I understand why Ed has gone to html pages for the 'manual'.
Speaking as a former 'Help' author, I know that's it's a
major task to keep a complete conventional Help file
maintained and updated, when changes are occurring all the
time. Obviously it's less important than the program itself,
when yo
Paint Shop Pro 7 has a facility called "print multiple
images" that does most of what you require, but you'd have
to create the captions as separate images using PSP7's text
tool.
- Original Message -
From: Ian Boag <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2
stry as well as everything else.
Regards,
Alan Tyson
- Original Message -
From: Rob Geraghty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 12:05 AM
> I've heard that too, although I don't understand what
difference it makes
> when t
I'm a Freeserve user, yet I've had these messages. I spotted
the offending virus-containing message as dodgy and deleted
it immediately on arrival.
Regards,
Alan T
- Original Message -
From: Steve Greenbank <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 1:
uming to achieve high quality or to do
large numbers of images.
Regards & good luck,
Alan Tyson
- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 12:12 PM
Subject: filmscanners: Quick / Quality Scans - Help
> .
> BTW, do you think 2800-2900 dpi is good enough for quality
A3 sized print
> (about 260-270 dpi
> and that size)
Yes, if it's an inkjet print, because the printer resolution
is less than this (approx 200dpi sent to the printer). But
remember you may wish to crop a frame, and still print at
A3, s
Title: FW: DIGITAL CAMERA SCANS
I have copies of a friend's results using an modest 2yr old
Sony consumer digital camera on a 6x6 Hasselblad slide, and they're excellent,
so I expect an upmarket digital camera on a 35mm slide would be pretty good.
As usual, it depends how fussy you are.
I suggest reading Vuescan's own Help file right through,
using the Browse buttons (>>). It's concise, and everything
is there. I think there are fewer than 50 pages, and quite a
few of those are details of scanners, so it doesn't take
long. If you have a raw scan file saved on disk, you can
experi
I set my default Vuescan buffer to 20%, on the grounds that
that's the sort of thing most of us live with quite happily
in centre-weighted exposure metering systems (grins & ducks
while hoping that endless off-topic discussion on
centre-weighted meters does not ensue).
However, I've never got rou
Roger,
I have seen something similar recently (5K Scanwit/Vuescan
positive clip attached) on a neg film processed in a
brand-new Kodak minilab in my local Tesco store. The bubbles
on mine are about 140 microns diameter (15pixels @ 2700ppi),
but I can't tell the size of yours without knowing how t
I have taken to leaving a deliberately blank frame on every
film in order to scan it for the mask. Sometimes I find
Vuescan's results better with these settings, and sometimes
not; I have to try it and see. Perhaps this is because I
have a Scanwit, on which Vuescan can't control the exposure.
BTW
>I've heard rumor that these canned air
>products might not be good for film, but so far
>I've had no visible problem.
As you say, care is necessary to avoid squirting propellant
on the film. Another hazard to avoid is chilling the film
and causing condensation to appear. The spray will be rather
David Lewiston [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote on Sun, 16 Sep 2001
13:57:58 -1000
>
> ...buy an enema bulb. I've used one for years (only for my
negs and
> tranies you understand) and don't have a dust problem.
Alan T says
Last time David L suggested this, I tried hard to buy one
from many pharmac
JASC hasn't taken compression/decompression of 48-bit images
seriously because PSP can't work with them. If you do load a
48-bit image you can only save it as 24-bit. For 'serious'
users (which doesn't include me) this is a bad drawback, and
means you're stuck with Photoshop or similar.
I used to
Ian,
Ignoramus?
Rubbish!
Take a Nobel Prize, or at least a D.Sc for having done the
experiment; tried it out!
I have a friend with a digicam who keeps finding out things
like this. He's a professional who likes to do things
properly for the paying customers, but will also do the
experiments. You
Not all versions of Vuescan behave the same with respect to
SCSI refreshes. I had the following exchange with Ed on
3Mar01...
> I notice that in the current Vuescan v6.7.5 on Win98, I no
longer have to
> refresh the SCSI interface
Frank,
I bet you're right, and this explains the wide divergence of
view here on Scanwit multiscanning accuracy which we've
discussed at least twice over the last year or so.
If using Herm's subtraction method to identify
discrepancies, the experiment to do is to compare several
different single
When I've tried multiscanning on my 2720S, I've found it
hard to detect any degradation. Misalignment is of the order
of one 2700 ppi pixel on mine, or less, so it wouldn't
bother most
people. I can see it might mess up star locations.
Regards,
Alan T
- Original Message -
From: Herm <[EM
I use PSP7.02 routinely, but still have occasional recourse
to the following features in PS5LE
1. PS5LE's 'Variations' screen, where you can compare
different twiddles alongside each other, with adjustable
degrees of aggressiveness.
2. The PS5LE pick tool for selecting white point and black
I also have the yellow stain on my 2720S, but it is seldom a
problem. I have followed the discussion with interest. I
fear it's what we have to put up with in this very good
value downmarket product.
Vuescan shows the problem more than Miraphoto simply because
it's better at recording what's put
I haven't seen any film base deterioration yet in any of my
negs from the last 42 years (starting at age 10). I live in
the cool, moist UK, and they've been stored with no special
precautions. My octogenarian parents have lots of negs
stacked together in good condition in the original paper
wallet
Frank,
I've often failed to snap 'the center "snaps"' correctly on
my Scanwit 2720S, but scanning the wrong frame wasn't the
result - I got fatal failure to focus in Miraphoto, and
'hangs' in Vuescan.
So I hope clicking the carrier properly fixes your problem,
but I don't think I've had the 'wro
electively bleached
out during processing.
It is thus inherently easier in the latter processes to use
permanent dyes; the colour chemists have fewer constraints
because they don't have to meet the requirements of
developer chemistry as well as everything else.
Regards,
Alan Tyson
- O
"mnemonic" ?
Can't remember what that means. ISTR I could even spell it
on demand, a long time ago.
SWALK
Alan T
- Original Message -
From: Todd Radel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 4:47 AM
Subject: Re: filmscanners: brief density math lesson...
I had lots of trouble with Vuescan yesterday, but attributed it to my
recent hard disk failure then upgrade, change from Win98 to Win98SE, and rebuild
of my software. This is with a Scanwit and 192MB RAM.
I had many crashes, not on opening Vuescan, but during operation. I tried
versions 7
It sounds to me as though your backup software may be
keeping a record of everything that has been installed since
the last backup, and trying to recreate it when you restore,
and also trying to verify that this will be possible.
If this is the case it's a superficially good but naive idea
from t
Just to add an alternative, broader view to the
discussion
I agree that scanning the negative always has the potential
for a better result, and that's what I always do myself as
first choice. BUT let us not forget that simple flatbed
print scanning has its place, because..
1. It's very q
Thanks Rob, and Dail&Gail, for the lists of fixes in the
PSP7.02 patch.
I use PSP7.0 almost every day on 2700ppi filmscans, and
luckily I haven't hit any of these problems. I've had it
since the UK launch (about a year ago?). This is on a 400MHz
Pentium II with 192MB RAM.
I use the clipboard a l
> PS If you get PSP 7 make sure you download the appropriate
7.02 patch.
Rob,
Do you know what's in the 'patch'?
You inspired me to take a look, and it's a 10MB download for
the International English version, so I don't want it unless
I really need it.
I haven't yet found anything myself that
> B&W prints and full strength household
> ammonia dissolved the emulsion right off the print.
Arthur,
Ammonia is also quite a good solvent for metallic silver,
especially finely divided as in B&W images, so I presume the
idea was to remove an unwanted relative, politician or other
bystander fr
AIUI, there is no software control of *exposure* available
to the Scanwit programmer, so you're stuck with the
automatic exposure that the machine decides is appropriate
for the frame being scanned. All Vuescan (or any other
software) can do is twiddle the raw scan after scanning. So
scanning 'bla
No-one has commented on the difference between my results
a bit of lace jpegged 10 times), posted on 30Mar, and
Henk's image of a letter on a plain background, similarly
treated. I can assure folk that I saved each image under a
new name and only *then* closed it before reloading it.
Is it perha
I tried it with ten iterations in PSP7, and saw no visible
degradation, so my finding was different from Henk's.
Attached: two 6K jpeg clips of a bit of lace, clipped out of
400x250 29K clips from an original 2700 dpi scan.
The first is a clip from a PSP7 '15%' jpeg photograph,
resaved once as
> A program opens and re-adjusts the image for viewing;
>I've seen both PS
> and PP8 change the size values on a subsequent Save
I have never seen Paint Shop Pro do this for an unedited
image. The file size is likely to be different, however, if
the first image came from a different package's jpe
Maris said:
> Just a note on LZW compressed image portability - I have
run into one
> instance where an LZW compressed image was not portable -
when exporting a
> 48-bit compressed TIFF from Vuescan to Corel PhotoPaint 9
it opens but the
> image is unrecognizable. If exported uncompressed there
Ah! Several people have told me that Tesco & Jessops film is
likely to be Konica, and if Konica manufacture in Germany,
that tallies. I think these two brands are the same, and the
same as "Activa" films supplied by the Bonusprint D&P firm.
They have similar markings on the neg top edges, includin
I have in my hand a Tesco (leading UK supermarket chain)
pack of 8x36 400ASA neg films, which cost me 12 ukpounds.
This is 30% of the cost of Kodak Supra 400, which, I've been
tempted to try because of its anti-scratch coating. I get
lots of random scratch trouble from several different labs.
The
I've been trawling in the archive
(http://phi.res.cse.dmu.ac.uk/htdig) for the discussion I
remember here 3-4 months ago about Kodak's "Supra" neg
films, with allegedly good characteristics for scanning, and
a protective layer. The conclusions were ambiguous then.
Like Michael Wilkinson who's rep
> >don't you reckon, Vuescan lacks of good tutorial, help
file, manual?
Speaking as a former Help author, I think Vuescan's Help is
very good for a program that has evolved so rapidly. The way
it's structured at the moment lends itself to quick & easy
amendment of individual topics, without a maj
As usual, the physics & chemistry is more complicated than
one would expect.
If we're after something that has as little effect as
possible on the chemical balance of the emulsion, pure water
probably isn't the best thing. It has zero concentration of
almost everything except water (it's a 55 Mol
Googling on "Hanimex Rondex" was in fact my first stop, but
I found nothing relevant in the UK. Most of the hits I got
were second order hits on Hanimex lenses. I imagine
intercontinental transportation costs would be prohibitive,
and probably not worthwhile on something that's worth
considerably
Dear Arthur,
I've just experienced yet another photographic archiving
lesson, this time rather a painful one, with a lesson for
all of us about dependence on current technology.
I have thousands of colour slides, taken from approx
1970-1991, and about 7800 of these are stored in Hanimex
Rondex 1
Khalid said:
> > 2-What file Format should I use to save?
>
Arthur said:
> TIFF or any other you think you will be able to read years
from now,
> which is lossless. That precludes JPEG
Alan T says:
Arthur,
Khalid didn't give us any clues on just how perfect an
archive of his negs he want
As Henry says, CLI means "Command Line Interface". (Like DOS
and native Unix, and millions of programs running under
them.)
To assist my filmscanning, I still use only one example
regularly:
Open a DOS window, and type the drive letter for your CD-ROM
drive. Type "DIR /s >C:\files.txt". This put
>But the biggest
> problem area in *both* media is where the dynamic range is
>wide, e.g. in
> But seriously, how are other users handling this
problem?-
Not very well, in general, myself. I frequently resort to
burning in highlights and/or dodging shadows using
PaintShopPro's 'smart edge se
ROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2001 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: filmscanners: Need feedback on VueScan Idea
> Unfortunately I've never seen that one.
>
> Maris
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Alan Tyson" <[EMAIL PROTE
- Original Message -
From: shAf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2001 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: filmscanners: Need feedback on VueScan Idea
> Myself, I think I'd have a problem with not seeing the
controls
> I'm presently using while I acquire subse
I should be happy to have a single group of tabs, provided
that you don't use the dreadful standard MS tab system,
where the tabs rotate apparently at random, so that I can't
remember which ones I've just looked at.
PS: I still remember & love 'Vuescan Classic' where all
settings were visible on
I have a Scanwit 2720s, with which I am well pleased. It's
much the best budget scanner, by all accounts.
However, even with Ed Hamrick's Vuescan (a nearly essential
$40 accessory for most scanners) you can exert only limited
control over its initial output. You'll get its own
automatic exposure
- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: filmscanners: File sizes, file formats, etc.
for printing 8.5 x 11and 13...
> If you save in JPEG once, re-open to work on it once, and
then save it as a
> TIFF,
Thanks, Arthur, for a clear exposition, as usual.
So the answer to Marvin's question 1 part 2 is...
"Use the resolution you got from the scanner, and let the
printer driver do the work."
This is what I've always done myself with my 2700ppi
scanner. I can't tell the difference in a print from
re
A couple of times a while back I had actually seen Ed's web
page updated to a new version number, but still got the old
version when I clicked the link. Both were correct at the
time so far as Ed was concerned. I think maybe some of the
servers between Ed & me had been caching & occasionally
updat
I made a stupid mistake today that made me think the
focusing mechanism on my 1-year-old Scanwit had failed.
When trying to scan frame 3 of a strip of negatives, Vuescan
just kept on saying it was busy, indefinitely, and there was
no sign of the expected focusing step. Miraphoto (the
Acer-supplie
> Ah, yes. I think PSP may also read a 48bit uncompressed
> file? I'll have to try it. I'll try raising the issue
> with JASC.
Yes it does (see my message of 13:33 GMT 6Feb).
Ed has now explained why PSP can't read his compressed
48-bit ones as opposed to Adobe's allegedly compressed but
lar
>All glasses strongly absorb UV radiation
Oh good. That's what I was trying to tell people. Thanks.
We could also mention the effect of path length, i.e., a
window pane vs a 14-element lens.
Alan T
- Original Message -
From: Shough, Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent
Sorry, I should have been more specific and explicit. The
context of the discussion was loss of high-bit colour
information (or not) started by someone who expected a 50MB
tif and got a 7MB jpeg. We then wandered off into jpeg
compression viewers.
PSP7 will not read the compressed 48-bit tif file
shAf already mentioned that he had JPEG software that
allowed him to preview & compare uncompressed and compressed
images.
Perhaps it's worth mentioning that PaintShopPro7 also has an
excellent JPEG compression magnifying preview facility, when
you choose "File..| Save as..| jpg...| Options...| R
UV is dangerous through breaking chemical bonds directly; IR
is dangerous through cooking (breaking chemical bonds by
heating as in a grill or a toaster). The sun's radiant
energy has lots and lots of both. Your retinal heat
receptors (if any) won't be quick enough to prevent damage
if you put a
Infrared is also a serious, if not worse, hazard. Glass is
fairly transparent to it, as shown by greenhouses, passive
solar panels, the burning of holes with magnifying glasses,
and the feasibility of IR photography with ordinary lenses.
Most glasses absorb UV much more strongly than IR. Most of
Tom,
A while back, I went through all the monitor calibration
stuff on several different sites and found it very easy to
make things much worse.
Then I found that the best match between my Taxan Ergovision
735TCO99 monitor and HP710C printer (using Vuescan and
PaintShopPro7 or Photoshop 5LE, mos
Michael,
For those of us working at 2700dpi
When you've got a final image with which you're really
happy, I find Ed Hamrick's choice of "90% jpeg quality" or
my own choice of "15% compression" in PaintShopPro to be
barely distinguishable at a pixel level from the original.
This typically sa
Roman said...
>Unless we can get a decent copy directly onto
> a photographic paper.
I think he's hit the nail on the head there. The output
stage is the key.
All of us on this list know the hassles to be suffered
plugging gadgets into our computers and getting satisfactory
photographic out
This is what our esteemed Tony's web site said when I saved
it last on 11th October
>>PhotoCD is a cross-platform format, and film sizes from
APS to 5x4" may be scanned in a variety of resolutions from
128 x 192 pixels (Base/16) to 2048 x 3072 (16 Base). A
higher resolution and more tightly c
I've a lot to say about this. Those here last June may
remember an 'animated discussion' . I've mailed Michael &
Tim off-list. If anyone else is interested drop me a private
message.
Alan T
- Original Message -
From: Michael Wilkinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Mon
>so the question is... How do you
>accurately register multiple scans of different negs of the
>same subject?
I have tried this only when matching the overlaps of
panoramic shots when I *have* moved the camera, on a tripod
pan head. I haven't found it too difficult myself to match
the edges of sh
Paint Shop Pro 7, and probably other programs, have
'geometric effects' which will allow you to stretch the
image in one dimension. In PSP7 it's called horizontal and
vertical perspective.
I've used it successfully when I photographed a painting
propped against a wall, and stupidly failed to get
> One small addition..If you run the shower a short time
before you dry
> your film, the dust seems to get stuck down, and you have
even less of a
> problem,
I remember seeing this suggested many years ago, and it did
seem to work for my film drying operations. I had little
trouble with negs
"Liberty is precious; so precious it must be rationed."
[Bakunin (a Russian revolutionary)]
This seems a good motto for OT posters and list
administrators.
Alan T
- Original Message -
From: Arthur Entlich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 24,
> stir in about an
> ounce of boiling water from a measuring cup every 30-60
seconds,
> as needed. Crude but fairly effective. I can keep the
temperature
> between 99.5 and 100.5 for three minutes without
difficulty.
Thanks very much for the hints & info. That's the sort of
thing I did fo
I've been considering doing my own E6 processing for some
time, for all the reasons mentioned in this thread. I did my
own E6 for many years, using several different chemistries,
and rudimentary equipment, including several thermometers.
I'm a retired chemist, so I could do with the experimental
p
And we should also, perhaps, remember that different
persons' colour perceptions (Mk1 eyeball + brain software)
may differ.
For example, my own blue sensitivity or perception clearly
differs from the rest of family, because they are wont to
say, on nice sunny days, "look at that beautiful blue la
> But do some of you have the idea to switch to digital for
everyday
> photography? That would seem strange to me.
Yes, I do, as and when I can afford digital 3600x2400 pixel
frames, as I get from my scanner (probably in a decade or
so), because of..
1. immediacy of seeing a preview, so I can ta
Alan,
Don't you find that the colour balance is markedly altered
when you crop the preview and then scan it? I find that my
principal subject, somewhere inside the frame, is often more
colourful than its surroundings.
I find this on my own Scanwit. For this reason I alter the
'Crop|Buffer%' stri
Pete,
Do you reckon this method will work even when, as on the
Scanwit, the exposure given by the scanner for each raw scan
will vary from frame to frame?
If I want to try this method, should I work on each of the
R,G,B histograms separately, and set the B & W points to the
same value, or what?
Mike,
I too am very happy with my Scanwit 2720S, regard it as
excellent value for money, and am delighted with its
results.
We should, however, mention to prospective purchasers that
it gives its own automatic exposure, calculated for the
whole frame, whether you want it or not. For this reason,
Maybe soaking in water to assist peeling of misplaced
labels, followed by slow & gentle drying, wouldn't do any
harm. Has anyone tried it?
Alan T
- Original Message -
From: Dieder Bylsma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Alan Tyson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, D
Tim,
You could always peel off the label and try again, if a
disk doesn't read correctly. Surely an imbalance will show
immediately. Everyone should test their CD-Rs after writing
them, preferably in another drive. That 's a different issue
from the longevity of the data.
Have your conservation
Michael,
All this stuff about CD-R durability is speculation at the
moment, sometimes well-informed, and sometimes ill-informed.
I'd give your support person's views a lot of weight if I
knew he'd properly researched the field, and had some data
or reasoning to back his judgement (rather than he
Excellent summary info, thanks very much.
I still think the attenuation of visible & UV through the
top reflective layer will be enormous, so as to render it
insignificant relative to the other side.
In summer '99, for the total eclipse, I experimented with
viewing the sun through CDs, and found
Dear Jerry,
It would be fascinating to see the list, but even more
interesting to read the details of the results. I assume the
article's only available in Dutch, is it?
I hope they used very big sample sizes. I should expect the
failure rates to be so low as to need samples of hundreds
per bran
Suggestions for a gentle (and low cost) introduction to film
scanning...
While your dad learns about digital imaging, any old flatbed
will do, on which he should scan his old prints (6x4 or
bigger) to start with, and make some enlargements. He's
likely to be pleased with the results, unless he's
I too am a happy Scanwit user, and before that I used to
scan 6x4 enprints on a flatbed. On scanning prints on the
flatbed, I found that I could see an improvement on altering
scanner resolution from 300 to 400 pixels/inch, but none
beyond that.
Your 2550x3720 scan on a 7x10 print is about 360 p
I don't think I've made myself clear.
I *think* they may be identifying relatively underexposed
*regions* & boosting the (printed) brightness locally in
just those areas of the image, giving the same effect as
wet-chemical-age dodging. Art suggested a means of doing
this in his reply to my messag
> This technique is totally unnecessary with scanning Alan.
> It doesn't do anything that you can't do better with the
curves or
> levels in Photoshop.
Yes, true, if it's a simple adjustment mask across the whole
image, but if it operates selectively on patches (cleverly
identified somehow) of pr
labour with selection tools, and selective histogram
adjustments.
What do all you experts out there think?
Alan Tyson
Every few months I am persuaded to try again to calibrate my
monitor, using the various tools from an assortment of
websites.
My monitor (Taxan Ergovision 735 TCO99) has software to
adjust its RGB curves individually to get the various
dithering patterns to match. The results from the various
too
o try asking him if he has a solution
for your problem ([EMAIL PROTECTED]).
Good luck,
Alan Tyson
- Original Message -
From: PC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2000 7:23 PM
Subject: filmscanners: Distribution SW
> I'm looking for a way to place images on a CD ROM along
with whatever
> else would be needed
Tony,
Years ago, when I and my pals were on CIX, ISTR a
concise dictionary of all the common and many rare mailing
list acronyms. You haven't seen it anywhere lately, have
you?
I fear this ancient language may have become extinct like
Anglo-Saxon and Latin, pushed out by modernisms such as
"USB"
Come on! Tell us how you came to microwave a print by
accident. You didn't use it to oven wrap the neighbour's
cat, did you?
Alan T
- Original Message -
From: jeremy spence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: questions
> I a
Jerry,
I wasn't aware that the Scanwit was particularly bad at
registration, as I found multiscanning worked well on the
few occasions I tried it. I think I remember someone here
6-9 months ago saying it was quite good.
Inspired by your message, I just tried it again with single
scans before and
Collin,
The crop tool and selection tool in Paint Shop Pro display
the aspect ratio on the status bar as you drag the box or
its edges. They also show the coordinates of top left and
bottom right, and the selected pixel dimensions.
I've just upgraded from PSP version 5 to v7, which has a
full se
I used Neato labels, applied with the supplied polycarbonate
centring device, on over a hundred CDRs sent in 1997-99 to
a wide range of users. All them will have been used at least
once . No-one has complained about unplayable disks, and
this doesn't surprise me.
It was difficult or impossible t
Yes, but it seems to me the useful output will be
*combinations* of subject type, film, exposure, processing,
and scanner that have been demonstrated to give good
results.
Extrapolating from those to different combinations will be
rather difficult.
This is normal in the world of R&D. Almost no-o
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