And following that BINGO! For the "fluency overboarders": Just because
comprehension most often influences fluency, does not mean that fluency
CAUSES comprehension. That little break in logic has enormous consequence
when we don't get it!
BINGO! Comprehension influences fluency! Get the ki
Renee - I think our profession is in kind of a mood, and justifiably so.
It's as though we've all taken leave of our senses -- well, I mean the
decision-makers, I guess, not us. But when you see things like SRA's
corrective reading try to teach vocabulary words such as amblng in "call and
res
Except it may not be slow and halting when they read silently.
Just a thought.
Elisa Waingort
Calgary, Canada
Are we really doing children a favor and ignoring their slow, halting, labored
reading in the primary grades because they seem to be understanding what they
read? Just thinking out lou
Well said! Wish more "fluency biggies" were listening!
Original Message Follows
From: "RASINSKI, TIMOTHY" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: "Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email
Group"
To: "Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email
Group"
Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated
Gayla,
I also am interested...could you let me know as well? I teach second grade.
Thank you,
Janice
Loyd or Gayla King <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You said:
> I'm really having difficulty with how to assign grades in reading workshop.
> Can someone help me with that? I want to switch co
Yes I absolutely agree Lori. My concern is that slow, halting, and clearly
laborious reading is fine as long as the child understands what he or she
reads. In my opinion, and I think you agree, such reading is a concern that
needs to be addressed. Modeling reading, wide reading, and aut
Okay, I had this little guy who could pronounce every word, attended to
punctuation in a nominal sense and according to DIBELS, he was a top-notch
little reader. Think again. He read like Howard Coselle (sp??), very
monotone, and nothing his voice ever gave way to any humor or excitement or
tensi
But Tim, the point of miscue is to work with the child to address those
issues which are impacting meaning and certainly think that halting heading
behaviors, unnecessary rereading and even over-correcting can certainly be
impacting oral fluency. Again, is it wide and successful reading that
build
Elaine
You raise some very good points here. I teach Diagnosis of Reading Problems
part time at a local university as well as work as a reading specialist in my
elementary school. I always say to my principal and to my graduate students
that it is crucial that we know who is "setting the b
I have one more thought that's been bubbling around in my head. It goes
along with what you say here, Beverlee and maybe expands on it a
little. In addition to the messages we send kids by timing them,
regardless of what WE are thinking, I'm wondering about the whole idea
of words per minut
On 7/8/07 2:27 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
I also have been reading an IRA publication called Why Johnny Couldn't
> Read---and How He Learned. The author studied successful adults who struggled
> with
> reading in school but read and comprehend well as adults. Inter
Pat, you wrote "unless he was reading something
> very high interest "---I think that that is the
avenue to getting kids to read more---read something
that they are interested in---and high interst
material is available at all levels. We need to get
administrators to buy into buying a variety of
I agree with you whole heartedly Elaine. I think fluency is best taught
by having kids listen to good fluent models and then giving them the
chance to practice under the guidance of a teacher. The practice should
be aimed at reading with expression and meaning and should include
materials that ar
I am not saying that kids who read laboriously are not
hindered by the slow, word by word reading. I think where we would
diverge in our approaches is I would say, model, allow the kid to do
lots of reading but do NOT let the child for one second think it is
about speed and even speed and intonati
I think I agree with Tim on this...I am thinking about how important it is
for students to actually read a lot to improve. Kids who read very slowly
actually read less. Think about it...you know the kid who earnestly sits down
to
read along with the class and get very tired of being the la
You said:
I'm really having difficulty with how to assign grades in reading workshop.
Can someone help me with that? I want to switch completely over to reading
workshop this year and toss my basal. Also, I'm personally struggling with
giving E's to students who are reading two grade levels be
Elaine: Here is the reference to one study with high school kids:
Rasinski, T., Padak, N., McKeon, C., Krug,-Wilfong, L., Friedauer, J., & Heim,
P. (2005) Is Reading Fluency a Key for Successful High School Reading?
Journal of Adolescent and Adult Literacy, 49, 22-27.
Although the corre
Francie,
i had a similar group one summer throw in some were ELL students. We used
readers theater scripts and were able to work on all the problems you
mentioned.
The best part was that the kids like it so they worked really hard to give
their best performance.
Sue
I applaud the child who reads haltingly in grades 2, 3, 4, 5 and comprehends
well. However, if that student is still reading haltingly in the middle and
high school grades it is going to catch up with him/her.A few years ago I
worked with 9th graders in Chicago, more than a few of whom were
And I saw similar results presented by Debbie Goodman this past week at
Hofstra University. Debbie makes the point that for some children whom we
may label as 'frustrated', the frustration may lie with the teacher. I
admit, this guy was utterly painful to listen to and yet his grasp of a
challen
I know you didn't write this to me, but I am butting in,
These students are have completed three to four years of Reading First. That
is the problem. There is no writing stressed in RF.
I totally understand where you are coming from. I think you are absolutely
got them on the right track. They
Dear Tim,
I teach middle school Basic Skills for language arts. Last week, I had the
opportunity to attend the Columbia Teacher's College Summer Institute for
Reading. I took a mini-session on fluency with Kylene Beers. She suggested
that repeated readings of a short text(3 times)each day would
Nancy
I have seen kids like this...I wonder how much schema he had for this
reading? I am privileged to teach kids in school with lots of parent support
and
the kids come with lots of school-type background knowledge. Some of these kids
comprehend things that they struggle through simply
Martha
All of the above! I chose from several genres to meet our state standards.
Jennifer
In a message dated 7/8/2007 2:06:14 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I'm wondering what texts you used - fiction, nonfiction, poetry, etc.?
***
I may be speaking out of ignorance, here. But, maybe I need a specific
definition of "fluency." In the measured definitions of DRA, HM, or any
other testing, I see it as speed. When you time something, speed is a
factor. However, as I think about it, to be fluent in speaking a foreign
language,
I think that we can understand comprehension at a word level, a sentence
level, a paragraph level and then at the chapter or whole text level. I have
seen lots of kids who know when they make word rec errors and can correct them
using meaning and syntax at the sentence level, but who can't
Francie,
I am teaching summer school and have a group of 28
second graders who have the following problems:
--inattentive to print--not looking at pictures and
at initial and final letters, thereby they read
whatever or skip a word (some are reversal) they have
little sense of monitoring their re
I have never appreciated the two 1-minute tests we must do every 6 weeks
with the fifth grade Open Court program. We now have permission to skip the
tests for those students reading 145 wpm or more.
I do have to agree with Tim about the importance of fluency and good
intonation for comprehension
>
> Question: Is it significant that, at least in this quote, he used the
> word
> "accuracy" rather than "fluency"? Seems to me that reading with
> feeling/intonation is a different thing than accuracy -- related, but
> different (same for speed, as well). What does the research -- Tim's
> a
Hello Elaine and Tim,
Regarding Elaine's quote from Steven Stahl "“Oral reading accuracy is
related to comprehension only in first and second grades with the
correlations in third grade and beyond falling to near zero” (p. 190)."
Question: Is it significant that, at least in this quote, he used
In a message dated 7/8/2007 11:24:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Zero correlation between fluency and comprehension? When a student reads
fluently, and I'm not talking about speed, you know they get it. Listen to a
student who doesn't read fluently, it's painful be
Dear Renee (who's in kind of a mood)-- I'm smiling as I write that:
You said,
"Frankly, I don't think we need "research" to back up everything we say
and I'm tired of having my own classroom observations and experience
tossed aside because some obscure "research" especially that
research whic
Kimberlee ...
the wpm part of the DRA2 worries me for the same reason
-Original Message-
From: Renee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Mosaic: A Reading Comprehension Strategies Email Group
Sent: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 1:36 pm
Subject: Re: [MOSAIC] Repeated Readings for Fluency - Question for T
Two years ago, I worked with a fourth grade class of struggling readers who
where from 6 months to 3 years below grade level at the start of the year.
(Let it be said here, the regular classroom teacher was also struggling and on
an assistance plan. Part of my job was to help him devel
I sent this out late Friday night but I haven't seen it on the list so if
you already received it please disregard this resend.- Ginger
+++
Just a reminder that our book talk on Strategies That Work is set to begin
on Monday, July 16 and run through August 13. Get your book and s
On 7/8/07 10:07 AM, "kimberlee hannan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't have all the research to back me up. I just have several years'
> experience. Experience tells me that with most kids: When a kid
> understands what he/she is reading, fluency shows it. I use myself as an
> example.
On Jul 8, 2007, at 10:07 AM, kimberlee hannan wrote:
> I don't have all the research to back me up. I just have several
> years'
> experience. Experience tells me that with most kids: When a kid
> understands what he/she is reading, fluency shows it. I use myself as
> an
> example. I see f
Alright, Tim and Elaine...I am going to be brave and post a few thoughts
here. I am a fan of both of you...and I can see more than a little common
ground. Somewhere, I read that a true definition of fluency INCLUDES
comprehension.
If we say a fluent reader must also need to comprehend, th
I don't have all the research to back me up. I just have several years'
experience. Experience tells me that with most kids: When a kid
understands what he/she is reading, fluency shows it. I use myself as an
example. I see fluency as a performance. I have always told my kids I was a
frustrate
BINGO! Comprehension influences fluency! Get the kids to comprehend, and you
will hear it!
elaine garan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: . . . And again, as you've pointed
out, correlation is not causation and therefore, it is entirely possible and
maybe even likely, that comprehension is influenci
Hi Tim,
I don´t think anyone is saying that fluency is worthless. I think the question
was about a child who can read silently with comprehension but reads haltingly
aloud. I still believe that there is no cause to worry in this case. To me,
it´s the same issue that comes up when people say t
Tim,
After reading innumerable posts on this and other sites about the various
opinions out there about fluency, I've come to the conclusion that the concerns
are more about instructional practices and academic decisions that are made
based on a fluency score. In my opinion there are administr
I'm really having difficulty with how to assign grades in reading workshop.
Can someone help me with that? I want to switch completely over to reading
workshop this year and toss my basal. Also, I'm personally struggling with
giving E's to students who are reading two grade levels below where
> Those quotes are correct. I think the more recent research, though, is
> moving us forward. We have found correlations between .50 - .60
> between
> fluency and comprehension for older students.Not huge, but not
> insignificant either
Tim. I'd love to see the studies you refer to. And ag
Elaine: Not arguing at all -- I think it is important to hear how
others think about things and then to write in response. For me, the
writing helps me articulate and clarify my own thinking on things. I
appreciate your comments very much Elaine, as well as everyone else who
has written.
Ti
Those quotes are correct. I think the more recent research, though, is
moving us forward. We have found correlations between .50 - .60 between
fluency and comprehension for older students.Not huge, but not
insignificant either.
Fluency instruction should not be aimed to get kids thinking abo
>
> I am going to have to respectfully disagree with the comment that there
> is a zero correlation between fluency and comprehension beyond first
> grade. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that fluency is a huge
> concern with our struggling readers through high school. luency
Ok, here are
Thanks, Tim-- I'm glad we're not arguing!!! That's the tricky thing
about discussions. It's hard to articulate ideas that may not totally
converge with those of others without sounding confrontational
especially to those you respect. So I'm grateful for this post and for
pointing out the pl
Elaine,
I agree completely. So many of the activities that are suggested for
addressing fluency as simply good teaching, good language play--and with the
exception of repeated readings with a timer in hand--have been part of
effective classroom practice for a long time. That is, until NCLB and
s
I agree with you whole heartedly Elaine. I think fluency is best taught
by having kids listen to good fluent models and then giving them the
chance to practice under the guidance of a teacher. The practice should
be aimed at reading with expression and meaning and should include
materials that ar
Thanks for this interesting discussion, Tim. I will now respectfully,
find the quote about how the correlation between fluency and
comprhension falls to near zero after the very beginning stages of
reading. It is in my book. It is cited in Stahl's chapter in the NRP
and I will reformat it a
> Your third paragraph sounds so sensible to me. I've had a gut feeling
> recently that fluency is the present education craze, but a passing
> phase. It is an easy improvement to be able to measure, but does it
> actually develop comprehension skills. Thanks for your knowledgeable
> input.
> Z
I am going to jump in and share my own thoughts. I agree that fluency
may be a craze, and may be passing phase, especially if it is nothing
more than teaching kids to read fast and faster.
However, reading fluency and comprehension are strongly connected. When
children read words automatically
I was privileged and honored to visit the WOO and meet Steve Orel. There are
few people in this world who embody the courage and justice that Steve had.
The following is from the ARN list.
Nancy Creech
Gloria Pipkin, coordinator of the Florida Coalition for Assessment
Reform, posted the
Your third paragraph sounds so sensible to me. I've had a gut feeling
recently that fluency is the present education craze, but a passing
phase. It is an easy improvement to be able to measure, but does it
actually develop comprehension skills. Thanks for your knowledgeable
input.
Zoe
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