RE: [WSG] Farewell (was : Out of Office)
Why not create a rule to filter out messages with out of office in the subject or text of the message, instead of leaving the group, entirely. Rick From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Reactivo Química Visual Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 4:37 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Farewell (was : Out of Office) I can understand you... it's annoying. 2011/12/16 Philip TAYLOR p.tay...@rhul.ac.uk Just to let you all know that the number of out of office messages has now reached the point where I feel I have no option but to leave the list. Goodbye, and it was nice talking to you all. Philip Taylor *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Desktop. Tablet. Mobile.
Looks nice on a Samsung Fascinate! Rick From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Stuart Shearing Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 2:04 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Desktop. Tablet. Mobile. Hi Birendra To say that the site design is not good is fairly subjective and not really the point of a “standards” group anyway. Yes, on a desktop browser (firefox 4) it looks fairly ordinary but it looks effective enough on my HTC Android and on the iPhone 4. I don’t have access to a tablet so I can’t comment further. Heavy use of graphics and gradients would make the site slower to download, especially if the end user was accessing the site over a cellular network. Just my two cents. Stuart From: Birendra mailto:biren...@viteb.com Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 1:08 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Desktop. Tablet. Mobile. HI The Site Design is not good. It’s something like someone create a site for practice. Some of the basic things need to be care… like Copyright font as been small then rest of the site fonts. In the iphone menu shown at the middle of the page. Simply it say the site has created on 1970’s theme. Have to use some graphics, gradient which give some life in the site. Regards Birendra (Web Designer) From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of David Laakso Sent: Friday, May 06, 2011 9:40 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Desktop. Tablet. Mobile. First-pass. Comments and suggestions appreciated. This end... Desktop: OS X 10.4 Tablet: No got. Mobile: OperaMini os SanyoMirro 4 BoostMobile. uri: http://chelseacreekstudio.com/m/ http://chelseacreekstudio.com/m/ Thanks. Best, ~d -- http://chelseacreekstudio.com/ http://chelseacreekstudio.com/fa/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] To marquee or not to marquee here is the question!!!
Friends don't let friends use marquee!!! From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Jason Grant Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2011 9:02 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] To marquee or not to marquee here is the question!!! Use a marquee! Go on! Be brave! Be different! I dare you! :-D Hilarious! On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 1:57 PM, dionisis karampinis dkarampi...@gmail.com wrote: Greetings to everyone, I prepare a web project (wordpress), where my boss desires a horizontal news ticker scrolling from left to right at the top of my header!!! It is something i would not propose to anyone to do, but unfortunately i have to do it.. Initially i used the li scroller from http://www.gcmingati.net/wordpress/wp-content/lab/jquery/newsticker/jq-liscr oll/scrollanimate.html , which is extremely slow and uses huge CPU resources, especially when using it with IE8, but almost the same thing happens with Firefox, Safari, Chrome and Opera... I cant figure out if this a .js problem or something to do with wordpress loop (as this is a custom loop which creates an unordered lists of some particular posts). At the same time marquee seems to do the job, extremely fast and without 'eating' my CPU's resources!!! I know that the particular html tag is a big NO NO these days and a not semantic element whatsoever... The situation is really tough as i need good performance and at the same time, to only use semantic elements in my code!!! If anyone has been through these problems before or knows anything about it i would really appreciate it!!! Best regards and many thanks to everyone!!! Have a good day. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] mobile
Hi, David. Good design.and the paintings are nice, too! ;o) Two comments. 1) I recommend a Home link on all pages. I tried to get back Home and couldn't find a way to get there, until I just happened to click on your name at the top. 2) Just a minor thing, but I think the Show / Hide Details would look better centered under each image. Overall, a nice clean design. Well done. Looks great on my Samsung Fascinate. Rick From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Janice Schwarz Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 4:42 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] mobile Very nice mobile design. Works great too! Sent from my Droid On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 2:16 PM, David Laakso da...@chelseacreekstudio.com wrote: If anyone has time to check this site [portrait/landscape] in their mobile device it is greatly appreciated. http://chelseacreekstudio.com/fa/ Best, ~d *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] mobile
+ 1 From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Julie Romanowski Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 9:42 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] mobile It loaded quickly on my iPhone4 through the mobile connection. Personally, I would prefer additional options to view the paintings, such as thumbnails where the user can select specific paintings. Having to go through every painting can be an issue especially for people who don’t have a good connection. From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Jason Grant Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 8:21 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] mobile Takes fng years to load up on my iPhone4 through the mobile connection, so I would say that's a #fail. Optimise that by all means. Design is clean, nice chunky, prodabble buttons which is cool, but not sure of the navigation paradigm from usability perspective (couldn't test for longer as it was taking ages for each page). Overall I think it's a good first draft. Keep going. Cheers, @flexewebs Sent from my iPhone On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 2:16 PM, David Laakso da...@chelseacreekstudio.com wrote: If anyone has time to check this site [portrait/landscape] in their mobile device it is greatly appreciated. http://chelseacreekstudio.com/fa/ Best, ~d *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] staff page vallidation
He's not spamming, Krystian...he's blind and having trouble with the updated validation site he's used to using. Apparently, it's been changed and doesn't work well for the blind anymore. And I'm sure his replies to responses from this list are slower than for those who can see, so chances are, his replies lag behind many responses, making it seem as if he's ignoring assistance. I won't sit in judgment of a blind person because his participation in the we-are-here to-help-development-standards-to-make-websites-easier-to-use-for-blind-peopl e list isn't up to standards... Rick -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Krystian Szastok Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 5:21 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] staff page vallidation What the hell? Can someone stop this guy from spamming?? I opened my emails today and I had almost the whole first page of Google spammed by emails from the group, most of them by this one guy, please do something about this. Thanks, Krystian On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 8:53 AM, Marvin Hunkin startrekc...@gmail.com wrote: hi. can you help me out. sorry for this. marvin. Markup Validation Service Check the markup (HTML, XHTML, .) of Web documents Jump To:Validation Output Errors found while checking this document as XHTML 1.0 Transitional! Result: 2 Errors File: Use the file selection box above if you wish to re-validate the uploaded file C:\Docs\Tafe\CertificateFourWebsites\CertFour\PrinciplesOfVisualDesign\Princ iplesOfVisualDesign\html\staff.html Encoding: iso-8859-1 (detect automatically) utf-8 (Unicode, worldwide) utf-16 (Unicode, worldwide) iso-8859-1 (Western Europe) iso-8859-2 (Central Europe) iso-8859-3 (Southern Europe) iso-8859-4 (North European) iso-8859-5 (Cyrillic) iso-8859-6-i (Arabic) iso-8859-7 (Greek) iso-8859-8 (Hebrew, visual) iso-8859-8-i (Hebrew, logical) iso-8859-9 (Turkish) iso-8859-10 (Latin 6) iso-8859-11 (Latin/Thai) iso-8859-13 (Latin 7, Baltic Rim) iso-8859-14 (Latin 8, Celtic) iso-8859-15 (Latin 9) iso-8859-16 (Latin 10) us-ascii (basic English) euc-jp (Japanese, Unix) shift_jis (Japanese, Win/Mac) iso-2022-jp (Japanese, email) euc-kr (Korean) gb2312 (Chinese, simplified) gb18030 (Chinese, simplified) big5 (Chinese, traditional) Big5-HKSCS (Chinese, Hong Kong) tis-620 (Thai) koi8-r (Russian) koi8-u (Ukrainian) iso-ir-111 (Cyrillic KOI-8) macintosh (MacRoman) windows-1250 (Central Europe) windows-1251 (Cyrillic) windows-1252 (Western Europe) windows-1253 (Greek) windows-1254 (Turkish) windows-1255 (Hebrew) windows-1256 (Arabic) windows-1257 (Baltic Rim) Doctype: XHTML 1.0 Transitional (detect automatically) HTML5 (experimental) XHTML 1.0 Strict XHTML 1.0 Transitional XHTML 1.0 Frameset HTML 4.01 Strict HTML 4.01 Transitional HTML 4.01 Frameset HTML 3.2 HTML 2.0 ISO/IEC 15445:2000 (ISO HTML) XHTML 1.1 XHTML + RDFa XHTML Basic 1.0 XHTML Basic 1.1 XHTML Mobile Profile 1.2 XHTML-Print 1.0 XHTML 1.1 plus MathML 2.0 XHTML 1.1 plus MathML 2.0 plus SVG 1.1 MathML 2.0 SVG 1.0 SVG 1.1 SVG 1.1 Tiny SVG 1.1 Basic SMIL 1.0 SMIL 2.0 Root Element: html Root Namespace: http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml The W3C CSS validator is developed with assistance from the Mozilla Foundation, and supported by community donations. Donate and help us build better tools for a better web.OptionsShow Source Show Outline List Messages Sequentially Group Error Messages by Type Validate error pages Verbose Output Clean up Markup with HTML Tidy Help on the options is available. ? Top Validation Output: 2 Errors Line 32, Column 6: document type does not allow element br here; assuming missing li start-tag br /? Line 34, Column 5: end tag for li omitted, but OMITTAG NO was specified /ul? You may have neglected to close an element, or perhaps you meant to self-close an element, that is, ending it with / instead of . Line 32: start tag was here br /? Top Home | About... | News | Docs | Help FAQ | Feedback | Contribute | This service runs the W3C Markup Validator, v0.8.5. Copyright © 1994-2009 W3C® (MIT, ERCIM, Keio), All Rights Reserved. W3C liability, trademark, document use and software licensing rules apply. Your interactions with this site are in accordance with our public and Member privacy statements. !DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd; html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; head meta http-equiv=content-type content=text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 / titleJoe's Staff Page/title link href=../styles/joe_style.css rel=stylesheet type=text/css / /head body a name = Top/a div id=wrapper div id=banner_new h1Joe's Staff Page/h1 br / br / img src=../images/fruit.jpg alt=Fruit / /div div id=navigation br / br / ul lia href=index.htmlHome/a/li lia href=produce.htmlAll Produce/a/li lia href=recipes.htmlRecipes/a/li lia
RE: [WSG] new site review
Looks good, Raul! I'm able to read the text without problem, on both analog and digital monitors. Don't make the text contrast any less, however, especially in the menu, as those with lesser quality monitors and poorer eyesight might have difficulty reading it. Would recommend a Home menu item, just because it's so common. I knew to click on the logo, but others may not think of that so readily. I like the contrasting blue...nice menu rollover image...readily available contact info... call to action...good...informative overview of your process...attractive graphics... good consistent layout...like the quotes and photos under the header on each page... Good job! I can tell you put a lot of thought into the styling of your site and it has paid off! Rick -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Raul Ferrer Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 2:07 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] new site review Hi guys! It's been quite a long time since I last contributed to this list but I've been busy making my own website. It's built on Expression Engine (my first one with this CMS) and I'd really would like to know what you guys think. http://www.raulferrer.com Things to keep in mind: the portfolio and services are there but they're not completely finished, 'cause I want to develop each service and each client more deeply. Other than that is more or less done. I'm working on the multiple languages (it's going to be in 5 languages), so it's still needs some work to do. Thanks in advance! Cheers Raul PD: I've tested it with FF2 FF3, IE6, 7 8, Opera 9, Safari 4 and Chrome 3. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible websites
sine qua non also means most basic - yes, it is the most critical aspect of accessibility to information, if the information is contained in textual form, but it is only the most primal level of accessibility to be offered. New techniques, well not actually new, but finally unleashed legally, are being deployed which will allow designers to use any font desired and I'm not so sure that end users will have much control over the display of those fonts embedded in the site. Those font/design techniques, I believe, will dominate web design and could soon make all discussion of font manipulation a mute point, which will drive us towards other solutions, such as whole browser magnification, etc. On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 7:12 AM, Stuart Foulstone stu...@bigeasyweb.co.ukwrote: sine qua non = indispensible On Thu, July 2, 2009 9:27 pm, Rick Faircloth wrote: It is the sine qua non of accessibility And that's exactly the point I'm trying to make...just addressing the font-size issue is the most basic form of accomodation possible. We can do better. On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 3:48 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson c...@freeshell.orgwrote: On Thu, 2 Jul 2009, Rick Faircloth wrote: But how will you magnify the images and layout as designed for me to view? Addressing font issues is only the absolute basic attempt to make the web more accessible...It's important to be able to see how something is said and with what supporting content and context, rather than just what is said. Focusing on font-size is quite an antiquated, limited view of accessiblity. It is the sine qua non of accessibility. It's not the only issue, but it is the most basic. Magnification of entire monitor screens (not just decreasing resolution), and browser magnification address all the issues, and in a very satisfying and simple manner, rather than asking/requiring web designers/developers to spend countless hours trying to code around the issues. There is no issue to code around. The only issue is overspecifying sizes which leads to inaccessible pages. Less is more. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster http://woodbine-gerrard.com === Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- -- Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation. Henry Kissinger *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- -- Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation. Henry Kissinger *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible websites
Yes, 'moot'...thanks for the correction... I'm not sure how the technological change will actually affect the interaction between end user and designer as far as who has final control of the presentation. Font embedding is not something that I've spent much time on. I can't find the reference now, but read recently that the font industry was finally beginning to get its act together and license fonts for embedding or download or whatever the technique is, through a clearinghouse to which designers would pay one of several fee options to be able to use licensed fonts in their sites. This opens up worlds of creative options and will complicate the issues of deriving meaning from text only, vs layout/text/graphics, etc. I just think the writing is on the wall that font manipulation has had its day, but will soon be overrun by more satisfying options that will have to be deployed by browser creators, rather than end users who will eventually have little or no control over how information is presented to them as a whole, rather than just on the font size they read. Rick On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 10:12 AM, michael.brocking...@bt.com wrote: I don't really see how the ability to download fonts (that is what you are talking about, isn't it?), will affect web accessibility significantly. It will have a big impact on design, but the technological change surely only affects the back-end of the web browser, not the actual display. PS I presume you meant 'moot' not 'mute' ? Regards, Mike From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org on behalf of Rick Faircloth Sent: Fri 03/07/2009 14:01 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessible websites sine qua non also means most basic - yes, it is the most critical aspect of accessibility to information, if the information is contained in textual form, but it is only the most primal level of accessibility to be offered. New techniques, well not actually new, but finally unleashed legally, are being deployed which will allow designers to use any font desired and I'm not so sure that end users will have much control over the display of those fonts embedded in the site. Those font/design techniques, I believe, will dominate web design and could soon make all discussion of font manipulation a mute point, which will drive us towards other solutions, such as whole browser magnification, etc. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- -- Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation. Henry Kissinger *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible websites
Yes, thanks for the reference, Richard. I believe that's exactly what I was reading about. On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Richard Stephenson donkeyma...@gmail.comwrote: I think this may be the service to which you refer... http://www.typekit.com http://blog.typekit.com -- DonkeyMagic: Website design development http://www.donkeymagic.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- -- Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation. Henry Kissinger *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible websites
But how will you magnify the images and layout as designed for me to view? Addressing font issues is only the absolute basic attempt to make the web more accessible...It's important to be able to see how something is said and with what supporting content and context, rather than just what is said. Focusing on font-size is quite an antiquated, limited view of accessiblity. Magnification of entire monitor screens (not just decreasing resolution), and browser magnification address all the issues, and in a very satisfying and simple manner, rather than asking/requiring web designers/developers to spend countless hours trying to code around the issues. On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Felix Miata mrma...@earthlink.net wrote: On 2009/07/02 08:46 (GMT-0700) Dennis Lapcewich composed: The technical term is presbyopia, a physical inability of the lens of the eye to focus properly. Specifically, the lens loses its elasticity and ability to properly focus on near objects. It is a natural course of aging. Onset is often between the ages of 40-50, however, it has been seen at earlier ages. In web terms, one's ability to obtain information from computer monitors (web pages) will decrease as one ages, without correction. The normal method of correction is bifocal lenses, even trifocal lenses in some cases. As pointed out in another email in this thread, taking advantage of a browser's magnifications abilities through accessibility coding techniques is an excellent example to address this. Zoom, minimum text size and magnifiers are defense mechanisms. The basic problem is the pervasive offense - not respecting users' font size choices by incorporating them at 100% for the bulk of content. Thus, an even better way to address presbyopia is to design to make defenses unnecessary in the first place. It's rather difficult to overstate the issue when over the course of time, presbyopia is pretty much 100 percent universal within the human population. -- No Jesus - No peace , Know Jesus - Know Peace Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- -- Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation. Henry Kissinger *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible websites
It is the sine qua non of accessibility And that's exactly the point I'm trying to make...just addressing the font-size issue is the most basic form of accomodation possible. We can do better. On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 3:48 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson c...@freeshell.orgwrote: On Thu, 2 Jul 2009, Rick Faircloth wrote: But how will you magnify the images and layout as designed for me to view? Addressing font issues is only the absolute basic attempt to make the web more accessible...It's important to be able to see how something is said and with what supporting content and context, rather than just what is said. Focusing on font-size is quite an antiquated, limited view of accessiblity. It is the sine qua non of accessibility. It's not the only issue, but it is the most basic. Magnification of entire monitor screens (not just decreasing resolution), and browser magnification address all the issues, and in a very satisfying and simple manner, rather than asking/requiring web designers/developers to spend countless hours trying to code around the issues. There is no issue to code around. The only issue is overspecifying sizes which leads to inaccessible pages. Less is more. -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster http://woodbine-gerrard.com === Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- -- Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation. Henry Kissinger *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [Spam] :RE: [WSG] Accessible websites (was: accessible free web hosting account)
Web accessibility is being more properly handled by browser creators using magnification functionality, which more effectively provides a better, more satisfying user experience because images, as well as text, can be magnified. While previous magnification functionality has required users to scroll horizontally, that, too, is being addressed by browser creators. So designers can be a good bridge to a better future for users, ultimately the browser creators will provide better solutions than we can...and I'm a visually impaired user who does not want to have a better view of only the text, but the entire layout as designed. Rick On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 5:33 PM, Dennis Lapcewich dlapcew...@fs.fed.uswrote: If you are unsure that web accessibility should play a role, take this test. In a group of people have everyone stand up. Those who are unable to stand may remain seated. Now pose these three requests, in order: 1) If you are wear glasses, contacts and/or have had corrective eye surgery, please sit down. 2) Of those who remain standing, if you know for a fact you are color-blind, please sit down. 3) Of those who now remain standing, everyone aged 35-40 or more, please sit down. Those who are left standing have little to no immediate need for web accessibility, but they will in time. Of those who sat down, while many (most?) may not meet a legal definition as being disabled, for all intents and purposes they are web disabled and are in immediate need of web accessibility. I average 80 percent or more end up sitting down every time I perform this test. The short three question test is not scientific. It is not technically accurate. But as an illustrative tool to raise accessibility awareness, it is 100 percent effective. Here in the USA, 20 percent of the population is disabled. That's sixty million people. Many of these disabilities have no connection with web accessibility. If you believe web accessibility provides no revenue return for a site owner, think again. Those who possess the wealth and spend the money are those who are sitting down. They are the ones that vote. It only took one blind person in California to bring down target.com, using a law not written to address web accessibility. Accessibility is not about the law. It's about doing the right thing. And when it comes to web accessibility, everyone at some point will be a disabled web user. Dennis Lapcewich US Forest Service Webmaster DRM Civil Rights POC Pacific Northwest Region - Vancouver, WA 360.891.5024 - Voice | 360.891.5045 - Fax dlapcew...@fs.fed.us People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it. -- George Bernard Shaw “…where conflicting interests must be reconciled, the question will always be decided from the standpoint of the greatest good of the greatest number in the long run.” --Gifford Pinchot, Chief Forester, 1905 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- -- Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation. Henry Kissinger *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Was given a shocker this week ...
Sounds like a nightmare, Mike. I wonder if the former web designer has any real claim to copyright on the site's original graphics, or did the client pay to be owner of the site's graphics in their original agreement? Rick From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Mike Kear Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 12:42 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Was given a shocker this week ... You might be amused to learn about the site I was given to rebuild this week.It was built by a photographer who had a mac and some free software, and the client said the problem was she had to get someone to update it for her every time she changed anything in her business. She wanted a content management system. That's no problem for me - that's mostly what I do . But I was appalled when I saw the site she was asking me to rebuild .. . here's what I found - the work of a woman who was claiming to be a professional web designer: [A] the site consisted of 8 html pages [B] each page consisted of some invalid html code produced by a WYSIWYG app, presumably used incorrectly since most WYSIWYG apps are CAPABLE of producing valid code. [C] the content on each page consisted of a single image for the header 1169px x 168px and another jpg image with all the text, photos etc 702px x 961px [D] because of the sizes of the header image and the body image, none of the pages could ever possibly line up across the page without a lot of tinkering about. [E] the html contained no content whatever, except the name of the designer [F] all links inside the pages were using image maps - something I haven't used for about ten years. I don't think I'd even remember how to do that now if I had to. [G] the layout problems caused by the different widths of the header and the image in the body were corrected by nesting tables with lots of cells and a transparent spacer gif to stretch the cells out. I didn't bother working out why there were so many of these spacer tables, I knew at a glance I wasn't going to be needing anything in this code! [H] because my client has had such trouble getting her site updated on a timely basis, she has taken the site away and is hosting it with me, which has sparked off a war between my client and her former web designer, complaining that I have taken her site by using a web archive, in violation of her rights to copyright. (As a first step, I used a browser to copy the files from her existing site, so I could see what's in there, just in case the former designer decided to take it off line.Which she did. So it was a good precaution. Then while my client and I are discussing her new site, I put the existing one up in her new hosting space with me just so the site stays alive while we work out what to do.You can almost hear the former web designer frothing at the mouth as she rants and raves on the phone DEMANDING that I pull everything down off the web within ONE HOUR - OR ELSE!!) It's like a cat fight.I'm expecting to see them both pulling each others hair, biting, and rolling in the mud any time soon. Anyway, I'd done quite a few sites now that I've enhanced by making them standards compliant, but I think this is the most extreme case I've seen - well since I tried Frontpage v2.0 all those years ago. Maybe I can write it up as a case study later when the new site is up. If the client agrees. Cheers Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia 0422 985 585 Adobe Certified Advanced ColdFusion Developer AFP Webworks Pty Ltd http://afpwebworks.com Full Scale ColdFusion hosting from A$15/month *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] add to favorites?
As was mentioned, it's a call to action. Those who are familiar with marketing will understand this concept. Also, it a user-friendly way to compel a user to bookmark the site for future reference without jumping through the hoops the browsers require. It's the same principle as putting Call us today at 918-878-8787 for more info. Instead of just putting 918-878-8787. Rick -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of David Dorward Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:14 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites? designer wrote: Does anyone know of a modern, valid, reasonably cross-browser way to provide a link on a page so that a user can add the page to favourites? As far as I know, Microsoft are the only vendor to have implemented a system for triggering bookmark/favourite adding from a webpage. In my opinion, the lack of support is a good thing. I can think of two reasons why you might want to have such a feature. 1. To help users who don't know how to use the feature their browser has built in. ... but if they don't know how to add them, then they probably don't know how to go back to them. 2. To cover up a Oh, you have to love this website, please add it to your bookmarks, pretty please message with something resembling something useful. ... which is just tacky. Are there any other reasons? -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] add to favorites?
Apparently this list is not aware of many marketing practices, as the original poster was challenged as to the appropriateness as to the use of a standard marketing practice. If list members do not want to discuss topics, they should not bring them up. I didn't start this discussion, but I'll be glad to finish it and educate the list as to the many marketing partices of which some are not aware. Rick -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 12:19 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites? This list is aware of many marketing practices that are against Web Standards. On Wed, March 25, 2009 3:46 pm, Rick Faircloth wrote: No, previous arguments still miss the point. Having a button on a browser for booksmarks is not comparable to having a Bookmark this page link on the browser screen. The link on the page is in the field-of-focus of a site visitor, whereas the browser button is not, making the idea of bookmarking the site more likely to come to mind and therefore, acted upon. Also, the words, Bookmark this page are a call or prompt to action, whereas the simple existence of a button with Bookmark identifies the button, but offers no encouragement to the user to user the button. It's the difference between walking into a room with another door and see a sign that says, walk through this door, as opposed to just seeing the door. Both offer the opportunity to use the door, but the words walk through this door definitely causes the visitor to the room to consider using the door, whereas the simple existence of the door may be reacted to in multiple ways, including walking through the door, avoiding the door, and ignoring the door. Again, call-to-action, marketing concept which you may or may not understand. Rick From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Maben Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 11:18 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites? On Mar 25, 2009, at 10:10 AM, Steve Green wrote: It's not just replicating browser functionality - it's a call to action. But the action you're calling for is indeed a replication of browser functionality. Calling something by another name does not change what it is. So previously stated arguments against doing it still stand. Andrew Maben www.andrewmaben.net and...@andrewmaben.com In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] add to favorites?
A call-to-action Bookmark This Page does not provide the same functionality as a browser's bookmarking button when functionality is extended to include psychological functionality from the designer's perspective. From a technical perspective, a bookmarking link and a bookmarking browser button can be used to achieve the same result, however, from the perspective of attempting to achieve the goal of affecting user behavior (or a user's function or performance), a link is *far* more functional than a browser's built-in bookmarking facility. Expand your definition of functionality. Rick -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Steve Green Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 12:23 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites? From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Maben Sent: 25 March 2009 15:18 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites? On Mar 25, 2009, at 10:10 AM, Steve Green wrote: It's not just replicating browser functionality - it's a call to action. But the action you're calling for is indeed a replication of browser functionality. Calling something by another name does not change what it is. So previously stated arguments against doing it still stand. Andrew Maben www.andrewmaben.net and...@andrewmaben.com -- It makes no sense to me that you would provide a call to action and then not provide a means for the user to perform that action when it is so easy to do so. That will inevitably result in fewer people performing the action than would have done if you provided the means to do so. That's fine if it's your site but you are doing your clients a disservice if you do it to theirs. Steve *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] add to favorites?
Quite right, Janice. When you have a boss, you do as the boss says, like it or not. Or quit, or be fired. Those are the options. No web standard is worth the loss of employment. If anyone wants to make the final decision about standards adherence, become the boss. Rick -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Janice Schwarz Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 2:14 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites? I'm new to this group, so I can't speak for anyone else. However, this sounds like something that would be of interest to me. I'm certainly game for hearing how other people handle these conflicts, how they arrive at their decisions, and so on. The simple fact is that regardless of our commitment to web standards, many are often in the position where we don't get to make the call as to whether we can adhere to those standards or not. Sometimes, if we want to keep our day jobs or clients as freelancers, we have to pick our battles and sometimes pick and choose what we can get them to comply with and what we're willing to let go of. Janice -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Steve Green Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:56 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites? Is this list interested in discussing how to balance the conflicting requirements of various stakeholders (including marketers) or does it take the dogmatic position that compliance with web stardards trumps everything else? Steve *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] add to favorites?
The correct design (and web standards that are adhered to or not) is that design for which the client is paying. Web designers should offer suggestions and guidance to those who hire them for their expertise, but the decision to follow or disregard standards is up to the person footing the bill. A standard could be imposed on all concerned that would make driving accessible to the blind...it certainly is technically possible...however, the cost is simply too high to make that a reality. Likewise, site owners may be under time and monetary restraints that prohibit making their websites accessible to all. Or they may just choose not to...again, it's the boss's choice, not the designer's. Rick -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of designer Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 2:03 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites? My justification for wanting to do this is simple, and in my eyes, very sensible. However, it will no doubt cause ructions amongst the evangelists. I want to use frames. Frames, contrary to popular myth, are not an accessibility nightmare. The simple 2-frame frameset I have made validates perfectly, and passes the WCAG priority 3 test. We could argue about 'best practice' but that's not what we are here for. My thinking on this is that I've put a red 'home' link to the frameset on the top of every page that appears in the main frame, so that if I could 'add to favorites' the same way, a user can save the page and return to it later AND get back to the main frameset with one click. Hence, one of the valid criticisms of using frames is shot dead. Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] add to favorites?
This seems like a good solution and I certainly would use it. But the others who are against bookmarking links could not without violating principle. Although that single link provides a lot of convenience for the user, they could still visit all 11 plus sites to register their site on delicious, digg, google, facebook, twitter, etc. Therefore, according to the principle of unobtrusiveness and duplication of functionality defended by many on this list, that user convenience would be unacceptable. Too bad.this would have been a great enhancement to the user experience and, I'm sure, would be appreciated by the business interests whose links are represented. Rick From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 4:05 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites? I have found using a service such as http://www.addthis.com/ which includes add to favorites/bookmark is fine. Bruce Prochnau BKDesign Solutions - Original Message - From: Andrew Maben mailto:and...@andrewmaben.com To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites? I am not so arrogant as to even wish to speak for this list, but on my own account I'll say that this question is disingenuous. Obviously our work constantly involves balancing requirements. An important part of that balancing act is to provide the benefit of our expertise to stakeholders. And painful as it may be, part of that includes educating people who do not yet understand that this truly is a new medium and as such all too often old approaches are irrelevant or counter-productive - e.g. in spite of a growing body of evidence on banner blindness, naive site owners often still want banner-like graphics. In the context of the given question (and no you don't need to explain marketing to me - I've worked in advertising for 20+ years) the call to action falls *outside* the vendor environment (the site) and into the customer environment (the browser). As mentioned by others, this functionality is *already available* to any user, should s/he choose. Having said that, I would suggest to the client that this is at best unhelpful, at worst intrusive. But there are simple ways to encourage a user to share the site on delicious, facebook, etc. and these provide value to both vendor and customer - and are not limited to a subset of browsers, and can be standards-compliant. Andrew www.andrewmaben.net and...@andrewmaben.com In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions. (Forgive me if this duplicates the prior version) On Mar 25, 2009, at 12:56 PM, Steve Green wrote: -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone Sent: 25 March 2009 16:19 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites? This list is aware of many marketing practices that are against Web Standards. -- Is this list interested in discussing how to balance the conflicting requirements of various stakeholders (including marketers) or does it take the dogmatic position that compliance with web stardards trumps everything else? Steve *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] add to favorites?
Spend a little time on Google searching internet marketing call to action bookmark this page and you'll get a ton of info on the subject and you'll see many other examples that are similar to bookmarking, such as Subscribe to my RSS feed... even though there is a button right on the page already. These types of call-to-action are typically scattered throughout a page's content and are considered critical for successful marketing. Rick -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Maben Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 11:41 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites? The argument continues to be shaky at best. ...compel a user... in particular seems to display a fundamental misunderstanding of the realities of the web as a medium. I wonder if anyone knows of any user studies around this question: Is this an often-requested feature? When available, is it a much-used feature? I would guess that the answer is no in both cases - but by all means prove me wrong! Andrew On Mar 25, 2009, at 11:20 AM, Rick Faircloth wrote: As was mentioned, it's a call to action. Those who are familiar with marketing will understand this concept. Also, it a user-friendly way to compel a user to bookmark the site for future reference without jumping through the hoops the browsers require. It's the same principle as putting Call us today at 918-878-8787 for more info. Instead of just putting 918-878-8787. Rick -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of David Dorward Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:14 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites? designer wrote: Does anyone know of a modern, valid, reasonably cross-browser way to provide a link on a page so that a user can add the page to favourites? As far as I know, Microsoft are the only vendor to have implemented a system for triggering bookmark/favourite adding from a webpage. In my opinion, the lack of support is a good thing. I can think of two reasons why you might want to have such a feature. 1. To help users who don't know how to use the feature their browser has built in. ... but if they don't know how to add them, then they probably don't know how to go back to them. 2. To cover up a Oh, you have to love this website, please add it to your bookmarks, pretty please message with something resembling something useful. ... which is just tacky. Are there any other reasons? -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] add to favorites?
Oh, brother, Dennis.you're implying that the use of the word favorites is a conspiracy? And it really doesn't matter who develops a function and for what reason.it's up to the developers and designers to use or not use a function, depending on their target audience. Every business has to differentiate itself in the marketplace, including IE. By choosing to call bookmarks, favorites, they sought a way to become more user-friendly.and succeeded in my view. Calling a site on of my favorites makes a lot more sense than calling it one of my bookmarks. And, I don't recall ever mentioning putting anything favorites link on a web page. I could use that on a Firefox browser or any other.the terms used don't matter.it's still the same type functionality. And what does pedigree matter?!? Do you only ever use functionality that has an appropriate pedigree? And, I'll guarantee you that as the use of RSS becomes more and more common, the terms by which it is referred will change, as well. It's still just a technological tool, just like a bookmark or favorite. You sound more like the company man, with remarks like the actual industry term is bookmark. Who cares what the *industry* calls it. In the world of business, it's not standardization that causes success, it differentiation with superior products or marketing.either way it spells success. And for those of you with legal requirements to use or avoid certain features.great! Use them as you will! But don't criticize others who take a more practical approach and aren't enslaved by the legal requirements which chain you down. You just don't realize it, but you're enslaved more by your company than I will *ever* be. Rick From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Dennis Lapcewich Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:08 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites? While the concept may appear sound at first glance, it's based on a false, misleading and dishonest premise. The simple process of adding a favorites link on a web page is a proprietary function attributed to a single browser designed and developed by its manufacturer solely as marketing mechanism for said company. While on its face this may appear as a user benefit, the actual benefit is just for that single browser and its creator. Web developers sought to develop similar code so that the function would work in other browsers such as Firefox, Safari, Opera, etc., with no appreciable success. The mere name favorites should have been the clue since that term is also proprietary to that single browser. The actual industry term is bookmark. On the other hand, RSS feeds and links, Subscribe to my RSS feed .. is an industry term using code accessible to all browsers. While created by a proprietary development group, its growth and development was more of an open standards approach. It eventually became an industry standard and it works in all browsers. Comparing favorites to RSS is unfair. It is comparing fish to bicycles, in more ways than one. The former smells in a relatively short period of time (and may contain chemicals not conducive to good health) while the latter will actually take you somewhere that you may choose to go, and you will feel better, too. Perhaps the analogy also applies to each function's pedigree as well. Standards are about equity of access. While some may be inclined to include a favorites link on a web page as a method to retain customers, bear in mind the function requires the user to support a proprietary process as well. Still, some may not care. However, for those of us with legal requirements to provide equity of access regardless of the method, use of a favorites link is an implied endorsement of a particular tool from a particular manufacturer, and that is a big no no. It is a denial of access to others who do not live in a company town, who do not live in a company house, who do not buy from the company store and who do not respond to every query with, Yes, Sir! May I have another, Sir! Dennis Lapcewich US Forest Service Webmaster Pacific Northwest Region - Vancouver, WA 360-891-5024 - Voice | 360-891-5045 - Fax dlapcew...@fs.fed.us People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it. -- George Bernard Shaw Rick Faircloth r...@whitestonemedia.com Sent by: li...@webstandardsgroup.org 03/25/2009 02:48 PM Please respond to wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To wsg@webstandardsgroup.org cc Subject RE: [WSG] add to favorites? Spend a little time on Google searching internet marketing call to action bookmark this page and you'll get a ton of info on the subject and you'll see many other examples that are similar to bookmarking, such as Subscribe to my RSS feed... even though there is a button right on the page already. These types of call-to-action
RE: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)
First off, no, it's not possible. The technology doesn't exist today, or we'd all have self-driving cars already. It is possible...there's just not sufficient will and money to make it a widespread reality. But that's another topic for another day... Anyway...the first time you are forced to compromise your work in a way that even itches a little, I want you to walk out and leave that pay check behind right there. Continue that walk and wait until you get hungry enough and some of those vaunted principles will be tossed aside like so much waste. Like you said, accessibility is *generally* a low-cost proposition. But, in many cases, complete accessibility can drive the cost of a site 500% higher, depending on functionality that has to be adapted. Blind people using websites and blind people driving. The cost is not the same, but the principle is...it's all about the level of accommodation that can be afforded or is appropriate. Believe me when I say that I'm happy when as many people as possible can be accommodated. I just don't get bent out of shape because some people don't care to accommodate others. Rick -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Matt Morgan-May Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 6:50 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?) On 3/25/09 12:12 PM, Rick Faircloth r...@whitestonemedia.com wrote: The correct design (and web standards that are adhered to or not) is that design for which the client is paying. Sorry, but that just reads to me like a way to excuse slipshod work. It is one thing to figure out any old way to collect the check, and quite another to think out all the angles and produce something that reaches the largest possible audience. I think the latter is far more professional, and all of the people I now work with, and all the ones I think of as successful in web design/dev, sweat those details. I've personally refused jobs before based on the knowledge that accessibility was being left out. So I know it can be done. Whether others would do the same is a question of their own judgment, not their professionalism. A standard could be imposed on all concerned that would make driving accessible to the blind...it certainly is technically possible...however, the cost is simply too high to make that a reality. First off, no, it's not possible. The technology doesn't exist today, or we'd all have self-driving cars already. Though what this has to do with pragmatic accessibility for web pages, which is generally a low-cost proposition for most of what's out there, is beyond me. Making content more accessible is not a boil-the-ocean strategy. Most of the basics for web accessibility take little work, and are easy to integrate into the average dev's everyday tasks. The only time it can be really costly is when it's been ignored the whole time the work was being done. Likewise (...in that they are both referenced sequentially in one email...) site owners may be under time and monetary restraints that prohibit making their websites accessible to all. Or they may just choose not to...again, it's the boss's choice, not the designer's. So, let me boil this down: web accessibility is like blind people driving. Wow. I think the only thing they may have in common is your willingness to contemplate them as an implementer. Which is fine, in and of itself. I'm not the boss of you. But if you're trying to equate the task of following a few best practices with reinventing the world's transportation infrastructure, well, good luck with that. - m *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] add to favorites?
There's where the difference is.users are *allowed* to come to sites that I build as a benefit to them. I don't know of a single user who ever visited a site (other than somebody's mother) for the benefit of the site's owner or developer. People don't visit newegg.com, Microsoft,com, or apple.com or any other site for the benefit of those companies.they go because it benefits them.and they are happy for the privilege of visiting those sites with the browser that they are allowed to use by Microsoft, Apple, Opera, et al. It never has been and never will be their browser. You have an unusual perspective on reality, Andrew. Rick From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Maben Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:37 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites? Do you imagine that a condescending, not to say insulting, tone adds weight to your arguments? If so, I'm sorry to disabuse you, but it just makes a weak point weaker. To address your argument, you appear (as does OP) to be confused as to the context of user benefit, call to action. I find it useful to remember that the common conception of visitors coming to your site has it backwards - they are extending you the courtesy of allowing your site to visit their browser. As such it is probably better, and certainly more polite, to restrict the scope of one's calls to action to the site, and leave decisions about the browser environment to the user. As for your second paragraph, apart from affording you the opportunity to offer a completely gratuitous insult, and while broadly true it is entirely irrelevant to the question at hand. Respectfully. Andrew http://www.andrewmaben.net and...@andrewmaben.com In a well designed user interface, the user should not need instructions. On Mar 25, 2009, at 8:09 PM, Nathan de Vries wrote: On 26/03/2009, at 10:07 AM, Dennis Lapcewich wrote: The simple process of adding a favorites link on a web page is a proprietary function attributed to a single browser designed and developed by its manufacturer solely as marketing mechanism for said company. While on its face this may appear as a user benefit, the actual benefit is just for that single browser and its creator. Bookmarking or adding a site to your favorites is not a user benefit? You've got to be kidding me. While some may be inclined to include a favorites link on a web page as a method to retain customers, bear in mind the function requires the user to support a proprietary process as well. Have you been living in a cave? With progressive enhancement, it's possible to improve the user experience of some without negatively affecting others. Not only that, but the competition pressures vendors in positive ways, more often than not leading to standardisation. If vendors sat around holding hands trying to reach consensus before releasing features in their browsers, innovation would halt altogether. Nathan de Vries *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] add to favorites? - ADMIN - KEEP IT POLITE PLEASE
huggroup/hug Sorry that tag isn't to standard... ;o) Rick -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Russ Weakley Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:58 PM To: Web Standards Group Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites? - ADMIN - KEEP IT POLITE PLEASE ADMIN This thread has deteriorated into slanging match. Any more and the thread will be closed. Keep the conversation constructive, helpful, considerate... Like a giant virtual group hug :0 Thanks Russ List admin and group hug evangelist *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)
Wow...10 years from now...as fast as change occurs these days, who knows what things will be like then! Rick -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of nedlud Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:58 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?) As I understand this thread, it is not about whether current standards are right or wrong, but how did we end up with these standards in the first place? The current standards did not just spring into existence, fully formed, out of the brow of some greek god. The standards evolved as peoples understanding of the web evolved. And the web itself was evolving at the same time, just as it continues to do. Just as the standards will continue to evolve. I'm certainly not saying that I disagree with current web standards, just that it would be foolish to think that they are *definitive*. As professionals, it is our responsibility to be reflective practitioners: to question the status quo and make sure it's really working. We can't do that without asking questions, or without listening to people who ask questions. The web is still an incredibly young medium and anyone who imagines that the standards we have today will apply to the web of tomorrow (I'm thinking of about a 10 year away tomorrow) would be naive. L. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] add to favorites?
hug group include template=Ewen.Hill /hug :o) From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of ewen.h...@dhs.vic.gov.au Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:07 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites? Any more and the thread will be closed. Please!!! Regards, Ewen Hill , Project Manager, Web Communications Unit Department of Human Services, Level 16, 50 Lonsdale Street Melbourne Victoria 3000 _ This email contains confidential information intended only for the person named above and may be subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying or use of this information is prohibited. The Department provides no guarantee that this communication is free of virus or that it has not been intercepted or interfered with. If you have received this email in error or have any other concerns regarding its transmission, please notify postmas...@dhs.vic.gov.au _ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?)
Cool! They'll have implants and better vision than organically-sighted people! -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 9:40 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: Who's responsible (was Re: [WSG] add to favorites?) Rick Faircloth wrote: Wow...10 years from now...as fast as change occurs these days, who knows what things will be like then! Blind people flying around with jetpacks ;) P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] RE: [BULK] WSG Digest
I thought the post was brief, informative and to the point. If everyone on this list with a commercial or open source product or service is prevented from speaking about it at all, we'd lose a lot of content. I don't think Sigurd's posts are over the top, any more than the numerous Dreamweaver, Joomla, Drupal or insert_CMS_name_here posts, and I do think you're over-reacting just a tad. Agreed...it's good to know about new products. It takes one second to delete the product. I'll be everyone wastes significantly more time than that every day... Rick -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Mark Harris Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 5:52 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] RE: [BULK] WSG Digest Glen Wallis wrote: Am I the only person on this list who is sick of the constant and blatant advertising for this Content Management System? Don't we have rules against this? If so, they are not being enforced. I thought the post was brief, informative and to the point. If everyone on this list with a commercial or open source product or service is prevented from speaking about it at all, we'd lose a lot of content. I don't think Sigurd's posts are over the top, any more than the numerous Dreamweaver, Joomla, Drupal or insert_CMS_name_here posts, and I do think you're over-reacting just a tad. Cheers ~mark *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.13/2001 - Release Date: 03/15/09 14:07:00 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Browser Backwards Compatibility -- How far back?
I think you're perspective is correct, Christian. I don't even test in browsers that are two generations removed from the current release. Clients just have to update their browsers. However, if a client insists on supporting IE 5 with IE 7 out, yes, it will cost them extra. Rick -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Christian Montoya Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2009 4:59 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Browser Backwards Compatibility -- How far back? On Sat, Mar 14, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Brett Patterson inspiron.patters...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, I was just reading from a book that talked about some code that would not work in Internet Explorer 3.0, but would in Internet Explorer 4.0 and later, and Netscape Navigator 3.0 and later. This brought up a question that I could not find direct and consistent answers while searching the Internet...so, how far back would it be acceptable to design for, when it comes to backwards browser compatibility? I have been told from some sites, that Internet Explorer 5.0/later and Netscape Navigator 4.0/later, as well as Firefox 1.5/later and Opera 6.0/later. Is this correct? Yahoo! has a good chart for browser support here: http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/articles/gbs/ This is not so much which browsers they support, but more which they test against and *guarantee* support for. So a Yahoo! site mike also work with IE 5.0, but they won't lose sleep if it doesn't. I think it's safe to say that if your client wants to guarantee support for an older browser not in this chart, then you should charge extra. -- -- Christian Montoya mappdev.com :: christianmontoya.net *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.278 / Virus Database: 270.11.12/1998 - Release Date: 03/14/09 06:54:00 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Re: Users who deliberately disable JavaScript
According to statistics supplied by w3schools.com, as of Jan 08 approximately 95% of users had JS enabled. Check out http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp and look towards the middle of the page for the stats. Rick -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Simon Pascal Klein Sent: Monday, January 26, 2009 10:59 PM To: Jessica Enders Cc: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Re: Users who deliberately disable JavaScript Comments inline: On 27/01/2009, at 7:33 AM, Jessica Enders wrote: Hi Pascal In the JavaScript/Accessibility/form validation discussion you mention the growing number of users who purposefully disable JavaScript. I'm always curious just how many people this is. Do you, or does anyone else, have any statistics on this? Is there a reason you describe it as a growing number? Any information greatly appreciated. No, I dont have access to any statistics on the matter. I want to clarify that my comment does not address the growing number of new Internet users who most likely will have JavaScript turned on or the majority of users in a holistic sense. I dont think the users that disable JS are a majority but I definitely think they are on the rise as many security experts are recommending JS to be disabled by default. Whether or not JS-disabled users are a statistic worth noting should not be in question here. I think Anthony Ziebell puts it best: JavaScript should be implemented only to supplement / layer existing functionality. Your site should operate just fine without it There are always exceptions to this rule however you shouldnt let JavaScript dictate how you code. Kind regards. Pascal Cheers Jessica Enders Principal Formulate Information Design http://formulate.com.au Phone: (02) 6116 8765 Fax: (02) 8456 5916 PO Box 5108 Braddon ACT 2612 On 19/01/2009, at 11:14 PM, Simon Pascal Klein wrote: If there were further communication between the user and server between submission of the form that would entail a page reload then a screen user shouldnt have an issue, whereas if JavaScript would run in the background and inject errors or suggestions as it thinks the user makes them (e.g. password complexity recommendations, username not available messages) numerous accessibility issues arise. The only solution that came to mind was having a generic message (such as please fill out all marked (*) fields or the like) that could be hidden using CSS and through JavaScript unhidden when an error appears (though it could only be a generic error). As dandy as these automatic feedback and error messages are through JavaScript maybe a full submission and subsequent page reload is bestafter all its impossible to tell those users using an accessibility aid like a screen reader from those who do not, and hey, the growing number of users who purposefully disable JavaScript wont see the glitzy JavaScript injected errors anyway. Just my 0.2¢. On 19/01/2009, at 5:52 PM, Rimantas Liubertas wrote: Isn't 'aria-required' a non-standard attribute? Sadly, yes. But there is some hope: it is possible that ARIA will be accepted in HTML5 and there is an initiative to provide validation for (X)HTML+ARIA: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008Sep/0381.html Validator.nu already has experimental support for HTML5+ARIA, and I believe (did not check) http://qa-dev.w3.org/wmvs/HEAD/ provides the same for document type HTML5. There is also a possibility to add ARIA attributes with Javascript. All the options are controversial, but that's how it is for now :( Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** --- Simon Pascal Klein Concept designer (w) http://klepas.org (e) kle...@klepas.org *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** --- Simon Pascal Klein Graphic Web Designer Web: http://klepas.org E-mai: kle...@klepas.org Twitter: @klepas; http://twitter.com/klepas Kaffee und Kuchen. *** List Guidelines:
RE: [WSG] Examples of great high-school websites?
ROFLOL! -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of designer Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 4:38 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Examples of great high-school websites? Visitors with images switched off wont see what the main nav links are and those with javascript off wont be able to use them! Furthermore, those with the computers switched off won't see anything at all . . . Bob *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Examples of great high-school websites?
What did you find to be so bad about the site, Stuart? -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 2:11 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Examples of great high-school websites? Perhaps the students should code the site - they couldn't do much worse! On Fri, January 16, 2009 7:00 pm, Fred Ballard wrote: Take a look at Sullivan High School's http://www.sullivanhs.org/. As you can see in the homepage's lower right corner it's from the Chicago Public Schools, http://www.cps.k12.il.us/, with a company, Educational Networks, http://www.educationalnetworks.net/, behind it. Is it too slick? I'm of two minds. It's great that it's a good-looking site, but it might be nice to let the students be the designers. I don't actually know what the students think about it, on the other hand. Fred On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 8:29 PM, David Lane d...@egressive.com wrote: Oops - should've been Disclosure rather than Disclaimer :) On Fri, 2009-01-16 at 15:21 +1300, David Lane wrote: Disclaimer: I've had occasional association with the work being done at Hagley, and have been a guest speaker to the computing students on a couple occasions :) -- David Lane = Egressive Ltd = d...@egressive.com = m:+64 21 229 8147 p:+64 3 963 3733 = Linux: it just tastes better = nosoftwarepatents http://egressive.com we only use open standards: http://w3.org Effusion Group Founding Member === http://effusiongroup.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Examples of great high-school websites?
It's a visually stimulating site...well designed. The coherency of the site is beyond the creative ability of most students. Besides the lack of content in many areas, which violates the cardinal rule of websites - good content - the site looks good and performs very well. Now, mind you, I didn't test it for accessibility, which I know from reading the threads on this site, that this group would tar-and-feather it for failing in even one way. Rick -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Sandy @ Mega Star Media INC Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 3:18 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Examples of great high-school websites? I think the design is nice and interesting. Using video and the placement are well done. Sandy -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Rick Faircloth Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 12:03 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Examples of great high-school websites? What did you find to be so bad about the site, Stuart? -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 2:11 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Examples of great high-school websites? Perhaps the students should code the site - they couldn't do much worse! On Fri, January 16, 2009 7:00 pm, Fred Ballard wrote: Take a look at Sullivan High School's http://www.sullivanhs.org/. As you can see in the homepage's lower right corner it's from the Chicago Public Schools, http://www.cps.k12.il.us/, with a company, Educational Networks, http://www.educationalnetworks.net/, behind it. Is it too slick? I'm of two minds. It's great that it's a good-looking site, but it might be nice to let the students be the designers. I don't actually know what the students think about it, on the other hand. Fred On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 8:29 PM, David Lane d...@egressive.com wrote: Oops - should've been Disclosure rather than Disclaimer :) On Fri, 2009-01-16 at 15:21 +1300, David Lane wrote: Disclaimer: I've had occasional association with the work being done at Hagley, and have been a guest speaker to the computing students on a couple occasions :) -- David Lane = Egressive Ltd = d...@egressive.com = m:+64 21 229 8147 p:+64 3 963 3733 = Linux: it just tastes better = nosoftwarepatents http://egressive.com we only use open standards: http://w3.org Effusion Group Founding Member === http://effusiongroup.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT
Agreed! -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Matt Morgan-May Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 2:50 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: # Re: [WSG] Beta Testers Needed for BCAT Hi, Excuse me for jumping in here, especially (in this case) as a Flash partisan. But I fail to see how this kind of project can be anything other than a good thing overall. What I don't understand is why people are instantly critical of projects that are actually attempting to increase access to new technology. I've heard a constant drumbeat of don't use Flash: it's inaccessible in the years I've been involved in the field. But if we don't have people pushing that envelope, doesn't that make that statement self-fulfilling prophecy? There are lots of us out there working on improving the accessibility of both existing and future content authored in Flash. There are many arguments to be made for HTML -- I made loads of them while working for W3C, all of which I would stand by today -- but it is not all things to all people. The fact is that many educators have found that they can use Flash to teach their students effectively. I'm not an educator by profession, but my wife is, and she prefers Flash over HTML/CSS/JS to develop her courseware. If you were to tell her she's wrong, especially before seeing what kind of work she does, I think you'd probably find yourself dodging a couple shelves' worth of education texts. Telling a professional their tools are wrong is not the most endearing of approaches. In my opinion, the best one can do is to learn what they're doing, and offer ways to make that output more efficient, more inclusive, and easier to produce. Teachers aren't usually web developers, and we shouldn't want them to be. So I'm all for companies taking on the technical problems so teachers can be teachers, and so on. Thanks, M Accessibility Engineer, Adobe Christie Mason said: Exactly right. I've sadly watched Flash take over eLearning and still haven't figured out the attraction, except that it offers the control of PPT while appearing to be rich.There's only a very few types of web sites that still use Flash for delivering primary content - media sites, those that focus more on look at me instead of being a resource to their site guests, and eLearning. Since, supposedly, eLearning is about offering web based resources for learning it just doesn't make sense to me that it has ignored all the ways the web has supported, continues to support, learning w/o using Flash. Flash on the web is like cooking with garlic. A little adds depth, a lot is inedible. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
RE: [WSG] Copycat site
Are you a moderator for this list, Joe? Sometimes, moderators know it's best just to let a comment go, especially if it seems short-lived, rather than comment on it as you and start up a fire storm. It was the weekend, and it was just a comment about copyright. It does help that a good moderator know *when* to moderate and with what *tone*. And yes, the slap-on-the-wrist could have been much gentler in tone. Rick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joseph Taylor Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 8:48 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Copycat site Everyone (newbies to the list especially): Just a reminder about the purpose of this list and some of the things that happen on here you should be aware of: 1. This list's purpose is discussing items related to web standards. Sometimes the lines of what fits here are blurred and thats ok. I've been on the list for 2 years now (I think) and I've seen many, many topics come and go that range from appropriate to completely inappropriate. 2. Occasionally off-topic discussions go so far that the admins have to come in and give everyone a knock it off!. It happens. Sometimes new members get upset when scolded for such things. Its no big deal. Many of the members on this list are extremely knowledgeable and have been on this list for a long time and are frequent contributors and help A LOT of newbies. 3. These same people have seen many many newbies come and go, many with the same OT discussions they want to throw out at everyone - like in this instance copycat sites. That topic does not belong here. Plain and simple. 4. Grandma used to say, You'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. In this case, the veteren member could not have put the OT reminder more nicely. In fact in 2 years its the most clear and pleasant way I may have seen, yet... 5. Then another global round of thousands if emails need to get generated so the other member can complain in the manner they were addressed. Then this email(there will be a bunch more too) 6. My point? This isn't Myspace. Leave the snippy remarks at the hair salon where they belong. This is supposed to be a community of clever minds and intelligent discussions - regarding web standards. Sorry - I just couldn't help myself from writing this post. I was once the snippy newbie to who yelled at members everytime I was mildly insultedit happens but hopefully we can rise above it. Joseph R. B. Taylor /Designer / Developer/ -- Sites by Joe, LLC /Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design/ Phone: (609) 335-3076 Fax: (866) 301-8045 Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes Adam, you're right - I will remember that for future posts... Maybe you can remember your social graces when replying. Quoting Adam Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED]: ...and this is related to web standards how? I don't mind these posts - but please mark them [OT] - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 10:57 AM Subject: [WSG] Copycat site This is the first time I've come across such an occurence naturally in the online world. I'm sure it happens all the time - this one seems just blatant to the point of having the same tabs in the navigation www.foryoung.com COPY OF www.webdesignerwall.com ___ Christian Fagan Fagan Design fagandesign.com.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** No virus found in this incoming
RE: [WSG] Copycat site
I don't think so...if you look through the webdesignerwall.com site, you'll see that the author has posted tutorials about how to create just such a menu. If anything, the designer of foryoung.com has paid a compliment to the author of webdesignerwall. by using the tutorial... Rick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 8:58 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Copycat site This is the first time I've come across such an occurence naturally in the online world. I'm sure it happens all the time - this one seems just blatant to the point of having the same tabs in the navigation www.foryoung.com COPY OF www.webdesignerwall.com ___ Christian Fagan Fagan Design fagandesign.com.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Question about accessibility
Darren... I find your comment, I would most certainly not allow the use of an image map, interesting. What would you do, as is Jason's situation, if your client demands it? You can always turn down the work, but would you simply because a client wants to do something that you don't like? Rick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 7:39 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility Hi Jason, I would most certainly not allow the use of an image map. They are only useful for defining polygon or circular areas on maps (or similar) as links. They are not good for a sites primary navigation. For navigation that is consisting of an image I would create an unordered list: ul id=nav li class=img1link1/li li class=img2link1/li li class=img3link1/li /ul Set the main img background on ul#nav to go behind all the links then set the individual link graphics on each list item anchor - li.img? a Make the anchors display:block and you can then define height and width of the link. Then when images are turned off you are still left with a fully accessible menu. Darren Lovelock Munkyonline.co.uk Quoting Jason Pruim [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Good Morning everyone! I have a client that wants me to write his navigation mostly as a picture and then use image maps to get to the actual links. I am wondering, how would I go about convincing my client that this isn't the best way to do it? I personally think that some nice text links, styled properly with CSS would look just as good if not better then image maps. Oh, and to put it into context, it's a picture rating site so I don't know that Blind users are going to be too much of a concern for him since they can't see what the main part of the site is for. Any info I could get about this would be wonderful! Thanks everyone! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Question about accessibility
You're right about a client like that being a pain in the rear. I had a client who wanted customers to contact them via email, but didn't want to use a contact form and didn't want them to just use a link to email from the website. He was dead-set against forms even though they were the answer. He was so hard to work with, I eventually cut him loose. (Glad I got 50% of the cost up front! :o) I imagine this image-map client was just after a certain look and had been told by someone that an image map was the answer and wasn't open to other solutions which are better and provide the same results. Rick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 9:45 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Question about accessibility Hi Rick, If any client were to tell me how to code their website I would probably tell them to go elsewhere. The client is more than likely going to be a pain throughout the project and then also when making payment. Obviously this is within reason - design aspects - of course they decide. When it comes to the coding, the client most certainly does not know best! If they want it to be of a high quality and well optimised then I will make it using the best of my abilities. There's no reason that they should specify how it is coded, unless they're a developer and they need it formatted in a specific way. This must not be a normal customer anyway if they know about image maps. I'm interested to know why they requested it in the first place.. Quoting Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Darren... I find your comment, I would most certainly not allow the use of an image map, interesting. What would you do, as is Jason's situation, if your client demands it? You can always turn down the work, but would you simply because a client wants to do something that you don't like? Rick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 7:39 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Question about accessibility Hi Jason, I would most certainly not allow the use of an image map. They are only useful for defining polygon or circular areas on maps (or similar) as links. They are not good for a sites primary navigation. For navigation that is consisting of an image I would create an unordered list: ul id=nav li class=img1link1/li li class=img2link1/li li class=img3link1/li /ul Set the main img background on ul#nav to go behind all the links then set the individual link graphics on each list item anchor - li.img? a Make the anchors display:block and you can then define height and width of the link. Then when images are turned off you are still left with a fully accessible menu. Darren Lovelock Munkyonline.co.uk Quoting Jason Pruim [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Good Morning everyone! I have a client that wants me to write his navigation mostly as a picture and then use image maps to get to the actual links. I am wondering, how would I go about convincing my client that this isn't the best way to do it? I personally think that some nice text links, styled properly with CSS would look just as good if not better then image maps. Oh, and to put it into context, it's a picture rating site so I don't know that Blind users are going to be too much of a concern for him since they can't see what the main part of the site is for. Any info I could get about this would be wonderful! Thanks everyone! *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.9/1637 - Release Date: 8/27/2008 7:01 AM *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Appropriate postings
I understand your concern, Stuart. The list shouldn't become a first-responder to code someone's problem. But we should be aware, also, that usually, someone who posts even what seems to be a rudimentary problem has actually tried to solve it on their own and is just missing the solution. Those new to CSS and other web standards tools will often be reluctant to post their own attempts to code a solution and will just ask for input on a solution. It's a fine line to walk, but we have to be careful not to read behind the post and assume that someone is just asking others to do their work for them. Rick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 4:09 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Appropriate postings I have no problem with elementary questions about Web standards. But there are perhaps too many posts about how to write basic HTML mark-up and elementary CSS. This is especially true when the 'poster' has apparently not even tried to validate it (and, therefore, not seriously tried to solve the problem themselves). Should we not, at least, expect a list contributor to know the basics of HTML and CSS, for example. At the other end of the scale, there are sometimes posts which seem to be more about how to 'work around' Web standards to achieve a particular design rather than DESIGN to Web Standards in the first place (usually a knock-on effect due to graphic designers pretending to be Web designers). On Tue, August 5, 2008 10:00 pm, Jody Tate wrote: I'm a lurker on the list, but primarily because the list, so far, has seemed like a place where people come for help solving specific, remedial problems with long-standing (in internet-time) solutions well-documented on the internet and in books. On 8/5/08 11:10 AM, Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And I would like to know what a list on any subject is for if not for helping people understand the most basic principles and application of a give practice. A list on any topic must embrace all level of participants, beginners and advanced, alike. If we think of the list as a classroom, a teaching environment, then it's standard practice to have separate beginning, advanced, etc. classes. At the university level, for example (in the US), classes at the 100 level tackle different issues than classes at the 200, 300 and 400 level. A list on a topic isn't required to embrace all levels of expertise. I've participated in many mailings lists where some requests for basic help were considered off-topic. Requests for help when answers can be found by via searches or reading books were often seen as inappropriate. I'd advocate (at the risk of sounding snobby), as some have suggested, for different lists--one to accommodate beginners and another to accommodate other developers interested, not in help with standards, but in the standards themselves. Anyone who thinks a list about web standards should not first have as its mission to teach and clarify the basics of the tools of standardization, such as CSS, is mistaken. Unless expressly stated, a list must cater to the lowest common denominator of its participants, not the highest. By doing so, those on the bottom are lifted up, instead of always being pushed down and kept in the dark. To think a list about web standards doesn't need to have teaching as its first mission is not mistaken, it's considering that a different goal or multiple goals might be acceptable. Web standards are not new, though they may be new to some list users. Teaching can be a function, but if helping others with the basics is its sole function, as it's becoming here, it neglects another portion of the list's members, those who have been using web standards since their inception and hope to have extended discussions about, for example, XHTML vs. HTML5, CSS3, current and upcoming browser implementation of standards, emerging standards and so on. -jody -- Jody Tate http://staff.washington.edu/jtate/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.12/1594 - Release Date: 8/5/2008 9:49 PM
RE: [WSG] Appropriate postings
Following your construction analogy, people new to standards might know how to use a nail hammer, but not realize that what's called for in a situation is a dry-wall hammer. That's where some guidance even on the tools end is needed. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Adam Martin Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 4:38 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Appropriate postings I totally agree which is why I arose the subject in the first place. A person interested in the building standards shouldn't expect the building standards group to tell them how to use a hammer. Same goes here. - Original Message - From: Stuart Foulstone [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 6:08 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Appropriate postings I have no problem with elementary questions about Web standards. But there are perhaps too many posts about how to write basic HTML mark-up and elementary CSS. This is especially true when the 'poster' has apparently not even tried to validate it (and, therefore, not seriously tried to solve the problem themselves). Should we not, at least, expect a list contributor to know the basics of HTML and CSS, for example. At the other end of the scale, there are sometimes posts which seem to be more about how to 'work around' Web standards to achieve a particular design rather than DESIGN to Web Standards in the first place (usually a knock-on effect due to graphic designers pretending to be Web designers). On Tue, August 5, 2008 10:00 pm, Jody Tate wrote: I'm a lurker on the list, but primarily because the list, so far, has seemed like a place where people come for help solving specific, remedial problems with long-standing (in internet-time) solutions well-documented on the internet and in books. On 8/5/08 11:10 AM, Rick Faircloth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And I would like to know what a list on any subject is for if not for helping people understand the most basic principles and application of a give practice. A list on any topic must embrace all level of participants, beginners and advanced, alike. If we think of the list as a classroom, a teaching environment, then it's standard practice to have separate beginning, advanced, etc. classes. At the university level, for example (in the US), classes at the 100 level tackle different issues than classes at the 200, 300 and 400 level. A list on a topic isn't required to embrace all levels of expertise. I've participated in many mailings lists where some requests for basic help were considered off-topic. Requests for help when answers can be found by via searches or reading books were often seen as inappropriate. I'd advocate (at the risk of sounding snobby), as some have suggested, for different lists--one to accommodate beginners and another to accommodate other developers interested, not in help with standards, but in the standards themselves. Anyone who thinks a list about web standards should not first have as its mission to teach and clarify the basics of the tools of standardization, such as CSS, is mistaken. Unless expressly stated, a list must cater to the lowest common denominator of its participants, not the highest. By doing so, those on the bottom are lifted up, instead of always being pushed down and kept in the dark. To think a list about web standards doesn't need to have teaching as its first mission is not mistaken, it's considering that a different goal or multiple goals might be acceptable. Web standards are not new, though they may be new to some list users. Teaching can be a function, but if helping others with the basics is its sole function, as it's becoming here, it neglects another portion of the list's members, those who have been using web standards since their inception and hope to have extended discussions about, for example, XHTML vs. HTML5, CSS3, current and upcoming browser implementation of standards, emerging standards and so on. -jody -- Jody Tate http://staff.washington.edu/jtate/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http
RE: [WSG] Appropriate postings
Sorry to come across blunt - but I don't think the web standards group is meant to be a teacher of css. Great that people on here are wanting to learn. But there are plenty of other places dedicated to these sort of things. And I would like to know what a list on any subject is for if not for helping people understand the most basic principles and application of a give practice. A list on any topic must embrace all level of participants, beginners and advanced, alike. If one cannot expect to participate in this list and learn CSS, then it needs to be made known that this is a list for advanced web standards gurus only...those who need to understand something basic need not post...you will only be belittled for your ignorance, not tutored and nurtured in your quest for coding to web standards. My personal opinion is that the moderators need to be more moderate in their enforcement of list standards. In other words, chill out a little and let this be a living, breathing community of participants who do think other thoughts they'd like to share or need help on topics that might not fit a tightly screwed definition of web standards, but that don't justify joining another list just to ask a question that is slightly oblique to the main list subject matter. Anyone who thinks a list about web standards should not first have as its mission to teach and clarify the basics of the tools of standardization, such as CSS, is mistaken. Unless expressly stated, a list must cater to the lowest common denominator of its participants, not the highest. By doing so, those on the bottom are lifted up, instead of always being pushed down and kept in the dark. And, yes, I agree with another poster, that there is a great need for a Standards Newbie list, where *all* questions are welcome, if this list won't suffice. Rick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Horowitz Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 1:16 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Appropriate postings I look at the list guidelines to see if I am appropriate http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm where it says the list is Provide web standards information and assistance to developers... The mail list covers any topic associated with web standards including: * Implementing Web Standards - eg: technologies such as HTML, XHTML, CSS, DOM, UAAG, RDF, XML, JavaScript and EcmaScript It seems my questions are about implementing Web Standards. I certainly agree with the earlier posters who suggested I make sure to validate before posting questions on what I do. That would have saved some dumb questions on my behalf. I do think we should probably add requiring validation before posting How To my sites broken questions to the list. I also do think that it is possible their are lurkers on my list learning web standards and just starting with tableless design who may benefit from my questions. Going back 20 years to college I remember feeling like an idiot being the only one to ask a question in class when I didn't understand something only to have a half a dozen people thank me for my question after class because they were too afraid to ask. So I do believe there are other who may learn from my questions. There may be a benefit to the group to have multiple mail lists for different aspects of Web Standards including a newbie list where people can seek help. I would also be open to having a standard part of a subject line like Dumb Newbie asking question :) to allow people who don't want to get involved with helping to more easily filter my mail. I can tell you it will probably be 6 months to a year before I can add much more to the list besides asking questions so you may just with to use your email filter to put my posts to your trash bin and take it out again this time next year. I know I am supposed to thank people off list for help but as long as it is part of a longer posting I will just add some thanks for your help. I do learn alot from this list both from my questions on the subject I just read. Michael Horowitz Your Computer Consultant http://yourcomputerconsultant.com 561-394-9079 Adam Martin wrote: Sorry to come across blunt - but I don't think the web standards group is meant to be a teacher of css. Great that people on here are wanting to learn. But there are plenty of other places dedicated to these sort of things. - Original Message - From: Michael Horowitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 2:16 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Positioning was Extra white line on the top of my list In playing I've found using the relative positioning working pretty good for me. Is it just a matter of personal preference what I use then? Thanks for the article I really haven't understood negative margins.
RE: [WSG] Please unsubscribe me
Check out the link at the bottom of this page... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stuart Sheridan Sent: Monday, June 30, 2008 9:30 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Please unsubscribe me Please unsubscribe me -Original Message- From: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 9:25 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: WSG Digest * WEB STANDARDS GROUP MAIL LIST DIGEST * From: Cook, Karen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 11:47:05 +1000 Subject: RE: WSG Digest Please unsubscribe me -Original Message- From: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 30 June 2008 9:22 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: WSG Digest * WEB STANDARDS GROUP MAIL LIST DIGEST * * From: Lynette Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 08:20:34 +0800 Subject: Re: [WSG] Scaling a background image Chris Pearce wrote: Hi, Has anyone been able to successfully scale a CSS background image to the current window size? I've done some research via Google and it appears this can't be done purely with CSS (at least not yet), maybe some JavaScript? Is this the sort of thing you mean: http://www.bluelightning.com.au/ The image reduces in size at smaller screen resolutions. Lyn WesternWeb Design Perth Western Australia * From: Matthew Holloway [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:56:29 +1200 Subject: Re: [WSG] Scaling a background image On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 12:12 PM, Chris Pearce [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Has anyone been able to successfully scale a CSS background image to the current window size? I've done some research via Google and it appears this can't be done purely with CSS (at least not yet), maybe some JavaScript? Here's a CSS and HTML way of doing it for those browsers that understand position:fixed, http://holloway.co.nz/mefi/fullscreenbackground2/ For those browsers that don't you'd need to emulate it with JavaScript... window.onscroll to move the #background down the page with the scroll position. ** Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** Sensis. Helping you find, buy and sell. www.sensis.com.au - www.yellow.com.au - www.whitepages.com.au - www.citysearch.com.au - www.whereis.com.au - www.tradingpost.com.au Sensis cares for the environment - think before you print. This email and any attachments are intended only for the use of the recipient and may be confidential and/or legally privileged. Sensis Pty Ltd disclaims liability for any errors, omissions, viruses, loss and/or damage arising from using, opening or transmitting this email. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, interfere with, disclose, copy or retain this email and you should notify the sender immediately by return email or by contacting Sensis Pty Ltd by telephone on [+61 3 8653 5000] * From: Sandra Vassallo [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:12:29 +1000 Subject: Re: [WSG] HTML 4.01 MAP element prevents links from displaying using a screen reader Hi, A good news story... The earlier problem of navigation links (using the html map element) not displaying in Firefox when accessed via a screen reader seems to have been resolved. The report to bugzilla was quickly actioned and is now finished - thanks to open source developers Marco Zehe, Alexander Surkov and Aaron Leventhal who have been working on a patch for the last 8 weeks. Currently, it is in the development releases of 3.1a1pre ... the next major update to Firefox is tentatively due in Q1/2009 and it is likely to be approved for full release as part of version 3.0.1 (all signs at this stage are promising, so fingers crossed) A log of the development activity is at https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=431615 Cheers, Sandra. Sandra Vassallo wrote: Hi, I recently come across a problem in Firefox with screen readers (Jaws and Window Eyes) when using the HTML 4.01 MAP element to group links, and thought it would be of interest to others on the list who may be using it as well. It also
