[Zen] Return to Emptiness: from nervous nellie

[Merle Lester]

 thank you M

i always feel nervous now since the new rules were enforced by the moderators 
as to what was appropriate and what what was not for zen forum...

i nearly thought maybe not to post...  feeling the "nervous nellie"

 i have had private responses as well in support..

so thank you for your support M. 

i would be interested in your feedback... 

merle



  
 The Book, The Withdrawal of Human Projection looks like one I would love to 
read and add to my library.
Amazon has 7 copies left, just wanted to stop by and tell you that this was one 
excellent Posting to the group.
 
M



On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 2:12 AM, Merle Lester  wrote:


>
>
>
>
>for suresh...merle
>>
>>Having trouble viewing this email? click here  
>>Return to Emptiness: free copy of The Withdrawal of Human Projection
>>COLLEGE INSTRUCTORS may receive a free copy for use in teaching and 
>>research.Simply respond to this email indicating you will request that your 
>>library order a copy. 
>> Pages:  118 pages
>>Publisher: 
>>  Library of Social Science
>>Author: 
>>  M. D. Faber
>>Date of Publication: 
>>  June 1, 2013
>>Paperback: 
>>  List Price $34.95 
>>  ISBN: 091504207X 
>>Hardcover: 
>>  List Price $39.95 
>>  ISBN: 0915042088
>> For information on ordering this book through Amazon, click here. 
>>
>>Because we believe The Withdrawal of Human Projection is an important 
>>book—and wish to assure that it achieves the widest possible circulation—we 
>>are offering a free copy to college instructors if you will simply ask your 
>>library to order a copy. Please respond to this email—write to 
>>oander...@libraryofsocialscience.com—providing your name and the name of your 
>>college or university. We will send you a free electronic copy of the entire 
>>book (identical to the physical copy, including the front & back cover). 
>>
>> Professor emeritus of English at the University of Victoria, M. D. Faber is 
>> a renowned authority on the psychology of religion and author of nine books, 
>> including Culture and Consciousness, The Psychological Roots of Religious 
>> Belief, and The Magic of Prayer: An Introduction to the Psychology of Faith.
>>  
>>We are immersed within culture 
>>like fish in the sea
>>We experience culture as if air that we breathe. Or one may say that human 
>>beings are like fish within water—embraced, encompassed and incorporated by 
>>“society.” In many post-modern theories, there is barely a concept of a self 
>>prior to or separate from the symbolic order. Some theorists contend that our 
>>psyche is constituted by nothing more or less than the “discourses that push 
>>and pull us.”
>>Scholars focus on the inescapable power of discourse, yet rail against the 
>>dominating, oppressive dimensions of society. The term “hegemony” conveys the 
>>idea of culture and its ideologies as an omnipresent—and potentially 
>>destructive—force.
>>But what is “culture?” Why is there such an intimate connection between our 
>>minds and society? In The Withdrawal of Human Projection, M. D. Faber departs 
>>from conventional approaches—providing a psychological analysis of our need 
>>or desire for culture. What motivates us to bind ourselves to the symbolic 
>>order?
>>How is it possible to separate 
>>from beloved objects?
>>Faber begins with the child’s attachment to mother and family. We experience 
>>a deep, profound tie to early love objects. Simultaneously, we are compelled 
>>to separate from these objects and move into reality—a place that does not 
>>contain the mother. How is it possible to achieve separation from that to 
>>which we are so deeply attached? This is the subject of Faber’s book.
>>Separation from our mother and families, Faber says, generates a “life-long 
>>mourning process,” triggering an endless “search for replacement, for someone 
>>or something to fill the gap.” The child deals with separation by choosing 
>>“transitional objects”—blankets, teddy bears, story books—that afford the 
>>magical or illusory belief that one is “staying with the caretaker at the 
>>same time he or she is moving away from her or giving her up.” We bind to 
>>objects that “symbolize and evoke the comforting presence of the mother.”
>>Our relationship to culture, according to Faber, derives from our 
>>relationship to transitional objects. Cultural objects are glorified, 
>>puffed-up transitional objects. We bind ourselves tightly to the cultural 
>>domain as part of a ceaseless struggle to come to terms with separation and 
>>loss; to solidify and stabilize the self.
>>Ambivalence
>>Faber hypothesizes that we are tied to the institutions of society out of the 
>>tie that binds us to parental figures within. Our struggle to establish “dual 
>>unity” binds us to the objects of our inner world, and hence to an 
>>overestimation or attachment to cultural objects that become “projective 
>>exemplifications of either acceptance or rejection; in other words, 
>>psychological symbols.”
>>At the same time that we s

Re: [Zen] Return to Emptiness: from nervous nellie

[Eccentrics.R.US]

I am brand new, but did read a rule that says to keep it Zen and that is
good enuf for me.

I have only seen 2 posts since I joined up, so have not been lucky enough
to see other
letters on any subjects.  I have been researching Pain and then saw this
book of Fabers where he
says separation from the mother, generates a “life-long mourning process,”
triggering an endless
“search for replacement, for someone or something to fill the gap.” and is
what I started my research
with a few years ago.  This is the first time I have heard of Faber or his
book, so my interest
is high as there is almost a sort of Synchronicity between his thoughts and
mine.

I can contact you off list if you like, I have copied and saved your
address for later
reference.

Thank you

M


On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 10:32 PM, Merle Lester wrote:

>
>
>
>  thank you M
>
> i always feel nervous now since the new rules were enforced by the
> moderators as to what was appropriate and what what was not for zen forum...
>
> i nearly thought maybe not to post...  feeling the "nervous nellie"
>
>  i have had private responses as well in support..
>
> so thank you for your support M.
>
> i would be interested in your feedback...
>
> merle
>
>
>  The Book, The Withdrawal of Human Projection looks like one I would love
> to read and add to my library.
> Amazon has 7 copies left, just wanted to stop by and tell you that this
> was one excellent Posting to the group.
>
> M
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 2:12 AM, Merle Lester wrote:
>
>
>
>
> for suresh...merle
>
>   Having trouble viewing this email? click 
> here
>  *Return to Emptiness: free copy of The Withdrawal of Human Projection
> *
> *COLLEGE INSTRUCTORS may receive a free copy for use in teaching and
> research.** Simply respond to this email indicating you will request that
> your library order a copy.*
>   *[image: Developmental Time, Cultural Space]*
> *Pages:  *118 pages*
> Publisher:
>   *Library of Social 
> Science
> *
> Author:
>   *M. D. Faber*
> Date of Publication:
>   *June 1, 2013*
> Paperback:
> *  List Price $34.95
>   ISBN: 091504207X
> *Hardcover:
> *  List Price $39.95
>   ISBN: 0915042088*
> *
>   *For information on ordering this book through Amazon, click 
> here.*
>   *Because we believe The Withdrawal of Human Projection is an important
> book—and wish to assure that it achieves the widest possible circulation—we
> are offering a free copy to college instructors if you will simply ask
> your library to order a copy. Please respond to this email—write to
> oander...@libraryofsocialscience.com—providing your name and the name of
> your college or university. We will send you a free electronic copy of
> the entire book (identical to the physical copy, including the front &
> back cover).*
>   *Professor emeritus of English at the University of Victoria, M. D.
> Faber is a renowned authority on the psychology of religion and author of
> nine books, including Culture and Consciousness, The Psychological Roots
> of Religious Belief, and The Magic of Prayer: An Introduction to the
> Psychology of Faith.**
> *
> *We are immersed within culture
> like fish in the sea*
> We experience culture as if air that we breathe. Or one may say that human
> beings are like fish within water—embraced, encompassed and incorporated by
> “society.” In many post-modern theories, there is barely a concept of a
> self prior to or separate from the symbolic order. Some theorists contend
> that our psyche is constituted by nothing more or less than the “discourses
> that push and pull us.”
> Scholars focus on the inescapable power of discourse, yet rail against the
> dominating, oppressive dimensions of society. The term “hegemony” conveys
> the idea of culture and its ideologies as an omnipresent—and potentially
> destructive—force.
> But what is “culture?” Why is there such an intimate connection between
> our minds and society? In *The Withdrawal of Human Projection, *M. D.
> Faber departs from conventional approaches—providing a psychological
> analysis of our *need or desire for culture. *What motivates us to bind
> ourselves to the symbolic order?
> *How is it possible to separate
> from beloved objects?*
> Faber begins with the child’s attachment to mother and family. We
> experience a deep, profound tie to early love objects. Simultaneously, we
> are compelled to separate from these objects and move into reality—a place
> that does not contain the mother. *How is it possible to achieve
> separation from that to which we are so deeply attached? *This is the
> subject of Faber’s book.
> Separation from our mother and famil

Re: [Zen] Return to Emptiness: from nervous nellie

[larry maher]

He might be right? But it's just one opinion based on another guy's (Freud)
opinion who based his opinion on another's opinion.


On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 12:16 AM, Eccentrics.R.US  wrote:

> **
>
>
> I am brand new, but did read a rule that says to keep it Zen and that is
> good enuf for me.
>
> I have only seen 2 posts since I joined up, so have not been lucky enough
> to see other
> letters on any subjects.  I have been researching Pain and then saw this
> book of Fabers where he
> says separation from the mother, generates a “life-long mourning process,”
> triggering an endless
> “search for replacement, for someone or something to fill the gap.” and is
> what I started my research
> with a few years ago.  This is the first time I have heard of Faber or his
> book, so my interest
> is high as there is almost a sort of Synchronicity between his thoughts
> and mine.
>
> I can contact you off list if you like, I have copied and saved your
> address for later
> reference.
>
> Thank you
>
> M
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 10:32 PM, Merle Lester wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>  thank you M
>>
>> i always feel nervous now since the new rules were enforced by the
>> moderators as to what was appropriate and what what was not for zen forum...
>>
>> i nearly thought maybe not to post...  feeling the "nervous nellie"
>>
>>  i have had private responses as well in support..
>>
>> so thank you for your support M.
>>
>> i would be interested in your feedback...
>>
>> merle
>>
>>
>>  The Book, The Withdrawal of Human Projection looks like one I would love
>> to read and add to my library.
>> Amazon has 7 copies left, just wanted to stop by and tell you that this
>> was one excellent Posting to the group.
>>
>> M
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 2:12 AM, Merle Lester wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> for suresh...merle
>>
>>   Having trouble viewing this email? click 
>> here
>>  *Return to Emptiness: free copy of The Withdrawal of Human
>> Projection*
>> *COLLEGE INSTRUCTORS may receive a free copy for use in teaching and
>> research.** Simply respond to this email indicating you will request
>> that your library order a copy.*
>>   *[image: Developmental Time, Cultural Space]*
>> *Pages:  *118 pages*
>> Publisher:
>>   *Library of Social 
>> Science
>> *
>> Author:
>>   *M. D. Faber*
>> Date of Publication:
>>   *June 1, 2013*
>> Paperback:
>> *  List Price $34.95
>>   ISBN: 091504207X
>> *Hardcover:
>> *  List Price $39.95
>>   ISBN: 0915042088*
>> *
>>   *For information on ordering this book through Amazon, click 
>> here.*
>>   *Because we believe The Withdrawal of Human Projection is an important
>> book—and wish to assure that it achieves the widest possible circulation—we
>> are offering a free copy to college instructors if you will simply ask
>> your library to order a copy. Please respond to this email—write to
>> oander...@libraryofsocialscience.com—providing your name and the name of
>> your college or university. We will send you a free electronic copy of
>> the entire book (identical to the physical copy, including the front &
>> back cover).*
>>   *Professor emeritus of English at the University of Victoria, M. D.
>> Faber is a renowned authority on the psychology of religion and author of
>> nine books, including Culture and Consciousness, The Psychological Roots
>> of Religious Belief, and The Magic of Prayer: An Introduction to the
>> Psychology of Faith.**
>> *
>> *We are immersed within culture
>> like fish in the sea*
>> We experience culture as if air that we breathe. Or one may say that
>> human beings are like fish within water—embraced, encompassed and
>> incorporated by “society.” In many post-modern theories, there is barely a
>> concept of a self prior to or separate from the symbolic order. Some
>> theorists contend that our psyche is constituted by nothing more or less
>> than the “discourses that push and pull us.”
>> Scholars focus on the inescapable power of discourse, yet rail against
>> the dominating, oppressive dimensions of society. The term “hegemony”
>> conveys the idea of culture and its ideologies as an omnipresent—and
>> potentially destructive—force.
>> But what is “culture?” Why is there such an intimate connection between
>> our minds and society? In *The Withdrawal of Human Projection, *M. D.
>> Faber departs from conventional approaches—providing a psychological
>> analysis of our *need or desire for culture. *What motivates us to bind
>> ourselves to the symbolic order?
>> *How is it possible to separate
>> from beloved objects?*
>> Faber begins with the child’s attachment to mother and family. We
>> experience a dee

Re: [Zen] Return to Emptiness: from nervous nellie

[Bill!]

Hal,

The technique of counting breathes as you've described below is how I was first 
taught to meditate (zazen) over 40 years ago and I use that technique to begin 
my meditation sessions to this day.

Along the way I was also introduced to other techniques which can accomplish 
the same thing such as bowing, chanting, walking meditation, work detail and of 
course koan study.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Eccentrics.R.US"  wrote:
>
> When i first started mindfulness meditation, which was quite a few years
> ago, i was advised to count
> my breaths, 1..2..3 ...and if a thought arose i was to start
> over.1..2..3thought1.23
> and over and over.  i learned that i was never more then a few breaths away
> from my thoughts and
> they would arise if i was counting or not.  i quickly became frustrated
> with my practice and gave up
> on that form of meditation.
> 
> Today i smile at myself.  i wanted to be so perfect and successful that i
> was willing to forego a meditation
> lesson that does work for many practitioners.  No matter if the success or
> perfection was fast and without
> lasting lessons, i wanted what i wanted and wanted it right now.
> 
> Today brings me forward to different meditations that have been a slow go
> and yet are quite helpful and
> healthy for me.  But my first try at meditation still brings a smile to my
> face and even a chuckle now and then...
> 
> M
> 
> 
> On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 2:08 PM, larry maher  wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > Yes, the ten thousand things. I did and do the same as you.
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 2:16 PM, Eccentrics.R.US <
> > HALatMOTHERSHIP@...> wrote:
> >
> >> **
> >>
> >>
> >> yes, that is true that most opinions, theories and books are written on
> >> yesterdays thoughts, yesterdays views and yesterdays news.
> >> But as I age my interests change and that which is old becomes new to me
> >> because then I am interested in it
> >> I was reading that people have about 70,000 thoughts a day go through
> >> their minds, and before I read that I was hard
> >> on myself during meditation as a few of mine would stick around and
> >> nearly drive me crazy with their insistence.  And then when I read the
> >> theory of 70 thousand, I didn't feel bad about a few of my intrusive, stuck
> >> in the groove thoughts.
> >>
> >>
> >> M
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 11:50 AM, larry maher wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> He might be right? But it's just one opinion based on another guy's
> >>> (Freud) opinion who based his opinion on another's opinion.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 12:16 AM, Eccentrics.R.US <
> >>> HALatMOTHERSHIP@...> wrote:
> >>>
>  **
> 
> 
>  I am brand new, but did read a rule that says to keep it Zen and that
>  is good enuf for me.
> 
>  I have only seen 2 posts since I joined up, so have not been lucky
>  enough to see other
>  letters on any subjects.  I have been researching Pain and then saw
>  this book of Fabers where he
>  says separation from the mother, generates a "life-long mourning
>  process," triggering an endless
>  "search for replacement, for someone or something to fill the gap." and
>  is what I started my research
>  with a few years ago.  This is the first time I have heard of Faber or
>  his book, so my interest
>  is high as there is almost a sort of Synchronicity between his
>  thoughts and mine.
> 
>  I can contact you off list if you like, I have copied and saved your
>  address for later
>  reference.
> 
>  Thank you
> 
>  M
> 
> 
>  On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 10:32 PM, Merle Lester wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> >
> >  thank you M
> >
> > i always feel nervous now since the new rules were enforced by the
> > moderators as to what was appropriate and what what was not for zen 
> > forum...
> >
> > i nearly thought maybe not to post...  feeling the "nervous nellie"
> >
> >  i have had private responses as well in support..
> >
> > so thank you for your support M.
> >
> > i would be interested in your feedback...
> >
> > merle
> >
> >
> >  The Book, The Withdrawal of Human Projection looks like one I would
> > love to read and add to my library.
> > Amazon has 7 copies left, just wanted to stop by and tell you that
> > this was one excellent Posting to the group.
> >
> > M
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 2:12 AM, Merle Lester wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > for suresh...merle
> >
> >   Having trouble viewing this email? click 
> > here
> >  *Return to Emptiness: free copy of The Withdrawal of Human
> > Projection*
> > *COLLEGE INSTRUCTORS may receive a free co

Re: [Zen] Return to Emptiness: from nervous nellie

[uerusuboyo]

Hal, Bill!,I guess counting the breath is 'bread and butter' for most 
people starting out (and also for seasoned meditators). I have found, however, 
that the meditation on the breath as taught in the sutras says nothing 
whatsoever about counting our breaths. Instead, we just focus on the breath 
entering and leaving the nostrils. This works for me much better than counting 
because counting can soon become a mantra taking our focus away from the body. 
Actual bodily sensations are our doorway into reality rather than concepts 
(such as numbers).MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

Re: [Zen] Return to Emptiness: from nervous nellie

[Bill!]

Mike,

Counting the breaths is just the initial part of the teaching technique, at 
least as it was taught to me.  The full techniques is:
1.  Counting the breath:
   1.1 - 1 on 1xhale, 2 on inhale, etc..., to 10 and then repeat
   1.2 - 1 on exhale, 2 on next exhale, etc..., to 10 and then repeat
2.  Following the breath:
   2.1 - No counting, just following exhale and inhale
   2.2 - No counting, just following breath, exhale only
3. Drop the following - shikantaza - Just THIS!

...Bill!



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote:
>
> Hal, Bill!,I guess counting the breath is 'bread and butter' for 
> most people starting out (and also for seasoned meditators). I have found, 
> however, that the meditation on the breath as taught in the sutras says 
> nothing whatsoever about counting our breaths. Instead, we just focus on the 
> breath entering and leaving the nostrils. This works for me much better than 
> counting because counting can soon become a mantra taking our focus away from 
> the body. Actual bodily sensations are our doorway into reality rather than 
> concepts (such as numbers).MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail 
> for iPad
>






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Re: [Zen] Return to Emptiness: from nervous nellie

[uerusuboyo]

Bill!,When you put shikantaza into practice, is there a conscious 
decision to drop the following of the breath which leads into shikantaza, or 
does it just naturally cease? When I enter the jhanas/samadhi, I find the 
breath becomes so fine/subtle that it seems to have stopped. This creates a 
very pleasurable sensation and switching focus onto this feeling is what takes 
me into the first jhana. I'm wondering if your shikantaza is anything like 
that? MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

Re: [Zen] Return to Emptiness: from nervous nellie

[Merle Lester]

 nervous nellie...says: what a good idea..merle



  
Bill!,

When you put shikantaza into practice, is there a conscious decision to drop 
the following of the breath which leads into shikantaza, or does it just 
naturally cease? When I enter the jhanas/samadhi, I find the breath becomes so 
fine/subtle that it seems to have stopped. This creates a very pleasurable 
sensation and switching focus onto this feeling is what takes me into the first 
jhana. I'm wondering if your shikantaza is anything like that? 

Mike


Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad 




 From:  Bill! ; 
To:  ; 
Subject:  Re: [Zen] Return to Emptiness: from nervous nellie 
Sent:  Mon, Jul 29, 2013 11:33:57 AM 


  
Mike,

Counting the breaths is just the initial part of the teaching technique, at 
least as it was taught to me.  The full techniques is:
1.  Counting the breath:
1.1 - 1 on 1xhale, 2 on inhale, etc..., to 10 and then repeat
1.2 - 1 on exhale, 2 on next exhale, etc..., to 10 and then repeat
2.  Following the breath:
2.1 - No counting, just following exhale and inhale
2.2 - No counting, just following breath, exhale only
3. Drop the following - shikantaza - Just THIS!

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote:
>
> Hal, Bill!,I guess counting the breath is 'bread and butter' for 
> most people starting out (and also for seasoned meditators). I have found, 
> however, that the meditation on the breath as taught in the sutras says 
> nothing whatsoever about counting our breaths. Instead, we just focus on the 
> breath entering and leaving the nostrils. This works for me much better than 
> counting because counting can soon become a mantra taking our focus away from 
> the body. Actual bodily sensations are our doorway into reality rather than 
> concepts (such as numbers).MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail 
> for iPad
>

 
 

Re: [Zen] Return to Emptiness: from nervous nellie

[Eccentrics.R.US]

re shikantaza,

i have had this experience and when new to sitting meditation i freaked out
a bit and became afraid i would just
stop breathing.  After more practice the realization came that just as i do
not control the blood that courses through
my body or cause my own heart to beat i was safe from the mistaken belief
that my breath would just stop and i
would topple over and die.

i realize you are asking something different then what i posted about my
own practice,
and with my own practice, meditation became and becomes more fluid with
less thinking about form or outcome.

M



On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 7:01 AM,  wrote:

>
>
> Bill!,
>
> When you put shikantaza into practice, is there a conscious decision to
> drop the following of the breath which leads into shikantaza, or does it
> just naturally cease? When I enter the jhanas/samadhi, I find the breath
> becomes so fine/subtle that it seems to have stopped. This creates a very
> pleasurable sensation and switching focus onto this feeling is what takes
> me into the first jhana. I'm wondering if your shikantaza is anything like
> that?
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
>
>  ------
> * From: * Bill! ;
> * To: * ;
> * Subject: * Re: [Zen] Return to Emptiness: from nervous nellie
> * Sent: * Mon, Jul 29, 2013 11:33:57 AM
>
>
>
> Mike,
>
> Counting the breaths is just the initial part of the teaching technique,
> at least as it was taught to me. The full techniques is:
> 1. Counting the breath:
> 1.1 - 1 on 1xhale, 2 on inhale, etc..., to 10 and then repeat
> 1.2 - 1 on exhale, 2 on next exhale, etc..., to 10 and then repeat
> 2. Following the breath:
> 2.1 - No counting, just following exhale and inhale
> 2.2 - No counting, just following breath, exhale only
> 3. Drop the following - shikantaza - Just THIS!
>
> ...Bill!
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote:
> >
> > Hal, Bill!,I guess counting the breath is 'bread and butter'
> for most people starting out (and also for seasoned meditators). I have
> found, however, that the meditation on the breath as taught in the sutras
> says nothing whatsoever about counting our breaths. Instead, we just focus
> on the breath entering and leaving the nostrils. This works for me much
> better than counting because counting can soon become a mantra taking our
> focus away from the body. Actual bodily sensations are our doorway into
> reality rather than concepts (such as
> numbers).MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
> >
>
>
>
> 
>

Re: [Zen] Return to Emptiness: from nervous nellie

[Eccentrics.R.US]

uerusuboyo replied " I guess counting the breath is 'bread and butter' for
most people starting out (and also for seasoned meditators). I have found,
however, that the meditation on the breath as taught in the sutras says
nothing whatsoever about counting our breaths. Instead, we just focus on
the breath entering and leaving the nostrils. This works for me much better
than counting because counting can soon become a mantra taking our focus
away from the body. Actual bodily sensations are our doorway into reality
rather than concepts (such as numbers)"

i do want to reply that when i started focusing on body sensations during
meditation instead of counting, i felt more successful in my meditation.
it was a brand new concept to me and if i remember correctly from
instruction is that body sensations cause the intrusive or running stream of
thoughts and if a thought does arise during meditation, gently turn away
from thought and see what the body is experiencing, be it tension,
a slumping in the posture, a tightening of the hands or wrists or heaviness
in stomach or chest. i have been using this as my meditation for over
a year now but it is the first time i have heard of someone else that is
familiar with the practice of it.

Thank you

M


On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 6:33 AM, Bill!  wrote:

> Mike,
>
> Counting the breaths is just the initial part of the teaching technique,
> at least as it was taught to me.  The full techniques is:
> 1.  Counting the breath:
>1.1 - 1 on 1xhale, 2 on inhale, etc..., to 10 and then repeat
>1.2 - 1 on exhale, 2 on next exhale, etc..., to 10 and then repeat
> 2.  Following the breath:
>2.1 - No counting, just following exhale and inhale
>2.2 - No counting, just following breath, exhale only
> 3. Drop the following - shikantaza - Just THIS!
>
> ...Bill!
>
>
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote:
> >
> > Hal, Bill!,I guess counting the breath is 'bread and butter'
> for most people starting out (and also for seasoned meditators). I have
> found, however, that the meditation on the breath as taught in the sutras
> says nothing whatsoever about counting our breaths. Instead, we just focus
> on the breath entering and leaving the nostrils. This works for me much
> better than counting because counting can soon become a mantra taking our
> focus away from the body. Actual bodily sensations are our doorway into
> reality rather than concepts (such as
> numbers).MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
> >
>
>
>
>
> 
>
> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are
> reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Re: [Zen] Return to Emptiness: from nervous nellie

[覺妙精明 （JMJM）]

Hi M,

In Chan practice, instead of noticing "body sensations", we actually ask 
our practitioners to focus on Ten major chakras (acupressure points) 
inside of our body.


This not only redirects our mind, connects to the state of being of our 
body, also rejuvenating our major organs, so that we could eliminate our 
physical hindrances.


If you are interested, we offer free classes of this technique online at 
http://www.chanliving.org


JM
Ordained Teacher of Chan


On 7/29/2013 6:47 AM, Eccentrics.R.US wrote:
uerusuboyo replied " I guess counting the breath is 'bread and butter' 
for most people starting out (and also for seasoned meditators). I 
have found, however, that the meditation on the breath as taught in 
the sutras says nothing whatsoever about counting our breaths. 
Instead, we just focus on the breath entering and leaving the 
nostrils. This works for me much better than counting because counting 
can soon become a mantra taking our focus away from the body. Actual 
bodily sensations are our doorway into reality rather than concepts 
(such as numbers)"
i do want to reply that when i started focusing on body sensations 
during meditation instead of counting, i felt more successful in my 
meditation.
it was a brand new concept to me and if i remember correctly from 
instruction is that body sensations cause the intrusive or running 
stream of
thoughts and if a thought does arise during meditation, gently turn 
away from thought and see what the body is experiencing, be it tension,
a slumping in the posture, a tightening of the hands or wrists or 
heaviness in stomach or chest. i have been using this as my meditation 
for over
a year now but it is the first time i have heard of someone else that 
is familiar with the practice of it.

Thank you
M


On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 6:33 AM, Bill! > wrote:


Mike,

Counting the breaths is just the initial part of the teaching
technique, at least as it was taught to me.  The full techniques is:
1.  Counting the breath:
   1.1 - 1 on 1xhale, 2 on inhale, etc..., to 10 and then repeat
   1.2 - 1 on exhale, 2 on next exhale, etc..., to 10 and then repeat
2.  Following the breath:
   2.1 - No counting, just following exhale and inhale
   2.2 - No counting, just following breath, exhale only
3. Drop the following - shikantaza - Just THIS!

...Bill!



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
, uerusuboyo@... wrote:
>
> Hal, Bill!,I guess counting the breath is 'bread and
butter' for most people starting out (and also for seasoned
meditators). I have found, however, that the meditation on the
breath as taught in the sutras says nothing whatsoever about
counting our breaths. Instead, we just focus on the breath
entering and leaving the nostrils. This works for me much better
than counting because counting can soon become a mantra taking our
focus away from the body. Actual bodily sensations are our doorway
into reality rather than concepts (such as
numbers).MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
>






Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read
or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links


zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com

Re: [Zen] Return to Emptiness: from nervous nellie

[Eccentrics.R.US]

Hello everyone and thank you for the welcome,
it has been over 10 years since i was in groups
at yahoo.  i belonged to a yahoo sangha group
way back in 2005 that has since closed down.

If you have any suggestions about my posting
correctly, please don't hesitate to let me know.

This is my first foray back into the groups and
i am pleased to meet you

M


On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 8:47 AM, Eccentrics.R.US
wrote:

> uerusuboyo replied " I guess counting the breath is 'bread and butter' for
> most people starting out (and also for seasoned meditators). I have found,
> however, that the meditation on the breath as taught in the sutras says
> nothing whatsoever about counting our breaths. Instead, we just focus on
> the breath entering and leaving the nostrils. This works for me much better
> than counting because counting can soon become a mantra taking our focus
> away from the body. Actual bodily sensations are our doorway into reality
> rather than concepts (such as numbers)"
>
> i do want to reply that when i started focusing on body sensations during
> meditation instead of counting, i felt more successful in my meditation.
> it was a brand new concept to me and if i remember correctly from
> instruction is that body sensations cause the intrusive or running stream of
> thoughts and if a thought does arise during meditation, gently turn away
> from thought and see what the body is experiencing, be it tension,
> a slumping in the posture, a tightening of the hands or wrists or
> heaviness in stomach or chest. i have been using this as my meditation for
> over
> a year now but it is the first time i have heard of someone else that is
> familiar with the practice of it.
>
> Thank you
>
> M
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 6:33 AM, Bill!  wrote:
>
>> Mike,
>>
>> Counting the breaths is just the initial part of the teaching technique,
>> at least as it was taught to me.  The full techniques is:
>> 1.  Counting the breath:
>>1.1 - 1 on 1xhale, 2 on inhale, etc..., to 10 and then repeat
>>1.2 - 1 on exhale, 2 on next exhale, etc..., to 10 and then repeat
>> 2.  Following the breath:
>>2.1 - No counting, just following exhale and inhale
>>2.2 - No counting, just following breath, exhale only
>> 3. Drop the following - shikantaza - Just THIS!
>>
>> ...Bill!
>>
>>
>>
>> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote:
>> >
>> > Hal, Bill!,I guess counting the breath is 'bread and butter'
>> for most people starting out (and also for seasoned meditators). I have
>> found, however, that the meditation on the breath as taught in the sutras
>> says nothing whatsoever about counting our breaths. Instead, we just focus
>> on the breath entering and leaving the nostrils. This works for me much
>> better than counting because counting can soon become a mantra taking our
>> focus away from the body. Actual bodily sensations are our doorway into
>> reality rather than concepts (such as
>> numbers).MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are
>> reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [Zen] Return to Emptiness: from nervous nellie

[Bill!]

Mike,

Shikantaza is like that.  It does seem to be something you 'slide' into, and 
although afterwards you can say that one moment you're not there and the next 
moment you are, there is no awareness of the transition when it happens.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote:
>
> Bill!,When you put shikantaza into practice, is there a conscious 
> decision to drop the following of the breath which leads into shikantaza, or 
> does it just naturally cease? When I enter the jhanas/samadhi, I find the 
> breath becomes so fine/subtle that it seems to have stopped. This creates a 
> very pleasurable sensation and switching focus onto this feeling is what 
> takes me into the first jhana. I'm wondering if your shikantaza is anything 
> like that? MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
>






Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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Re: [Zen] Return to Emptiness: from nervous nellie

[uerusuboyo]

M,I began practicing Zen 10 years, or so, ago. I discovered Vipassana 
meditation about 5 years ago. I  have found that Vipassana explains things that 
Zen leaves empty (pun noted). My (Zen) practice has deepened considerably since 
discovering Vipassana and one of the factors is focusing on bodily sensations 
as the doorway into reality. The sutras talk about this a lot and Buddha 
himself said that within this "fathom long" body will you discover the truth. 
No where in the sutras does it say to observe thoughts or count the breath. 
Since dropping both my meditation has changed considerably. For me, when my 
mind wanders I just come back to the sensation of air on the entrance of my 
nostrils. Very grounding.MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for 
iPad

Re: [Zen] Return to Emptiness: from nervous nellie

[uerusuboyo]

Bill!,Would you say that when you are in shikantaza that you are also 
in samadhi?MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

Re: [Zen] Return to Emptiness: from nervous nellie

[Bill!]

Mike and M,

Counting breaths (and chanting, bowing, koans, etc...) are just techniques used 
to focus the mind on repetitive thoughts to the point where it shuts down 
(usually out of boredom) which allows the experience of Buddha Nature.

Any way you can halt the creation of dualism (intellectualizations) and enter 
into samadhi (or what I call shikantaza) is fine.

Do whatever works for you.

...Bill!  

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote:
>
> M,I began practicing Zen 10 years, or so, ago. I discovered 
> Vipassana meditation about 5 years ago. I  have found that Vipassana explains 
> things that Zen leaves empty (pun noted). My (Zen) practice has deepened 
> considerably since discovering Vipassana and one of the factors is focusing 
> on bodily sensations as the doorway into reality. The sutras talk about this 
> a lot and Buddha himself said that within this "fathom long" body will you 
> discover the truth. No where in the sutras does it say to observe thoughts or 
> count the breath. Since dropping both my meditation has changed considerably. 
> For me, when my mind wanders I just come back to the sensation of air on the 
> entrance of my nostrils. Very grounding.MikeSent 
> from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
>





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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Re: [Zen] Return to Emptiness: from nervous nellie

[Bill!]

Mike,

Yes, I just posted something about that.  To me they are the same: samadhi and 
shikantaza.

Wikipedia defines 'samadhi' as "a non-dualistic state of consciousness in which 
the consciousness of the experiencing subject becomes one with the experienced 
object" which is a pretty good description.  I call this a 'monistic' state, or 
'monism' which just means it's not dualistic or pluralistic.

Just THIS!

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote:
>
> Bill!,Would you say that when you are in shikantaza that you are 
> also in samadhi?MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
>





Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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Re: [Zen] Return to Emptiness: from nervous nellie

[Edgar Owen]

Bill,

Bore yourself into enlightenment?

That's a new one!

Edgar



On Jul 30, 2013, at 4:02 AM, Bill! wrote:

> Mike and M,
> 
> Counting breaths (and chanting, bowing, koans, etc...) are just techniques 
> used to focus the mind on repetitive thoughts to the point where it shuts 
> down (usually out of boredom) which allows the experience of Buddha Nature.
> 
> Any way you can halt the creation of dualism (intellectualizations) and enter 
> into samadhi (or what I call shikantaza) is fine.
> 
> Do whatever works for you.
> 
> ...Bill! 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote:
> >
> > M,I began practicing Zen 10 years, or so, ago. I discovered 
> > Vipassana meditation about 5 years ago. I have found that Vipassana 
> > explains things that Zen leaves empty (pun noted). My (Zen) practice has 
> > deepened considerably since discovering Vipassana and one of the factors is 
> > focusing on bodily sensations as the doorway into reality. The sutras talk 
> > about this a lot and Buddha himself said that within this "fathom long" 
> > body will you discover the truth. No where in the sutras does it say to 
> > observe thoughts or count the breath. Since dropping both my meditation has 
> > changed considerably. For me, when my mind wanders I just come back to the 
> > sensation of air on the entrance of my nostrils. Very 
> > grounding.MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
> >
> 
> 

Re: [Zen] Return to Emptiness: from nervous nellie

[uerusuboyo]

Bill!,If you have time, take a look at this 1995 newsletter from Chan 
Center. 
http://chancenter.org/cmc/1995/02/01/shikantaza-and-silent-illumination/MikeSent
 from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

Re: [Zen] Return to Emptiness: from nervous nellie

[Chris Austin-Lane]

Bore yourself with the dualistic productions, seems useful to me.

Thanks,
--Chris
301-270-6524
 On Jul 30, 2013 3:28 AM, "Edgar Owen"  wrote:

>
>
> Bill,
>
> Bore yourself into enlightenment?
>
> That's a new one!
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
> On Jul 30, 2013, at 4:02 AM, Bill! wrote:
>
>
>
> Mike and M,
>
> Counting breaths (and chanting, bowing, koans, etc...) are just techniques
> used to focus the mind on repetitive thoughts to the point where it shuts
> down (usually out of boredom) which allows the experience of Buddha Nature.
>
> Any way you can halt the creation of dualism (intellectualizations) and
> enter into samadhi (or what I call shikantaza) is fine.
>
> Do whatever works for you.
>
> ...Bill!
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote:
> >
> > M,I began practicing Zen 10 years, or so, ago. I discovered
> Vipassana meditation about 5 years ago. I have found that Vipassana
> explains things that Zen leaves empty (pun noted). My (Zen) practice has
> deepened considerably since discovering Vipassana and one of the factors is
> focusing on bodily sensations as the doorway into reality. The sutras talk
> about this a lot and Buddha himself said that within this "fathom long"
> body will you discover the truth. No where in the sutras does it say to
> observe thoughts or count the breath. Since dropping both my meditation has
> changed considerably. For me, when my mind wanders I just come back to the
> sensation of air on the entrance of my nostrils. Very
> grounding.MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
> >
>
>
>
>
> 
>

Re: [Zen] Return to Emptiness: from nervous nellie

[Bill!]

Edgar,

By 'boredom' I mean that the intellect (aka 'monkey mind') has become bored by 
repetitive thoughts or exhausted itself trying to 'figure out' a koan, and 
finally shuts down.  I use the term 'quiesce' to describe this which means to 
cease functioning temporarily, but can be restarted.

It is in this window where the intellect has 'quiesced' that Buddha Nature may 
be realized.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane  wrote:
>
> Bore yourself with the dualistic productions, seems useful to me.
> 
> Thanks,
> --Chris
> 301-270-6524
>  On Jul 30, 2013 3:28 AM, "Edgar Owen"  wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > Bill,
> >
> > Bore yourself into enlightenment?
> >
> > That's a new one!
> >
> > Edgar
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jul 30, 2013, at 4:02 AM, Bill! wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike and M,
> >
> > Counting breaths (and chanting, bowing, koans, etc...) are just techniques
> > used to focus the mind on repetitive thoughts to the point where it shuts
> > down (usually out of boredom) which allows the experience of Buddha Nature.
> >
> > Any way you can halt the creation of dualism (intellectualizations) and
> > enter into samadhi (or what I call shikantaza) is fine.
> >
> > Do whatever works for you.
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@ wrote:
> > >
> > > M,I began practicing Zen 10 years, or so, ago. I discovered
> > Vipassana meditation about 5 years ago. I have found that Vipassana
> > explains things that Zen leaves empty (pun noted). My (Zen) practice has
> > deepened considerably since discovering Vipassana and one of the factors is
> > focusing on bodily sensations as the doorway into reality. The sutras talk
> > about this a lot and Buddha himself said that within this "fathom long"
> > body will you discover the truth. No where in the sutras does it say to
> > observe thoughts or count the breath. Since dropping both my meditation has
> > changed considerably. For me, when my mind wanders I just come back to the
> > sensation of air on the entrance of my nostrils. Very
> > grounding.MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >
>





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