On 11/17/2014 01:54 PM, Ludovic Meyer wrote:
On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 08:29:28PM -0500, Marty wrote:
On 11/16/2014 03:32 PM, Ludovic Meyer wrote:
>On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 01:05:08PM -0500, Marty wrote:
>>My point is that in a modular design nothing should be so entrenched
>>as to be irreplaceabl
On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 08:44:06AM +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
> One thing at a time.
>
> On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 1:23 AM, Ludovic Meyer wrote:
> > [...]
> > Your definition of mainstream is strange.
>
> What's strange about it? Do I need to provide a link to the dictionary
> for you for that? I ass
On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 04:09:52PM -0500, The Wanderer wrote:
> On 11/16/2014 at 02:51 PM, Ludovic Meyer wrote:
>
> > On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 01:28:35PM -0500, The Wanderer wrote:
>
> [about the Linux kernel developers]
>
> >> They do, however, maintain their external interfaces - rigidly so,
>
Le 16/11/2014 02:13, Ludovic Meyer a écrit :
> On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 10:05:49PM +0100, Erwan David wrote:
>> Le 15/11/2014 20:24, Brian a écrit :
>>> On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 11:37:14 -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote:
>>>
Brian wrote:
> On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 13:49:18 +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 08:29:28PM -0500, Marty wrote:
> On 11/16/2014 03:32 PM, Ludovic Meyer wrote:
> >On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 01:05:08PM -0500, Marty wrote:
>
> >>My point is that in a modular design nothing should be so entrenched
> >>as to be irreplaceable. Absence of an alternate should not
On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 12:00:52PM -0500, Ric Moore wrote:
> On 11/15/2014 08:35 PM, Ludovic Meyer wrote:
>
> >At the same time, most debian users likely do not really care about
> >transition
> >plan and systemd. It was widely published everywhere in March and yet, no
> >one would have cared if
On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 10:14:17PM +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 8:51 PM, Andrei POPESCU
> wrote:
> > On Vi, 14 nov 14, 22:53:36, Joel Rees wrote:
> >>
> >> If you can't deal with it, snip it?
> >
> > I don't think it brings anything useful to a discussion on -user. That's
> >
On 11/16/2014 03:32 PM, Ludovic Meyer wrote:
On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 01:05:08PM -0500, Marty wrote:
My point is that in a modular design nothing should be so entrenched
as to be irreplaceable. Absence of an alternate should not normally
indicate impossibility of an alternate, but some discussi
One thing at a time.
On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 1:23 AM, Ludovic Meyer wrote:
> [...]
> Your definition of mainstream is strange.
What's strange about it? Do I need to provide a link to the dictionary
for you for that? I assume not.
Given a community, there is a mainstream within that community.
On 11/16/2014 at 02:51 PM, Ludovic Meyer wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 01:28:35PM -0500, The Wanderer wrote:
[about the Linux kernel developers]
>> They do, however, maintain their external interfaces - rigidly so,
>> sometimes to what others might call the point of insanity. An
>> intention
On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 01:05:08PM -0500, Marty wrote:
> On 11/16/2014 05:26 AM, Laurent Bigonville wrote:
> >Le Sat, 15 Nov 2014 20:21:49 -0500,
> >Marty a écrit :
> >
> >>On 11/15/2014 06:49 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> >[...]
> >>>
> >>> At least some of people rejecting systemd demand that it
On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 01:28:35PM -0500, The Wanderer wrote:
> On 11/16/2014 at 11:23 AM, Ludovic Meyer wrote:
>
> > On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 09:43:23PM +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
> >
> >> I have been informed off-list that some might misinterpret
> >> something I wrote here, so I will attempt to cl
On 11/16/2014 at 11:23 AM, Ludovic Meyer wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 09:43:23PM +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
>
>> I have been informed off-list that some might misinterpret
>> something I wrote here, so I will attempt to clarify a few things.
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 8:59 AM, Joel Rees
>>
On 11/16/2014 05:26 AM, Laurent Bigonville wrote:
Le Sat, 15 Nov 2014 20:21:49 -0500,
Marty a écrit :
On 11/15/2014 06:49 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
[...]
>
> At least some of people rejecting systemd demand that it be removed
> completely, including libsystemd. How is it pro-choice to forbi
On 11/15/2014 08:35 PM, Ludovic Meyer wrote:
At the same time, most debian users likely do not really care about transition
plan and systemd. It was widely published everywhere in March and yet, no one
would have cared if this
mattered ?
I installed systemd to Jessie as soon as it was announc
Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Du, 16 nov 14, 10:18:24, Miles Fidelman wrote:
Let me also turn the question back at you:
Have you considered, just for a fraction of a second, that a migration
to systemd, could, in fact, make some systems LESS reliable and understandable?
Sure I did. systemd is not b
On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 09:43:23PM +0900, Joel Rees wrote:
> I have been informed off-list that some might misinterpret something I
> wrote here, so I will attempt to clarify a few things.
>
> On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 8:59 AM, Joel Rees wrote:
> > On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 11:04 PM, Tanstaafl
> >
On Du, 16 nov 14, 10:18:24, Miles Fidelman wrote:
>
> Let me also turn the question back at you:
>
> Have you considered, just for a fraction of a second, that a migration
> to systemd, could, in fact, make some systems LESS reliable and
> understandable?
Sure I did. systemd is not bug-free and
Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Sb, 15 nov 14, 11:37:14, Miles Fidelman wrote:
For some (many?) of us, systemd represents no gain, and significant
operational impact (time required to deal with changes).
Have you considered, just for a fraction of a second, that a migration
to systemd, however painful
On Sb, 15 nov 14, 11:37:14, Miles Fidelman wrote:
>
> For some (many?) of us, systemd represents no gain, and significant
> operational impact (time required to deal with changes).
Have you considered, just for a fraction of a second, that a migration
to systemd, however painful it may prove, co
I have been informed off-list that some might misinterpret something I
wrote here, so I will attempt to clarify a few things.
On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 8:59 AM, Joel Rees wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 11:04 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:
>> On 11/12/2014 5:18 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
>>> On Mi, 12 nov
Le Sat, 15 Nov 2014 20:21:49 -0500,
Marty a écrit :
> On 11/15/2014 06:49 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
[...]
> >
> > At least some of people rejecting systemd demand that it be removed
> > completely, including libsystemd. How is it pro-choice to forbid me
> > from being able to use a software at it
On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 03:43:40PM -0500, Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 11/15/2014 7:20 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:55:47, Tanstaafl wrote:
> >> On 11/14/2014 5:26 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> >>> It was claimed that sysvinit was the default *and only* (emphasis not
> >>> mine) ini
On 11/15/2014 06:49 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:04:00, Marty wrote:
On 11/14/2014 05:26 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
>On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:59:11, Joel Rees wrote:
Jumping in here as myself, not Joel's tag-team member. :)
>"Debian" as an entity doesn't really do much. There are
On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 10:05:49PM +0100, Erwan David wrote:
> Le 15/11/2014 20:24, Brian a écrit :
> > On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 11:37:14 -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> >
> >> Brian wrote:
> >>> On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 13:49:18 +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> >>>
> On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:04:00, Marty
On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 11:37:14AM -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> Brian wrote:
> >On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 13:49:18 +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> >
> >>On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:04:00, Marty wrote:
> >>>By the same token systemd is a major waste with no real gain. It duplicates
> >>>equivalent modular alt
On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 19:24:49 +, Brian wrote:
> Upgrading
> -
>
>After changing sources.list and an 'apt-get update' do
>
> apt-get install sysvinit-core systemd-shim
>
>Then proceed with an upgrade and dist-upgrade.
>
> New Install
> ---
>
>Use the apt-g
Brian wrote:
On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 11:37:14 -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote:
Brian wrote:
On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 13:49:18 +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:04:00, Marty wrote:
By the same token systemd is a major waste with no real gain. It duplicates
equivalent modular alternati
Le 15/11/2014 20:24, Brian a écrit :
> On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 11:37:14 -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote:
>
>> Brian wrote:
>>> On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 13:49:18 +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
>>>
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:04:00, Marty wrote:
> By the same token systemd is a major waste with no real gain.
On 11/15/2014 7:20 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:55:47, Tanstaafl wrote:
>> On 11/14/2014 5:26 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
>>> It was claimed that sysvinit was the default *and only* (emphasis not
>>> mine) init, and therefore no selection was needed, but now that there
>>> are
On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 11:37:14 -0500, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> Brian wrote:
> >On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 13:49:18 +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> >
> >>On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:04:00, Marty wrote:
> >>>By the same token systemd is a major waste with no real gain. It duplicates
> >>>equivalent modular altern
On 15-11-2014 16:59, Brian wrote:
On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 15:22:06 +0200, Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis wrote:
On 15-11-2014 14:17, Brian wrote:
>On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 13:49:18 +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
>
>>On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:04:00, Marty wrote:
>>>
>>> By the same token systemd is a major waste
Brian wrote:
On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 13:49:18 +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:04:00, Marty wrote:
By the same token systemd is a major waste with no real gain. It duplicates
equivalent modular alternatives, and also requires unnecessary effort to
repair damage from excessive co
2014/11/15 22:57 "Andrei POPESCU" :
>
> On Sb, 15 nov 14, 22:05:58, Joel Rees wrote:
> > On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 9:20 PM, Andrei POPESCU
> > wrote:
> > > [(clipping too much, I now realize)]
> > > The transition plan[5] has been posted on -devel since July with no
> > > objections.
> > >
> > > [5]
On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 15:22:06 +0200, Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis wrote:
> On 15-11-2014 14:17, Brian wrote:
> >On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 13:49:18 +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> >
> >>On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:04:00, Marty wrote:
> >>>
> >>> By the same token systemd is a major waste with no real gain. It
>
On Sb, 15 nov 14, 22:05:58, Joel Rees wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 9:20 PM, Andrei POPESCU
> wrote:
> > [(clipping too much, I now realize)]
> > The transition plan[5] has been posted on -devel since July with no
> > objections.
> >
> > [5] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2014/07/msg0061
On 15-11-2014 14:17, Brian wrote:
On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 13:49:18 +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:04:00, Marty wrote:
>
> By the same token systemd is a major waste with no real gain. It duplicates
> equivalent modular alternatives, and also requires unnecessary effort to
> rep
On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 8:51 PM, Andrei POPESCU
wrote:
> On Vi, 14 nov 14, 22:53:36, Joel Rees wrote:
>> On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 7:26 PM, Andrei POPESCU
>> wrote:
>> > On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:59:11, Joel Rees wrote:
>> > > [...]
>> > [snip another wall of text about engineering principles]
>>
>> And
On Sat, Nov 15, 2014 at 9:20 PM, Andrei POPESCU
wrote:
> [(clipping too much, I now realize)]
> The transition plan[5] has been posted on -devel since July with no
> objections.
>
> [5] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2014/07/msg00611.html
My impression is that objections logged to that thr
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:55:47, Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 11/14/2014 5:26 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > It was claimed that sysvinit was the default *and only* (emphasis not
> > mine) init, and therefore no selection was needed, but now that there
> > are several a selection suddenly is needed.
>
> I d
On Sat 15 Nov 2014 at 13:49:18 +0200, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:04:00, Marty wrote:
> >
> > By the same token systemd is a major waste with no real gain. It duplicates
> > equivalent modular alternatives, and also requires unnecessary effort to
> > repair damage from excessive
On Sat, 15 Nov 2014 13:49:18 +0200
Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> In my opinion the best "defence" against a monopoly[1] of any kind is to
> develop competitive alternatives.
We have seen how well that worked with MS Windows over the years...
Cheers,
Ron.
--
Nada es tan peligroso
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 22:53:36, Joel Rees wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 7:26 PM, Andrei POPESCU
> wrote:
> > On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:59:11, Joel Rees wrote:
> > > [...]
> > [snip another wall of text about engineering principles]
>
> And, thus, once again,
>
> > > The engineering question keeps gett
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:04:00, Marty wrote:
> On 11/14/2014 05:26 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> >On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:59:11, Joel Rees wrote:
>
>
> Jumping in here as myself, not Joel's tag-team member. :)
>
> >"Debian" as an entity doesn't really do much. There are only one or
> >several volunteers
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 13:27:22, Helmut Wollmersdorfer wrote:
>
> And all this says nothing about big servers, which need some
> magnitudes more of reliability, stability and scaling. E.g. not using
> plain text files for logs causes problems in the long run and in daily
> work.
The default setting
2014/11/14 23:12 "Tanstaafl" :
>
> On 11/14/2014 5:26 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> > It was claimed that sysvinit was the default *and only* (emphasis not
> > mine) init, and therefore no selection was needed, but now that there
> > are several a selection suddenly is needed.
>
> I don't recall cla
On 11/14/2014 5:26 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> It was claimed that sysvinit was the default *and only* (emphasis not
> mine) init, and therefore no selection was needed, but now that there
> are several a selection suddenly is needed.
I don't recall claiming that sysvinit was the *only* init, n
On Fri, 14 Nov 2014 13:10:22 +
Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > Do you remember the Gnome/KDE war? Now
> > we have two great desktop. Let's not impose by law an init system.
>
> Yes, but Gnome is the default and you have to be an "advanced user" to get
> KDE.
Not really, you just have to choose whe
On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 7:26 PM, Andrei POPESCU
wrote:
> On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:59:11, Joel Rees wrote:
> > [...]
> [snip another wall of text about engineering principles]
And, thus, once again,
> > The engineering question keeps getting sidetracked by people who
> > assert that we are talking ab
On Friday 14 November 2014 12:27:22 Helmut Wollmersdorfer wrote:
> Am 14.11.2014 um 11:26 schrieb Andrei POPESCU :
> > Again, I can't comment on Fedora, but my Raspberry Pi runs systemd just
> > fine. Also my laptop running is quite far from being a speed monster.
>
> On my two Raspberries I do not
Le Fri, 14 Nov 2014 12:26:09 +0200,
Andrei POPESCU a écrit :
> On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:59:11, Joel Rees wrote:
[...]
>
> > So Fedora is not, itself, really ready yet, except for two groups, a
> > certain group of workstation users who want and are willing to use
> > fairly new, relatively high-end
On Friday 14 November 2014 11:42:32 Dan wrote:
> Do you remember the Gnome/KDE war? Now
> we have two great desktop. Let's not impose by law an init system.
Yes, but Gnome is the default and you have to be an "advanced user" to get
KDE.
And anyway, some of us want neither and have to go to even
On 11/14/2014 05:26 AM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:59:11, Joel Rees wrote:
Jumping in here as myself, not Joel's tag-team member. :)
"Debian" as an entity doesn't really do much. There are only one or
several volunteers who start doing things. Setting up a separate "port"
for
Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis wrote:
On 14-11-2014 12:26, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
< snip >
However, you and several others are rejecting systemd on ideological
grounds. There's not much that can be done about that, short or
re-implementing systemd according to your vision.
I personally reject the d
Am 14.11.2014 um 11:26 schrieb Andrei POPESCU :
> Again, I can't comment on Fedora, but my Raspberry Pi runs systemd just
> fine. Also my laptop running is quite far from being a speed monster.
On my two Raspberries I do not care.
On a laptop it depends on your usage profile, and what your req
On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 11:26 AM, Andrei POPESCU
wrote:
> On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:59:11, Joel Rees wrote:
>> On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 11:04 PM, Tanstaafl
>> wrote:
>> > On 11/12/2014 5:18 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
>> >> On Mi, 12 nov 14, 15:43:09, Tanstaafl wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Sounds good to me, b
On 14-11-2014 12:26, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
< snip >
However, you and several others are rejecting systemd on ideological
grounds. There's not much that can be done about that, short or
re-implementing systemd according to your vision.
I personally reject the design of systemd.
To paraphrase
On Vi, 14 nov 14, 08:59:11, Joel Rees wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 11:04 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> > On 11/12/2014 5:18 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> >> On Mi, 12 nov 14, 15:43:09, Tanstaafl wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Sounds good to me, but in reality, since the default *and only* init
> >>> system for th
On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 11:04 PM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 11/12/2014 5:18 PM, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
>> On Mi, 12 nov 14, 15:43:09, Tanstaafl wrote:
>>>
>>> Sounds good to me, but in reality, since the default *and only* init
>>> system for the last very many years was Sysvinit (this extremely salie
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