Re: [AFMUG] Juniper routers

[Christopher Tyler]

I can answer that question. Don't do it. Grey market gear will end up costing 
you almost as much as getting it used (possibly new) from a dealer. And the 
hoops you have to jump through to get software updates on grey market is 
obscene. You have pay several thousand to get it re-certified by Juniper to get 
into a service contract and then you have to pay for the service contract.

-- 
Christopher Tyler
Senior Network Engineer
MTCRE/MTCNA/MTCTCE/MTCWE

Total Highspeed Internet Solutions
1091 W. Kathryn Street
Nixa, MO 65714
(417) 851-1107 x. 9002
www.totalhighspeed.com

- Original Message -
> From: "Josh Baird" 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> Sent: Saturday, January 4, 2020 4:06:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Juniper routers

> In some ways, Juniper isn't any better than Cisco in terms of licensed 
> software
> features and it seems to only be getting worse. Some features (on *some*
> platforms) are honor based, but lots are not and require a license. You can
> purchase licenses from any Juniper reseller. I'm not sure what the process is
> for getting J-Care on used/grey-market gear, as I have never tried to do that.
> 
> You need an active support contract in order to download software from their
> website, although it's not as restrictive as Cisco's which now requires you to
> have a contract on a specific device to get firmware for that device iirc.
> 
> On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 4:45 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) < [
> mailto:li...@packetflux.com | li...@packetflux.com ] > wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like a good question to ask the burning question I've had about juniper
> and specifically how juniper deals with license/firmware updates, etc.
> 
> We've been a cisco shop since day one. Over the years they've gotten more and
> more aggressive with their licensing requirements and controlled access to
> firmware updates. At this point they seem to care less about selling hardware
> and are more about extracting as much license and support revenue as possible
> which makes picking up a used router a much riskier proposition.
> 
> How does juniper handle this type of stuff, especially in relation to used 
> gear?
> And in the context of getting the right software features (bgp, reasonable
> number of ospf routes, etc) enabled. And so on.
> 
> On Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 7:39 PM Mark Radabaugh < [ mailto:m...@amplex.net |
> m...@amplex.net ] > wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Not necessarily. Depending on model many have redundant routing engines,
> multiple power supplies, fan trays, etc. You may want to have spare cards and
> possibly a empty chassis in the really odd event of a backplane issue. All
> depends on you risk tolerance.
> 
> Mark
> 
> Mark Radabaugh
> Amplex
> 22690 Pemberville Rd
> Luckey, OH 43443
> 419-261-5996
> 
> 
> 
> On Dec 31, 2019, at 9:18 PM, Jon Langeler < [ 
> mailto:jon-ispli...@michwave.net |
> jon-ispli...@michwave.net ] > wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does one have to buy two of these for redundancy as we do with our current but
> smaller routers?
> 
> Jon Langeler
> Michwave Technologies, Inc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Dec 31, 2019, at 11:11 AM, Gino A. Villarini < [ mailto:g...@aeronetpr.com 
> |
> g...@aeronetpr.com ] > wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can go wrong with juniper.. I’ll vouch for the MX204’s great units. Our Core 
> is
> MX480 soon to be upgraded to MX10003
> 
> 
> 
> Gino Villarini
> Founder/President
> @gvillarini
> t: 787.273.4143 Ext. 204
> m:
> [ http://www.aeronetpr.com/ ] [ https://www.inc.com/profile/aeronet ] 
> [
> https://www.facebook.com/aeronetpr/ ] [
> https://www.instagram.com/aeronetpr/?hl=en ]  [
> https://www.linkedin.com/company/aeronet-broadband-corp ] [
> https://twitter.com/AeroNetPR?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
> ] [ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCr2Q9WBrAYVm3Fn970Jd6VA ][
> http://www.aeronetpr.com/ | www.aeronetpr.com ] | Metro Office Park #18 Suite
> 304 Guaynabo, PR 00968
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: AF < [ mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com | af-boun...@af.afmug.com ] > on
> behalf of Josh Baird < [ mailto:joshba...@gmail.com | joshba...@gmail.com ] >
> Reply-To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group < [ mailto:af@af.afmug.com |
> af@af.afmug.com ] >
> Date: Tuesday, December 31, 2019 at 11:41 AM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group < [ mailto:af@af.afmug.com |
> af@af.afmug.com ] >
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Juniper routers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Overall, the JunOS syntax is far more powerful and nicer to use (once you 
> learn
> it) than IOS in my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Dec 31, 2019 at 10:17 AM Mark Radabaugh < [ mailto:m...@amplex.net |
> m...@amplex.net ] > wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Syntax is a different but there are a lot of things you will like compared to
> the older IOS versions. ‘commit confirmed 5’ alone is worth changing for.
> 
> Mark
> 
>> On Dec 31, 2019, at 8:43 AM, Larry Smith < [ mailto:lesm...@ecsis.net |
>> lesm...@ecsis.net ] > wrote:
>> 
>> This first one will replace our primary backbone r

Re: [AFMUG] OT preserve and protect our precious bodily fluids

[Adam Moffett]

If you look at the scale on the graph.  It's well beyond "on par".   In 
sheer quantity the estrogen supplement fits within the margin of error 
on the soy burger.


but it's plant estrogen, not human estrogen.  The effect on a human 
is not the same.  The effect on humans is also not universal.  
Ethnicities who've been eating soy a long time don't see as much effect 
as a Caucasian for example, and women of different ages respond 
differently.  Sometimes the soy estrogen bonds to estrogen receptors in 
humans, but the effect can be either an increase or decrease in estrogen 
effects (i.e. it bonded to the receptor and had a real effect, or it 
bonded to the receptor and blocked the human estrogen from having it's 
effect). In younger humans it's usually a decrease in the effect of 
their natural human estrogen.


Anyway if the Impossible Whopper gave someone man-boobs it's because 
they eat too much Burger King.  It's more likely to have the opposite 
effect up until your of an age where you're not making much of your 
natural hormones anymore.  So be more manly. Eat soy.*


-Adam


*I don't eat soy because it's gross.


On 1/5/2020 7:23 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:
The whole thing is getting highly politicized, but that link is to 
what I consider a reputable US government food lab.  What I found 
disturbing is that the amount of estrogen is on par with a birth 
control pill.  I would think this would mess up both sexes.  I 
wouldn't think kids should be eating these things.


-Original Message- From: Ken Hohhof
Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2020 5:07 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT preserve and protect our precious bodily fluids

Huh?  Is this the impossible-whopper-gives-you-manboobs story?

Spanish speaking people love soy, they are always saying things like 
yo no soy marinero, soy capitan.



-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Sunday, January 5, 2020 5:33 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] OT preserve and protect our precious bodily fluids

Sci-hub.tw/10./1750-3841.14847

Damn... but I don’t eat soy so guess this isn’t the problem





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Re: [AFMUG] Heights Towers

[Josh Luthman]

Aluminum...no thanks.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 2:30 PM Matt Hoppes <
mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net> wrote:

> Has anyone heard of this company before?
>
> http://www.heightstowers.com/home.html
>
> A customer suggested them for use for a low windloading situation.
>
> I've never heard of them.
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Ipv4

[Josh Luthman]

Big company has no idea and it's just policy that's been approved I expect.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 11:36 PM John Osmon  wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 03, 2020 at 07:24:06PM -0500, Matt Hoppes wrote:
> > I find it interesting ipv4 auctions are still going strong even though
> ARIN has found a glut of IPs.
>
> One possibility:
> You have to hold a /20 or less to be on the waiting list.  (4.1.8)
>
>
> Also:
> I had people trying to rent integers from a client back when ARIN
> still had a couple of years of supply left.  I thought it was obvious
> that they were miscreants, but the folks I was working with were
> enamoured with the idea of making money just because they had some
> IP space that wasn't in use.
>
> 10+ years later they are *still* dealing with repercussions and hit on
> their reputation.
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Heights Towers

[Matt Hoppes]

Do you fly in aircraft? They are made of aluminum. 

> On Jan 6, 2020, at 9:20 AM, Josh Luthman  wrote:
> 
> Aluminum...no thanks.
> 
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 2:30 PM Matt Hoppes 
>>  wrote:
>> Has anyone heard of this company before?
>> 
>> http://www.heightstowers.com/home.html
>> 
>> A customer suggested them for use for a low windloading situation.
>> 
>> I've never heard of them.
>> 
>> -- 
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>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] Heights Towers

[Adam Moffett]

.because it's light, not because it's strong.

Aluminum flexes.  Structural steel has bounce too, but aluminum a lot 
more so.  It'll flex enough that climbers will comment on how much it 
moves.  Presumably it's safe if you stay within the load it's rated for, 
but the next scary thing is the rated load is going to be lower than 
steel, and it's very easy for someone to come along and add load without 
checking that.


Not saying aluminum is inherently bad, but you have to know it's 
limitations.


-Adam


On 1/6/2020 9:24 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:

Do you fly in aircraft? They are made of aluminum.

On Jan 6, 2020, at 9:20 AM, Josh Luthman > wrote:



Aluminum...no thanks.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 2:30 PM Matt Hoppes 
> wrote:


Has anyone heard of this company before?

http://www.heightstowers.com/home.html

A customer suggested them for use for a low windloading situation.

I've never heard of them.

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Re: [AFMUG] Heights Towers

[Matt Hoppes]

Agreed. Have you watched an aircraft wing flex?

> On Jan 6, 2020, at 9:32 AM, Adam Moffett  wrote:
> 
> .because it's light, not because it's strong. 
> 
> Aluminum flexes.  Structural steel has bounce too, but aluminum a lot more 
> so.  It'll flex enough that climbers will comment on how much it moves.  
> Presumably it's safe if you stay within the load it's rated for, but the next 
> scary thing is the rated load is going to be lower than steel, and it's very 
> easy for someone to come along and add load without checking that.
> 
> Not saying aluminum is inherently bad, but you have to know it's limitations.
> 
> -Adam
> 
> 
> 
>> On 1/6/2020 9:24 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
>> Do you fly in aircraft? They are made of aluminum. 
>> 
>> On Jan 6, 2020, at 9:20 AM, Josh Luthman  wrote:
>> 
>>> Aluminum...no thanks.
>>> 
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>> 
>>> 
 On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 2:30 PM Matt Hoppes 
  wrote:
 Has anyone heard of this company before?
 
 http://www.heightstowers.com/home.html
 
 A customer suggested them for use for a low windloading situation.
 
 I've never heard of them.
 
 -- 
 AF mailing list
 AF@af.afmug.com
 http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>> -- 
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>> 
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Re: [AFMUG] Heights Towers

[Adam Moffett]

Yeah.  I also suspect that those get inspected for loose bolts a lot 
more frequently than most towers do..just sayin.  You do you, bro.



On 1/6/2020 9:35 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:

Agreed. Have you watched an aircraft wing flex?

On Jan 6, 2020, at 9:32 AM, Adam Moffett > wrote:



.because it's light, not because it's strong.

Aluminum flexes.  Structural steel has bounce too, but aluminum a lot 
more so.  It'll flex enough that climbers will comment on how much it 
moves.  Presumably it's safe if you stay within the load it's rated 
for, but the next scary thing is the rated load is going to be lower 
than steel, and it's very easy for someone to come along and add load 
without checking that.


Not saying aluminum is inherently bad, but you have to know it's 
limitations.


-Adam


On 1/6/2020 9:24 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:

Do you fly in aircraft? They are made of aluminum.

On Jan 6, 2020, at 9:20 AM, Josh Luthman 
mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>> 
wrote:



Aluminum...no thanks.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 2:30 PM Matt Hoppes 
> wrote:


Has anyone heard of this company before?

http://www.heightstowers.com/home.html

A customer suggested them for use for a low windloading situation.

I've never heard of them.

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[AFMUG] Company Valuation

[CBB - Jay Fuller]

Lets say for easy math purposes you bill approximately 1.5 million annually.

I've heard 1.5 times annual revenue thrown around for a valuation purpose.  
There is a lot more to this figure but it's a place to start.

So, if your company billed 1.5 million, you'd say your valuation was around 
$2.25 million.

If you had 90 towers on your network - and you owned 60 of them (the steel, not 
the land they're on) , would you consider your network
worth more than if you rented all 90?

My take on this is yes, they could all be taken down and converted to cash, so 
the fact we own towers vs. rent them makes our network
more valuable.

What say you?

Thanks.

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Re: [AFMUG] Company Valuation

[Lewis Bergman]

No. I would say it is worth exactly the same to whomever buys it. I would
guess you have some sort of payment arrangement with the land owner unless
the towers have easements that have no payments required and that looks
exactly like a tower lease payment on a P&L. Some buyers don't want to own
the towers so you will maintain the ownership of those assets and lease to
the purchaser for enough to make it worth your time and effort. If this is
the case, I would make sure to align all terms to leasee to what is
typically called the Primary Lease (ground Lease). That way if one goes up
or is cancelled you can cancel the subordinate lease or adjust it or
whatever. You should also have some clause about the leasee being
responsible for tear down costs if they are sole tennant towers and a
clause covering the subordination to the Primary. If you want an example I
can send you one.

In short, a tower standing up with no customers on it is worth less than a
tower laying on the ground. Deconstruction costs are significant in many
cases.

On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 9:08 AM CBB - Jay Fuller 
wrote:

>
> Lets say for easy math purposes you bill approximately 1.5 million
> annually.
>
> I've heard 1.5 times annual revenue thrown around for a valuation
> purpose.  There is a lot more to this figure but it's a place to start.
>
> So, if your company billed 1.5 million, you'd say your valuation was
> around $2.25 million.
>
> If you had 90 towers on your network - and you owned 60 of them (the
> steel, not the land they're on) , would you consider your network
> worth more than if you rented all 90?
>
> My take on this is yes, they could all be taken down and converted to
> cash, so the fact we own towers vs. rent them makes our network
> more valuable.
>
> What say you?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> --
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> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>


-- 
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325-439-0533 Cell
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Re: [AFMUG] Company Valuation

[Jesse DuPont]

  
  
My 1.7 cents worth - perhaps even less - of an opinion is "maybe,"
but generally, no. The amount of cash you'd get out of taking down
the towers doesn't seem to be anywhere near their replacement value
by the time you take into account deconstruction in a reusable way.
Besides, the revenue the business generates is 100% dependent on
them (if you're wireless only). In the end, the revenue the business
generates today, with all past expenses, is the revenue. In other
words, whether you have $3.6M in towers or $600K in towers is kind
of irrelevant because the revenue is what it is. Even if you had a
significant income from tower rent to other lessors, that income is
still part of you revenue. There might be a limited argument that if
you also owned the land they're on, there is additional worth there
because it's real property, but unless that property were in a high
value location, its value is still only related to the revenue it
generates.


  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jesse DuPont
  Network Architect
  email: jesse.dup...@celeritycorp.net
  Celerity Networks LLC
  Celerity Broadband LLC
Like us!
  facebook.com/celeritynetworksllc
  
  Like us!
  facebook.com/celeritybroadband
  


On 1/6/20 8:07 AM, CBB - Jay Fuller
  wrote:


  
  
  
   
  Lets say for easy math purposes you bill
  approximately 1.5 million annually.
   
  I've heard 1.5 times annual revenue thrown
  around for a valuation purpose.  There is a lot more to this
  figure but it's a place to start.
   
  So, if your company billed 1.5 million,
  you'd say your valuation was around $2.25 million.
   
  If you had 90 towers on your network - and
  you owned 60 of them (the steel, not the land they're on) ,
  would you consider your network
  worth more than if you rented all 90?
   
  My take on this is yes, they could all be
  taken down and converted to cash, so the fact we own towers
  vs. rent them makes our network
  more valuable.
   
  What say you?
   
  Thanks.
   
   
  
  


  

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Re: [AFMUG] Company Valuation

[CBB - Jay Fuller]

guess i am amazed by these responses but this is why i asked.  i argued the 
towers can be taken down and the steel sold and they can be converted to cash, 
therefore, they have more value.

maybe not


  - Original Message - 
  From: Jesse DuPont 
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Cc: memb...@wispa.org 
  Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 9:48 AM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Company Valuation


  My 1.7 cents worth - perhaps even less - of an opinion is "maybe," but 
generally, no. The amount of cash you'd get out of taking down the towers 
doesn't seem to be anywhere near their replacement value by the time you take 
into account deconstruction in a reusable way. Besides, the revenue the 
business generates is 100% dependent on them (if you're wireless only). In the 
end, the revenue the business generates today, with all past expenses, is the 
revenue. In other words, whether you have $3.6M in towers or $600K in towers is 
kind of irrelevant because the revenue is what it is. Even if you had a 
significant income from tower rent to other lessors, that income is still part 
of you revenue. There might be a limited argument that if you also owned the 
land they're on, there is additional worth there because it's real property, 
but unless that property were in a high value location, its value is still only 
related to the revenue it generates.


  Jesse DuPont

  Network Architect
  email: jesse.dup...@celeritycorp.net
  Celerity Networks LLC

  Celerity Broadband LLC
  Like us! facebook.com/celeritynetworksllc



  Like us! facebook.com/celeritybroadband



  On 1/6/20 8:07 AM, CBB - Jay Fuller wrote:


Lets say for easy math purposes you bill approximately 1.5 million annually.

I've heard 1.5 times annual revenue thrown around for a valuation purpose.  
There is a lot more to this figure but it's a place to start.

So, if your company billed 1.5 million, you'd say your valuation was around 
$2.25 million.

If you had 90 towers on your network - and you owned 60 of them (the steel, 
not the land they're on) , would you consider your network
worth more than if you rented all 90?

My take on this is yes, they could all be taken down and converted to cash, 
so the fact we own towers vs. rent them makes our network
more valuable.

What say you?

Thanks.



 




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Re: [AFMUG] OT preserve and protect our precious bodily fluids

[chuck]

The man boob thing came from a guy that drank something like a gallon of soy 
milk for a year.  Once the problem was identified he quit drinking the soy 
milk and the boobs went away.  The interwebs are connecting that story to 
this story.


But at the bottom of that abstract, they equate a soy based burger with a 
dose of birth control.  That sounds like something that would not be good 
for most of us.


-Original Message- 
From: Adam Moffett

Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 7:13 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT preserve and protect our precious bodily fluids

If you look at the scale on the graph.  It's well beyond "on par".   In
sheer quantity the estrogen supplement fits within the margin of error
on the soy burger.

but it's plant estrogen, not human estrogen.  The effect on a human
is not the same.  The effect on humans is also not universal.
Ethnicities who've been eating soy a long time don't see as much effect
as a Caucasian for example, and women of different ages respond
differently.  Sometimes the soy estrogen bonds to estrogen receptors in
humans, but the effect can be either an increase or decrease in estrogen
effects (i.e. it bonded to the receptor and had a real effect, or it
bonded to the receptor and blocked the human estrogen from having it's
effect). In younger humans it's usually a decrease in the effect of
their natural human estrogen.

Anyway if the Impossible Whopper gave someone man-boobs it's because
they eat too much Burger King.  It's more likely to have the opposite
effect up until your of an age where you're not making much of your
natural hormones anymore.  So be more manly. Eat soy.*

-Adam


*I don't eat soy because it's gross.


On 1/5/2020 7:23 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:
The whole thing is getting highly politicized, but that link is to what I 
consider a reputable US government food lab.  What I found disturbing is 
that the amount of estrogen is on par with a birth control pill.  I would 
think this would mess up both sexes.  I wouldn't think kids should be 
eating these things.


-Original Message- From: Ken Hohhof
Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2020 5:07 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT preserve and protect our precious bodily fluids

Huh?  Is this the impossible-whopper-gives-you-manboobs story?

Spanish speaking people love soy, they are always saying things like yo no 
soy marinero, soy capitan.



-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Sunday, January 5, 2020 5:33 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] OT preserve and protect our precious bodily fluids

Sci-hub.tw/10./1750-3841.14847

Damn... but I don’t eat soy so guess this isn’t the problem





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Re: [AFMUG] Heights Towers

[John Osmon]

Nothing wrong with aluminum if used correctly, but it has a very small
"endurance strength."  

Steel and other materials enjoy a load limit under which they will not
fail under repeated loading cycles -- Aluminum does not.

Aluminum will *always* eventually fail.

Good background:
   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_limit



On Mon, Jan 06, 2020 at 09:32:08AM -0500, Adam Moffett wrote:
> .because it's light, not because it's strong.
> 
> Aluminum flexes.  Structural steel has bounce too, but aluminum a
> lot more so.  It'll flex enough that climbers will comment on how
> much it moves.  Presumably it's safe if you stay within the load
> it's rated for, but the next scary thing is the rated load is going
> to be lower than steel, and it's very easy for someone to come along
> and add load without checking that.
> 
> Not saying aluminum is inherently bad, but you have to know it's
> limitations.
> 
> -Adam
> 
> 
> On 1/6/2020 9:24 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
> >Do you fly in aircraft? They are made of aluminum.
> >
> >On Jan 6, 2020, at 9:20 AM, Josh Luthman
> >mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>Aluminum...no thanks.
> >>
> >>Josh Luthman
> >>Office: 937-552-2340
> >>Direct: 937-552-2343
> >>1100 Wayne St
> >>Suite 1337
> >>Troy, OH 45373
> >>
> >>
> >>On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 2:30 PM Matt Hoppes
> >> >>> wrote:
> >>
> >>Has anyone heard of this company before?
> >>
> >>http://www.heightstowers.com/home.html
> >>
> >>A customer suggested them for use for a low windloading situation.
> >>
> >>I've never heard of them.
> >>
> >>-- AF mailing list
> >>AF@af.afmug.com 
> >>http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> >>
> >>-- 
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> >>AF@af.afmug.com 
> >>http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> >

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Re: [AFMUG] Heights Towers

[dave via AF]

Just started looking at these for end users to have at their home to 
even get service or improve on what they have.
Single dish or radio perfect for a max of 80' if needed. For the most 
part we see around 40 and 50' for LOS in my part of the woods.



On 1/3/20 1:29 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:

Has anyone heard of this company before?

http://www.heightstowers.com/home.html

A customer suggested them for use for a low windloading situation.

I've never heard of them.



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Re: [AFMUG] Heights Towers

[dave via AF]

ALSO because PHYSICS LOL!


On 1/6/20 8:32 AM, Adam Moffett wrote:


.because it's light, not because it's strong.

Aluminum flexes.  Structural steel has bounce too, but aluminum a lot 
more so.  It'll flex enough that climbers will comment on how much it 
moves.  Presumably it's safe if you stay within the load it's rated 
for, but the next scary thing is the rated load is going to be lower 
than steel, and it's very easy for someone to come along and add load 
without checking that.


Not saying aluminum is inherently bad, but you have to know it's 
limitations.


-Adam


On 1/6/2020 9:24 AM, Matt Hoppes wrote:

Do you fly in aircraft? They are made of aluminum.

On Jan 6, 2020, at 9:20 AM, Josh Luthman > wrote:



Aluminum...no thanks.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Fri, Jan 3, 2020 at 2:30 PM Matt Hoppes 
> wrote:


Has anyone heard of this company before?

http://www.heightstowers.com/home.html

A customer suggested them for use for a low windloading situation.

I've never heard of them.

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Re: [AFMUG] Company Valuation

[Brian Webster]

That all depends on the underlying ground lease. If there are terms
associated with the lease then they can be considered a liability even after
you take the tower down. One could also consider the tower a possible a
possible commercial real estate venture if it's has any other tenants and/or
if it has ability to take on more tower load in the form of other paying
tenants. The tenant potential depends a lot on the market need. WISP towers
typically are in rural areas with low wireless demand for other technologies
so the reality is the commercial real estate value is low. Depending on the
zoning regulations in an area though the value could be high, meaning that
an existing tower may have more value even if it has to be rebuilt based on
the fact that it has an existing zoning approval. IF zoning regulations are
not that strict, it's value is little to none because it would be cheaper
and easier for a tenant to build one that already meets their loading needs
than to rebuild yours.

 

Short answer to the enhanced value to the business is "it depends". The list
of factors I have listed are but a few. As others have mentioned the take
down value it little to nothing especially looking at the expense of the
take down itself, and of course then if the tower isn't there how the heck
would you have any customers for which they just paid you for? The rule of
the valuation at say 1.5 has typically factored in all things like OPEX and
towers and office space, vehicles etc. Y can't just try to single out one
aspect of the business and say it is worth "x" when they have already
created a valuation. I get trying to bump up the value of the business
trying to pump up the perceived value of various aspects, but the concept of
the take down value of an operating wireless company of a tower seems the
wrong way to call out some of those extra values. A tower with other rent
paying customers is a totally different animal though.

 

 

Thank you,

Brian Webster

www.wirelessmapping.com

 

 

 

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of CBB - Jay Fuller
Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 10:55 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Cc: memb...@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Company Valuation

 

 

guess i am amazed by these responses but this is why i asked.  i argued the
towers can be taken down and the steel sold and they can be converted to
cash, therefore, they have more value.

 

maybe not

 

 

- Original Message - 

From: Jesse DuPont   

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group   

Cc: memb...@wispa.org 

Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 9:48 AM

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Company Valuation

 

My 1.7 cents worth - perhaps even less - of an opinion is "maybe," but
generally, no. The amount of cash you'd get out of taking down the towers
doesn't seem to be anywhere near their replacement value by the time you
take into account deconstruction in a reusable way. Besides, the revenue the
business generates is 100% dependent on them (if you're wireless only). In
the end, the revenue the business generates today, with all past expenses,
is the revenue. In other words, whether you have $3.6M in towers or $600K in
towers is kind of irrelevant because the revenue is what it is. Even if you
had a significant income from tower rent to other lessors, that income is
still part of you revenue. There might be a limited argument that if you
also owned the land they're on, there is additional worth there because it's
real property, but unless that property were in a high value location, its
value is still only related to the revenue it generates.

Jesse DuPont

Network Architect
email: jesse.dup...@celeritycorp.net
Celerity Networks LLC

Celerity Broadband LLC
Like us! facebook.com/celeritynetworksllc



Like us! facebook.com/celeritybroadband
 
 

On 1/6/20 8:07 AM, CBB - Jay Fuller wrote:

 

Lets say for easy math purposes you bill approximately 1.5 million annually.

 

I've heard 1.5 times annual revenue thrown around for a valuation purpose.
There is a lot more to this figure but it's a place to start.

 

So, if your company billed 1.5 million, you'd say your valuation was around
$2.25 million.

 

If you had 90 towers on your network - and you owned 60 of them (the steel,
not the land they're on) , would you consider your network

worth more than if you rented all 90?

 

My take on this is yes, they could all be taken down and converted to cash,
so the fact we own towers vs. rent them makes our network

more valuable.

 

What say you?

 

Thanks.

 

 





 

  _  

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Re: [AFMUG] Company Valuation

[chuck]

Revenue has no bearing on value.  Say you have $1 billion in revenue but are 
spending $2 billion to provide the service thus requiring an additional billion 
from investors each year.  What is the value of that company?  Think Movie 
Pass.  Think Uber.  Lots of public companies run at a loss hoping to eventually 
become profitable.  

There are multiple methods of valuing a company.  
The most common is the earnings multiple.  Or Multiple of Cash Flows.  

5X EBIDTA  

What is your net income (minus depreciation, taxes and financed equipment 
payments).   Basically gross profit minus SG&A expenses.  Multiply that by 5 
and you have a starting point.  In other words, how much cash is it throwing 
off.  What is the earning power of the company.  

You can also do a discounted cash flow method/net present value based on future 
cash flows.  Say I give you $1M for your company and it runs in the same manner 
that it has been running.  What is my annual rate of return on that investment? 
 And you must account for depreciation and taxes and interest and equipment 
payments etc when doing it in this manner because your assets are worth less 
money each year.  At the end of the period you use (say 10 years) did you get a 
decent return on the investment and is your principle still intact?

From: CBB - Jay Fuller 
Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 8:07 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Cc: memb...@wispa.org 
Subject: [AFMUG] Company Valuation


Lets say for easy math purposes you bill approximately 1.5 million annually.

I've heard 1.5 times annual revenue thrown around for a valuation purpose.  
There is a lot more to this figure but it's a place to start.

So, if your company billed 1.5 million, you'd say your valuation was around 
$2.25 million.

If you had 90 towers on your network - and you owned 60 of them (the steel, not 
the land they're on) , would you consider your network
worth more than if you rented all 90?

My take on this is yes, they could all be taken down and converted to cash, so 
the fact we own towers vs. rent them makes our network
more valuable.

What say you?

Thanks.





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Re: [AFMUG] Heights Towers

[chuck]

Aluminum costs more than steel from the standpoint of a fabricator.  Being more 
expensive and weaker, not sure where aluminum towers have a place in the world 
other than COWs and things like that.  

From: dave via AF 
Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 7:35 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Cc: dave 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Heights Towers

Just started looking at these for end users to have at their home to even get 
service or improve on what they have.
Single dish or radio perfect for a max of 80' if needed. For the most part we 
see around 40 and 50' for LOS in my part of the woods.




On 1/3/20 1:29 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:

  Has anyone heard of this company before? 

  http://www.heightstowers.com/home.html 

  A customer suggested them for use for a low windloading situation. 

  I've never heard of them. 







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[AFMUG] Interesting product

[Jaime Solorza]

https://rajant.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Rajant_SpecSheet_LX5.pdf
Jaime Solorza
Wireless Systems Architect
915-861-1390
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Re: [AFMUG] OT preserve and protect our precious bodily fluids

[Jaime Solorza]

lol
Jaime Solorza
Wireless Systems Architect
915-861-1390


On Sun, Jan 5, 2020 at 5:08 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

> Huh?  Is this the impossible-whopper-gives-you-manboobs story?
>
> Spanish speaking people love soy, they are always saying things like yo no
> soy marinero, soy capitan.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
> Sent: Sunday, January 5, 2020 5:33 PM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: [AFMUG] OT preserve and protect our precious bodily fluids
>
> Sci-hub.tw/10./1750-3841.14847
>
> Damn... but I don’t eat soy so guess this isn’t the problem
>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Heights Towers

[Mathew Howard]

I'm really wondering why you would ever want an aluminum tower (other than
COW type stuff, where weight is important). Seems to me that you're almost
always going to be better off with a light duty steel tower. I can't
imaging those things are cheaper than those cheap sheet metal things...

On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 10:35 AM  wrote:

> Aluminum costs more than steel from the standpoint of a fabricator.  Being
> more expensive and weaker, not sure where aluminum towers have a place in
> the world other than COWs and things like that.
>
> *From:* dave via AF
> *Sent:* Monday, January 6, 2020 7:35 AM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Cc:* dave
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Heights Towers
>
> Just started looking at these for end users to have at their home to even
> get service or improve on what they have.
> Single dish or radio perfect for a max of 80' if needed. For the most part
> we see around 40 and 50' for LOS in my part of the woods.
>
>
> On 1/3/20 1:29 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
>
> Has anyone heard of this company before?
>
> http://www.heightstowers.com/home.html
>
> A customer suggested them for use for a low windloading situation.
>
> I've never heard of them.
>
>
> --
> --
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> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Company Valuation

[CBB - Jay Fuller]

Good discussion. I'll have to play with some numbers

  - Original Message - 
  From: ch...@wbmfg.com 
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 10:33 AM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Company Valuation


  Revenue has no bearing on value.  Say you have $1 billion in revenue but are 
spending $2 billion to provide the service thus requiring an additional billion 
from investors each year.  What is the value of that company?  Think Movie 
Pass.  Think Uber.  Lots of public companies run at a loss hoping to eventually 
become profitable.  

  There are multiple methods of valuing a company.  
  The most common is the earnings multiple.  Or Multiple of Cash Flows.  

  5X EBIDTA  

  What is your net income (minus depreciation, taxes and financed equipment 
payments).   Basically gross profit minus SG&A expenses.  Multiply that by 5 
and you have a starting point.  In other words, how much cash is it throwing 
off.  What is the earning power of the company.  

  You can also do a discounted cash flow method/net present value based on 
future cash flows.  Say I give you $1M for your company and it runs in the same 
manner that it has been running.  What is my annual rate of return on that 
investment?  And you must account for depreciation and taxes and interest and 
equipment payments etc when doing it in this manner because your assets are 
worth less money each year.  At the end of the period you use (say 10 years) 
did you get a decent return on the investment and is your principle still 
intact?

  From: CBB - Jay Fuller 
  Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 8:07 AM
  To: af@af.afmug.com 
  Cc: memb...@wispa.org 
  Subject: [AFMUG] Company Valuation


  Lets say for easy math purposes you bill approximately 1.5 million annually.

  I've heard 1.5 times annual revenue thrown around for a valuation purpose.  
There is a lot more to this figure but it's a place to start.

  So, if your company billed 1.5 million, you'd say your valuation was around 
$2.25 million.

  If you had 90 towers on your network - and you owned 60 of them (the steel, 
not the land they're on) , would you consider your network
  worth more than if you rented all 90?

  My take on this is yes, they could all be taken down and converted to cash, 
so the fact we own towers vs. rent them makes our network
  more valuable.

  What say you?

  Thanks.




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Re: [AFMUG] Company Valuation

[Steve Jones]

some WISP needs to go on shark tank, just to see what they say


On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 11:08 AM CBB - Jay Fuller 
wrote:

>
> Good discussion. I'll have to play with some numbers
>
>
> - Original Message -
> *From:* ch...@wbmfg.com
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Sent:* Monday, January 6, 2020 10:33 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Company Valuation
>
> Revenue has no bearing on value.  Say you have $1 billion in revenue but
> are spending $2 billion to provide the service thus requiring an additional
> billion from investors each year.  What is the value of that company?
> Think Movie Pass.  Think Uber.  Lots of public companies run at a loss
> hoping to eventually become profitable.
>
> There are multiple methods of valuing a company.
> The most common is the earnings multiple.  Or Multiple of Cash Flows.
>
> 5X EBIDTA
>
> What is your net income (minus depreciation, taxes and financed equipment
> payments).   Basically gross profit minus SG&A expenses.  Multiply that by
> 5 and you have a starting point.  In other words, how much cash is it
> throwing off.  What is the earning power of the company.
>
> You can also do a discounted cash flow method/net present value based on
> future cash flows.  Say I give you $1M for your company and it runs in the
> same manner that it has been running.  What is my annual rate of return on
> that investment?  And you must account for depreciation and taxes and
> interest and equipment payments etc when doing it in this manner because
> your assets are worth less money each year.  At the end of the period you
> use (say 10 years) did you get a decent return on the investment and is
> your principle still intact?
>
> *From:* CBB - Jay Fuller
> *Sent:* Monday, January 6, 2020 8:07 AM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Cc:* memb...@wispa.org
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Company Valuation
>
>
> Lets say for easy math purposes you bill approximately 1.5 million
> annually.
>
> I've heard 1.5 times annual revenue thrown around for a valuation
> purpose.  There is a lot more to this figure but it's a place to start.
>
> So, if your company billed 1.5 million, you'd say your valuation was
> around $2.25 million.
>
> If you had 90 towers on your network - and you owned 60 of them (the
> steel, not the land they're on) , would you consider your network
> worth more than if you rented all 90?
>
> My take on this is yes, they could all be taken down and converted to
> cash, so the fact we own towers vs. rent them makes our network
> more valuable.
>
> What say you?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
> --
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
>
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Re: [AFMUG] mass GPS issues

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

Update:

Over the weekend our GNSS module supplier confirmed that simulation shows
that this problem was definitely caused by the GLONASS rollover.

If you have a receiver with these issues still happening a power cycle
should  fix it until the end of 2023.  Some additional rollover testing is
occurring as well so this statement might change.

We're still determining what the long term solution will be

On PacketFlux gear, all of the affected receivers should be labeled
revision J, and should have a J in the serial number.

Revisions I and earlier and K should not be affected.





On Thu, Jan 2, 2020, 5:31 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

> The crucial question seems to be, do we mark our calendars for 4 years
> from now, midnight Moscow time, New Years Eve 2023?  So we can power cycle
> a bunch of GPS receivers?
>
>
>
> Or is there some kind of retroactive fix that can be applied?
>
>
>
> Or do we have 4 years to physically replace the devices?  If so, with
> what?  I guess it’s not the end of the world to replace a bunch of
> Syncboxes on towers if we have 4 years to do it, as long as we have a
> replacement device available.
>
>
>
> I’d like to think we could log into a Sync/Power/RackInjector and squirt
> new firmware into the attached GPS receiver, but I doubt it.  Same with a
> Cambium UGPS.  Not sure about ePMP.
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Forrest Christian
> (List Account)
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 2, 2020 7:12 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] mass GPS issues
>
>
>
> Yes, and it happens a lot apparently.   I.E. it looked weird, but it
> wasn't.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 6:05 PM Mike Hammett  wrote:
>
> Was the weird clock update from GPS PRN 29 sent about 20 minutes before
> midnight Moscow time just coincidence?
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
>
> *From: *"Forrest Christian (List Account)" 
> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> *Sent: *Thursday, January 2, 2020 6:53:14 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] mass GPS issues
>
> For us, we have only been shipping GPS+GLONASS since late in 2017 or 2018,
> so this is the first GLONASS rollover for us.Remember this is still
> speculation here, but I am starting to feel like this most likely will turn
> out to be the underlying cause.
>
>
>
> All of us with the issue seem to be running AXN5.1.1 which was built at
> the end of 2017.  This might be specific to that firmware version/build.
>
>
>
> There are lots of GPS modules out there of varying quality, but few which
> are really suitable for 1PPS synchronization.   Believe me, I've evaluated
> enough of them to know.  I even evaluated a GPS module earlier this year
> which was specifically targeted to timing applications (including survey-in
> and single-satellite operation) and discovered that it was far worse
> timing-wise than the ones we're using.  The mediatek based modules seem to
> be a good mix of low cost and really good 1PPS performance.   Pretty much
> any others are multiples of the price.  This is probably why we've all
> ended up using the same modules.
>
>
>
> But if you're looking for a cheap GPS receiver and don't care about 1PPS
> you might end up with something else.And probably a different firmware
> build.
>
>
>
> TOTAL SPECULATION:  One suspicion I have is that the behavior of the
> device might be related to which constellation it is preferring, because if
> GLONASS is saying 2016 and GPS is saying 2020 (according to your broken
> firmware), then you might find a module which thinks it's 2016 based on
> GLONASS  but is getting these confusing signals from GPS which says it's
> 2019/2020.   An alternate module that is convinced it's 2019/2020 might not
> be happy about GLONASS trying to say it's 2016.   The behavior would
> probably have to be different in both cases and possibly would alternate
> between the behaviors if one was not preferred for some RF reason.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 5:14 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:
>
> I’m not sure it’s true that only Cambium products were affected.  It
> appears to be more a certain 3rd party GPS+GLONASS receiver module that
> Packetflux uses in their latest production of Syncboxes and that Cambium
> apparently uses in their latest UGPS production.  Are Packetflux sync
> products used to time anything but Cambium?  Probably not.  Certainly some
> other manu

Re: [AFMUG] Company Valuation

[Chuck Hogg]

If this is the case, I have towers you can come get for free ;)
Seriously.  You just need the crane and everything to come get them.  By
the time you take it down, it's worth less than a new one and the cost of
taking it down would be more than the value of what it's worth IMHO.  I
know of a large SSV if someone wants to come get it...but it'll cost you a
minimum of a $5k to get the crane there.

WISP towers in general have no value.  They are network elements just like
a switch or router.  Most WISP towers are in need of repair or are
overloaded.  By the time you take them down and scrap them, that's what
their value is IMO.

If you had 90 SSV towers with lots of available windloading and can handle
a few carriers...then you have some value.

YMMV

On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 10:08 AM CBB - Jay Fuller 
wrote:

>
> Lets say for easy math purposes you bill approximately 1.5 million
> annually.
>
> I've heard 1.5 times annual revenue thrown around for a valuation
> purpose.  There is a lot more to this figure but it's a place to start.
>
> So, if your company billed 1.5 million, you'd say your valuation was
> around $2.25 million.
>
> If you had 90 towers on your network - and you owned 60 of them (the
> steel, not the land they're on) , would you consider your network
> worth more than if you rented all 90?
>
> My take on this is yes, they could all be taken down and converted to
> cash, so the fact we own towers vs. rent them makes our network
> more valuable.
>
> What say you?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Heights Towers

[Ken Hohhof]

I get ads about aluminum towers from these guys on occasion:

http://www.texastowers.com/

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of dave via AF
Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 8:36 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Cc: dave 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Heights Towers

 

Just started looking at these for end users to have at their home to even get 
service or improve on what they have.
Single dish or radio perfect for a max of 80' if needed. For the most part we 
see around 40 and 50' for LOS in my part of the woods.




On 1/3/20 1:29 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:

Has anyone heard of this company before? 

http://www.heightstowers.com/home.html 

A customer suggested them for use for a low windloading situation. 

I've never heard of them. 

 

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Re: [AFMUG] Company Valuation

[Tyson Burris]

I disagree.

Revenue minus expenses is profit.  Finding a WISP who expenses correctly can be 
difficult.  Even I pull my hair out on all the expenses and various ways you 
can expense items.

Profit times X is the selling price.

I was just speaking with my wife about this and complaining about how high our 
profit margins are.  The more profits the more taxes paid.
So ideally you want to expense out as much as possible, take dividends, pay 
yourself more etc. so profits aren't high.

The problem is a buyer wants to see your profits so it's a nightmare of a  fine 
line.  Taxes vs. Selling.





Tyson Burris, President
Internet Communications Inc.
739 Commerce Dr.
Franklin, IN 46131

Daytime # 317-738-0320
Cell/Direct # 317-412-1540
Online: www.surfici.net

[ICI]
What can ICI do for you?

Broadband Wireless - PtP/PtMP Solutions - WiMax - Mesh Wifi/Hotzones - IP 
Security - Fiber - Tower - Infrastructure.

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail is intended for the
addressee shown. It contains information that is
confidential and protected from disclosure. Any review,
dissemination or use of this transmission or its contents by
unauthorized organizations or individuals is strictly
prohibited.

From: AF  On Behalf Of CBB - Jay Fuller
Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 10:08 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Cc: memb...@wispa.org
Subject: [AFMUG] Company Valuation


Lets say for easy math purposes you bill approximately 1.5 million annually.

I've heard 1.5 times annual revenue thrown around for a valuation purpose.  
There is a lot more to this figure but it's a place to start.

So, if your company billed 1.5 million, you'd say your valuation was around 
$2.25 million.

If you had 90 towers on your network - and you owned 60 of them (the steel, not 
the land they're on) , would you consider your network
worth more than if you rented all 90?

My take on this is yes, they could all be taken down and converted to cash, so 
the fact we own towers vs. rent them makes our network
more valuable.

What say you?

Thanks.


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Re: [AFMUG] Company Valuation

[chuck]

Yes, and we all probably do it the same way.  No point in paying more to the 
IRS if you can buy some more gear and give some bonuses.  But you can point 
that out in the negotiation.  Cash converted to assets and growth of assets and 
net shareholders equity is something that is not ignored.  

Sometimes a business is simply worth the net sharholders equity.  

From: Tyson Burris 
Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 10:24 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: memb...@wispa.org 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Company Valuation

I disagree.

 

Revenue minus expenses is profit.  Finding a WISP who expenses correctly can be 
difficult.  Even I pull my hair out on all the expenses and various ways you 
can expense items.

 

Profit times X is the selling price.

 

I was just speaking with my wife about this and complaining about how high our 
profit margins are.  The more profits the more taxes paid.

So ideally you want to expense out as much as possible, take dividends, pay 
yourself more etc. so profits aren’t high.

 

The problem is a buyer wants to see your profits so it’s a nightmare of a  fine 
line.  Taxes vs. Selling.

 

 

 

 

 

Tyson Burris, President 
Internet Communications Inc. 
739 Commerce Dr. 
Franklin, IN 46131 
  
Daytime # 317-738-0320 
Cell/Direct # 317-412-1540 
Online: www.surfici.net 

 



What can ICI do for you? 


Broadband Wireless - PtP/PtMP Solutions - WiMax - Mesh Wifi/Hotzones - IP 
Security - Fiber - Tower - Infrastructure. 
  
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail is intended for the 
addressee shown. It contains information that is 
confidential and protected from disclosure. Any review, 
dissemination or use of this transmission or its contents by 
unauthorized organizations or individuals is strictly 
prohibited. 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of CBB - Jay Fuller
Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 10:08 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Cc: memb...@wispa.org
Subject: [AFMUG] Company Valuation

 

 

Lets say for easy math purposes you bill approximately 1.5 million annually.

 

I've heard 1.5 times annual revenue thrown around for a valuation purpose.  
There is a lot more to this figure but it's a place to start.

 

So, if your company billed 1.5 million, you'd say your valuation was around 
$2.25 million.

 

If you had 90 towers on your network - and you owned 60 of them (the steel, not 
the land they're on) , would you consider your network

worth more than if you rented all 90?

 

My take on this is yes, they could all be taken down and converted to cash, so 
the fact we own towers vs. rent them makes our network

more valuable.

 

What say you?

 

Thanks.

 

 




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Re: [AFMUG] Company Valuation

[CBB - Jay Fuller]

I had hoped you would chime in.  Thanks Chuck.

  - Original Message - 
  From: Chuck Hogg 
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Cc: Members 
  Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 11:19 AM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Company Valuation


  If this is the case, I have towers you can come get for free ;)  Seriously.  
You just need the crane and everything to come get them.  By the time you take 
it down, it's worth less than a new one and the cost of taking it down would be 
more than the value of what it's worth IMHO.  I know of a large SSV if someone 
wants to come get it...but it'll cost you a minimum of a $5k to get the crane 
there.


  WISP towers in general have no value.  They are network elements just like a 
switch or router.  Most WISP towers are in need of repair or are overloaded.  
By the time you take them down and scrap them, that's what their value is IMO.


  If you had 90 SSV towers with lots of available windloading and can handle a 
few carriers...then you have some value.


  YMMV


  On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 10:08 AM CBB - Jay Fuller  
wrote:


Lets say for easy math purposes you bill approximately 1.5 million annually.

I've heard 1.5 times annual revenue thrown around for a valuation purpose.  
There is a lot more to this figure but it's a place to start.

So, if your company billed 1.5 million, you'd say your valuation was around 
$2.25 million.

If you had 90 towers on your network - and you owned 60 of them (the steel, 
not the land they're on) , would you consider your network
worth more than if you rented all 90?

My take on this is yes, they could all be taken down and converted to cash, 
so the fact we own towers vs. rent them makes our network
more valuable.

What say you?

Thanks.


-- 
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AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com



--


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Re: [AFMUG] Heights Towers

[Josh Baird]

We have 2 or 3 of the Texas Towers freestanding aluminum towers ranging
from 60-90ft.  Seem to be fine for light loads, although I'm not the one
climbing them :)

On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 12:21 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

> I get ads about aluminum towers from these guys on occasion:
>
> http://www.texastowers.com/
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *dave via AF
> *Sent:* Monday, January 6, 2020 8:36 AM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Cc:* dave 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Heights Towers
>
>
>
> Just started looking at these for end users to have at their home to even
> get service or improve on what they have.
> Single dish or radio perfect for a max of 80' if needed. For the most part
> we see around 40 and 50' for LOS in my part of the woods.
>
>
> On 1/3/20 1:29 PM, Matt Hoppes wrote:
>
> Has anyone heard of this company before?
>
> http://www.heightstowers.com/home.html
>
> A customer suggested them for use for a low windloading situation.
>
> I've never heard of them.
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Company Valuation

[CBB - Jay Fuller]

I agree.  I think you have to write up what a buyer "could make" from your 
network ; not necessarily what you are making.
That was done for us a few acquisitions ago to help us "see" what we were 
buying.  

Truth be told, we weren't really looking to sell.  We were looking for some 
partners on a project or two and one company
who looked at us made us an offer.  We hadn't even figured up an asking price 
yet.  This was a sticking point that came up.
I would say negotiations are still ongoing.


  - Original Message - 
  From: Tyson Burris 
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Cc: memb...@wispa.org 
  Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 11:24 AM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Company Valuation


  I disagree.

   

  Revenue minus expenses is profit.  Finding a WISP who expenses correctly can 
be difficult.  Even I pull my hair out on all the expenses and various ways you 
can expense items.

   

  Profit times X is the selling price.

   

  I was just speaking with my wife about this and complaining about how high 
our profit margins are.  The more profits the more taxes paid.

  So ideally you want to expense out as much as possible, take dividends, pay 
yourself more etc. so profits aren't high.

   

  The problem is a buyer wants to see your profits so it's a nightmare of a  
fine line.  Taxes vs. Selling.

   

   

   

   

   

  Tyson Burris, President 
  Internet Communications Inc. 
  739 Commerce Dr. 
  Franklin, IN 46131 

  Daytime # 317-738-0320 
  Cell/Direct # 317-412-1540 
  Online: www.surfici.net 

   



  What can ICI do for you? 


  Broadband Wireless - PtP/PtMP Solutions - WiMax - Mesh Wifi/Hotzones - IP 
Security - Fiber - Tower - Infrastructure. 

  CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail is intended for the 
  addressee shown. It contains information that is 
  confidential and protected from disclosure. Any review, 
  dissemination or use of this transmission or its contents by 
  unauthorized organizations or individuals is strictly 
  prohibited. 

   

  From: AF  On Behalf Of CBB - Jay Fuller
  Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 10:08 AM
  To: af@af.afmug.com
  Cc: memb...@wispa.org
  Subject: [AFMUG] Company Valuation

   

   

  Lets say for easy math purposes you bill approximately 1.5 million annually.

   

  I've heard 1.5 times annual revenue thrown around for a valuation purpose.  
There is a lot more to this figure but it's a place to start.

   

  So, if your company billed 1.5 million, you'd say your valuation was around 
$2.25 million.

   

  If you had 90 towers on your network - and you owned 60 of them (the steel, 
not the land they're on) , would you consider your network

  worth more than if you rented all 90?

   

  My take on this is yes, they could all be taken down and converted to cash, 
so the fact we own towers vs. rent them makes our network

  more valuable.

   

  What say you?

   

  Thanks.

   

   



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Re: [AFMUG] OT preserve and protect our precious bodily fluids

[Bill Prince]

That looks legit, except that it is from Taiwan. The actual government 
has different information, as do several legitimate medical organizations.



bp


On 1/5/2020 3:33 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:

Sci-hub.tw/10./1750-3841.14847

Damn... but I don’t eat soy so guess this isn’t the problem





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Re: [AFMUG] mass GPS issues

[Andreas Wiatowski]

Thanks Forrest!  Hopefully we can get a patch in place before then… or an 
alternative path.



Internet.
​Phone.
​TV.
Andreas Wiatowski
CEO/Founder
Silo
1-866-727-4138, ext 600 |
andr...@silo.ca
silo.ca



From: AF  on behalf of "Forrest Christian (List 
Account)" 
Reply-To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Date: Monday, January 6, 2020 at 12:18 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mass GPS issues

[EXTERNAL]
Update:

Over the weekend our GNSS module supplier confirmed that simulation shows that 
this problem was definitely caused by the GLONASS rollover.

If you have a receiver with these issues still happening a power cycle should  
fix it until the end of 2023.  Some additional rollover testing is occurring as 
well so this statement might change.

We're still determining what the long term solution will be

On PacketFlux gear, all of the affected receivers should be labeled revision J, 
and should have a J in the serial number.

Revisions I and earlier and K should not be affected.





On Thu, Jan 2, 2020, 5:31 PM Ken Hohhof 
mailto:af...@kwisp.com>> wrote:
The crucial question seems to be, do we mark our calendars for 4 years from 
now, midnight Moscow time, New Years Eve 2023?  So we can power cycle a bunch 
of GPS receivers?

Or is there some kind of retroactive fix that can be applied?

Or do we have 4 years to physically replace the devices?  If so, with what?  I 
guess it’s not the end of the world to replace a bunch of Syncboxes on towers 
if we have 4 years to do it, as long as we have a replacement device available.

I’d like to think we could log into a Sync/Power/RackInjector and squirt new 
firmware into the attached GPS receiver, but I doubt it.  Same with a Cambium 
UGPS.  Not sure about ePMP.

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Forrest Christian (List Account)
Sent: Thursday, January 2, 2020 7:12 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mass GPS issues

Yes, and it happens a lot apparently.   I.E. it looked weird, but it wasn't.



On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 6:05 PM Mike Hammett 
mailto:af...@ics-il.net>> wrote:
Was the weird clock update from GPS PRN 29 sent about 20 minutes before 
midnight Moscow time just coincidence?


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
[Image removed by sender.][Image removed by 
sender.][Image 
removed by 
sender.][Image
 removed by sender.]
Midwest Internet Exchange
[Image removed by sender.][Image removed by 
sender.][Image 
removed by sender.]
The Brothers WISP
[Image removed by sender.][Image 
removed by sender.]




From: "Forrest Christian (List Account)" 
mailto:li...@packetflux.com>>
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Sent: Thursday, January 2, 2020 6:53:14 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] mass GPS issues
For us, we have only been shipping GPS+GLONASS since late in 2017 or 2018, so 
this is the first GLONASS rollover for us.Remember this is still 
speculation here, but I am starting to feel like this most likely will turn out 
to be the underlying cause.

All of us with the issue seem to be running AXN5.1.1 which was built at the end 
of 2017.  This might be specific to that firmware version/build.

There are lots of GPS modules out there of varying quality, but few which are 
really suitable for 1PPS synchronization.   Believe me, I've evaluated enough 
of them to know.  I even evaluated a GPS module earlier this year which was 
specifically targeted to timing applications (including survey-in and 
single-satellite operation) and discovered that it was far worse timing-wise 
than the ones we're using.  The mediatek based modules seem to be a good mix of 
low cost and really good 1PPS performance.   Pretty much any others are 
multiples of the price.  This is probably why we've all ended up using the same 
modules.

But if you're looking for a cheap GPS receiver and don't care about 1PPS you 
might end up with something else.And probably a different firmware build.

TOTAL SPECULATION:  One suspicion I have is that the behavior of the device 
might be related to which constellation it is preferring, because if GLONASS is 
saying 2016 and GPS is saying 2020 (according to your broken firmware), then 
you might find a module which thinks it's 2016 based on GLONASS  but is getting 
these confusing signals from GPS which says it's 2019/2020.   An alternate 
module that is convinced it's 2019/2020 might not be ha

[AFMUG] Puerto Rico Earthquake

[Sean Heskett]

Gino,

I hope everyone is ok in PR.  Let’s us know if you need help with anything!

-Sean
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Re: [AFMUG] Puerto Rico Earthquake

[Sean Heskett]

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/americas/article238996843.html


On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 5:36 PM Sean Heskett  wrote:

> Gino,
>
> I hope everyone is ok in PR.  Let’s us know if you need help with anything!
>
> -Sean
>
>
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[AFMUG] WISPA email list

[chuck]

I thought the WISPA email list was going to be shut off.  But just now I got an 
email.  Like to delete my folder once it is defunct.  -- 
AF mailing list
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Re: [AFMUG] WISPA email list

[Ken Hohhof]

You mean the main members list?  Where did you hear it was going away?

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 7:55 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] WISPA email list

 

I thought the WISPA email list was going to be shut off.  But just now I got
an email.  Like to delete my folder once it is defunct.  

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Re: [AFMUG] Puerto Rico Earthquake

[TJ Trout]

Hope everything is ok Gino, let us know if we can help in any way?

On Mon, Jan 6, 2020, 4:37 PM Sean Heskett  wrote:

> Gino,
>
> I hope everyone is ok in PR.  Let’s us know if you need help with anything!
>
> -Sean
>
> --
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>
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Re: [AFMUG] WISPA email list

[chuck]

I got emails from Trina about their new whizbang forum that will be taking over 
everything.  I thought it also said they will be shutting down the email list.  
But I may have not read it very carefully.  

From: Ken Hohhof 
Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 7:10 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISPA email list

You mean the main members list?  Where did you hear it was going away?

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of ch...@wbmfg.com
Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 7:55 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] WISPA email list

 

I thought the WISPA email list was going to be shut off.  But just now I got an 
email.  Like to delete my folder once it is defunct.  




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Re: [AFMUG] WISPA email list

[Steve Utick]

>From the E-Mail Trina sent out:   " In the near future we’ll be launching
additional features of the new system. One of these will be forums that
will be replacing the WISPA Mailing Lists. For now, we are leaving the
Mailing Lists active. When we are close to launching the forums, we’ll let
everyone know. These should be a big upgrade in the way we all communicate
within the WISPA community."

On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 8:42 PM  wrote:

> I got emails from Trina about their new whizbang forum that will be taking
> over everything.  I thought it also said they will be shutting down the
> email list.  But I may have not read it very carefully.
>
> *From:* Ken Hohhof
> *Sent:* Monday, January 6, 2020 7:10 PM
> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WISPA email list
>
>
> You mean the main members list?  Where did you hear it was going away?
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *ch...@wbmfg.com
> *Sent:* Monday, January 6, 2020 7:55 PM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] WISPA email list
>
>
>
> I thought the WISPA email list was going to be shut off.  But just now I
> got an email.  Like to delete my folder once it is defunct.
>
> --
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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>
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Re: [AFMUG] WISPA email list

[Sean Heskett]

Forums suck

Glad we have animal farm :)



On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 9:03 PM Steve Utick  wrote:

> From the E-Mail Trina sent out:   " In the near future we’ll be launching
> additional features of the new system. One of these will be forums that
> will be replacing the WISPA Mailing Lists. For now, we are leaving the
> Mailing Lists active. When we are close to launching the forums, we’ll let
> everyone know. These should be a big upgrade in the way we all communicate
> within the WISPA community."
>
> On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 8:42 PM  wrote:
>
>> I got emails from Trina about their new whizbang forum that will be
>> taking over everything.  I thought it also said they will be shutting down
>> the email list.  But I may have not read it very carefully.
>>
>> *From:* Ken Hohhof
>> *Sent:* Monday, January 6, 2020 7:10 PM
>> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] WISPA email list
>>
>>
>> You mean the main members list?  Where did you hear it was going away?
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *ch...@wbmfg.com
>> *Sent:* Monday, January 6, 2020 7:55 PM
>> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] WISPA email list
>>
>>
>>
>> I thought the WISPA email list was going to be shut off.  But just now I
>> got an email.  Like to delete my folder once it is defunct.
>>
>> --
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
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AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] WISPA email list

[Daniel White]

Yes it is going away to a forum.  Personally not a fan myself but demand 
seems to be more for forums than the mailing lists.  Will also make some 
of the committee work that happens easier so I have been told.


Most of the day to day conversation happens on Facebook anymore... was 
the only reason I ever signed up.  Not sure what was so wrong about 
e-mail :-)


photograph  
Daniel White
Co-Founder & Managing Director of Operations
phone: +1 (702) 470-2766
direct:+1 (702) 470-2770

Ken Hohhof wrote on 1/6/20 19:10:


You mean the main members list?  Where did you hear it was going away?

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *ch...@wbmfg.com
*Sent:* Monday, January 6, 2020 7:55 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* [AFMUG] WISPA email list

I thought the WISPA email list was going to be shut off.  But just now 
I got an email.  Like to delete my folder once it is defunct.






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http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] WISPA email list

[Sean Heskett]

I don’t use the book of face so I’m unfamiliar.

I think wispa should offer every opportunity for us to communicate and not
limit it to just forums.  Forums are get for knowledge base/tech support
type stuff because you have   a threaded searchable archive.  But it’s a
repository of knowledge, not a communications platform for interactive
daily stuff.  I check wispa, animal farm and NANOG email lists multiple
times a day.  Cambium went to forums which makes sense for a solutions
provider so that they have the searchable database, but I go there maybe
monthly to check for new software or known issues.  But I’m not very active
in their community, mostly because I don’t have time to also go login and
check a forum.  Email is constantly flowing my way and I interact with it
all throughout the day.

One way to find out I guess is to gather some data.  Find out how many
messages are currently being sent and then look at the data after it’s
forums only.  My money is on a steep decline in engagement...I know
personally I won’t be on there.  Not because I don’t want to be there, but
it’s simply I don’t have the time to add yet another thing to go log into
and check to my daily life.

2 cents

-Sean

You can catch me on afmug (animal farm) or nanog

On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 10:21 PM Daniel White  wrote:

> Yes it is going away to a forum.  Personally not a fan myself but demand
> seems to be more for forums than the mailing lists.  Will also make some of
> the committee work that happens easier so I have been told.
>
> Most of the day to day conversation happens on Facebook anymore... was the
> only reason I ever signed up.  Not sure what was so wrong about e-mail :-)
>
> [image: photograph]
> Daniel White
> Co-Founder & Managing Director of Operations
> phone: +1 (702) 470-2766
> direct: +1 (702) 470-2770
> Ken Hohhof wrote on 1/6/20 19:10:
>
> You mean the main members list?  Where did you hear it was going away?
>
>
>
> *From:* AF   *On Behalf
> Of *ch...@wbmfg.com
> *Sent:* Monday, January 6, 2020 7:55 PM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] WISPA email list
>
>
>
> I thought the WISPA email list was going to be shut off.  But just now I
> got an email.  Like to delete my folder once it is defunct.
>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
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