@;XenCraft.com Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com XenCrafthttp://www.XenCraft.com Making e-Business Work Around the World -
RE: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
I concur with the stories from the other DEC folks and certainly remember Jan Scherpenhuizen and S12N. Some idea of a lower date for common use of I18N are books that talk about internationalization but do not use the abbreviation. It is not used in the July 1993 X/Open Internationalisation Guide nor the summer 93 Digital Technical Journal on Product Internationalization. Nor do I see it in the 1991 'Digital Guide to Developing International Software'. This was based on an internally distributed DEC manual - I believe that I have a copy at home. These dates tie in with the findings from Tex. I suspect that the term was in internal use, but not considered as fit for publication. The term internationalization itself is not used in my earliest reference, proceedings from an internal DEC conference on International Opportunities and Differences' April 1985. Tim
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
On Thu, Oct 10, 2002 at 12:33:58PM -0700, Barry Caplan wrote: > How did you find these? I searched on i18n and sorted by date and could not go past >the 1000th or so record Go to Advanced search, Select "Return messages posted between" and use sensible dates (such as between 1981-1991) -- --- | Radovan Garabík http://melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk/~garabik/ | | __..--^^^--..__garabik @ melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk | --- Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus. Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!
Re: What good is our jargon? was: Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
At 05:40 PM 10-10-02, Barry Caplan wrote: >i18n and l10n both meet all of these criteria, as do "lan" and "yahoo!" >and "google". In this respect, jargon can become a brand. In the case of yahoo! and google, these are brands that have become jargon, not the other way 'round. John Hudson Tiro Typeworks www.tiro.com Vancouver, BC [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those books that allow us to forget the most are accorded the status of a classic. - James Secord
What good is our jargon? was: Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
This is a fair question. Why is jargon useful? It serves to define a group and a concept. the best jargon is memorable, short in name, easy to write, catchy in sound to the ear, and universally able to be written. It helps a lot if the term is not already overridden by another group. i18n and l10n both meet all of these criteria, as do "lan" and "yahoo!" and "google". In this respect, jargon can become a brand. What is really interesting to me is that the criteria we have as common lore about *why* abbreviations were needed (too long to write and type and too much of a tongue twister) apparently never occurred to other professions that also use "internationalization" and "localization" as key terms. I think it is the ability to separate what we mean from what others mean that is an important value of the jargon. Especially since it is not always clear in context which is which, and also especially since "globalization" has extremely negative connotations in the popular collective mind. Barry Caplan www.i18n.com At 05:12 PM 10/10/2002 -0700, Kenneth Whistler wrote: >> W0e n3r u2d t1e g1d-a3l, g3y a1d o5e a10n "i18n", h5r! > >What I don't understand, since these a10n's are in such >widespread use among programmers and character encoders, >is why they don't use h9l, as in i12n, lan, and gbn? > >--K1n > >BTW, these aan's are not only o5e, they are also o4e, but >unfortunately, not o6e in use.
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
> W0e n3r u2d t1e g1d-a3l, g3y a1d o5e a10n "i18n", h5r! What I don't understand, since these a10n's are in such widespread use among programmers and character encoders, is why they don't use h9l, as in i12n, lan, and gbn? --K1n BTW, these aan's are not only o5e, they are also o4e, but unfortunately, not o6e in use.
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
At 07:34 PM 10/10/2002 -0400, Tex Texin wrote: >Mark, >that's good to know. I never worked with Apple and so have no Apple doc >in my collection. > >However, the W0e below is a violation of the encoding and is a security >risk. I think the algorithm calls for the shortest string, so people >can't sneak in extra nulls- W0e W00e, etc. That last one would be W0(2)e. The first is optionally W0(1)e. The (deprecated) part of the pattern was designed by the same folks who add ~20% bandwidth (forget the exact number) to all mime email in order to get it through 7 bit smtp. Barry
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
At 07:34 PM 10/10/2002 -0400, Tex Texin wrote: >Mark Davis wrote: >> >> We used the term "internationalization" in Apple in late 85. We might have >> also used it earlier than that, I don't remember. >> >> W0e n3r u2d t1e g1d-a3l, g3y a1d o5e a10n "i18n", h5r! Mark, Given the center of work in the i18n and l10n area that has emerged in Ireland (and other places) are you more partial to "internationali1ation" and "locali1ation"? :) Barry www.i18n.com
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
Mark, that's good to know. I never worked with Apple and so have no Apple doc in my collection. However, the W0e below is a violation of the encoding and is a security risk. I think the algorithm calls for the shortest string, so people can't sneak in extra nulls- W0e W00e, etc. ;-) tex Mark Davis wrote: > > We used the term "internationalization" in Apple in late 85. We might have > also used it earlier than that, I don't remember. > > W0e n3r u2d t1e g1d-a3l, g3y a1d o5e a10n "i18n", h5r! > > Mark > __ > http://www.macchiato.com > ⺠âEppur si muoveâ â > > - Original Message - > From: "Tex Texin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Barry Caplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: "Rick McGowan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 13:14 > Subject: Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.? > > > >From the books I looked at this morning, the term "localization" was > > very much in use in the late 80s by most vendors. > > It seems "internationalization" came later, and was more vendor specific > > until 92/93. > > Then came i18n. > > then came l10n, g11n, e13n (europeanization), j10n (japanization)... > > > > > > > > Barry Caplan wrote: > > > > > > At 08:35 AM 10/10/2002 -0700, Rick wrote: > > > >The earliest reference I can find to "i18n" in my old e-mail trail is > the > > > >following e-mail to the "sun!unicode" mail list by Glenn Wright. This > was > > > >Oct 5, 1989. By that time, the term was definitely current, as Mr. > Hiura > > > >suggests. > > > > > > I registered i18n.com around 94 or so, and the fellow, whose name I am > trying hard to recall (first name JR, Australian or British IIRC, red hair), > seemed to indicate the coinage was quite some time before that and he was > very surprised when I told him how extensive the usage was by then. > > > > > > I'm a jonny-come-lately when it comes to unix and other standards > history... is there an searchable archive of windows standards anywhere? How > about a cvs server of code? It seems to me that i18n or variants could have > made it into code as a function name almost immediately, or possibly even > before being put into a standards doc > > > > > > It seems to me that l10n was extant by the time I came to CA ~ 1992. > > > > > > Perhaps Ken Lunde can shed some light - he surely came across a lot of > early docs while writing his first book, which was a republication of an > online archive he maintained I think. > > > > > > Barry > > > > -- > > - > > Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com > > > > XenCraft http://www.XenCraft.com > > Making e-Business Work Around the World > > - > > > > > > > > -- - Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com XenCrafthttp://www.XenCraft.com Making e-Business Work Around the World -
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
We used the term "internationalization" in Apple in late 85. We might have also used it earlier than that, I don't remember. W0e n3r u2d t1e g1d-a3l, g3y a1d o5e a10n "i18n", h5r! Mark __ http://www.macchiato.com ⺠âEppur si muoveâ â - Original Message - From: "Tex Texin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Barry Caplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: "Rick McGowan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 13:14 Subject: Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.? > >From the books I looked at this morning, the term "localization" was > very much in use in the late 80s by most vendors. > It seems "internationalization" came later, and was more vendor specific > until 92/93. > Then came i18n. > then came l10n, g11n, e13n (europeanization), j10n (japanization)... > > > > Barry Caplan wrote: > > > > At 08:35 AM 10/10/2002 -0700, Rick wrote: > > >The earliest reference I can find to "i18n" in my old e-mail trail is the > > >following e-mail to the "sun!unicode" mail list by Glenn Wright. This was > > >Oct 5, 1989. By that time, the term was definitely current, as Mr. Hiura > > >suggests. > > > > I registered i18n.com around 94 or so, and the fellow, whose name I am trying hard to recall (first name JR, Australian or British IIRC, red hair), seemed to indicate the coinage was quite some time before that and he was very surprised when I told him how extensive the usage was by then. > > > > I'm a jonny-come-lately when it comes to unix and other standards history... is there an searchable archive of windows standards anywhere? How about a cvs server of code? It seems to me that i18n or variants could have made it into code as a function name almost immediately, or possibly even before being put into a standards doc > > > > It seems to me that l10n was extant by the time I came to CA ~ 1992. > > > > Perhaps Ken Lunde can shed some light - he surely came across a lot of early docs while writing his first book, which was a republication of an online archive he maintained I think. > > > > Barry > > -- > - > Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com > > XenCraft http://www.XenCraft.com > Making e-Business Work Around the World > - > > > >
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
>From the books I looked at this morning, the term "localization" was very much in use in the late 80s by most vendors. It seems "internationalization" came later, and was more vendor specific until 92/93. Then came i18n. then came l10n, g11n, e13n (europeanization), j10n (japanization)... Barry Caplan wrote: > > At 08:35 AM 10/10/2002 -0700, Rick wrote: > >The earliest reference I can find to "i18n" in my old e-mail trail is the > >following e-mail to the "sun!unicode" mail list by Glenn Wright. This was > >Oct 5, 1989. By that time, the term was definitely current, as Mr. Hiura > >suggests. > > I registered i18n.com around 94 or so, and the fellow, whose name I am trying hard >to recall (first name JR, Australian or British IIRC, red hair), seemed to indicate >the coinage was quite some time before that and he was very surprised when I told him >how extensive the usage was by then. > > I'm a jonny-come-lately when it comes to unix and other standards history... is >there an searchable archive of windows standards anywhere? How about a cvs server of >code? It seems to me that i18n or variants could have made it into code as a function >name almost immediately, or possibly even before being put into a standards doc > > It seems to me that l10n was extant by the time I came to CA ~ 1992. > > Perhaps Ken Lunde can shed some light - he surely came across a lot of early docs >while writing his first book, which was a republication of an online archive he >maintained I think. > > Barry -- - Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com XenCrafthttp://www.XenCraft.com Making e-Business Work Around the World -
RE: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
At 06:35 PM 10/10/2002 +0200, Marco Cimarosti wrote: >Radovan Garabik wrote: >> Google is your friend :-) >> "i18n" is first mentioned in USENET on 30 nov 1989, Here is a mention from 1989-12-02 11:24:11 PST only 3 days later: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=i18n+1988&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=454%40longway.TIC.COM&rnum=7 that says: > 5. Messaging > > The UniForum internationalization (I18N) folks brought forward a > proposal for a messaging facility to be included in P1003.1b. > The working group decided that it needs some more work but will > go into the next draft. > > [Editor's note -- The problem being solved here is that > internationalized applications store all user-visible strings in > external files, so that vendors and users can change the > >December 1989 Standards Update IEEE 1003.1: System services interface > > >- 5 - > > language of an application without recompiling it. The UniForum > I18N group is proposing a standard format for those files.] This indicates to me that UniForum might be a place to look for earlier references This is a very interesting thread from 1990: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&threadm=1990Aug30.115608.3729%40tsa.co.uk&rnum=20&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Di18n%2B1988%26start%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26selm%3D1990Aug30.115608.3729%2540tsa.co.uk%26rnum%3D20
RE: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
How did you find these? I searched on i18n and sorted by date and could not go past the 1000th or so record Barry At 09:52 PM 10/10/2002 +0300, Tor Lillqvist wrote: >Well, the first occurence of "i18n" in Google's USENET archive seems >to be http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=5570339%40hpfcdc.HP.COM >from Nov 30, 1989. > >"l10n" occurs first in >http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1990Aug30.115608.3729%40tsa.co.uk >from Aug 30, 1990. > >--tml
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
At 08:35 AM 10/10/2002 -0700, Rick wrote: >The earliest reference I can find to "i18n" in my old e-mail trail is the >following e-mail to the "sun!unicode" mail list by Glenn Wright. This was >Oct 5, 1989. By that time, the term was definitely current, as Mr. Hiura >suggests. I registered i18n.com around 94 or so, and the fellow, whose name I am trying hard to recall (first name JR, Australian or British IIRC, red hair), seemed to indicate the coinage was quite some time before that and he was very surprised when I told him how extensive the usage was by then. I'm a jonny-come-lately when it comes to unix and other standards history... is there an searchable archive of windows standards anywhere? How about a cvs server of code? It seems to me that i18n or variants could have made it into code as a function name almost immediately, or possibly even before being put into a standards doc It seems to me that l10n was extant by the time I came to CA ~ 1992. Perhaps Ken Lunde can shed some light - he surely came across a lot of early docs while writing his first book, which was a republication of an online archive he maintained I think. Barry
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
> From: Markus Scherer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Barry Caplan wrote:
> > There is a link with the story on the fron page of www.i18n.com
> Nice story, similar to the one with Gary Miller. It seems like we
> have three stories of origin now (with mid-'80s DEC). The i18n.com
> version does not date the MIT meeting, does it?
It must be '89, when the X Window System Internationalization
team at MIT got formed for X11R5 release, as what the article
on i18n.com refers as, "a committee working on the standards for
xwindows". (By the way, "xwindows" is incorrect, no plural please ;-)
it should be written as X Window System :).
The statement I posted earlier,
hiura> The acronym "I18N" appeared before 1991, since I recall I have
hiura> already used I18N in '89 ;-).
was exactly refering to the use of "I18N" in the committee the article
on i18n.com referring. As some of you may remember ;-), I was a part
of this committee, so I know this committee was not the origin of the
term I18N.
We've created two mailing lists at MIT for the X Window System
Internationalization activity, called mltalk(multilingual talk) and
i18n-si (Internationalization sample implementation) back on those
days.
DEC was heavily involved in the development of X Window System
since very early phase, I can imagine there were some idea exchanges
on the naming, so it is possible that the rep. of DEC passed the
hint to this committee.
--
hiura@{freestandards.org,OpenI18N.org,li18nux.org,unicode.org,sun.com}
Chair, Li18nux/Linux Internationalization Initiative, http://www.li18nux.org
Chair, OpenI18N/Open Internationalization Initiative, http://www.OpenI18N.org
Board of Directors, Free Standards Group,http://www.freestandards.org
Architect/Sr. Staff Engineer, Sun Microsystems, Inc, USA eFAX: 509-693-8356
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
Markus Scherer scripsit: > Nice story, similar to the one with Gary Miller. It seems like we have three stories >of origin now (with mid-'80s DEC). > The i18n.com version does not date the MIT meeting, does it? Well, independent or stimulus-diffused reinvention isn't ludicrous; in fact, I can testify that it actually happened. At one point, before I had firmly learned the acronym "i18n", I found myself remembering that there was an acronym of that style and having to count the letters myself, and at least once "l14n" instead of "l10n" got into a posting of mine, perhaps influenced by c14n = "canonicalization", for which the oldest Google Groups entry is only 1999. Did I invent "c14n" independently, or by stimulus diffusion, or by seeing it and forgetting it? I just can't say. -- Only do what only you can do. John Cowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> --Edsger W. Dijkstra, http://www.reutershealth.com deceased 6 August 2002 http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
RE: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
Well, the first occurence of "i18n" in Google's USENET archive seems to be http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=5570339%40hpfcdc.HP.COM from Nov 30, 1989. "l10n" occurs first in http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=1990Aug30.115608.3729%40tsa.co.uk from Aug 30, 1990. --tml
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
Barry Caplan wrote: > There is a link with the story on the fron page of www.i18n.com Nice story, similar to the one with Gary Miller. It seems like we have three stories of origin now (with mid-'80s DEC). The i18n.com version does not date the MIT meeting, does it? markus
RE: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
I can confirm Hiura-san's version. I heard it from Jurgen Bettels, who've I've known
since '84 and worked with Scherpenhuizen in the Geneva office at the time.
Scherpenhuizen managed the ISO work.
In the days when bytes were precious, VMS had a character username limit. Some
anonymous system administrator shortened Scherpenhuizen's username to S12N to fit. It
may have been especially funny because Scherpenhuizen was an unusually large man.
Whatever, it became an office joke for long words. Internationalization had just
become a hot topic in ISO then, so it was applied, and stuck.
I suspect Eamon MacDermott may have been the person who spread the term from DEC to
the rest of the world.
John
-Original Message-
From: Tex Texin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 8:55 AM
To: Hideki Hiura
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
Thanks Hideki!
I went thru my i18n books to scan for mentions. The earliest mention I could find for
i18n (the abbreviation) was 1992, in "Soft Landing in Japan". It seems like 1993 some
books mention it, and 94 and thereafter it is consistently mentioned.
The term "internationalization" seems vendor oriented. IBM preferred "enabling" (and
NLS). I have some early DEC books (87 or so), and the abbreviation wasn't used.
The lack of use in books before 92 could be a choice by the authors that the term was
jargon or slang and wasn't relevant to explaining the concepts.
It seems to have passed from DEC to Unix usage, if we believe the reports I am getting.
I'll make a web page for this, after I get a few more comments. tex
Hideki Hiura wrote:
>
> > From: "Winkler, Arnold F" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sometime
> > around 1991 in a IEEE P1003.1 (POSIX) meeting, Gary Miller (IBM) was
> > writing on the blackboard. After having spelled out
> > Internationalization a few times, he first abbreviated it to I--n
> > and a bit later (obviously after counting the letters in between)
> > used I18N. Sandra might have been at the meeting, and Keld - they
> > might be able to confirm my recollection.
>
> The acronym "I18N" appeared before 1991, since I recall I have already
> used I18N in '89 ;-).
>
> The beginning of this kind of acronym was S12N(Scherpenhuizen) at DEC,
> as far as on the record, as an email address for him on DEC VMS.
>
> By 1985, I18N became an acronym for Internationalization in the I18N
> team at DEC, by following this Scherpenhuizen's S12N convention.
>
> Among the standard organizations, the /usr/group (It became UniForum
> later) was the first one using I18N as an acronym for
> Internationalization, in '88.
>
> --
> hiura@{freestandards.org,OpenI18N.org,li18nux.org,unicode.org,sun.com}
> Chair, Li18nux/Linux Internationalization Initiative, http://www.li18nux.org
> Board of Directors, Free Standards Group,http://www.freestandards.org
> Architect/Sr. Staff Engineer, Sun Microsystems, Inc, USA eFAX: 509-693-8356
--
-
Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com
XenCrafthttp://www.XenCraft.com
Making e-Business Work Around the World
-
RE: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
Radovan Garabik wrote: > Google is your friend :-) > "i18n" is first mentioned in USENET on 30 nov 1989, Cute, I didn't imagine Google archives went all that way back! BTW, the first mention of Unicode on Usenet predates it by eight days: Subject: Re: ASCII for national characters Newsgroups: comp.std.internat From: Donn Terry Date: 1989-11-22 10:43:42 PST (http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=932%40hpfcdc.HP.COM) | [...] | UNICODE: this isn't a standard but is proposed. Unifies the Han | character sets in the same way as the Latin ones (but with | obviously a much bigger payback because of the size). Fixed | length 16 bits. This fixes the length in characters vs. length | in bytes issue. (The issue of length in display space is | inherently harder because characters do vary in width in natural | usage in many phonetic alphabets, as well as in the ideographic | ones. See Arabic and Hindi where the constant-width usage is | considered "pretty awful", albeit readable. (Even in English, | good typesetting is not constant width.)) | [...] The same message also says something about a competing standard: | [...] | ISO10646: 32-bit everything code. Treats the various Han character sets | as distinct character sets for each national usage, but unifies the | Latin characters into a single set. Variable length coding possible | to reduce space. Can degenerate to (something close to) 8859. | [...] _ Marco
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
There is a link with the story on the fron page of www.i18n.com Barry Caplan Publisher, www.i18n.com At 02:02 AM 10/10/2002 -0400, Tex Texin wrote: >I was asked about the origin of these acronyms. Does anyone know who >created these or where they were first used? >tex >-- >- >Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com > >XenCrafthttp://www.XenCraft.com >Making e-Business Work Around the World >-
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
Thanks Hideki!
I went thru my i18n books to scan for mentions. The earliest mention I
could find for i18n (the abbreviation) was 1992, in "Soft Landing in
Japan".
It seems like 1993 some books mention it, and 94 and thereafter it is
consistently mentioned.
The term "internationalization" seems vendor oriented. IBM preferred
"enabling" (and NLS).
I have some early DEC books (87 or so), and the abbreviation wasn't
used.
The lack of use in books before 92 could be a choice by the authors that
the term was jargon or slang and wasn't relevant to explaining the
concepts.
It seems to have passed from DEC to Unix usage, if we believe the
reports I am getting.
I'll make a web page for this, after I get a few more comments.
tex
Hideki Hiura wrote:
>
> > From: "Winkler, Arnold F" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sometime around 1991 in a IEEE P1003.1 (POSIX) meeting, Gary Miller (IBM)
> > was writing on the blackboard. After having spelled out
> > Internationalization a few times, he first abbreviated it to I--n and a bit
> > later (obviously after counting the letters in between) used I18N. Sandra
> > might have been at the meeting, and Keld - they might be able to confirm my
> > recollection.
>
> The acronym "I18N" appeared before 1991, since I recall I have
> already used I18N in '89 ;-).
>
> The beginning of this kind of acronym was S12N(Scherpenhuizen) at
> DEC, as far as on the record, as an email address for him on DEC VMS.
>
> By 1985, I18N became an acronym for Internationalization in the I18N
> team at DEC, by following this Scherpenhuizen's S12N convention.
>
> Among the standard organizations, the /usr/group (It became UniForum
> later) was the first one using I18N as an acronym for
> Internationalization, in '88.
>
> --
> hiura@{freestandards.org,OpenI18N.org,li18nux.org,unicode.org,sun.com}
> Chair, Li18nux/Linux Internationalization Initiative, http://www.li18nux.org
> Board of Directors, Free Standards Group,http://www.freestandards.org
> Architect/Sr. Staff Engineer, Sun Microsystems, Inc, USA eFAX: 509-693-8356
--
-
Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com
XenCrafthttp://www.XenCraft.com
Making e-Business Work Around the World
-
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
The earliest reference I can find to "i18n" in my old e-mail trail is the following e-mail to the "sun!unicode" mail list by Glenn Wright. This was Oct 5, 1989. By that time, the term was definitely current, as Mr. Hiura suggests. Rick - > From upheisei!attunix!sun!glennw Thu Oct 5 15:59:05 EDT 1989 > Date: Thu, 5 Oct 89 12:46:22 PDT > From: sun!glennw (Glenn P. Wright) > To: sun!unicode > Subject: Next Unicode meeting > > Time: > > Monday Oct 9th. 4pm > > Place: > Sun Microsystems, Building 5, 2550 Garcia Avenue > > Agenda: > > Discussion of Current X3L2 proposal status > Discussion on future Unicode committee organisation > Joe will have updates on the Unicode chart > (depending on the As pitching rate) > Liason reports - > X/Open, > Joint i18n meeting, > Ad Hoc meeting in Peking (oops). > > Other (could be lots of this) > > > How to get there >
RE: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
In spite of Arnold's anecdote, I think that I18n was in use long before 1991. I first started using it myself in perhaps 1987, having picked it up from colleagues at Digital Equipment Corporation (remember *them*?); I have no idea where they got the term, though. However, I first encountered L10n quite some years later, possibly as recently as 1994 or 1995, but I don't recall it as clearly. Jim At 07:14 AM 2002-10-10 -0400 Thursday, Winkler, Arnold F wrote: >Tex, > >Here is my recollection: > >Sometime around 1991 in a IEEE P1003.1 (POSIX) meeting, Gary Miller (IBM) >was writing on the blackboard. After having spelled out >Internationalization a few times, he first abbreviated it to I--n and a bit >later (obviously after counting the letters in between) used I18N. Sandra >might have been at the meeting, and Keld - they might be able to confirm my >recollection. > >L10N did not show up until quite some time later. I have no idea who used >it first. Jim Melton --- Editor of ISO/IEC 9075-* (SQL) Phone: +1.801.942.0144 Oracle CorporationOracle Email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 1930 Viscounti Drive Standards email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sandy, UT 84093-1063 Personal email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] USAFax : +1.801.942.3345 = Facts are facts. However, any opinions expressed are the opinions = = only of myself and may or may not reflect the opinions of anybody = = else with whom I may or may not have discussed the issues at hand. =
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
On Thu, Oct 10, 2002 at 07:14:57AM -0400, Winkler, Arnold F wrote: > Tex, > > Here is my recollection: > > Sometime around 1991 in a IEEE P1003.1 (POSIX) meeting, Gary Miller (IBM) > was writing on the blackboard. After having spelled out > Internationalization a few times, he first abbreviated it to I--n and a bit > later (obviously after counting the letters in between) used I18N. Sandra > might have been at the meeting, and Keld - they might be able to confirm my > recollection. I did not attend that meeting. Kind regards keld
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
On Thu, Oct 10, 2002 at 07:14:57AM -0400, Winkler, Arnold F wrote: > Tex, > > Here is my recollection: > > Sometime around 1991 in a IEEE P1003.1 (POSIX) meeting, Gary Miller (IBM) > was writing on the blackboard. After having spelled out > Internationalization a few times, he first abbreviated it to I--n and a bit > later (obviously after counting the letters in between) used I18N. Sandra > might have been at the meeting, and Keld - they might be able to confirm my > recollection. Google is your friend :-) "i18n" is first mentioned in USENET on 30 nov 1989, > > L10N did not show up until quite some time later. I have no idea who used > it first. l10n is first mentioned on 30 august 1990. The posting also mentions that the abbreviation is not widely used. -- --- | Radovan Garabík http://melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk/~garabik/ | | __..--^^^--..__garabik @ melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk | --- Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus. Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!
Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
> From: "Winkler, Arnold F" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sometime around 1991 in a IEEE P1003.1 (POSIX) meeting, Gary Miller (IBM)
> was writing on the blackboard. After having spelled out
> Internationalization a few times, he first abbreviated it to I--n and a bit
> later (obviously after counting the letters in between) used I18N. Sandra
> might have been at the meeting, and Keld - they might be able to confirm my
> recollection.
The acronym "I18N" appeared before 1991, since I recall I have
already used I18N in '89 ;-).
The beginning of this kind of acronym was S12N(Scherpenhuizen) at
DEC, as far as on the record, as an email address for him on DEC VMS.
By 1985, I18N became an acronym for Internationalization in the I18N
team at DEC, by following this Scherpenhuizen's S12N convention.
Among the standard organizations, the /usr/group (It became UniForum
later) was the first one using I18N as an acronym for
Internationalization, in '88.
--
hiura@{freestandards.org,OpenI18N.org,li18nux.org,unicode.org,sun.com}
Chair, Li18nux/Linux Internationalization Initiative, http://www.li18nux.org
Board of Directors, Free Standards Group,http://www.freestandards.org
Architect/Sr. Staff Engineer, Sun Microsystems, Inc, USA eFAX: 509-693-8356
RE: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
Hideki,
You are most likely right that I18N was used much earlier than I was able to
witness. I entered the standards game in 1989 (X3/L2) and started with the
POSIX activity sometime in 1991.
Thanks for remembering.
Arnold
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 10:18 AM
To: Winkler, Arnold F
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
> From: "Winkler, Arnold F" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sometime around 1991 in a IEEE P1003.1 (POSIX) meeting, Gary Miller (IBM)
> was writing on the blackboard. After having spelled out
> Internationalization a few times, he first abbreviated it to I--n and a
bit
> later (obviously after counting the letters in between) used I18N. Sandra
> might have been at the meeting, and Keld - they might be able to confirm
my
> recollection.
The acronym "I18N" appeared before 1991, since I recall I have
already used I18N in '89 ;-).
The beginning of this kind of acronym was S12N(Scherpenhuizen) at
DEC, as far as on the record, as an email address for him on DEC VMS.
By 1985, I18N became an acronym for Internationalization in the I18N
team at DEC, by following this Scherpenhuizen's S12N convention.
Among the standard organizations, the /usr/group (It became UniForum
later) was the first one using I18N as an acronym for
Internationalization, in '88.
--
hiura@{freestandards.org,OpenI18N.org,li18nux.org,unicode.org,sun.com}
Chair, Li18nux/Linux Internationalization Initiative,
http://www.li18nux.org
Board of Directors, Free Standards Group,
http://www.freestandards.org
Architect/Sr. Staff Engineer, Sun Microsystems, Inc, USA eFAX:
509-693-8356
RE: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.?
Tex, Here is my recollection: Sometime around 1991 in a IEEE P1003.1 (POSIX) meeting, Gary Miller (IBM) was writing on the blackboard. After having spelled out Internationalization a few times, he first abbreviated it to I--n and a bit later (obviously after counting the letters in between) used I18N. Sandra might have been at the meeting, and Keld - they might be able to confirm my recollection. L10N did not show up until quite some time later. I have no idea who used it first. Regards Arnold -Original Message- From: Tex Texin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 2:02 AM To: NE Localization SIG; Unicoders Subject: Historians- what is origin of i18n, l10n, etc.? I was asked about the origin of these acronyms. Does anyone know who created these or where they were first used? tex -- - Tex Texin cell: +1 781 789 1898 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Xen Master http://www.i18nGuy.com XenCrafthttp://www.XenCraft.com Making e-Business Work Around the World -
