Re: Re: (313) 'Techno' Music
I guess I agree with everybody... Isn't it sothat every emotion, feeling that you get listening to music or a specific song is created by the experience you had the first time you heared this song or something familair.. I 'v been collecting records since the '80the '90...i've seen the development of the elctronik music...but don't ask me about titles, names, the history...mzik is to feel..close your eyes discver the emotion it is giving youor not...? Detroit, Chicago, London, Ibiza, Amsterdam.each city or place has its own emotion and sub culturesbut we all share the same united love... In the beginning of the '90 I got infected by the vinyl virus...afraid of missing arecord each week.totally losing control of what I had or not have...thank GOD I woke up one dayhaving a bunch of kids...less record buying...three years of listening to my 'old' records..WOW what a beatyfull records do I have..each one of em is a JEWEL I agree Dr., its not the date, year or . its SOUL Mantronix...??..now you're talking I. remember dancing on mantronix 15 years agoSimpleSimon is one of those songs I got a 'past' emotion on. What happened to Joyce 'Come in to my life' Sims? PdB Original Message - From: Dr. Nutcracker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313@hyperreal.org Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2003 1:43 PM Subject: Re: Re: (313) 'Techno' Music definatly a good take on this whole subject...but i have always believed that larry heard should be in this conversation almost as much as ron hardy TRUE! Larry Heard... breaks my heart, when I think about the conversation we had on his illegal album being re-released last year. Being robbed twice. Mastermind... brings back the subject on Dub again... tapedelays. Wow! But whatabout Hiphop then? Mantronix for example... Dr. Nutcracker
Re: Re: (313) 'Techno' Music
Can't agree with you more Marc! It's def. not about categorical definitions at all... though I need to. because of my reviews. Imo most of these 'styles' are just simular, because of choice of technology... But at the end it's all about the soul within. I also like to neglect my personal emotional connections towards a record and totally neglect the year it has been released, so I can creat a mix as objective as possible... and that really works! This way I never have to fear a night of only one certain categorie... For example I used to be resident DJ at Panama, Amsterdam, in their first year of it's excistance. Because I totally disregard any categories I am able to mix Soul, Funk, Hiphop, House and even some deep Techno! The manager of this venue returned me a load of respect while I wasn't allowed to play any House records... but at the end of every night the people seriously went home with tears in their eyes. The manager was even crazy enough to not book Roy Ayers for their opening showThough now Francois K. Derrick May are playing there next weekend and simular DJ's too. And you already guessed it they don't want too Jazzy records. Btw Lester I was just wondering in general, not any specific records. Nobody beats Cosmic car... ; ) Dr. Nutcracker
Re: Re: (313) 'Techno' Music
definatly a good take on this whole subject...but i have always believed that larry heard should be in this conversation almost as much as ron hardy TRUE! Larry Heard... breaks my heart, when I think about the conversation we had on his illegal album being re-released last year. Being robbed twice. Mastermind... brings back the subject on Dub again... tapedelays. Wow! But whatabout Hiphop then? Mantronix for example... Dr. Nutcracker
Re: (313) 'Techno' Music
Can anyone expand further; was it though up by the 'belleville 3' or Rushton ? hello chris! (my fellow manchester pikey) erm, well. I could be completely and utterly wrong about this - so someone correct me please! but, I kind of thought in the back of my mind, that the techno term was from 'the belleville 3'! and maybe it was something referred to in Alvin Toffler's Book. I think there was a quote in the book, something about the techno rebels . I have one at home if chris you want to borrow it? BUT, I could just be making all this up in my head. I tend to do that sometimes and then claim it as fact. so, anyone else know? maybe Mr Sicko might pop up if he isn't too busy and correct me. alex (a tryer, you've got to give me that) p.s. that YMO lp called Technopolis was out in about 1980 wasn't it too? _ - End of message text This e-mail is sent by the above named in their individual, non-business capacity and is not on behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers. PricewaterhouseCoopers may monitor outgoing and incoming e-mails and other telecommunications on its e-mail and telecommunications systems. By replying to this e-mail you give your consent to such monitoring
Re: Re: (313) 'Techno' Music
I always thought that Juan coined the term by taking the phrase from Toffler's book when he made 'Techno City' . It was Rushton who jumped on it and pushed it as a genre name to try and differentiate thier music from Chicago House. aha, thats more than likely. my head tends to get muddled at the best of times, so forgive me. do I get half a point for trying though? I wanna win a 313 chequebook pen. _ - End of message text This e-mail is sent by the above named in their individual, non-business capacity and is not on behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers. PricewaterhouseCoopers may monitor outgoing and incoming e-mails and other telecommunications on its e-mail and telecommunications systems. By replying to this e-mail you give your consent to such monitoring
RE: Re: (313) 'Techno' Music
Don't forget that Kraftwerk had a tune named Techno Pop on Electric Cafe in 1986, as well. Dennis -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 8:34 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: Re: (313) 'Techno' Music I always thought that Juan coined the term by taking the phrase from Toffler's book when he made 'Techno City' . It was Rushton who jumped on it and pushed it as a genre name to try and differentiate thier music from Chicago House. aha, thats more than likely. my head tends to get muddled at the best of times, so forgive me. do I get half a point for trying though? I wanna win a 313 chequebook pen. _ - End of message text This e-mail is sent by the above named in their individual, non-business capacity and is not on behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers. PricewaterhouseCoopers may monitor outgoing and incoming e-mails and other telecommunications on its e-mail and telecommunications systems. By replying to this e-mail you give your consent to such monitoring
RE: Re: (313) 'Techno' Music
Don't forget that Kraftwerk had a tune named Techno Pop on Electric Cafe in 1986, as well. aha, yes. when was juan's techno city out? was it '85 time? check this YMO discography too.. http://www.algonet.se/~jonwar/YMO-discog.html technopolis - 1979, technodelic - 1981. I also saw another techno reference on a late '70's disco record. struggling to remember what it was though. I'll probably have remembered by Monday. techno techno techno. bloody techno. it'll be the death of me. _ - End of message text This e-mail is sent by the above named in their individual, non-business capacity and is not on behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers. PricewaterhouseCoopers may monitor outgoing and incoming e-mails and other telecommunications on its e-mail and telecommunications systems. By replying to this e-mail you give your consent to such monitoring
Re: Re: (313) 'Techno' Music
I always thought that Juan coined the term by taking the phrase from Toffler's book when he made 'Techno City' . It was Rushton who jumped on it and pushed it as a genre name to try and differentiate thier music from Chicago House. And that's exactly what these heads were doing in the beginning on their labels... simular equipment as in Chicago House and with influeces from a dozen european bands. So can we conclude then... that in early stages a lot of so called 'Detroit Techno' classics are at least very simular to Chicago House? I also remember a story wherein these heads were driving up to Chicago every weekend to check out those 'Disco' parties with DJ's like Ron Hardy. Of course we cannot neglect the fact that Detroit city was in resessions those days... Dr. Nutcracker
Re: Re: (313) 'Techno' Music
that in early stages a lot of so called 'Detroit Techno' classics are at least very simular to Chicago House? I guess a bit I always thought that maybe Chicago kind of had similarities with Jamaica (slightly). In that, both Chicago and jamaican producers took records from other 'scenes', remade them in their own style for the purpose of dances/clubs. Chicago Heads + Disco/Italo Disco/Boogie records = House (for music box, warehouse etc) Jamaican Heads + American Soul Blues records = Dub/Reggae (for the dances/soundsystems/dj's) where as in detroit, there wasn't really a big club scene? and the records weren't really remakes. erm, yet another case of me thinking out loud. dunno anyway. _ - End of message text This e-mail is sent by the above named in their individual, non-business capacity and is not on behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers. PricewaterhouseCoopers may monitor outgoing and incoming e-mails and other telecommunications on its e-mail and telecommunications systems. By replying to this e-mail you give your consent to such monitoring
RE: Re: (313) 'Techno' Music
I can think of at least one exception Alex: 'e2-e4/Sueno Latino' :-) k -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 24, 2003 3:33 PM To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: Re: (313) 'Techno' Music that in early stages a lot of so called 'Detroit Techno' classics are at least very simular to Chicago House? I guess a bit I always thought that maybe Chicago kind of had similarities with Jamaica (slightly). In that, both Chicago and jamaican producers took records from other 'scenes', remade them in their own style for the purpose of dances/clubs. Chicago Heads + Disco/Italo Disco/Boogie records = House (for music box, warehouse etc) Jamaican Heads + American Soul Blues records = Dub/Reggae (for the dances/soundsystems/dj's) where as in detroit, there wasn't really a big club scene? and the records weren't really remakes. erm, yet another case of me thinking out loud. dunno anyway. _ - End of message text This e-mail is sent by the above named in their individual, non-business capacity and is not on behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers. PricewaterhouseCoopers may monitor outgoing and incoming e-mails and other telecommunications on its e-mail and telecommunications systems. By replying to this e-mail you give your consent to such monitoring
Re: Re: (313) 'Techno' Music
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003, Dr. Nutcracker wrote: I always thought that Juan coined the term by taking the phrase from Toffler's book when he made 'Techno City' . It was Rushton who jumped on it and pushed it as a genre name to try and differentiate thier music from Chicago House. And that's exactly what these heads were doing in the beginning on their labels... simular equipment as in Chicago House and with influeces from a dozen european bands. So can we conclude then... that in early stages a lot of so called 'Detroit Techno' classics are at least very simular to Chicago House? Yes and no. They are similar enough to mix w.o. problem. But there is nothing coming out of Chicago during this time that sounds anything like Clear or Cosmic Cars. Similarly there is nothing coming out of Detroit that sounds like Love Can't Turn Around. Strings of Life, and maybe Triangle of Love are the two songs that sound like Detroit songs with Chicago influences. The Acid stuff (Phuture's stuff jumps out) are the Chicago songs that exhibit Detroit influences. I also remember a story wherein these heads were driving up to Chicago every weekend to check out those 'Disco' parties with DJ's like Ron Hardy. Yep. But also remember that the Chicago artists were either borrowing the equipment of Detroiter's or getting the equipment they used. Of course we cannot neglect the fact that Detroit city was in resessions those days... Yes it was...but black Chicago wasn't doing much better. There is a quote in a Model 500 song (Future i think) that talks about how techno is here to stay. That song comes out in '85. peace lks
RE: Re: (313) 'Techno' Music
I can think of at least one exception Alex: 'e2-e4/Sueno Latino' heh heh, theres always one...! yeah, I guess theres a few. No, I was just thinking in general, 'of the scene' if you know what I mean. and I was kind of musing out loud. but, I've never been to chicago, detroit or jamaica, or any of their clubs/dances, so how the f**k I came to this conclusion I'll never know! _ - End of message text This e-mail is sent by the above named in their individual, non-business capacity and is not on behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers. PricewaterhouseCoopers may monitor outgoing and incoming e-mails and other telecommunications on its e-mail and telecommunications systems. By replying to this e-mail you give your consent to such monitoring
Re: Re: (313) 'Techno' Music
The canonical history holds that it was indeed out of the marketing of the Ten Records Techno comp that the term techno first came to be used to describe the 313 sound and differentiate it more concretely from the sounds of Chicago's scene. But there's more than one example of May in particular mentioning that he doesn't like techno as a term. Techno was clearly Juan's afterthought, and it suited Rushton and the marketing campaign just fine. Up until '88, techno did not exist in Detroit. It was house, or Detroit house at best. I think this fact is often covered over because it's felt to undermine the genre differences between techno and house, or to undermine techno's claim to independent consideration. But it would be clearly incorrect to consider techno as merely a cousin of house. The scenes in Chicago and Detroit were related, but LKS uses very good concrete examples to show the differences. If we can give up just a touch of our collective 313-centricity, just for an instant, and ask seriously what House/Techno would have been without the terms to stabilize them, I think the relatively provisional and even kind of arbitrary limits of the genres become clearer. Sure Chicago Detroit had rather different sounds, but the sounds within each city's scene were also wildly divergent. House today rarely sounds as broad, or experimental, as it did when it was local, and stood as a local practice. The earliest tracks (and mixing practices) of the belleville three, plus d-wynn, mills, baxter, fawlkes, and *all* the other folks who were already well-established by '87-'88, were also very different, track-by-track, from each other.(1) There was a *lot* of musical experimentation going down at the time, in both cities. This is not to say that the experimentation of 313-related artists today is insignificant. But it's worth thinking through how house and techno came to be understood, sometimes out of listening for a common thread in the music of the 313, and sometimes by ignoring interesting ventures into its early outer reaches... My overly academic .02, at any rate. -marc (1) I'd be more than willing to bet that this incredible diversity of sound, and movement which seemed to *defy* rather than produce genre, also helps to account for the individualistic strain in Atkins-May-Saunderson-Mills interviews. May relentlessly hits on individual innovation, and on *not* sounding like the thing before. Atkins and Mills both say techno (which they use as a descriptor in the early 90's, rather than a categorical definition) should be the sound of the new. When they say It should (or did) sound really *techno* they clearly meant that it sounded wild, and really out there. At 11:07 AM -0400 10/24/03, Lester Kenyatta Spence wrote: On Fri, 24 Oct 2003, Dr. Nutcracker wrote: I always thought that Juan coined the term by taking the phrase from Toffler's book when he made 'Techno City' . It was Rushton who jumped on it and pushed it as a genre name to try and differentiate thier music from Chicago House. And that's exactly what these heads were doing in the beginning on their labels... simular equipment as in Chicago House and with influeces from a dozen european bands. So can we conclude then... that in early stages a lot of so called 'Detroit Techno' classics are at least very simular to Chicago House? Yes and no. They are similar enough to mix w.o. problem. But there is nothing coming out of Chicago during this time that sounds anything like Clear or Cosmic Cars. Similarly there is nothing coming out of Detroit that sounds like Love Can't Turn Around. Strings of Life, and maybe Triangle of Love are the two songs that sound like Detroit songs with Chicago influences. The Acid stuff (Phuture's stuff jumps out) are the Chicago songs that exhibit Detroit influences.
Re: Re: (313) 'Techno' Music
I believe D. May also lived in Chicago for a while - He broke Strings of Life with Ron Hardy at the Music Box (or was it the Warehouse?) and if you listen to a Hardy DJ mix and a May DJ mix back-to-back you realize how influential Ron was on Derrick. I've always associated May's music with Chicago house and Juan's with Detroit techno - there is clearly a difference. Maybe that's why Derrick didn't like the word 'techno' - because he thought of his sound as house music and a continuum of the Chicago sound. Juan probably didn't feel that so he needed a new way to define what he was doing. Probably also why lots of people who think of themselves as 'techno' fans are disappointed when they hear Derrick play - it's 50/50 mix between 'house' and 'techno' and they don't expect that. Same is true with Jeff Mills if he slips 'house' tracks into his sets. Most of the time though, I think journalists put names to the genres because you need a word or phrase to communicate to your audience. Short catchy names work best. Most artists shrug it off or try to shake the label off of them because they don't need the word - they have the music and they let the music speak for itself. Often you find an artist who actively moves away from a sound that is associated with a genre label because they don't like being pinned down. So, yeah, I think it's mostly the writers - it's their job and it's not really a bad thing initially because it allows people to communicate. It's when those who are cashing in on a 'movement' that really do the music and the word harm. MEK Dr. Nutcracker [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 313@hyperreal.org ty-072.com cc: Subject: Re: Re: (313) 'Techno' Music 10/24/03 08:53 AM Please respond to Dr. Nutcracker I always thought that Juan coined the term by taking the phrase from Toffler's book when he made 'Techno City' . It was Rushton who jumped on it and pushed it as a genre name to try and differentiate thier music from Chicago House. And that's exactly what these heads were doing in the beginning on their labels... simular equipment as in Chicago House and with influeces from a dozen european bands. So can we conclude then... that in early stages a lot of so called 'Detroit Techno' classics are at least very simular to Chicago House? I also remember a story wherein these heads were driving up to Chicago every weekend to check out those 'Disco' parties with DJ's like Ron Hardy. Of course we cannot neglect the fact that Detroit city was in resessions those days... Dr. Nutcracker
RE: Re: (313) 'Techno' Music
That's a very good analysis. One thing that springs to mind, for me, is that, during the mid and late 1980s, there was another city apart from Detroit where people were trying to develop a sound called techno: 'We have heard techno attempted, and yet sadly you have failed you should stick to vice, miami - leave the techno to LA!' That's from a DJ Unknown DJ Slip track on Techno Kut records in 1988 - Techno Kut's sound was very heavily influenced by Kraftwerk and Cybotron. However, it wore those influences on its sleeve in a far more overt way than the music that ended up being known as Detroit techno, sounding pretty much like early 1980s electro and often basing whole tracks around flagrant Kraftwerk samples. Sometimes I wonder if, if the Techno Kut people had ended up developing a more unique and distinct sound, the terms we use for music today would be totally different? It would be pretty strange to have LA as the epicentre of techno, and for artists like UR or Jeff Mills being spoken of as house producers. And was the actual *direction* of the music affected in any way by the fact it was called techno? If people had always just thought of it as Detroit house, would it have still developed into what it is today? Brendan -Original Message- From: marc christensen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 24 October 2003 17:14 To: Lester Kenyatta Spence; Dr. Nutcracker Cc: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: Re: (313) 'Techno' Music The canonical history holds that it was indeed out of the marketing of the Ten Records Techno comp that the term techno first came to be used to describe the 313 sound and differentiate it more concretely from the sounds of Chicago's scene. But there's more than one example of May in particular mentioning that he doesn't like techno as a term. Techno was clearly Juan's afterthought, and it suited Rushton and the marketing campaign just fine...
RE: Re: (313) 'Techno' Music
The conclusion is accurate Alex - dub technology was a huge influence on people like Ron Hardy. The wilder the sound the more he liked it (from what I've read and heard in his mixes). MEK [EMAIL PROTECTED] com To: 313@hyperreal.org cc: 10/24/03 10:07 AMSubject: RE: Re: (313) 'Techno' Music I can think of at least one exception Alex: 'e2-e4/Sueno Latino' heh heh, theres always one...! yeah, I guess theres a few. No, I was just thinking in general, 'of the scene' if you know what I mean. and I was kind of musing out loud. but, I've never been to chicago, detroit or jamaica, or any of their clubs/dances, so how the f**k I came to this conclusion I'll never know! _ - End of message text This e-mail is sent by the above named in their individual, non-business capacity and is not on behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers. PricewaterhouseCoopers may monitor outgoing and incoming e-mails and other telecommunications on its e-mail and telecommunications systems. By replying to this e-mail you give your consent to such monitoring
Re: Re: (313) 'Techno' Music
Damn Marc! You've got footnotes in there too... Seriously though, I like what you've said. MEK marc christensen [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Lester Kenyatta Spence [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dr. Nutcracker e.edu[EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: 313@hyperreal.org 10/24/03 11:14 AMSubject: Re: Re: (313) 'Techno' Music The canonical history holds that it was indeed out of the marketing of the Ten Records Techno comp that the term techno first came to be used to describe the 313 sound and differentiate it more concretely from the sounds of Chicago's scene. But there's more than one example of May in particular mentioning that he doesn't like techno as a term. Techno was clearly Juan's afterthought, and it suited Rushton and the marketing campaign just fine. Up until '88, techno did not exist in Detroit. It was house, or Detroit house at best. I think this fact is often covered over because it's felt to undermine the genre differences between techno and house, or to undermine techno's claim to independent consideration. But it would be clearly incorrect to consider techno as merely a cousin of house. The scenes in Chicago and Detroit were related, but LKS uses very good concrete examples to show the differences. If we can give up just a touch of our collective 313-centricity, just for an instant, and ask seriously what House/Techno would have been without the terms to stabilize them, I think the relatively provisional and even kind of arbitrary limits of the genres become clearer. Sure Chicago Detroit had rather different sounds, but the sounds within each city's scene were also wildly divergent. House today rarely sounds as broad, or experimental, as it did when it was local, and stood as a local practice. The earliest tracks (and mixing practices) of the belleville three, plus d-wynn, mills, baxter, fawlkes, and *all* the other folks who were already well-established by '87-'88, were also very different, track-by-track, from each other.(1) There was a *lot* of musical experimentation going down at the time, in both cities. This is not to say that the experimentation of 313-related artists today is insignificant. But it's worth thinking through how house and techno came to be understood, sometimes out of listening for a common thread in the music of the 313, and sometimes by ignoring interesting ventures into its early outer reaches... My overly academic .02, at any rate. -marc (1) I'd be more than willing to bet that this incredible diversity of sound, and movement which seemed to *defy* rather than produce genre, also helps to account for the individualistic strain in Atkins-May-Saunderson-Mills interviews. May relentlessly hits on individual innovation, and on *not* sounding like the thing before. Atkins and Mills both say techno (which they use as a descriptor in the early 90's, rather than a categorical definition) should be the sound of the new. When they say It should (or did) sound really *techno* they clearly meant that it sounded wild, and really out there. At 11:07 AM -0400 10/24/03, Lester Kenyatta Spence wrote: On Fri, 24 Oct 2003, Dr. Nutcracker wrote: I always thought that Juan coined the term by taking the phrase from Toffler's book when he made 'Techno City' . It was Rushton who jumped on it and pushed it as a genre name to try and differentiate thier music from Chicago House. And that's exactly what these heads were doing in the beginning on their labels... simular equipment as in Chicago House and with influeces from a dozen european bands. So can we conclude then... that in early stages a lot of so called 'Detroit Techno' classics are at least very simular to Chicago House? Yes and no. They are similar enough to mix w.o. problem. But there is nothing coming out of Chicago during this time that sounds anything like Clear or Cosmic Cars. Similarly there is nothing coming out of Detroit that sounds like Love Can't Turn Around. Strings of Life, and maybe Triangle of Love are the two songs that sound like Detroit songs with Chicago influences. The Acid stuff (Phuture's stuff jumps out) are the Chicago songs that exhibit Detroit influences.
Re: Re: (313) 'Techno' Music
Damn Marc! You've got footnotes in there too... Seriously though, I like what you've said. yeah me too. quality post. really learning quite alot here, cool thread. _ - End of message text This e-mail is sent by the above named in their individual, non-business capacity and is not on behalf of PricewaterhouseCoopers. PricewaterhouseCoopers may monitor outgoing and incoming e-mails and other telecommunications on its e-mail and telecommunications systems. By replying to this e-mail you give your consent to such monitoring
Re: Re: (313) 'Techno' Music
On Fri, 24 Oct 2003, marc christensen wrote: The canonical history holds that it was indeed out of the marketing of the Ten Records Techno comp that the term techno first came to be used to describe the 313 sound and differentiate it more concretely from the sounds of Chicago's scene. But there's more than one example of May in particular mentioning that he doesn't like techno as a term. Techno was clearly Juan's afterthought, and it suited Rushton and the marketing campaign just fine. I think the canonical history is actually wrong on this point. Take the phrase techno's here to stay in Future. Now that term could mean damn near anything within the context of that song...but given that I had conversations with my partners (in Detroit) before '87 about techno music, I'm arguing that the term was applied to what we now think of as techno before it was used as a marketing slogan. Up until '88, techno did not exist in Detroit. I disagree. But I do agree that there were a number of other names used to describe both house and detroit's music (whether it was house, detroit house, or prep music, or progressive). If we can give up just a touch of our collective 313-centricity, just for an instant, and ask seriously what House/Techno would have been without the terms to stabilize them, I think the relatively provisional and even kind of arbitrary limits of the genres become clearer. Sure Chicago Detroit had rather different sounds, but the sounds within each city's scene were also wildly divergent. The question though is, for purely categorical purposes is the variance within each city as great as the variance between the cities? I have to think really hard about this one. House today rarely sounds as broad, or experimental, as it did when it was local, and stood as a local practice. Thinking off the top of my head in Chicago you had three different streams. The stuff that relied heavily on sampling (house nation, jack your body, farley farley, etc.), the stuff that relied heavily on vocals (you used to love me, you ain't really house, etc.), and the stuff that relied heavily on bass lines (no way back instrumental, acid trax). This stuff was very different than anything else we'd heard...but it really wasn't broad the way we'd think of broad now. In fact I'd argue that house now is much broader than it was when it was a nascent art form. There are a number of reasons for this. There are more artists working within the genre, they are spread over the world rather than concentrated within one city, there is both international diversity and racial diversity in the artists (and consumers), and there is more technical sophistication. The earliest tracks (and mixing practices) of the belleville three, plus d-wynn, mills, baxter, fawlkes, and *all* the other folks who were already well-established by '87-'88, were also very different, track-by-track, from each other.(1) There was a *lot* of musical experimentation going down at the time, in both cities. They were different enough that you could tell when Model 500 was responsible for a track as opposed to Fowlkes. But they weren't so different that you couldn't hear them as opposed to chicago tracks and not be able to say where the tracks came from. lks
Re: Re: (313) 'Techno' Music
definatly a good take on this whole subject...but i have always believed that larry heard should be in this conversation almost as much as ron hardyderrick may definatly reflects ron hardy's dj style , but as for the tracks derrick may made, larry heard had to be a huge influence. i have heard from several people that larry heard was a huge influence on derrick as well as others...last time rick wilhite came out here to portland we were talking about this kind of stuff and he was telling me he plays techno. a kind of techno no one else plays, yet most people would have called this house. and i have also heard of people like Glenn Underground and Boo Williams, and Brian Harden refer to some of there sets as Chicago techno...i think sometimes they do this just to mess with people's heads , but there is some truth to those terms as welli mean i know larry heard is the man who helped invent house yet listen to his gherkin jerks stuff and other stuff it sounds alot like what was later called detroit technolenny and lawrence burden once told me MANY detroit artist used to go and check out ron and other clubs in chicago as well as go record shopping down there, and larry heard was a total fixture in that scene so many of the detroit guys were hevely influenced by larry heard as well as ron hardythen there is little louis and k-alexi and others that were all around at the same time...some of those old k-alexi tracks can sure sound detroit technoish at timesbut they are strictly chicago house just my 2 cents on the topic.good thread michael www.renegaderhythms.com I believe D. May also lived in Chicago for a while - He broke Strings of Life with Ron Hardy at the Music Box (or was it the Warehouse?) and if you listen to a Hardy DJ mix and a May DJ mix back-to-back you realize how influential Ron was on Derrick. I've always associated May's music with Chicago house and Juan's with Detroit techno - there is clearly a difference. Maybe that's why Derrick didn't like the word 'techno' - because he thought of his sound as house music and a continuum of the Chicago sound. Juan probably didn't feel that so he needed a new way to define what he was doing. Probably also why lots of people who think of themselves as 'techno' fans are disappointed when they hear Derrick play - it's 50/50 mix between 'house' and 'techno' and they don't expect that. Same is true with Jeff Mills if he slips 'house' tracks into his sets. Most of the time though, I think journalists put names to the genres because you need a word or phrase to communicate to your audience. Short catchy names work best. Most artists shrug it off or try to shake the label off of them because they don't need the word - they have the music and they let the music speak for itself. Often you find an artist who actively moves away from a sound that is associated with a genre label because they don't like being pinned down. So, yeah, I think it's mostly the writers - it's their job and it's not really a bad thing initially because it allows people to communicate. It's when those who are cashing in on a 'movement' that really do the music and the word harm. MEK Dr. Nutcracker [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: 313@hyperreal.org ty-072.com cc: Subject: Re: Re: (313) 'Techno' Music 10/24/03 08:53 AM Please respond to Dr. Nutcracker I always thought that Juan coined the term by taking the phrase from Toffler's book when he made 'Techno City' . It was Rushton who jumped on it and pushed it as a genre name to try and differentiate thier music from Chicago House. And that's exactly what these heads were doing in the beginning on their labels... simular equipment as in Chicago House and with influeces from a dozen european bands. So can we conclude then... that in early stages a lot of so called 'Detroit Techno' classics are at least very simular to Chicago House? I also remember a story wherein these heads were driving up to Chicago every weekend to check out those 'Disco' parties with DJ's like Ron Hardy. Of course we cannot neglect the fact that Detroit city was in resessions those days... Dr. Nutcracker
Re: Re: (313) 'Techno' Music
Dr. Nutcracker wrote: So can we conclude then... that in early stages a lot of so called 'Detroit Techno' classics are at least very simular to Chicago House? first time i heard fingers inc - distant planet, i thought it was some early rhythim is rhythm [adventurous drum programming] derrick may has been extremely influenced by larry heard's productions. but at the same time did something completely different with it. chip e - it's house...is it? I also remember a story wherein these heads were driving up to Chicago every weekend to check out those 'Disco' parties with DJ's like Ron Hardy. i remember either from that channel 4 documentary on house music 'pump up the volume' or from another interview derrick may's quote: everyone i took there ended up heavily influenced by that experience about visiting the muzic box. alex bond wrote: where as in detroit, there wasn't really a big club scene? and the records weren't really remakes. dunno how big the scene was, but i do remember from 'techno rebels' that the scene was intence. and eclectic aswell. the same as chicago, but maybe with a bit more industrial influences. i remember reading something about having a 'house'party on one floor, and a flog of seagulls on another at the same building. and what was the sequence again for the first night they payed sharivari [two copies of kano - holly dolly] ? kraftwerk - the robots quartz - beyond the clouds number of names - sharivari ... and the people were climbing the walls! Lester Kenyatta Spence wrote: Yep. But also remember that the Chicago artists were either borrowing the equipment of Detroiter's or getting the equipment they used. i think frankie knuckles bought one of derrick may's drumcomputers marc christensen wrote: ... got nothing to add here, so i'll just paste all of it beneath: The canonical history holds that it was indeed out of the marketing of the Ten Records Techno comp that the term techno first came to be used to describe the 313 sound and differentiate it more concretely from the sounds of Chicago's scene. But there's more than one example of May in particular mentioning that he doesn't like techno as a term. Techno was clearly Juan's afterthought, and it suited Rushton and the marketing campaign just fine. Up until '88, techno did not exist in Detroit. It was house, or Detroit house at best. I think this fact is often covered over because it's felt to undermine the genre differences between techno and house, or to undermine techno's claim to independent consideration. But it would be clearly incorrect to consider techno as merely a cousin of house. The scenes in Chicago and Detroit were related, but LKS uses very good concrete examples to show the differences. If we can give up just a touch of our collective 313-centricity, just for an instant, and ask seriously what House/Techno would have been without the terms to stabilize them, I think the relatively provisional and even kind of arbitrary limits of the genres become clearer. Sure Chicago Detroit had rather different sounds, but the sounds within each city's scene were also wildly divergent. House today rarely sounds as broad, or experimental, as it did when it was local, and stood as a local practice. The earliest tracks (and mixing practices) of the belleville three, plus d-wynn, mills, baxter, fawlkes, and *all* the other folks who were already well-established by '87-'88, were also very different, track-by-track, from each other.(1) There was a *lot* of musical experimentation going down at the time, in both cities. This is not to say that the experimentation of 313-related artists today is insignificant. But it's worth thinking through how house and techno came to be understood, sometimes out of listening for a common thread in the music of the 313, and sometimes by ignoring interesting ventures into its early outer reaches... My overly academic .02, at any rate. -marc (1) I'd be more than willing to bet that this incredible diversity of sound, and movement which seemed to *defy* rather than produce genre, also helps to account for the individualistic strain in Atkins-May-Saunderson-Mills interviews. May relentlessly hits on individual innovation, and on *not* sounding like the thing before. Atkins and Mills both say techno (which they use as a descriptor in the early 90's, rather than a categorical definition) should be the sound of the new. When they say It should (or did) sound really *techno* they clearly meant that it sounded wild, and really out there. _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
RE: Re: (313) 'Techno' Music
Techno City was 1984. The term was in use long before Neil Rushton used it as a marketing hook, but it was a different kind of descriptive than house. Techno tends to be more instrumental, and the vocals are often consciously machine-like (Kraftwerk and Model 500 certainly share that approach). House is more vocal-based, with origins in soul, disco and the African American church. So in house you get a lot of proclaiming: I am the creator/and this is my house music . . . Techno, like bebop jazz, tends to take a more roundabout way to self-description. These are pretty fuzzy categories -- you have a lot of house that is very machinelike (certainly that's the whole point of acid house), and some techno with vocals, but after listening and playing a whole lot of both for a dozen years, I have a pretty clear idea in my own mind where the boundaries are. Although you can argue in particular cases whether a track is house or techno, and some seem to deliberately blend both (Octave One's I Believe is a good example). From a wider angle, house and techno are really part of the same musical continuum. They are not musically antagonistic and I always like to hear a blend of both as opposed to just house or just techno. This goes back all the way to the beginning 20 years ago in their co-development in Detroit and Chicago. fred fred
RE: [313]Techno music isn't the only music (was: the race debate)
(I hate myself for chiming in on this thread~) Here are the facts: Many Detroit producers have shelled out their hearts and their pocketbooks for the thing that they love (black, white, polish, ect.). These people are in it for the long haul. They would love to sell a million copies, or be content with current sales. They just want their message to be heard. Along comes someone else who is not making music for the same purpose, but instead for the paycheck and strictly that (see numerous long threads describing underground, and sellout). These people could be any race and any creed. It doesn't matter. It just so happens that the guy whose name starts with M (see long torturous debate last month), just happens to be classed with those who are in it for the money. The bottom line is: our music isn't really that popular, and most folks on this list are afraid that if it ever became popular, the music would lose its luster. It won't, you'll just have to dig deeper for the stuff that you love. You may have to wade through more garbage to get the soulful stuff, but it doesn't change the quality of the music we have now, or we will have in the future. Now for the ford part: (ugh... I can't believe this has to be reiterated) Ford is trying to sell cars (see long list of discussion re:ford focus vs. Juan Atkins last year this time) Ford sponsors things that they think will sell their cars. Music will help sell Ford's cars. Ford is in Dearborn: Detroit Techno is really close by. Ford (actually their marketing company) thinks that Techno will help them with the customers that elude them presently (namely: us). Ford also thinks that Moby will help them sell cars to people of our generation. Who cares. If you don't like Ford, then don't buy one. If you like Ford, buy one. It doesn't matter who is sponsering what event. If you think that a free event (namely the DEMF) will go on without a major corporate sponsor, you're entirely incorrect. At least Carl Craig has the sense to use the corporately corrupt and heavily advertising-bent society that we live in, to throw a free Festival that is soaked in the soul and music that we all love and respect. I think we should all drop this and listen to more records - peace. Cheers! Dennis Donohue From: laura gavoor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], 313@hyperreal.org Subject: RE: [313] the race debate Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 17:40:52 With a tag line of: Ford Focus...Detroit Techno sponsoring a Moby tour...what do you suggest? Shall a Mike Banks or a Juan Atkins for example, sit back and let someone else make his money and benefit from their efforts while they are quintessentially excluded and pushed aside. What kind of juveniles do you all think created this music and mentality? These are grown men and women, with families to support and REAL bills to pay. Are our dreams of financial success and acclaim to be kicked to the curb for the greater good? What the f**k are you all saying ANYWAY? It is simply not in our nature, nor in the nature of the culture of aggressive creative individualism/techno to simply lie down and take a fist up the rump. Can we try at least to approach this as grown business people. After all, 313 CREATED this business and now the majors and stupid, tagalong bad white people wish to exploit it and us for the sake of the dollar. I'm disgusted with the apathy being exhibited in this thread. Life is not E based. That is simply NOT REAL y'all. Parties that bring all the races together are incredibleBUT THEY ARE JUST PARTIES. Party life and the esoterics of the music are NOT what we are discussing here at all. How would any of you like it if you busted yo ass 24-7 for 10+ years and someone else got paid for your work. Would this not raise your ire?? Come one kiddies, let's talk reality here. A trance rip-off of Jaguar was just the tip of the iceberg. If you truly believe in this music and culture perhaps you might like to join in the fight for its defense and longevity. From: Steven Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: RE: [313] the race debate Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 18:19:52 +0100 Some of you will be the first in line to buy your tickets, but I caution you. If this does, in fact, occur as it has been outlined to me, the global family...and I mean the FOR REAL mugs-- the world over-- will respond. Try to take over, white wash, distort, divert or dilute any of our accomplishments or economics and there will be consequences. We are a force to be reckoned with when unified and I cannot think of a better opportunity! Or we could just ignore them and keep doing it better, action not reaction you know? Steve - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _
