RE: (313) Croydon Is New Detroit
I think the article makes a number of useful comparisons but it wasn't intended to be taken too seriously. I find the various directions dubstep and UK house have taken extremely interesting though. Dubstep was so easily dismissed and pigeonholed as one dimensional and not particularly innovative but it has broadened and diversified in so many surprising directions. Also, many different genres and subgenres in the UK seem to have converged and ended up sounding very similar which I think ought to be noticed. Rob Taylor VT Librarian x8599 Hatch Desk x1088 VT Library Users' Guide -Original Message- From: Tristan Watkins [mailto:phonop...@googlemail.com] Sent: 11 March 2010 00:35 To: kent williams Cc: list 313 Subject: Re: (313) Croydon Is New Detroit On 10/03/2010 22:23, kent williams wrote: > I think the article makes some good points but mostly in the context > of the UK, where musical sub-genres are written about as though they > were stars in their own right. > > The Detroit attitude is, I'd hope, more eclectic, and the musicians I > talk to think more in terms of good or bad than this genre or that > genre. So I can talk with Alan Oldham about Creation Records Shoegazer > bands, and with Shake about Cooly G. The way I read it, he was saying that eclecticism and perpetual reinvention is precisely what makes dubstep (so far) like the early days of Detroit techno - that it is evolving very quickly, pulling in influences from all over the shop and is difficult to pin down. I think that's a fair point. If you listen to a lot of the best dubstep producers' DJ sets you'll find influences from all over the last 25 years and within the various styles of dubstep. Also, I think there's a misperception that it's just kids making this stuff. Untold has been producing since '93 according to this RA article: http://www.residentadvisor.net/feature.aspx?1105 Not that I think the comparison can stretch for miles or that anyone should take it out of context. Ultimately, I'm just getting a bit irritated with people making more out of it than it is or of writing it off altogether. Whether it's to everyone's taste is one thing but I would hope it's evident that this isn't narrow or purely derivative. In my mind it's one of the more interesting things to happen in a long time precisely because it's not as narrow and codified as any of the previous big electronic music trends. It's almost the complete opposite. Tristan # Note: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Channel Four Television Corporation unless specifically stated. This email and any files transmitted are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify postmas...@channel4.co.uk Thank You. Channel Four Television Corporation, created by statute under English law, is at 124 Horseferry Road, London, SW1P 2TX . 4 Ventures Limited (Company No. 04106849), incorporated in England and Wales has its registered office at 124 Horseferry Road, London SW1P 2TX. VAT no: GB 626475817 #
Re: (313) Croydon Is New Detroit
I know I've commented on this before, and not to be snarky, but how does everyone feel about techno-electronic journalism these days? as an undergrad at the Univ of Chicago, I was exposed to and guilty of ridiculous language, metaphors, and concept mashing, but about the only legible writing I find is on Kent's blog and infinite state machine. Does everyone have to sound like an NYU grad student to be allowed to write about urban electronic music scenes? Pardon my persistent tone of criticism, I also have a glass of wine in me. Also, I don't necessarily disagree with all the author's points. I'm just tired of a certain style of electronic music content generation and re-generation by the brooklyn rastafarian class (where I live). Aside from all this, I'm certainly in seeking of new stimulation and activity, but not seeking enough to devote myself to set time aside and do something about it. Now where's my glass of scotch. On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 4:44 PM, Robert Taylor wrote: > http://dontpaniconline.com/magazine/croydon-the-new-detroit > > Discuss. > > Heheheheheh. > # > Note: > > Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily > represent > those of Channel Four Television Corporation unless specifically stated. This > email > and any files transmitted are confidential and intended solely for the use of > the > individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this > email in > error, please notify postmas...@channel4.co.uk > > Thank You. > > Channel Four Television Corporation, created by statute under English law, is > at 124 Horseferry Road, London, SW1P 2TX . > > 4 Ventures Limited (Company No. 04106849), incorporated in England and Wales > has its registered office at 124 Horseferry Road, London SW1P 2TX. > > VAT no: GB 626475817 > > # >
Re: (313) Croydon Is New Detroit - Addendum
On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 02:19, Aaron-Carl wrote: > Before this gets out of hand, let me say this: Personally, I have no qualms > about Dubstep. My response was not to be misconstrued as a "bash dubstep" > post. HOWEVER, the part that really bothered me (and YES, I'm sensitive > about it) is when someone classified it as "The New Detroit." > > Eclecticism and perpetual reinvention? Absolutely. In fact, that's one of > the reasons why I like dubstep. But here's something I'd like for you to > acknowledge. People remember HEADLINES. Writers are basically taught to > engage their readers with a powerful HEADLINE. And as a Detroit artist, > that particular headline spoke volumes to ME. It said, in so many words, > "Detroit is dead. Out with the old, in with the new..." And I guarantee > you I'm not the ONLY Detroit artist who read it that way. > > Mind you, I could've simply dismissed the headline. But that's only > worsening the problem. I have no problem with evolution -- in fact, it's > how I SURVIVE. But SOMEBODY needed to step up and say to those who might > see exactly what I saw in that headline, "WE ARE STILL HERE." > > Detroit already has a bad reputation, to begin with. Well then that fits, because Croydon, which is the new Detroit, is just the right place to get stabbed! D. > From the "joke of a > mayor" we used to have, to having the "dumbest kids in the nation," the LAST > thing we need is somebody saying to a new generation of music listeners that > Croydon -- or anywhere else -- is the "New Detroit." > > A better headline could've compared Croydon's evolution to Detroit. But > unlike what a lot of popular articles suggest, Detroit is NOT an adjective. > Detroit is HOME. And when someone or something threatens YOUR home, it's > only natural that you defend it... > > Aaron-Carl > > > > On 3/10/2010 7:49 PM, Jeffrey J Davis wrote: >> >> Cool that Shake posted a comment to the article acknowledging the funk. >> >> thanks, >> >> Jeffrey J. Davis >> President& COO, AGY >> fon: +1.218.8332847 (21883DAVIS) >> fax: +1.803.643.4085 >> cel: +86.158.0184.9459 >> jeff.da...@agy.com / jeffrey.james.da...@gmail.com >> jeffrey.james.davis JeffreyJDavis >> >> On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 7:35 PM, Tristan Watkins >> wrote: >> >>> >>> On 10/03/2010 22:23, kent williams wrote: >>> I think the article makes some good points but mostly in the context of the UK, where musical sub-genres are written about as though they were stars in their own right. The Detroit attitude is, I'd hope, more eclectic, and the musicians I talk to think more in terms of good or bad than this genre or that genre. So I can talk with Alan Oldham about Creation Records Shoegazer bands, and with Shake about Cooly G. >>> >>> The way I read it, he was saying that eclecticism and perpetual >>> reinvention is precisely what makes dubstep (so far) like the early days of >>> Detroit techno - that it is evolving very quickly, pulling in influences >>> from all over the shop and is difficult to pin down. I think that's a fair >>> point. If you listen to a lot of the best dubstep producers' DJ sets you'll >>> find influences from all over the last 25 years and within the various >>> styles of dubstep. >>> >>> Also, I think there's a misperception that it's just kids making this >>> stuff. Untold has been producing since '93 according to this RA article: >>> http://www.residentadvisor.net/feature.aspx?1105 >>> >>> Not that I think the comparison can stretch for miles or that anyone >>> should take it out of context. >>> >>> Ultimately, I'm just getting a bit irritated with people making more out >>> of it than it is or of writing it off altogether. Whether it's to everyone's >>> taste is one thing but I would hope it's evident that this isn't narrow or >>> purely derivative. In my mind it's one of the more interesting things to >>> happen in a long time precisely because it's not as narrow and codified as >>> any of the previous big electronic music trends. It's almost the complete >>> opposite. >>> >>> Tristan >>> >> >> > > > -- > Aaron-Carl > > web: http://aaroncarl.com > facebook: http://facebook.com/aaroncarl313 > twitter: http://twitter.com/aaroncarl > myspace: http://myspace.com/aaroncarl > >
Re: (313) Croydon Is New Detroit - Addendum
Both British Music Press and a lot of UK artists namecheck Detroit as shorthand -- mentioning Detroit means you know your history, you're 'down,' you have some 'soul,' or at least you appreciate it. It goes back to pre-Acid House times, with the Northern Soul movement. On the one hand, soul is soul, and Detroit has a lot of it, and it has worldwide appeal. On the other hand, anyone can mumble "Detroit innit" and take credit for being more down 1than they deserve. I'm a tourist in Detroit, but I've had my car window bashed in downtown in Detroit while I was at a Planet E party, so that has to count for something ;-)
Re: (313) Croydon Is New Detroit - Addendum
Before this gets out of hand, let me say this: Personally, I have no qualms about Dubstep. My response was not to be misconstrued as a "bash dubstep" post. HOWEVER, the part that really bothered me (and YES, I'm sensitive about it) is when someone classified it as "The New Detroit." Eclecticism and perpetual reinvention? Absolutely. In fact, that's one of the reasons why I like dubstep. But here's something I'd like for you to acknowledge. People remember HEADLINES. Writers are basically taught to engage their readers with a powerful HEADLINE. And as a Detroit artist, that particular headline spoke volumes to ME. It said, in so many words, "Detroit is dead. Out with the old, in with the new..." And I guarantee you I'm not the ONLY Detroit artist who read it that way. Mind you, I could've simply dismissed the headline. But that's only worsening the problem. I have no problem with evolution -- in fact, it's how I SURVIVE. But SOMEBODY needed to step up and say to those who might see exactly what I saw in that headline, "WE ARE STILL HERE." Detroit already has a bad reputation, to begin with. From the "joke of a mayor" we used to have, to having the "dumbest kids in the nation," the LAST thing we need is somebody saying to a new generation of music listeners that Croydon -- or anywhere else -- is the "New Detroit." A better headline could've compared Croydon's evolution to Detroit. But unlike what a lot of popular articles suggest, Detroit is NOT an adjective. Detroit is HOME. And when someone or something threatens YOUR home, it's only natural that you defend it... Aaron-Carl All fair points, and it must get irritating watching people trade on Detroit's reputation without ever having lived there. As you say, it's the headline that's irritating and I guess I'm just numb to that these days, especially in music journalism, but I totally can see why you'd want to speak up about it. Cheers, Tristan
Re: (313) Croydon Is New Detroit - Addendum
Before this gets out of hand, let me say this: Personally, I have no qualms about Dubstep. My response was not to be misconstrued as a "bash dubstep" post. HOWEVER, the part that really bothered me (and YES, I'm sensitive about it) is when someone classified it as "The New Detroit." Eclecticism and perpetual reinvention? Absolutely. In fact, that's one of the reasons why I like dubstep. But here's something I'd like for you to acknowledge. People remember HEADLINES. Writers are basically taught to engage their readers with a powerful HEADLINE. And as a Detroit artist, that particular headline spoke volumes to ME. It said, in so many words, "Detroit is dead. Out with the old, in with the new..." And I guarantee you I'm not the ONLY Detroit artist who read it that way. Mind you, I could've simply dismissed the headline. But that's only worsening the problem. I have no problem with evolution -- in fact, it's how I SURVIVE. But SOMEBODY needed to step up and say to those who might see exactly what I saw in that headline, "WE ARE STILL HERE." Detroit already has a bad reputation, to begin with. From the "joke of a mayor" we used to have, to having the "dumbest kids in the nation," the LAST thing we need is somebody saying to a new generation of music listeners that Croydon -- or anywhere else -- is the "New Detroit." A better headline could've compared Croydon's evolution to Detroit. But unlike what a lot of popular articles suggest, Detroit is NOT an adjective. Detroit is HOME. And when someone or something threatens YOUR home, it's only natural that you defend it... Aaron-Carl On 3/10/2010 7:49 PM, Jeffrey J Davis wrote: Cool that Shake posted a comment to the article acknowledging the funk. thanks, Jeffrey J. Davis President& COO, AGY fon: +1.218.8332847 (21883DAVIS) fax: +1.803.643.4085 cel: +86.158.0184.9459 jeff.da...@agy.com / jeffrey.james.da...@gmail.com jeffrey.james.davis JeffreyJDavis On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 7:35 PM, Tristan Watkins wrote: On 10/03/2010 22:23, kent williams wrote: I think the article makes some good points but mostly in the context of the UK, where musical sub-genres are written about as though they were stars in their own right. The Detroit attitude is, I'd hope, more eclectic, and the musicians I talk to think more in terms of good or bad than this genre or that genre. So I can talk with Alan Oldham about Creation Records Shoegazer bands, and with Shake about Cooly G. The way I read it, he was saying that eclecticism and perpetual reinvention is precisely what makes dubstep (so far) like the early days of Detroit techno - that it is evolving very quickly, pulling in influences from all over the shop and is difficult to pin down. I think that's a fair point. If you listen to a lot of the best dubstep producers' DJ sets you'll find influences from all over the last 25 years and within the various styles of dubstep. Also, I think there's a misperception that it's just kids making this stuff. Untold has been producing since '93 according to this RA article: http://www.residentadvisor.net/feature.aspx?1105 Not that I think the comparison can stretch for miles or that anyone should take it out of context. Ultimately, I'm just getting a bit irritated with people making more out of it than it is or of writing it off altogether. Whether it's to everyone's taste is one thing but I would hope it's evident that this isn't narrow or purely derivative. In my mind it's one of the more interesting things to happen in a long time precisely because it's not as narrow and codified as any of the previous big electronic music trends. It's almost the complete opposite. Tristan -- Aaron-Carl web: http://aaroncarl.com facebook: http://facebook.com/aaroncarl313 twitter: http://twitter.com/aaroncarl myspace: http://myspace.com/aaroncarl
Re: (313) Croydon Is New Detroit
Cool that Shake posted a comment to the article acknowledging the funk. thanks, Jeffrey J. Davis President & COO, AGY fon: +1.218.8332847 (21883DAVIS) fax: +1.803.643.4085 cel: +86.158.0184.9459 jeff.da...@agy.com / jeffrey.james.da...@gmail.com jeffrey.james.davis JeffreyJDavis On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 7:35 PM, Tristan Watkins wrote: > > On 10/03/2010 22:23, kent williams wrote: >> >> I think the article makes some good points but mostly in the context >> of the UK, where musical sub-genres are written about as though they >> were stars in their own right. >> >> The Detroit attitude is, I'd hope, more eclectic, and the musicians I >> talk to think more in terms of good or bad than this genre or that >> genre. So I can talk with Alan Oldham about Creation Records Shoegazer >> bands, and with Shake about Cooly G. > > The way I read it, he was saying that eclecticism and perpetual reinvention > is precisely what makes dubstep (so far) like the early days of Detroit > techno - that it is evolving very quickly, pulling in influences from all > over the shop and is difficult to pin down. I think that's a fair point. If > you listen to a lot of the best dubstep producers' DJ sets you'll find > influences from all over the last 25 years and within the various styles of > dubstep. > > Also, I think there's a misperception that it's just kids making this stuff. > Untold has been producing since '93 according to this RA article: > http://www.residentadvisor.net/feature.aspx?1105 > > Not that I think the comparison can stretch for miles or that anyone should > take it out of context. > > Ultimately, I'm just getting a bit irritated with people making more out of > it than it is or of writing it off altogether. Whether it's to everyone's > taste is one thing but I would hope it's evident that this isn't narrow or > purely derivative. In my mind it's one of the more interesting things to > happen in a long time precisely because it's not as narrow and codified as > any of the previous big electronic music trends. It's almost the complete > opposite. > > Tristan
Re: (313) Croydon Is New Detroit
On 10/03/2010 22:23, kent williams wrote: I think the article makes some good points but mostly in the context of the UK, where musical sub-genres are written about as though they were stars in their own right. The Detroit attitude is, I'd hope, more eclectic, and the musicians I talk to think more in terms of good or bad than this genre or that genre. So I can talk with Alan Oldham about Creation Records Shoegazer bands, and with Shake about Cooly G. The way I read it, he was saying that eclecticism and perpetual reinvention is precisely what makes dubstep (so far) like the early days of Detroit techno - that it is evolving very quickly, pulling in influences from all over the shop and is difficult to pin down. I think that's a fair point. If you listen to a lot of the best dubstep producers' DJ sets you'll find influences from all over the last 25 years and within the various styles of dubstep. Also, I think there's a misperception that it's just kids making this stuff. Untold has been producing since '93 according to this RA article: http://www.residentadvisor.net/feature.aspx?1105 Not that I think the comparison can stretch for miles or that anyone should take it out of context. Ultimately, I'm just getting a bit irritated with people making more out of it than it is or of writing it off altogether. Whether it's to everyone's taste is one thing but I would hope it's evident that this isn't narrow or purely derivative. In my mind it's one of the more interesting things to happen in a long time precisely because it's not as narrow and codified as any of the previous big electronic music trends. It's almost the complete opposite. Tristan
Re: (313) Croydon Is New Detroit
The new Detroit? Really??? Try as they might, it's not happening. SURE, you can recruit our producers, DJs, etc. SURE, you can use the same tools we use. But you DO NOT, WILL NOT or CANNOT embody the spirit that makes us what WE are. So, whatever you want to call it, you can be "Detroit-ish," but you will NEVER EVER be DETROIT. And when the new "genre of the year" ultimately dies out, you best believe that WE WILL STILL BE HERE. Respectfully Real, Aaron-Carl On 3/10/2010 5:23 PM, kent williams wrote: I think the article makes some good points but mostly in the context of the UK, where musical sub-genres are written about as though they were stars in their own right. The Detroit attitude is, I'd hope, more eclectic, and the musicians I talk to think more in terms of good or bad than this genre or that genre. So I can talk with Alan Oldham about Creation Records Shoegazer bands, and with Shake about Cooly G. It may be the mark of the difference in size of the UK and American scene. Dance music probably has more fans in the UK than in the entire United States -- our big cities barely support one scene, let alone have new ones bubbling up from the underground every few weeks. On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Robert Taylor wrote: http://dontpaniconline.com/magazine/croydon-the-new-detroit Discuss. Heheheheheh. # Note: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Channel Four Television Corporation unless specifically stated. This email and any files transmitted are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify postmas...@channel4.co.uk Thank You. Channel Four Television Corporation, created by statute under English law, is at 124 Horseferry Road, London, SW1P 2TX . 4 Ventures Limited (Company No. 04106849), incorporated in England and Wales has its registered office at 124 Horseferry Road, London SW1P 2TX. VAT no: GB 626475817 # -- Aaron-Carl web: http://aaroncarl.com facebook: http://facebook.com/aaroncarl313 twitter: http://twitter.com/aaroncarl myspace: http://myspace.com/aaroncarl
Re: (313) Croydon Is New Detroit
I think the article makes some good points but mostly in the context of the UK, where musical sub-genres are written about as though they were stars in their own right. The Detroit attitude is, I'd hope, more eclectic, and the musicians I talk to think more in terms of good or bad than this genre or that genre. So I can talk with Alan Oldham about Creation Records Shoegazer bands, and with Shake about Cooly G. It may be the mark of the difference in size of the UK and American scene. Dance music probably has more fans in the UK than in the entire United States -- our big cities barely support one scene, let alone have new ones bubbling up from the underground every few weeks. On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Robert Taylor wrote: > http://dontpaniconline.com/magazine/croydon-the-new-detroit > > Discuss. > > Heheheheheh. > # > Note: > > Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily > represent > those of Channel Four Television Corporation unless specifically stated. This > email > and any files transmitted are confidential and intended solely for the use of > the > individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this > email in > error, please notify postmas...@channel4.co.uk > > Thank You. > > Channel Four Television Corporation, created by statute under English law, is > at 124 Horseferry Road, London, SW1P 2TX . > > 4 Ventures Limited (Company No. 04106849), incorporated in England and Wales > has its registered office at 124 Horseferry Road, London SW1P 2TX. > > VAT no: GB 626475817 > > # >
(313) Croydon Is New Detroit
http://dontpaniconline.com/magazine/croydon-the-new-detroit Discuss. Heheheheheh. # Note: Any views or opinions are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Channel Four Television Corporation unless specifically stated. This email and any files transmitted are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify postmas...@channel4.co.uk Thank You. Channel Four Television Corporation, created by statute under English law, is at 124 Horseferry Road, London, SW1P 2TX . 4 Ventures Limited (Company No. 04106849), incorporated in England and Wales has its registered office at 124 Horseferry Road, London SW1P 2TX. VAT no: GB 626475817 #
