Re: Live reload in production?
Personally I like the latest project layout with AppModule, DevelopmentModule etc. I would think the default should be off and the value overridden in the DevelopmentModule to on. I also think -Dtapestry.execution-mode=development should be documented on the Getting Started page. Finally I think the sample app should have the values and the documentation for these kinds of settings on the Index page. The easiest way to do that would be to create a DisplayConfig component and put it in the sample Index.tml. I think all the defaults should be set for production but it should be obvious what the recommendations for development are and how to change them. -- View this message in context: http://tapestry.1045711.n5.nabble.com/Live-reload-in-production-tp4313825p5072072.html Sent from the Tapestry - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: Live reload in production?
For 5.4, we can introduce yet another level of indirection that indicates that live reloading is desired in production mode; perhaps an enum to define what gets reloaded. Is there a JIRA issue yet? Thanks Howard - that sounds great. Created issue: https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/TAP5-1789 Not a showstopper - just want to know what my options are... thanks Magnus On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:01 PM, Vangel V. Ajanovski a...@ii.edu.mk wrote: On 20.04.2011 21:03, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo wrote: On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:21:10 -0300, LLTYK ll...@mailinator.com wrote: Disabled, so you automatically get better performance. I don't think you should have to tweak Tapestry options to get better performance. Good point. But a similar argument can be used: enabled, so you get a faster development environment without tweaking options. My gosh, these decisions are hard. :) I would like to know what is truly the nature of the problem with live reload (besides possibility to get the application in an inconsistent state of which every developer is aware). What is the range of the performance penalty? 0.01%, 1%, 5%, 20%, ... is it raising exponentially on the number of all pages? Memory use? Permgen filling too quickly? Is it really only about performance, or does it have other problems too? What other (under the hood) differences do production and development modes have? Howard started this discussion without really explaining the reasons for not having it at all or even the reasons for not having an option that would enable it in production. -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator of Apache Tapestry The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast! (971) 678-5210 http://howardlewisship.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: Live reload in production?
Any update on this? We're about to upgrade to T5.3, but conveniently use template reload in production on rare occasions. From prior discussions a symbol would/could be introduced, but don't seem like it has..? Any way of supporting reload(without production=false)? Or is the dynamic component the way to go? Not a showstopper - just want to know what my options are... thanks Magnus On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:01 PM, Vangel V. Ajanovski a...@ii.edu.mk wrote: On 20.04.2011 21:03, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo wrote: On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:21:10 -0300, LLTYK ll...@mailinator.com wrote: Disabled, so you automatically get better performance. I don't think you should have to tweak Tapestry options to get better performance. Good point. But a similar argument can be used: enabled, so you get a faster development environment without tweaking options. My gosh, these decisions are hard. :) I would like to know what is truly the nature of the problem with live reload (besides possibility to get the application in an inconsistent state of which every developer is aware). What is the range of the performance penalty? 0.01%, 1%, 5%, 20%, ... is it raising exponentially on the number of all pages? Memory use? Permgen filling too quickly? Is it really only about performance, or does it have other problems too? What other (under the hood) differences do production and development modes have? Howard started this discussion without really explaining the reasons for not having it at all or even the reasons for not having an option that would enable it in production.
Re: Live reload in production?
On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 1:20 PM, Magnus Kvalheim mag...@kvalheim.dk wrote: Any update on this? We're about to upgrade to T5.3, but conveniently use template reload in production on rare occasions. From prior discussions a symbol would/could be introduced, but don't seem like it has..? Any way of supporting reload(without production=false)? Or is the dynamic component the way to go? No real options for 5.3; the code simply is not present. I guess you could run in development mode, and change the handling of the exception report (if you are not always doing so). You may experience some minor memory leak issues, as in development mode, component fields with FieldConduits will write values into fields as the FieldConduit's get() or set() method is invoked ... basically, this means that per-thread state can get into a shared page instance and will not be cleared (but will be rapidly overwritten by other threads). It doesn't affect class behavior, the fields are never read, just written to, except in terms of dangling references to otherwise unused objects. For 5.4, we can introduce yet another level of indirection that indicates that live reloading is desired in production mode; perhaps an enum to define what gets reloaded. Is there a JIRA issue yet? Not a showstopper - just want to know what my options are... thanks Magnus On Fri, Apr 22, 2011 at 9:01 PM, Vangel V. Ajanovski a...@ii.edu.mk wrote: On 20.04.2011 21:03, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo wrote: On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:21:10 -0300, LLTYK ll...@mailinator.com wrote: Disabled, so you automatically get better performance. I don't think you should have to tweak Tapestry options to get better performance. Good point. But a similar argument can be used: enabled, so you get a faster development environment without tweaking options. My gosh, these decisions are hard. :) I would like to know what is truly the nature of the problem with live reload (besides possibility to get the application in an inconsistent state of which every developer is aware). What is the range of the performance penalty? 0.01%, 1%, 5%, 20%, ... is it raising exponentially on the number of all pages? Memory use? Permgen filling too quickly? Is it really only about performance, or does it have other problems too? What other (under the hood) differences do production and development modes have? Howard started this discussion without really explaining the reasons for not having it at all or even the reasons for not having an option that would enable it in production. -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator of Apache Tapestry The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast! (971) 678-5210 http://howardlewisship.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: Live reload in production?
On 20.04.2011 21:03, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo wrote: On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:21:10 -0300, LLTYK ll...@mailinator.com wrote: Disabled, so you automatically get better performance. I don't think you should have to tweak Tapestry options to get better performance. Good point. But a similar argument can be used: enabled, so you get a faster development environment without tweaking options. My gosh, these decisions are hard. :) I would like to know what is truly the nature of the problem with live reload (besides possibility to get the application in an inconsistent state of which every developer is aware). What is the range of the performance penalty? 0.01%, 1%, 5%, 20%, ... is it raising exponentially on the number of all pages? Memory use? Permgen filling too quickly? Is it really only about performance, or does it have other problems too? What other (under the hood) differences do production and development modes have? Howard started this discussion without really explaining the reasons for not having it at all or even the reasons for not having an option that would enable it in production. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: Live reload in production?
my $0.02. If it was enabled till today then we should leave it that way. In documentation there should be note that it is possible to speed up significantly application by doing something and with cost of no live class reloads in production. Regards, Michal -- View this message in context: http://tapestry-users.832.n2.nabble.com/Live-reload-in-production-tp6288037p6293772.html Sent from the Tapestry Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: Live reload in production?
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 4:07 PM, Howard Lewis Ship hls...@gmail.com wrote: That's my intention. Live class reloading would be disabled in production, and enable in development. I think that is reasonable, but I think it should be treated similar to tapestry.secure-enabled. By default it is off in development and on in production, but you can override it to turn it on if you need to use security in development mode. That way the majority of users can benefit from sensible defaults while allowing the flexibility for people who need it. I think this type of approach is ideal for handling the paradox of choice issue--particularly in programming frameworks. It keeps things simple for the majority of users, but flexible for people whose needs are a bit different. Mark
Re: Live reload in production?
We have 2 live webapps running and we do not use or rely on live class reloading. Even more, i dont even have access or allowance to change a production website at runtime. Our policy is that everything needs to be tested and accepted before even going to production. If something is wrong or needs to be changed i have to create a new version with the changes and this needs to be re-deployed. If this is not possible we shutdown the app instead of changing a production webapp. -- View this message in context: http://tapestry.1045711.n5.nabble.com/Live-reload-in-production-tp4313825p4315096.html Sent from the Tapestry - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: Live reload in production?
On 19.04.2011 19:11, Howard Lewis Ship wrote: Out of curiosity ... does anyone out there rely on live class (template, message catalog, whatever) reloading in their live, production application? Now, normally, I'd think not, because the deployed app will be packaged in a WAR and the unit of redeployment is the entire WAR ... but I suppose some people could be using the exploded WAR format, which would allow classes and templates to be updated while the application runs. Live reloading was a life saver for me in production. We started with a term enrollment application that supports the whole workflow of a student choosing elective courses and submitting his choice and getting approval by the academic adviser, and also automatic inclusion of students in courses. We went in production with just 90% of the use-cases covered with alpha quality code. While in production we fixed bugs and developed the remaining 10%. So live reloading was very helpful. But this application is constantly growing and has become almost a whole student information system with courses, enrollments, grades, exams, class schedule, finances :) This constant growth and running in production on alpha quality code means that there were and there will be many many bugs. Since the problem is usually in the business logic, not in the GUI itself, the introduction of live reloading of service classes was in fact the most useful thing of all. If you are in position to set it up so that one can choose whether he needs live reloading of all class, just services, or not at all, (or maybe package by package) this would be the best. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: Live reload in production?
On 20.04.2011 01:36, Howard Lewis Ship wrote: Well, then, you're screwed in Tapestry 5.3 :-) Looks like we'll Ouch. How about letting the community vote on this? I would hate to go back to JSP or PHP. probably have to introduce a new symbol to allow this to be enabled in production. But I think the vast majority of deployments will not need Yes, as soon as possible. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: Live reload in production?
On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 06:26:12 -0300, Vangel V. Ajanovski a...@ii.edu.mk wrote: On 20.04.2011 01:36, Howard Lewis Ship wrote: Well, then, you're screwed in Tapestry 5.3 :-) Looks like we'll Ouch. How about letting the community vote on this? I would hate to go back to JSP or PHP. You can stick to 5.2.4 while 5.3 doesn't provide live class reloading in production. Or use 5.3 in non-production mode in production. probably have to introduce a new symbol to allow this to be enabled in production. But I think the vast majority of deployments will not need Yes, as soon as possible. -- Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer, and instructor Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda. Consultor, desenvolvedor e instrutor em Java, Tapestry e Hibernate Coordenador e professor da Especialização em Engenharia de Software com Ênfase em Java da Faculdade Pitágoras http://www.arsmachina.com.br - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: Live reload in production?
probably have to introduce a new symbol to allow this to be enabled in production. But I think the vast majority of deployments will not need At the very least, can there be a patch that could be applied to 5.3 source on this ? On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 7:56 AM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo thiag...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 06:26:12 -0300, Vangel V. Ajanovski a...@ii.edu.mk wrote: On 20.04.2011 01:36, Howard Lewis Ship wrote: Well, then, you're screwed in Tapestry 5.3 :-) Looks like we'll Ouch. How about letting the community vote on this? I would hate to go back to JSP or PHP. You can stick to 5.2.4 while 5.3 doesn't provide live class reloading in production. Or use 5.3 in non-production mode in production. probably have to introduce a new symbol to allow this to be enabled in production. But I think the vast majority of deployments will not need Yes, as soon as possible. -- Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer, and instructor Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda. Consultor, desenvolvedor e instrutor em Java, Tapestry e Hibernate Coordenador e professor da Especialização em Engenharia de Software com Ênfase em Java da Faculdade Pitágoras http://www.arsmachina.com.br - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: Live reload in production?
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 1:36 AM, Howard Lewis Ship hls...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 4:22 PM, Adam Zimowski zimowsk...@gmail.com wrote: Excuse me asking, but with class reloading disabled in production, template reloading still works, correct? My designer who mostly does TML's expects templates be reloadable in production. Well, then, you're screwed in Tapestry 5.3 :-) Looks like we'll probably have to introduce a new symbol to allow this to be enabled in production. But I think the vast majority of deployments will not need this (and may like the increased throughput and lowered memory utilization). I'm on the screwed side of the moon too. I've never planned to use it in production but happened. We discovered a bug in a decision-maker point of the app business and fortunately we had the exploded jar so we simply swapped the bugged class with the fixed one and all was solved and everyone happy. Quick fix is a big win here. After that even I've always kept that feature in mind when plan deploy... Cheers -- Massimo http://meridio.blogspot.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: Live reload in production?
Does anyone out there rely on live class (template, message catalog, whatever) reloading in their live, production application? and what critical benefit does this offer? I've used live class reloading on a production system a few times, but it always felt wrong to me. :) However, keep in mind that the ease of development means some people are going to use Tapestry for things that normally would be handled by a scripting language. In some of those situations live class reloading in production may make sense. I understand the problems with giving people too many options. However it can be really tricky to decide what should be configurable and what need to be fixed. I wouldn't want to use a word processor that only allowed me to type in Times Roman because that was the only font the developers used and they didn't see any reason others would need to use anything different. It seems that the real advantage of having fewer options would be when it lets you keep the code base simpler, but in this case it isn't like you plan to remove the live class reloading capability. It will still be needed for development. But personally it wouldn't hamper any of my current projects if it were turned off in production. Mark - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: Live reload in production?
On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 13:32:17 -0300, Mark mark-li...@xeric.net wrote: I understand the problems with giving people too many options. However it can be really tricky to decide what should be configurable and what need to be fixed. I wouldn't want to use a word processor that only allowed me to type in Times Roman because that was the only font the developers used and they didn't see any reason others would need to use anything different. Agreed. This is an option that is important for Tapestry users. What I think should be discussed is what's the best default value for it: enabled or disabled? -- Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer, and instructor Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda. http://www.arsmachina.com.br - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: Live reload in production?
What I think should be discussed is what's the best default value for it: enabled or disabled? That, to us makes no difference, as long as the option is there in 5.3 :-) On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 12:11 PM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo thiag...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 13:32:17 -0300, Mark mark-li...@xeric.net wrote: I understand the problems with giving people too many options. However it can be really tricky to decide what should be configurable and what need to be fixed. I wouldn't want to use a word processor that only allowed me to type in Times Roman because that was the only font the developers used and they didn't see any reason others would need to use anything different. Agreed. This is an option that is important for Tapestry users. What I think should be discussed is what's the best default value for it: enabled or disabled? -- Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer, and instructor Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda. http://www.arsmachina.com.br - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: Live reload in production?
Disabled, so you automatically get better performance. I don't think you should have to tweak Tapestry options to get better performance. -- View this message in context: http://tapestry-users.832.n2.nabble.com/Live-reload-in-production-tp6288037p6291747.html Sent from the Tapestry Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: Live reload in production?
On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:21:10 -0300, LLTYK ll...@mailinator.com wrote: Disabled, so you automatically get better performance. I don't think you should have to tweak Tapestry options to get better performance. Good point. But a similar argument can be used: enabled, so you get a faster development environment without tweaking options. My gosh, these decisions are hard. :) -- Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer, and instructor Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda. http://www.arsmachina.com.br - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: Live reload in production?
Good point. But a similar argument can be used: enabled, so you get a faster development environment without tweaking options. My gosh, these decisions are hard. :) Couldn't it be enabled by default in development mode and disabled by default in production mode? Isn't that how HTTPS and some other things are handled? Mark - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: Live reload in production?
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 10:03 PM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo thiag...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:21:10 -0300, LLTYK ll...@mailinator.com wrote: Disabled, so you automatically get better performance. I don't think you should have to tweak Tapestry options to get better performance. Good point. But a similar argument can be used: enabled, so you get a faster development environment without tweaking options. My gosh, these decisions are hard. :) Everybody wants better performance but only certain group of users want/need reloading in production. For the whole discussion - personally I think live reloading is the wrong way to solve the application upgrade / patching problem, you give up too much for the benefit. I've been doing skinny wars, deploying dependent libs separately and auto-reloading of the web app for a few years, to achieve production deployment and updates in less than two seconds. Together with Tomcat 7's parallel deployment, you get a nice zero downtime environment. Kalle -- Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer, and instructor Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda. http://www.arsmachina.com.br - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: Live reload in production?
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Mark mark-li...@xeric.net wrote: Good point. But a similar argument can be used: enabled, so you get a faster development environment without tweaking options. My gosh, these decisions are hard. :) Couldn't it be enabled by default in development mode and disabled by default in production mode? Isn't that how HTTPS and some other things are handled? That's my intention. Live class reloading would be disabled in production, and enable in development. Mark - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator of Apache Tapestry The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast! (971) 678-5210 http://howardlewisship.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: Live reload in production?
Hi, In a busy live environment I would prefer disabled by default but still doable programmatically for occasional critical patching. This would allow reloading to be hooked for example to some administrative web service and result in better atomicity if multiple files need to be patched. That said, I currently deploy entire app most of the times. Cheers, --Nikla On 20.4.2011 22:43, Kalle Korhonen wrote: On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 10:03 PM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo thiag...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 15:21:10 -0300, LLTYKll...@mailinator.com wrote: Disabled, so you automatically get better performance. I don't think you should have to tweak Tapestry options to get better performance. Good point. But a similar argument can be used: enabled, so you get a faster development environment without tweaking options. My gosh, these decisions are hard. :) Everybody wants better performance but only certain group of users want/need reloading in production. For the whole discussion - personally I think live reloading is the wrong way to solve the application upgrade / patching problem, you give up too much for the benefit. I've been doing skinny wars, deploying dependent libs separately and auto-reloading of the web app for a few years, to achieve production deployment and updates in less than two seconds. Together with Tomcat 7's parallel deployment, you get a nice zero downtime environment. Kalle -- Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer, and instructor Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda. http://www.arsmachina.com.br - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Live reload in production?
Out of curiosity ... does anyone out there rely on live class (template, message catalog, whatever) reloading in their live, production application? Now, normally, I'd think not, because the deployed app will be packaged in a WAR and the unit of redeployment is the entire WAR ... but I suppose some people could be using the exploded WAR format, which would allow classes and templates to be updated while the application runs. Live reloading is a feature that was originally intended for development only; Tapestry 5.2 supports live reloading in the live application, but as of yesterday, Tapestry 5.3 does NOT. I'm hoping to see some improvements in throughput and a reduction in memory utilization in production applications ... but it's not too late to shift things so that 5.3 can support production reloading as well. I'd prefer not to, however. -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator of Apache Tapestry The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast! (971) 678-5210 http://howardlewisship.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: Live reload in production?
I'm not using 5.2 yet (sigh), but I do use exploded WARs in deployment. -- Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer, and instructor Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda. http://www.arsmachina.com.br - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: Live reload in production?
On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 11:23 AM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo thiag...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 15:21:44 -0300, Howard Lewis Ship hls...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo thiag...@gmail.com wrote: I'm not using 5.2 yet (sigh), but I do use exploded WARs in deployment. Well then, you better add support for that back in, with a new symbol perhaps ;-} The ideal solution was to have a symbol for enabling the live class reloading . . . But I won't ask you that. :) No, you are right about adding Yet Another Symbol. However, I have a philosophical problem with make every change subject to some configuration: it basically abdicates responsibility of the framework developers (us), forcing framework users to make critical decisions. This came up in the excellent book The Paradox of Choice, which is recommended reading. If you look at, for example, Mac/iPhone apps, you'll see consistently that they have fewer options and less configuration than equivalent Windows apps ... and people love them more (I've just seen this with my wife, who starting using Pages after years of Word). Now this specific case is one that treads onto hallowed ground of backwards compatibility, so it may be something where we introduce a symbol, and mark it immediately as deprecated (I always introduce a SymbolConstant static value, to provide documentation, and as a place to hang @Deprecated), so that people have a release to get used to the change. -- Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer, and instructor Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda. http://www.arsmachina.com.br -- Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer, and instructor Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda. Consultor, desenvolvedor e instrutor em Java, Tapestry e Hibernate Coordenador e professor da Especialização em Engenharia de Software com Ênfase em Java da Faculdade Pitágoras http://www.arsmachina.com.br -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator of Apache Tapestry The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast! (971) 678-5210 http://howardlewisship.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: Live reload in production?
On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 2:53 PM, Howard Lewis Ship hls...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 11:23 AM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo thiag...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 15:21:44 -0300, Howard Lewis Ship hls...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 11:07 AM, Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo thiag...@gmail.com wrote: I'm not using 5.2 yet (sigh), but I do use exploded WARs in deployment. Just to be specific: Thiago said he is using exploded WARs in deployment, but I didn't see where he said whether he depends on live class reloading in production. Well then, you better add support for that back in, with a new symbol perhaps ;-} The ideal solution was to have a symbol for enabling the live class reloading . . . But I won't ask you that. :) No, you are right about adding Yet Another Symbol. However, I have a philosophical problem with make every change subject to some configuration: it basically abdicates responsibility of the framework developers (us), forcing framework users to make critical decisions. This came up in the excellent book The Paradox of Choice, which is recommended reading. If you look at, for example, Mac/iPhone apps, you'll see consistently that they have fewer options and less configuration than equivalent Windows apps ... and people love them more (I've just seen this with my wife, who starting using Pages after years of Word). Now this specific case is one that treads onto hallowed ground of backwards compatibility, so it may be something where we introduce a symbol, and mark it immediately as deprecated (I always introduce a SymbolConstant static value, to provide documentation, and as a place to hang @Deprecated), so that people have a release to get used to the change. -- Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer, and instructor Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda. http://www.arsmachina.com.br -- Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer, and instructor Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda. Consultor, desenvolvedor e instrutor em Java, Tapestry e Hibernate Coordenador e professor da Especialização em Engenharia de Software com Ênfase em Java da Faculdade Pitágoras http://www.arsmachina.com.br -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator of Apache Tapestry The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast! (971) 678-5210 http://howardlewisship.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: Live reload in production?
I never used live reloading in production, but it might be a cool marketing weapon. We could promote it as seomthing similar to ZeroTurnaround's LiveRebel: http://www.zeroturnaround.com/liverebel/ Imagine a new slogan on Tapestry's webpage: With Tapestry you can roll out and roll back changes to live applications instantly - without Downtime On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 7:11 PM, Howard Lewis Ship hls...@gmail.com wrote: Out of curiosity ... does anyone out there rely on live class (template, message catalog, whatever) reloading in their live, production application? Now, normally, I'd think not, because the deployed app will be packaged in a WAR and the unit of redeployment is the entire WAR ... but I suppose some people could be using the exploded WAR format, which would allow classes and templates to be updated while the application runs. Live reloading is a feature that was originally intended for development only; Tapestry 5.2 supports live reloading in the live application, but as of yesterday, Tapestry 5.3 does NOT. I'm hoping to see some improvements in throughput and a reduction in memory utilization in production applications ... but it's not too late to shift things so that 5.3 can support production reloading as well. I'd prefer not to, however. -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator of Apache Tapestry The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast! (971) 678-5210 http://howardlewisship.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org -- Best regards, Igor Drobiazko http://tapestry5.de
Re: Live reload in production?
On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 4:00 PM, Igor Drobiazko igor.drobia...@gmail.com wrote: I never used live reloading in production, but it might be a cool marketing weapon. We could promote it as seomthing similar to ZeroTurnaround's LiveRebel: http://www.zeroturnaround.com/liverebel/ Imagine a new slogan on Tapestry's webpage: With Tapestry you can roll out and roll back changes to live applications instantly - without Downtime I don't like to over-promise. Live reloading has some limitations in terms of reloading of service layer objects. I think having a seamless redeploy model is for the application servers to handle, not the framework. Basically, in production, you want to hype fast and stable. In development you want to hype, agile and testable. On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 7:11 PM, Howard Lewis Ship hls...@gmail.com wrote: Out of curiosity ... does anyone out there rely on live class (template, message catalog, whatever) reloading in their live, production application? Now, normally, I'd think not, because the deployed app will be packaged in a WAR and the unit of redeployment is the entire WAR ... but I suppose some people could be using the exploded WAR format, which would allow classes and templates to be updated while the application runs. Live reloading is a feature that was originally intended for development only; Tapestry 5.2 supports live reloading in the live application, but as of yesterday, Tapestry 5.3 does NOT. I'm hoping to see some improvements in throughput and a reduction in memory utilization in production applications ... but it's not too late to shift things so that 5.3 can support production reloading as well. I'd prefer not to, however. -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator of Apache Tapestry The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast! (971) 678-5210 http://howardlewisship.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org -- Best regards, Igor Drobiazko http://tapestry5.de -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator of Apache Tapestry The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast! (971) 678-5210 http://howardlewisship.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: Live reload in production?
Excuse me asking, but with class reloading disabled in production, template reloading still works, correct? My designer who mostly does TML's expects templates be reloadable in production. Adam PS. On a side note, what about a hybrid switch? Like component class reloading but disable service reloading? On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 6:14 PM, Howard Lewis Ship hls...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 4:00 PM, Igor Drobiazko igor.drobia...@gmail.com wrote: I never used live reloading in production, but it might be a cool marketing weapon. We could promote it as seomthing similar to ZeroTurnaround's LiveRebel: http://www.zeroturnaround.com/liverebel/ Imagine a new slogan on Tapestry's webpage: With Tapestry you can roll out and roll back changes to live applications instantly - without Downtime I don't like to over-promise. Live reloading has some limitations in terms of reloading of service layer objects. I think having a seamless redeploy model is for the application servers to handle, not the framework. Basically, in production, you want to hype fast and stable. In development you want to hype, agile and testable. On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 7:11 PM, Howard Lewis Ship hls...@gmail.com wrote: Out of curiosity ... does anyone out there rely on live class (template, message catalog, whatever) reloading in their live, production application? Now, normally, I'd think not, because the deployed app will be packaged in a WAR and the unit of redeployment is the entire WAR ... but I suppose some people could be using the exploded WAR format, which would allow classes and templates to be updated while the application runs. Live reloading is a feature that was originally intended for development only; Tapestry 5.2 supports live reloading in the live application, but as of yesterday, Tapestry 5.3 does NOT. I'm hoping to see some improvements in throughput and a reduction in memory utilization in production applications ... but it's not too late to shift things so that 5.3 can support production reloading as well. I'd prefer not to, however. -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator of Apache Tapestry The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast! (971) 678-5210 http://howardlewisship.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org -- Best regards, Igor Drobiazko http://tapestry5.de -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator of Apache Tapestry The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast! (971) 678-5210 http://howardlewisship.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: Live reload in production?
On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 4:22 PM, Adam Zimowski zimowsk...@gmail.com wrote: Excuse me asking, but with class reloading disabled in production, template reloading still works, correct? My designer who mostly does TML's expects templates be reloadable in production. Well, then, you're screwed in Tapestry 5.3 :-) Looks like we'll probably have to introduce a new symbol to allow this to be enabled in production. But I think the vast majority of deployments will not need this (and may like the increased throughput and lowered memory utilization). Adam PS. On a side note, what about a hybrid switch? Like component class reloading but disable service reloading? On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 6:14 PM, Howard Lewis Ship hls...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 4:00 PM, Igor Drobiazko igor.drobia...@gmail.com wrote: I never used live reloading in production, but it might be a cool marketing weapon. We could promote it as seomthing similar to ZeroTurnaround's LiveRebel: http://www.zeroturnaround.com/liverebel/ Imagine a new slogan on Tapestry's webpage: With Tapestry you can roll out and roll back changes to live applications instantly - without Downtime I don't like to over-promise. Live reloading has some limitations in terms of reloading of service layer objects. I think having a seamless redeploy model is for the application servers to handle, not the framework. Basically, in production, you want to hype fast and stable. In development you want to hype, agile and testable. On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 7:11 PM, Howard Lewis Ship hls...@gmail.com wrote: Out of curiosity ... does anyone out there rely on live class (template, message catalog, whatever) reloading in their live, production application? Now, normally, I'd think not, because the deployed app will be packaged in a WAR and the unit of redeployment is the entire WAR ... but I suppose some people could be using the exploded WAR format, which would allow classes and templates to be updated while the application runs. Live reloading is a feature that was originally intended for development only; Tapestry 5.2 supports live reloading in the live application, but as of yesterday, Tapestry 5.3 does NOT. I'm hoping to see some improvements in throughput and a reduction in memory utilization in production applications ... but it's not too late to shift things so that 5.3 can support production reloading as well. I'd prefer not to, however. -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator of Apache Tapestry The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast! (971) 678-5210 http://howardlewisship.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org -- Best regards, Igor Drobiazko http://tapestry5.de -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator of Apache Tapestry The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast! (971) 678-5210 http://howardlewisship.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator of Apache Tapestry The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast! (971) 678-5210 http://howardlewisship.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: Live reload in production?
I think live reload in production is a terrible idea. Production should be locked down. Even if you are using exploded version of the application, the app server should explicitly be told to reload the app, in which case live reloading is not required. On Apr 19, 2011, at 7:36 PM, Howard Lewis Ship wrote: On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 4:22 PM, Adam Zimowski zimowsk...@gmail.com wrote: Excuse me asking, but with class reloading disabled in production, template reloading still works, correct? My designer who mostly does TML's expects templates be reloadable in production. Well, then, you're screwed in Tapestry 5.3 :-) Looks like we'll probably have to introduce a new symbol to allow this to be enabled in production. But I think the vast majority of deployments will not need this (and may like the increased throughput and lowered memory utilization). Adam PS. On a side note, what about a hybrid switch? Like component class reloading but disable service reloading? On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 6:14 PM, Howard Lewis Ship hls...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 4:00 PM, Igor Drobiazko igor.drobia...@gmail.com wrote: I never used live reloading in production, but it might be a cool marketing weapon. We could promote it as seomthing similar to ZeroTurnaround's LiveRebel: http://www.zeroturnaround.com/liverebel/ Imagine a new slogan on Tapestry's webpage: With Tapestry you can roll out and roll back changes to live applications instantly - without Downtime I don't like to over-promise. Live reloading has some limitations in terms of reloading of service layer objects. I think having a seamless redeploy model is for the application servers to handle, not the framework. Basically, in production, you want to hype fast and stable. In development you want to hype, agile and testable. On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 7:11 PM, Howard Lewis Ship hls...@gmail.com wrote: Out of curiosity ... does anyone out there rely on live class (template, message catalog, whatever) reloading in their live, production application? Now, normally, I'd think not, because the deployed app will be packaged in a WAR and the unit of redeployment is the entire WAR ... but I suppose some people could be using the exploded WAR format, which would allow classes and templates to be updated while the application runs. Live reloading is a feature that was originally intended for development only; Tapestry 5.2 supports live reloading in the live application, but as of yesterday, Tapestry 5.3 does NOT. I'm hoping to see some improvements in throughput and a reduction in memory utilization in production applications ... but it's not too late to shift things so that 5.3 can support production reloading as well. I'd prefer not to, however. -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator of Apache Tapestry The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast! (971) 678-5210 http://howardlewisship.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org -- Best regards, Igor Drobiazko http://tapestry5.de -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator of Apache Tapestry The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast! (971) 678-5210 http://howardlewisship.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator of Apache Tapestry The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast! (971) 678-5210 http://howardlewisship.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: Live reload in production?
I plead to ask, if possible to enable a switch for template reloading. I may be screwed, literally... Adam On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 6:36 PM, Howard Lewis Ship hls...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 4:22 PM, Adam Zimowski zimowsk...@gmail.com wrote: Excuse me asking, but with class reloading disabled in production, template reloading still works, correct? My designer who mostly does TML's expects templates be reloadable in production. Well, then, you're screwed in Tapestry 5.3 :-) Looks like we'll probably have to introduce a new symbol to allow this to be enabled in production. But I think the vast majority of deployments will not need this (and may like the increased throughput and lowered memory utilization). Adam PS. On a side note, what about a hybrid switch? Like component class reloading but disable service reloading? On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 6:14 PM, Howard Lewis Ship hls...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 4:00 PM, Igor Drobiazko igor.drobia...@gmail.com wrote: I never used live reloading in production, but it might be a cool marketing weapon. We could promote it as seomthing similar to ZeroTurnaround's LiveRebel: http://www.zeroturnaround.com/liverebel/ Imagine a new slogan on Tapestry's webpage: With Tapestry you can roll out and roll back changes to live applications instantly - without Downtime I don't like to over-promise. Live reloading has some limitations in terms of reloading of service layer objects. I think having a seamless redeploy model is for the application servers to handle, not the framework. Basically, in production, you want to hype fast and stable. In development you want to hype, agile and testable. On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 7:11 PM, Howard Lewis Ship hls...@gmail.com wrote: Out of curiosity ... does anyone out there rely on live class (template, message catalog, whatever) reloading in their live, production application? Now, normally, I'd think not, because the deployed app will be packaged in a WAR and the unit of redeployment is the entire WAR ... but I suppose some people could be using the exploded WAR format, which would allow classes and templates to be updated while the application runs. Live reloading is a feature that was originally intended for development only; Tapestry 5.2 supports live reloading in the live application, but as of yesterday, Tapestry 5.3 does NOT. I'm hoping to see some improvements in throughput and a reduction in memory utilization in production applications ... but it's not too late to shift things so that 5.3 can support production reloading as well. I'd prefer not to, however. -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator of Apache Tapestry The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast! (971) 678-5210 http://howardlewisship.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org -- Best regards, Igor Drobiazko http://tapestry5.de -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator of Apache Tapestry The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast! (971) 678-5210 http://howardlewisship.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator of Apache Tapestry The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast! (971) 678-5210 http://howardlewisship.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: Live reload in production?
On Tue, 19 Apr 2011 20:39:46 -0300, Adam Zimowski zimowsk...@gmail.com wrote: I plead to ask, if possible to enable a switch for template reloading. I guess this won't be a problem, as it doesn't touch class transformations, proxies, etc. -- Thiago H. de Paula Figueiredo Independent Java, Apache Tapestry 5 and Hibernate consultant, developer, and instructor Owner, Ars Machina Tecnologia da Informação Ltda. http://www.arsmachina.com.br - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
Re: Live reload in production?
Hi Howard, Maybe the question should really be: Does anyone out there rely on live class (template, message catalog, whatever) reloading in their live, production application? and what critical benefit does this offer? I am with you on the paradox of choice. When I roll out new versions, there are usually db schema and directory structure changes not just UI changes. So the roll out has to have the server brought down. I would love to have an atomic updating service. A new war is placed in a staging location. The db update magically happens and then the older server is brought down and replaced with the new server. But absence this magical update genie, I would prefer the performance improvements because that will be useful every day. For those who feel that they need this, is there any sort of hooking that a side project could use to restore this functionality without impact the people who rather take the benefits of not having dynamic class loading in production? Or maybe they just run in development mode on the production box? ( maybe silly statement - but we are still on T4 :-( ) Patrick Moore Amplafi http://amplafi.com mobile: 650-207-9792 Put your front window on your front page personal blog : http://sworddance.com/blog On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 10:11 AM, Howard Lewis Ship hls...@gmail.comwrote: Out of curiosity ... does anyone out there rely on live class (template, message catalog, whatever) reloading in their live, production application? Now, normally, I'd think not, because the deployed app will be packaged in a WAR and the unit of redeployment is the entire WAR ... but I suppose some people could be using the exploded WAR format, which would allow classes and templates to be updated while the application runs. Live reloading is a feature that was originally intended for development only; Tapestry 5.2 supports live reloading in the live application, but as of yesterday, Tapestry 5.3 does NOT. I'm hoping to see some improvements in throughput and a reduction in memory utilization in production applications ... but it's not too late to shift things so that 5.3 can support production reloading as well. I'd prefer not to, however. -- Howard M. Lewis Ship Creator of Apache Tapestry The source for Tapestry training, mentoring and support. Contact me to learn how I can get you up and productive in Tapestry fast! (971) 678-5210 http://howardlewisship.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@tapestry.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@tapestry.apache.org
