subject:"\[AFMUG\] Water heaters"

Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-12-01 Thread Andrew Haninger

Lowe's sells AO Smith now, but I'm guessing that what is on the shelf is
"consumer quality" and a plumber buying whiolesale gets something a little
better, or they can. My dad and I installed mine (he's good for the 10%
discount. i'm not.). It is a little louder when heating than the old Rheem
and there is a "ping" a few seconds after a heating cycle finishes, but so
far so good. I'm just a single guy, so I'm not too hard on the things.

>From what I remember reading, there are probably three major manufacturers
of water heaters, and countless brand names. That makes it harder to say
that one brand is necessarily better than the next for much more than a few
years. I suppose it's one of those things where good installation and
maintenance can go a long way. Also good water. Generally, I think our city
water is on the better end.

Andy

On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 1:12 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

> I think the warranties are on the order of 5 years, but if you get lucky,
> they might last 20 years.  Especially if you drain them periodically and
> replace the anode when needed.
>
>
>
> Just based on my personal experience, don’t buy Rheem.  Although I do have
> a GE unit bought at Home Depot (had to get a replacement quick) and I
> believe those are made by Rheem.  I think plumbers are more likely to
> install something like AO Smith or Bradford, which are sold through
> wholesale channels so you won’t find them at retail stores.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *James Howard
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 1, 2020 11:47 AM
> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters
>
>
>
> At our last house we switched from LP to natural gas the year before we
> moved.  Our water heater was just under 20 years old and I was considering
> trying to convert it (apparently not an option for most LP models from that
> period) but the plumber talked me into replacing it since he said it wasn’t
> likely to last many more years and cost only slightly more than conversion
> anyway.   We hadn’t had any issues with it in the 8 years we’d been in that
> house.
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 1, 2020 11:35 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters
>
>
>
> Where are you getting 20 year water heaters?
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 10:48 AM Andrew Haninger  wrote:
>
> As I understand it, it is a glass lining, but it isn't perfect, so the
> water will eventually eat away at the steel tank. (Thank you Rich
> Trethewey). The anode rod prevents this and can be replaced to extend
> the life of the water heater, but it has to be replaced promptly and
> isn't a particularly easy job to do from what I've read/seen; I've
> never done it myself.
>
> My best guess is that hiring a plumber to come out and replace the
> anode would end up costing just as much as replacing a water heater
> every 20 years or so. You might be able to get one to last 50 years,
> but for what?
>
> Andy
>
> On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 11:37 AM Ken Hohhof  wrote:
> >
> > I thought they had a “glass” lining.  Which begs the question, why is an
> anode needed if the water doesn’t contact the steel.
> >
> >
> >
> > I suspect the glass is more like a baked on enamel or ceramic coating.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 1, 2020 10:14 AM
> > To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
> > Cc: Chuck McCown 
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters
> >
> >
> >
> > Water heaters are steel with a heavy galvanized coating.  So I presume
> the anode keeps the inside galvanizing in good shape.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 1, 2020 9:03 AM
> > To: af@af.afmug.com
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters
> >
> >
> >
> > Boats, outboard motors, water heaters. Most (all?) are made from zinc.
> On outboards we called them the sacrificial plate.
> >
> >
> >
> > bp
> >
> > 
> >
> > On 12/1/2020 6:43 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
> >
> > Boat anodes are zinc.  They form a self galvanizing electrolytic cell
> that heal any bare steel scratches in the hull coating.
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 1, 2020, at 3:39 AM, Forrest Christian (List Account) <
> li...@packetflux.com> wrote:
> >
> > 
> >
> > There's usually a bolt looking thing on the top whi

Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-12-01 Thread Ken Hohhof

I think the warranties are on the order of 5 years, but if you get lucky, they 
might last 20 years.  Especially if you drain them periodically and replace the 
anode when needed.

Just based on my personal experience, don’t buy Rheem.  Although I do have a GE 
unit bought at Home Depot (had to get a replacement quick) and I believe those 
are made by Rheem.  I think plumbers are more likely to install something like 
AO Smith or Bradford, which are sold through wholesale channels so you won’t 
find them at retail stores.

From: AF  On Behalf Of James Howard
Sent: Tuesday, December 1, 2020 11:47 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

At our last house we switched from LP to natural gas the year before we moved.  
Our water heater was just under 20 years old and I was considering trying to 
convert it (apparently not an option for most LP models from that period) but 
the plumber talked me into replacing it since he said it wasn’t likely to last 
many more years and cost only slightly more than conversion anyway.   We hadn’t 
had any issues with it in the 8 years we’d been in that house.

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Steve Jones
Sent: Tuesday, December 1, 2020 11:35 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

Where are you getting 20 year water heaters?

On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 10:48 AM Andrew Haninger mailto:ahan...@gmail.com> > wrote:

As I understand it, it is a glass lining, but it isn't perfect, so the
water will eventually eat away at the steel tank. (Thank you Rich
Trethewey). The anode rod prevents this and can be replaced to extend
the life of the water heater, but it has to be replaced promptly and
isn't a particularly easy job to do from what I've read/seen; I've
never done it myself.

My best guess is that hiring a plumber to come out and replace the
anode would end up costing just as much as replacing a water heater
every 20 years or so. You might be able to get one to last 50 years,
but for what?

Andy

On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 11:37 AM Ken Hohhof mailto:af...@kwisp.com> > wrote:
>
> I thought they had a “glass” lining.  Which begs the question, why is an 
> anode needed if the water doesn’t contact the steel.
>
>
>
> I suspect the glass is more like a baked on enamel or ceramic coating.
>
>
>
> From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On 
> Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
> Sent: Tuesday, December 1, 2020 10:14 AM
> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'  <mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
> Cc: Chuck McCown mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com> >
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters
>
>
>
> Water heaters are steel with a heavy galvanized coating.  So I presume the 
> anode keeps the inside galvanizing in good shape.
>
>
>
> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> ] 
> On Behalf Of Bill Prince
> Sent: Tuesday, December 1, 2020 9:03 AM
> To: af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com> 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters
>
>
>
> Boats, outboard motors, water heaters. Most (all?) are made from zinc. On 
> outboards we called them the sacrificial plate.
>
>
>
> bp
>
> 
>
> On 12/1/2020 6:43 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>
> Boat anodes are zinc.  They form a self galvanizing electrolytic cell that 
> heal any bare steel scratches in the hull coating.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On Dec 1, 2020, at 3:39 AM, Forrest Christian (List Account) 
> mailto:li...@packetflux.com> > wrote:
>
> 
>
> There's usually a bolt looking thing on the top which is actually the end of 
> the anode.
>
>
>
> The real purpose of the anode is to attract all the corrosive crap and 
> corrode so your tank doesn't. Once it is fully corroded, you can either 
> replace it, or the alternative is that your tank gets to corrode next and 
> start to rust and eventually leak.   Seeing as it's like $20 for a 
> replacement and a water heater is more, it probably is good maintenance, but 
> most people never bother  just like most people don't bother flushing the 
> hot water heater itself.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 11:21 AM Steve Jones  <mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> > wrote:
>
> I dont think Ive ever seen an anode on a water heater, inlet, outlet, popoff, 
> burner, thermocouple, drain. Is that a new thing? I havent put in a new water 
> heater in a long time, or is that for electric?
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Erich Kaiser  <mailto:er...@northcentraltower.com> > wrote:
>
> If you are going to put a tank one in again make sure to replace the Anod

Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-12-01 Thread Bill Prince


  
  
When we bought this house in 1996, the water heater was original
  at 12 years old. We replaced it in 2001, so it went a total 17
  years. We still have that WH from 2001, and it's still working (19
  years). So I guess it is getting ready to go...


bp

On 12/1/2020 9:35 AM, Steve Jones
  wrote:


  
  Where are you getting 20 year water heaters?
  
  
On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 10:48
  AM Andrew Haninger <ahan...@gmail.com> wrote:

As
  I understand it, it is a glass lining, but it isn't perfect,
  so the
  water will eventually eat away at the steel tank. (Thank you
  Rich
  Trethewey). The anode rod prevents this and can be replaced to
  extend
  the life of the water heater, but it has to be replaced
  promptly and
  isn't a particularly easy job to do from what I've read/seen;
  I've
  never done it myself.
  
  My best guess is that hiring a plumber to come out and replace
  the
  anode would end up costing just as much as replacing a water
  heater
  every 20 years or so. You might be able to get one to last 50
  years,
  but for what?
  
  Andy
  
  On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 11:37 AM Ken Hohhof <af...@kwisp.com> wrote:
  >
  > I thought they had a “glass” lining.  Which begs the
  question, why is an anode needed if the water doesn’t contact
  the steel.
  >
  >
  >
  > I suspect the glass is more like a baked on enamel or
  ceramic coating.
  >
  >
  >
  > From: AF <af-boun...@af.afmug.com>
  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
  > Sent: Tuesday, December 1, 2020 10:14 AM
  > To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' <af@af.afmug.com>
  > Cc: Chuck McCown <ch...@go-mtc.com>
  > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters
  >
  >
  >
  > Water heaters are steel with a heavy galvanized coating. 
  So I presume the anode keeps the inside galvanizing in good
  shape.
  >
  >
  >
  > From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com]
  On Behalf Of Bill Prince
  > Sent: Tuesday, December 1, 2020 9:03 AM
  > To: af@af.afmug.com
  > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters
  >
  >
  >
  > Boats, outboard motors, water heaters. Most (all?) are
  made from zinc. On outboards we called them the sacrificial
  plate.
  >
  >
  >
  > bp
  >
  > 
  >
  > On 12/1/2020 6:43 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
  >
  > Boat anodes are zinc.  They form a self galvanizing
  electrolytic cell that heal any bare steel scratches in the
  hull coating.
  >
  > Sent from my iPhone
  >
  >
  >
  > On Dec 1, 2020, at 3:39 AM, Forrest Christian (List
  Account) <li...@packetflux.com>
  wrote:
  >
  > 
  >
  > There's usually a bolt looking thing on the top which is
  actually the end of the anode.
  >
  >
  >
  > The real purpose of the anode is to attract all the
  corrosive crap and corrode so your tank doesn't. Once it is
  fully corroded, you can either replace it, or the alternative
  is that your tank gets to corrode next and start to rust and
  eventually leak.   Seeing as it's like $20 for a replacement
  and a water heater is more, it probably is good maintenance,
  but most people never bother  just like most people don't
  bother flushing the hot water heater itself.
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 11:21 AM Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>
  wrote:
  >
  > I dont think Ive ever seen an anode on a water heater,
  inlet, outlet, popoff, burner, thermocouple, drain. Is that a
  new thing? I havent put in a new water heater in a long time,
  or is that for electric?
  >
  >
  >
  > On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Erich Kaiser <er...@northcentraltower.com>
  wrote:
  >
  > If you are going to put a tank one in again make sure to
  replace the Anode rod with a DC powered one.  If y

Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-12-01 Thread Andrew Haninger

I was in an apartment with one that sprung a leak in 2010 or so. It was
made in 1989. Bought a house in 2016 with a Rheem that was made in 2001.
Replaced it in 2019 before it showed any signs of leaking.

Both of these were gas on city water in central Ohio.

So 20 years if you're willing to risk it. 15+ if you're risk averse.

Andy

On Tue, Dec 1, 2020, 12:37 Steve Jones  wrote:

> Where are you getting 20 year water heaters?
>
> On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 10:48 AM Andrew Haninger  wrote:
>
>> As I understand it, it is a glass lining, but it isn't perfect, so the
>> water will eventually eat away at the steel tank. (Thank you Rich
>> Trethewey). The anode rod prevents this and can be replaced to extend
>> the life of the water heater, but it has to be replaced promptly and
>> isn't a particularly easy job to do from what I've read/seen; I've
>> never done it myself.
>>
>> My best guess is that hiring a plumber to come out and replace the
>> anode would end up costing just as much as replacing a water heater
>> every 20 years or so. You might be able to get one to last 50 years,
>> but for what?
>>
>> Andy
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 11:37 AM Ken Hohhof  wrote:
>> >
>> > I thought they had a “glass” lining.  Which begs the question, why is
>> an anode needed if the water doesn’t contact the steel.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I suspect the glass is more like a baked on enamel or ceramic coating.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
>> > Sent: Tuesday, December 1, 2020 10:14 AM
>> > To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
>> > Cc: Chuck McCown 
>> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Water heaters are steel with a heavy galvanized coating.  So I presume
>> the anode keeps the inside galvanizing in good shape.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince
>> > Sent: Tuesday, December 1, 2020 9:03 AM
>> > To: af@af.afmug.com
>> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Boats, outboard motors, water heaters. Most (all?) are made from zinc.
>> On outboards we called them the sacrificial plate.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > bp
>> >
>> > 
>> >
>> > On 12/1/2020 6:43 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>> >
>> > Boat anodes are zinc.  They form a self galvanizing electrolytic cell
>> that heal any bare steel scratches in the hull coating.
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPhone
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Dec 1, 2020, at 3:39 AM, Forrest Christian (List Account) <
>> li...@packetflux.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > 
>> >
>> > There's usually a bolt looking thing on the top which is actually the
>> end of the anode.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > The real purpose of the anode is to attract all the corrosive crap and
>> corrode so your tank doesn't. Once it is fully corroded, you can either
>> replace it, or the alternative is that your tank gets to corrode next and
>> start to rust and eventually leak.   Seeing as it's like $20 for a
>> replacement and a water heater is more, it probably is good maintenance,
>> but most people never bother  just like most people don't bother
>> flushing the hot water heater itself.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 11:21 AM Steve Jones 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > I dont think Ive ever seen an anode on a water heater, inlet, outlet,
>> popoff, burner, thermocouple, drain. Is that a new thing? I havent put in a
>> new water heater in a long time, or is that for electric?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Erich Kaiser <
>> er...@northcentraltower.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > If you are going to put a tank one in again make sure to replace the
>> Anode rod with a DC powered one.  If you check your existing heater does
>> the rod even exist or has it corroded away (It is supposed to protect the
>> tank from corrosion)?  We had two 40 gal heaters replaced about 8 months
>> ago, right after the install, we started to get a sulfur smell . In doing
>> some research turns out even new hot water heater Anodes (magnesium) can
>> have a reaction to well/hard water and the rod will need to replaced within
&g

Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-12-01 Thread James Howard

At our last house we switched from LP to natural gas the year before we moved.  
Our water heater was just under 20 years old and I was considering trying to 
convert it (apparently not an option for most LP models from that period) but 
the plumber talked me into replacing it since he said it wasn’t likely to last 
many more years and cost only slightly more than conversion anyway.   We hadn’t 
had any issues with it in the 8 years we’d been in that house.

From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Tuesday, December 1, 2020 11:35 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

Where are you getting 20 year water heaters?

On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 10:48 AM Andrew Haninger 
mailto:ahan...@gmail.com>> wrote:
As I understand it, it is a glass lining, but it isn't perfect, so the
water will eventually eat away at the steel tank. (Thank you Rich
Trethewey). The anode rod prevents this and can be replaced to extend
the life of the water heater, but it has to be replaced promptly and
isn't a particularly easy job to do from what I've read/seen; I've
never done it myself.

My best guess is that hiring a plumber to come out and replace the
anode would end up costing just as much as replacing a water heater
every 20 years or so. You might be able to get one to last 50 years,
but for what?

Andy

On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 11:37 AM Ken Hohhof 
mailto:af...@kwisp.com>> wrote:
>
> I thought they had a “glass” lining.  Which begs the question, why is an 
> anode needed if the water doesn’t contact the steel.
>
>
>
> I suspect the glass is more like a baked on enamel or ceramic coating.
>
>
>
> From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf 
> Of Chuck McCown via AF
> Sent: Tuesday, December 1, 2020 10:14 AM
> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
> mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
> Cc: Chuck McCown mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com>>
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters
>
>
>
> Water heaters are steel with a heavy galvanized coating.  So I presume the 
> anode keeps the inside galvanizing in good shape.
>
>
>
> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>] On 
> Behalf Of Bill Prince
> Sent: Tuesday, December 1, 2020 9:03 AM
> To: af@af.afmug.com<mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters
>
>
>
> Boats, outboard motors, water heaters. Most (all?) are made from zinc. On 
> outboards we called them the sacrificial plate.
>
>
>
> bp
>
> 
>
> On 12/1/2020 6:43 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>
> Boat anodes are zinc.  They form a self galvanizing electrolytic cell that 
> heal any bare steel scratches in the hull coating.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On Dec 1, 2020, at 3:39 AM, Forrest Christian (List Account) 
> mailto:li...@packetflux.com>> wrote:
>
> 
>
> There's usually a bolt looking thing on the top which is actually the end of 
> the anode.
>
>
>
> The real purpose of the anode is to attract all the corrosive crap and 
> corrode so your tank doesn't. Once it is fully corroded, you can either 
> replace it, or the alternative is that your tank gets to corrode next and 
> start to rust and eventually leak.   Seeing as it's like $20 for a 
> replacement and a water heater is more, it probably is good maintenance, but 
> most people never bother  just like most people don't bother flushing the 
> hot water heater itself.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 11:21 AM Steve Jones 
> mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I dont think Ive ever seen an anode on a water heater, inlet, outlet, popoff, 
> burner, thermocouple, drain. Is that a new thing? I havent put in a new water 
> heater in a long time, or is that for electric?
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Erich Kaiser 
> mailto:er...@northcentraltower.com>> wrote:
>
> If you are going to put a tank one in again make sure to replace the Anode 
> rod with a DC powered one.  If you check your existing heater does the rod 
> even exist or has it corroded away (It is supposed to protect the tank from 
> corrosion)?  We had two 40 gal heaters replaced about 8 months ago, right 
> after the install, we started to get a sulfur smell . In doing some research 
> turns out even new hot water heater Anodes (magnesium) can have a reaction to 
> well/hard water and the rod will need to replaced within a few years.  I 
> found that you can buy a DC rod and never replace it, so I went that route, 
> did it myself and the smell instantly went away.  When i took the rod out to 
> replace it i could see the corrosion on the rod even from only being a few 
> weeks old.
>
>
>
> Link to the anode

Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-12-01 Thread Steve Jones

Where are you getting 20 year water heaters?

On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 10:48 AM Andrew Haninger  wrote:

> As I understand it, it is a glass lining, but it isn't perfect, so the
> water will eventually eat away at the steel tank. (Thank you Rich
> Trethewey). The anode rod prevents this and can be replaced to extend
> the life of the water heater, but it has to be replaced promptly and
> isn't a particularly easy job to do from what I've read/seen; I've
> never done it myself.
>
> My best guess is that hiring a plumber to come out and replace the
> anode would end up costing just as much as replacing a water heater
> every 20 years or so. You might be able to get one to last 50 years,
> but for what?
>
> Andy
>
> On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 11:37 AM Ken Hohhof  wrote:
> >
> > I thought they had a “glass” lining.  Which begs the question, why is an
> anode needed if the water doesn’t contact the steel.
> >
> >
> >
> > I suspect the glass is more like a baked on enamel or ceramic coating.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 1, 2020 10:14 AM
> > To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
> > Cc: Chuck McCown 
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters
> >
> >
> >
> > Water heaters are steel with a heavy galvanized coating.  So I presume
> the anode keeps the inside galvanizing in good shape.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 1, 2020 9:03 AM
> > To: af@af.afmug.com
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters
> >
> >
> >
> > Boats, outboard motors, water heaters. Most (all?) are made from zinc.
> On outboards we called them the sacrificial plate.
> >
> >
> >
> > bp
> >
> > 
> >
> > On 12/1/2020 6:43 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
> >
> > Boat anodes are zinc.  They form a self galvanizing electrolytic cell
> that heal any bare steel scratches in the hull coating.
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >
> >
> > On Dec 1, 2020, at 3:39 AM, Forrest Christian (List Account) <
> li...@packetflux.com> wrote:
> >
> > 
> >
> > There's usually a bolt looking thing on the top which is actually the
> end of the anode.
> >
> >
> >
> > The real purpose of the anode is to attract all the corrosive crap and
> corrode so your tank doesn't. Once it is fully corroded, you can either
> replace it, or the alternative is that your tank gets to corrode next and
> start to rust and eventually leak.   Seeing as it's like $20 for a
> replacement and a water heater is more, it probably is good maintenance,
> but most people never bother  just like most people don't bother
> flushing the hot water heater itself.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 11:21 AM Steve Jones 
> wrote:
> >
> > I dont think Ive ever seen an anode on a water heater, inlet, outlet,
> popoff, burner, thermocouple, drain. Is that a new thing? I havent put in a
> new water heater in a long time, or is that for electric?
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Erich Kaiser <
> er...@northcentraltower.com> wrote:
> >
> > If you are going to put a tank one in again make sure to replace the
> Anode rod with a DC powered one.  If you check your existing heater does
> the rod even exist or has it corroded away (It is supposed to protect the
> tank from corrosion)?  We had two 40 gal heaters replaced about 8 months
> ago, right after the install, we started to get a sulfur smell . In doing
> some research turns out even new hot water heater Anodes (magnesium) can
> have a reaction to well/hard water and the rod will need to replaced within
> a few years.  I found that you can buy a DC rod and never replace it, so I
> went that route, did it myself and the smell instantly went away.  When i
> took the rod out to replace it i could see the corrosion on the rod even
> from only being a few weeks old.
> >
> >
> >
> > Link to the anodes I purchased:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01KIMC91W/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 12:35 AM Steve Jones 
> wrote:
> >
> > You guys all do different weird shit. Went to drain my gas heater tonite
> (may have put that maintenance off longer than intended)
> >
> > We are

Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-12-01 Thread Andrew Haninger

As I understand it, it is a glass lining, but it isn't perfect, so the
water will eventually eat away at the steel tank. (Thank you Rich
Trethewey). The anode rod prevents this and can be replaced to extend
the life of the water heater, but it has to be replaced promptly and
isn't a particularly easy job to do from what I've read/seen; I've
never done it myself.

My best guess is that hiring a plumber to come out and replace the
anode would end up costing just as much as replacing a water heater
every 20 years or so. You might be able to get one to last 50 years,
but for what?

Andy

On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 11:37 AM Ken Hohhof  wrote:
>
> I thought they had a “glass” lining.  Which begs the question, why is an 
> anode needed if the water doesn’t contact the steel.
>
>
>
> I suspect the glass is more like a baked on enamel or ceramic coating.
>
>
>
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
> Sent: Tuesday, December 1, 2020 10:14 AM
> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
> Cc: Chuck McCown 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters
>
>
>
> Water heaters are steel with a heavy galvanized coating.  So I presume the 
> anode keeps the inside galvanizing in good shape.
>
>
>
> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince
> Sent: Tuesday, December 1, 2020 9:03 AM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters
>
>
>
> Boats, outboard motors, water heaters. Most (all?) are made from zinc. On 
> outboards we called them the sacrificial plate.
>
>
>
> bp
>
> 
>
> On 12/1/2020 6:43 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>
> Boat anodes are zinc.  They form a self galvanizing electrolytic cell that 
> heal any bare steel scratches in the hull coating.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On Dec 1, 2020, at 3:39 AM, Forrest Christian (List Account) 
>  wrote:
>
> 
>
> There's usually a bolt looking thing on the top which is actually the end of 
> the anode.
>
>
>
> The real purpose of the anode is to attract all the corrosive crap and 
> corrode so your tank doesn't. Once it is fully corroded, you can either 
> replace it, or the alternative is that your tank gets to corrode next and 
> start to rust and eventually leak.   Seeing as it's like $20 for a 
> replacement and a water heater is more, it probably is good maintenance, but 
> most people never bother  just like most people don't bother flushing the 
> hot water heater itself.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 11:21 AM Steve Jones  
> wrote:
>
> I dont think Ive ever seen an anode on a water heater, inlet, outlet, popoff, 
> burner, thermocouple, drain. Is that a new thing? I havent put in a new water 
> heater in a long time, or is that for electric?
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Erich Kaiser  
> wrote:
>
> If you are going to put a tank one in again make sure to replace the Anode 
> rod with a DC powered one.  If you check your existing heater does the rod 
> even exist or has it corroded away (It is supposed to protect the tank from 
> corrosion)?  We had two 40 gal heaters replaced about 8 months ago, right 
> after the install, we started to get a sulfur smell . In doing some research 
> turns out even new hot water heater Anodes (magnesium) can have a reaction to 
> well/hard water and the rod will need to replaced within a few years.  I 
> found that you can buy a DC rod and never replace it, so I went that route, 
> did it myself and the smell instantly went away.  When i took the rod out to 
> replace it i could see the corrosion on the rod even from only being a few 
> weeks old.
>
>
>
> Link to the anodes I purchased:
>
>
>
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01KIMC91W/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 12:35 AM Steve Jones  
> wrote:
>
> You guys all do different weird shit. Went to drain my gas heater tonite (may 
> have put that maintenance off longer than intended)
>
> We are quarry country so we have super hard water. Needless to say tanks full 
> of baked in sediment and when I cleared the valve I may have cracked the 
> liner, about every ten seconds I'm getting a drip on the burner, and my pop 
> off is dripping, probably some sediment.
>
>
>
> The water heater is the only thing I have that vents hot anymore and my 
> chimney leaks in driving rain. Is rather just bash it in and put a dumbwaiter 
> in the chase. I have the two fresh kids that I bet would have a blast riding 
> that.
>
>
>
> Power vent gas looks to almost double the cost.
>
>
>
> Tankless is looking almost comparab

Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-12-01 Thread Ken Hohhof

I thought they had a “glass” lining.  Which begs the question, why is an anode 
needed if the water doesn’t contact the steel.

 

I suspect the glass is more like a baked on enamel or ceramic coating.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Tuesday, December 1, 2020 10:14 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Cc: Chuck McCown 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

 

Water heaters are steel with a heavy galvanized coating.  So I presume the 
anode keeps the inside galvanizing in good shape.  

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Tuesday, December 1, 2020 9:03 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com <mailto:af@af.afmug.com> 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

 

Boats, outboard motors, water heaters. Most (all?) are made from zinc. On 
outboards we called them the sacrificial plate.

 

bp


On 12/1/2020 6:43 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Boat anodes are zinc.  They form a self galvanizing electrolytic cell that heal 
any bare steel scratches in the hull coating.

Sent from my iPhone

 

On Dec 1, 2020, at 3:39 AM, Forrest Christian (List Account)  
<mailto:li...@packetflux.com>  wrote:

 

There's usually a bolt looking thing on the top which is actually the end of 
the anode. 

 

The real purpose of the anode is to attract all the corrosive crap and corrode 
so your tank doesn't. Once it is fully corroded, you can either replace it, or 
the alternative is that your tank gets to corrode next and start to rust and 
eventually leak.   Seeing as it's like $20 for a replacement and a water heater 
is more, it probably is good maintenance, but most people never bother  
just like most people don't bother flushing the hot water heater itself.

 

 

 

On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 11:21 AM Steve Jones mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> > wrote:

I dont think Ive ever seen an anode on a water heater, inlet, outlet, popoff, 
burner, thermocouple, drain. Is that a new thing? I havent put in a new water 
heater in a long time, or is that for electric?

 

On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Erich Kaiser mailto:er...@northcentraltower.com> > wrote:

If you are going to put a tank one in again make sure to replace the Anode rod 
with a DC powered one.  If you check your existing heater does the rod even 
exist or has it corroded away (It is supposed to protect the tank from 
corrosion)?  We had two 40 gal heaters replaced about 8 months ago, right after 
the install, we started to get a sulfur smell . In doing some research turns 
out even new hot water heater Anodes (magnesium) can have a reaction to 
well/hard water and the rod will need to replaced within a few years.  I found 
that you can buy a DC rod and never replace it, so I went that route, did it 
myself and the smell instantly went away.  When i took the rod out to replace 
it i could see the corrosion on the rod even from only being a few weeks old. 

 

Link to the anodes I purchased:

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01KIMC91W/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8
 
<https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01KIMC91W/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1>
 &psc=1

 

 

 

 

On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 12:35 AM Steve Jones mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> > wrote:

You guys all do different weird shit. Went to drain my gas heater tonite (may 
have put that maintenance off longer than intended) 

We are quarry country so we have super hard water. Needless to say tanks full 
of baked in sediment and when I cleared the valve I may have cracked the liner, 
about every ten seconds I'm getting a drip on the burner, and my pop off is 
dripping, probably some sediment.

 

The water heater is the only thing I have that vents hot anymore and my chimney 
leaks in driving rain. Is rather just bash it in and put a dumbwaiter in the 
chase. I have the two fresh kids that I bet would have a blast riding that. 

 

Power vent gas looks to almost double the cost.

 

Tankless is looking almost comparable in price for gas, so I'm curious if any 
of you guys run them without major water softener and filters.

 

I'm planning on solar in the next 5 or 6 years when I redo my roof so electric 
would be the thing I go with on the water heater after the one I'm gonna have 
to put in now.

 

I like gas water heaters because I know how to fix them, parts are cheap, same 
with my clothes dryers. But theyve priced themselves into me looking at my 
options. 

 

Tankless I dont know how to calculate gpm needs. But what led to this was 
taking the flow reducer out of my low flow shower head and running out of hot 
water in 20 minutes. I start my day by scalding myself for about a half hour 
cause I'm a filthy bastard and need to be cleansed of my sins.

We have 2 bathrooms and a girl hitting her teens, so I assume we may be getting 
into a shower and bath coming on at the same time and the wife knowing what's 
good for he

Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-12-01 Thread Chuck McCown via AF

Water heaters are steel with a heavy galvanized coating.  So I presume the 
anode keeps the inside galvanizing in good shape.  

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Bill Prince
Sent: Tuesday, December 1, 2020 9:03 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

Boats, outboard motors, water heaters. Most (all?) are made from zinc. On 
outboards we called them the sacrificial plate.

bp

On 12/1/2020 6:43 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Boat anodes are zinc.  They form a self galvanizing electrolytic cell that heal 
any bare steel scratches in the hull coating.

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 1, 2020, at 3:39 AM, Forrest Christian (List Account)  
<mailto:li...@packetflux.com>  wrote:

There's usually a bolt looking thing on the top which is actually the end of 
the anode. 

The real purpose of the anode is to attract all the corrosive crap and corrode 
so your tank doesn't. Once it is fully corroded, you can either replace it, or 
the alternative is that your tank gets to corrode next and start to rust and 
eventually leak.   Seeing as it's like $20 for a replacement and a water heater 
is more, it probably is good maintenance, but most people never bother  
just like most people don't bother flushing the hot water heater itself.

On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 11:21 AM Steve Jones mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> > wrote:

I dont think Ive ever seen an anode on a water heater, inlet, outlet, popoff, 
burner, thermocouple, drain. Is that a new thing? I havent put in a new water 
heater in a long time, or is that for electric?

On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Erich Kaiser mailto:er...@northcentraltower.com> > wrote:

If you are going to put a tank one in again make sure to replace the Anode rod 
with a DC powered one.  If you check your existing heater does the rod even 
exist or has it corroded away (It is supposed to protect the tank from 
corrosion)?  We had two 40 gal heaters replaced about 8 months ago, right after 
the install, we started to get a sulfur smell . In doing some research turns 
out even new hot water heater Anodes (magnesium) can have a reaction to 
well/hard water and the rod will need to replaced within a few years.  I found 
that you can buy a DC rod and never replace it, so I went that route, did it 
myself and the smell instantly went away.  When i took the rod out to replace 
it i could see the corrosion on the rod even from only being a few weeks old. 

Link to the anodes I purchased:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01KIMC91W/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8

<https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01KIMC91W/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1>
 &psc=1

On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 12:35 AM Steve Jones mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> > wrote:

You guys all do different weird shit. Went to drain my gas heater tonite (may 
have put that maintenance off longer than intended) 

We are quarry country so we have super hard water. Needless to say tanks full 
of baked in sediment and when I cleared the valve I may have cracked the liner, 
about every ten seconds I'm getting a drip on the burner, and my pop off is 
dripping, probably some sediment.

The water heater is the only thing I have that vents hot anymore and my chimney 
leaks in driving rain. Is rather just bash it in and put a dumbwaiter in the 
chase. I have the two fresh kids that I bet would have a blast riding that. 

Power vent gas looks to almost double the cost.

Tankless is looking almost comparable in price for gas, so I'm curious if any 
of you guys run them without major water softener and filters.

I'm planning on solar in the next 5 or 6 years when I redo my roof so electric 
would be the thing I go with on the water heater after the one I'm gonna have 
to put in now.

I like gas water heaters because I know how to fix them, parts are cheap, same 
with my clothes dryers. But theyve priced themselves into me looking at my 
options. 

Tankless I dont know how to calculate gpm needs. But what led to this was 
taking the flow reducer out of my low flow shower head and running out of hot 
water in 20 minutes. I start my day by scalding myself for about a half hour 
cause I'm a filthy bastard and need to be cleansed of my sins.

We have 2 bathrooms and a girl hitting her teens, so I assume we may be getting 
into a shower and bath coming on at the same time and the wife knowing what's 
good for her and washing dishes.

She wont let me put a wood stove and still in the bathroom, so wood fired 
shower options are out.

Are residential boilers a thing? All my walls had pocket doors so I have plenty 
of room for radiant walls, I dont know if boiler heat it even efficient though.

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> 
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

--

Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-12-01 Thread Bill Prince

Boats, outboard motors, water heaters. Most (all?) are made from
zinc. On outboards we called them the sacrificial plate.

On 12/1/2020 6:43 AM, Chuck McCown via
AF wrote:

Boat anodes are zinc. They form a self galvanizing electrolytic
cell that heal any bare steel scratches in the hull coating.

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 1, 2020, at 3:39 AM, Forrest
Christian (List Account) wrote:

There's usually a bolt looking thing on the top
which is actually the end of the anode.

The real purpose of the anode is to attract all the
corrosive crap and corrode so your tank doesn't. Once it
is fully corroded, you can either replace it, or the
alternative is that your tank gets to corrode next and
start to rust and eventually leak. Seeing as it's like
$20 for a replacement and a water heater is more, it
probably is good maintenance, but most people never
bother just like most people don't bother flushing
the hot water heater itself.

On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at
11:21 AM Steve Jones
wrote:

I dont think Ive ever seen an anode on a
water heater, inlet, outlet, popoff, burner,
thermocouple, drain. Is that a new thing? I havent put
in a new water heater in a long time, or is that for
electric?

On Mon, Nov 30, 2020
at 11:32 AM Erich Kaiser
wrote:

If you are going to put a tank one in
again make sure to replace the Anode rod with a DC
powered one. If you check your existing heater
does the rod even exist or has it corroded away
(It is supposed to protect the tank from
corrosion)? We had two 40 gal heaters replaced
about 8 months ago, right after the install, we
started to get a sulfur smell . In doing some
research turns out even new hot water heater
Anodes (magnesium) can have a reaction to
well/hard water and the rod will need to replaced
within a few years. I found that you can buy a DC
rod and never replace it, so I went that route,
did it myself and the smell instantly went away.
When i took the rod out to replace it i could see
the corrosion on the rod even from only being a
few weeks old.

Link to the anodes I purchased:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01KIMC91W/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

On Sun, Nov 29,
2020 at 12:35 AM Steve Jones
wrote:

You guys all do different weird
shit. Went to drain my gas heater tonite (may
have put that maintenance off longer than
intended)
We are quarry country so we
have super hard water. Needless to say tanks
full of baked in sediment and when I cleared
the valve I may have crack

Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-12-01 Thread James Howard

Outboard motors also have an anode.  I had an outboard that had spent it’s 
early life in salt water and the anode was pretty much gone when I got it.  Put 
a new one in and in the 5 years or so that I had that boat I never saw any 
change in the anode (or in any on any other boats I’ve had).  I attributed it 
to being in freshwater but I suppose it could also be related to how much time 
they actually sit in the water since we don’t have the boat actually in the 
water except when we use it.

From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Tuesday, December 1, 2020 8:44 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: Chuck McCown 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

Boat anodes are zinc.  They form a self galvanizing electrolytic cell that heal 
any bare steel scratches in the hull coating.
Sent from my iPhone


On Dec 1, 2020, at 3:39 AM, Forrest Christian (List Account) 
mailto:li...@packetflux.com>> wrote:

There's usually a bolt looking thing on the top which is actually the end of 
the anode.

The real purpose of the anode is to attract all the corrosive crap and corrode 
so your tank doesn't. Once it is fully corroded, you can either replace it, or 
the alternative is that your tank gets to corrode next and start to rust and 
eventually leak.   Seeing as it's like $20 for a replacement and a water heater 
is more, it probably is good maintenance, but most people never bother  
just like most people don't bother flushing the hot water heater itself.



On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 11:21 AM Steve Jones 
mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I dont think Ive ever seen an anode on a water heater, inlet, outlet, popoff, 
burner, thermocouple, drain. Is that a new thing? I havent put in a new water 
heater in a long time, or is that for electric?

On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Erich Kaiser 
mailto:er...@northcentraltower.com>> wrote:
If you are going to put a tank one in again make sure to replace the Anode rod 
with a DC powered one.  If you check your existing heater does the rod even 
exist or has it corroded away (It is supposed to protect the tank from 
corrosion)?  We had two 40 gal heaters replaced about 8 months ago, right after 
the install, we started to get a sulfur smell . In doing some research turns 
out even new hot water heater Anodes (magnesium) can have a reaction to 
well/hard water and the rod will need to replaced within a few years.  I found 
that you can buy a DC rod and never replace it, so I went that route, did it 
myself and the smell instantly went away.  When i took the rod out to replace 
it i could see the corrosion on the rod even from only being a few weeks old.

Link to the anodes I purchased:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01KIMC91W/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1




On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 12:35 AM Steve Jones 
mailto:thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>> wrote:
You guys all do different weird shit. Went to drain my gas heater tonite (may 
have put that maintenance off longer than intended)
We are quarry country so we have super hard water. Needless to say tanks full 
of baked in sediment and when I cleared the valve I may have cracked the liner, 
about every ten seconds I'm getting a drip on the burner, and my pop off is 
dripping, probably some sediment.

The water heater is the only thing I have that vents hot anymore and my chimney 
leaks in driving rain. Is rather just bash it in and put a dumbwaiter in the 
chase. I have the two fresh kids that I bet would have a blast riding that.

Power vent gas looks to almost double the cost.

Tankless is looking almost comparable in price for gas, so I'm curious if any 
of you guys run them without major water softener and filters.

I'm planning on solar in the next 5 or 6 years when I redo my roof so electric 
would be the thing I go with on the water heater after the one I'm gonna have 
to put in now.

I like gas water heaters because I know how to fix them, parts are cheap, same 
with my clothes dryers. But theyve priced themselves into me looking at my 
options.

Tankless I dont know how to calculate gpm needs. But what led to this was 
taking the flow reducer out of my low flow shower head and running out of hot 
water in 20 minutes. I start my day by scalding myself for about a half hour 
cause I'm a filthy bastard and need to be cleansed of my sins.
We have 2 bathrooms and a girl hitting her teens, so I assume we may be getting 
into a shower and bath coming on at the same time and the wife knowing what's 
good for her and washing dishes.
She wont let me put a wood stove and still in the bathroom, so wood fired 
shower options are out.
Are residential boilers a thing? All my walls had pocket doors so I have plenty 
of room for radiant walls, I dont know if boiler heat it even efficient though.




--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
--
AF maili

Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-12-01 Thread Chuck McCown via AF

Boat anodes are zinc.  They form a self galvanizing electrolytic cell that heal 
any bare steel scratches in the hull coating.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 1, 2020, at 3:39 AM, Forrest Christian (List Account) 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> There's usually a bolt looking thing on the top which is actually the end of 
> the anode.
> 
> The real purpose of the anode is to attract all the corrosive crap and 
> corrode so your tank doesn't. Once it is fully corroded, you can either 
> replace it, or the alternative is that your tank gets to corrode next and 
> start to rust and eventually leak.   Seeing as it's like $20 for a 
> replacement and a water heater is more, it probably is good maintenance, but 
> most people never bother  just like most people don't bother flushing the 
> hot water heater itself.
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 11:21 AM Steve Jones  
>> wrote:
>> I dont think Ive ever seen an anode on a water heater, inlet, outlet, 
>> popoff, burner, thermocouple, drain. Is that a new thing? I havent put in a 
>> new water heater in a long time, or is that for electric?
>> 
>>> On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Erich Kaiser  
>>> wrote:
>>> If you are going to put a tank one in again make sure to replace the Anode 
>>> rod with a DC powered one.  If you check your existing heater does the rod 
>>> even exist or has it corroded away (It is supposed to protect the tank from 
>>> corrosion)?  We had two 40 gal heaters replaced about 8 months ago, right 
>>> after the install, we started to get a sulfur smell . In doing some 
>>> research turns out even new hot water heater Anodes (magnesium) can have a 
>>> reaction to well/hard water and the rod will need to replaced within a few 
>>> years.  I found that you can buy a DC rod and never replace it, so I went 
>>> that route, did it myself and the smell instantly went away.  When i took 
>>> the rod out to replace it i could see the corrosion on the rod even from 
>>> only being a few weeks old.
>>> 
>>> Link to the anodes I purchased:
>>> 
>>> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01KIMC91W/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 12:35 AM Steve Jones  
 wrote:
 You guys all do different weird shit. Went to drain my gas heater tonite 
 (may have put that maintenance off longer than intended)
 We are quarry country so we have super hard water. Needless to say tanks 
 full of baked in sediment and when I cleared the valve I may have cracked 
 the liner, about every ten seconds I'm getting a drip on the burner, and 
 my pop off is dripping, probably some sediment.

 The water heater is the only thing I have that vents hot anymore and my 
 chimney leaks in driving rain. Is rather just bash it in and put a 
 dumbwaiter in the chase. I have the two fresh kids that I bet would have a 
 blast riding that. 

 Power vent gas looks to almost double the cost.

 Tankless is looking almost comparable in price for gas, so I'm curious if 
 any of you guys run them without major water softener and filters.

 I'm planning on solar in the next 5 or 6 years when I redo my roof so 
 electric would be the thing I go with on the water heater after the one 
 I'm gonna have to put in now.

 I like gas water heaters because I know how to fix them, parts are cheap, 
 same with my clothes dryers. But theyve priced themselves into me looking 
 at my options. 

 Tankless I dont know how to calculate gpm needs. But what led to this was 
 taking the flow reducer out of my low flow shower head and running out of 
 hot water in 20 minutes. I start my day by scalding myself for about a 
 half hour cause I'm a filthy bastard and need to be cleansed of my sins.
 We have 2 bathrooms and a girl hitting her teens, so I assume we may be 
 getting into a shower and bath coming on at the same time and the wife 
 knowing what's good for her and washing dishes.
 She wont let me put a wood stove and still in the bathroom, so wood fired 
 shower options are out.
 Are residential boilers a thing? All my walls had pocket doors so I have 
 plenty of room for radiant walls, I dont know if boiler heat it even 
 efficient though.

 -- 
 AF mailing list
 AF@af.afmug.com
 http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>> -- 
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>> -- 
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> 
> 
> -- 
> - Forrest
> -- 
> AF mailing list
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Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-12-01 Thread Forrest Christian (List Account)

There's usually a bolt looking thing on the top which is actually the end
of the anode.

The real purpose of the anode is to attract all the corrosive crap and
corrode so your tank doesn't. Once it is fully corroded, you can either
replace it, or the alternative is that your tank gets to corrode next and
start to rust and eventually leak.   Seeing as it's like $20 for a
replacement and a water heater is more, it probably is good maintenance,
but most people never bother  just like most people don't bother
flushing the hot water heater itself.



On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 11:21 AM Steve Jones 
wrote:

> I dont think Ive ever seen an anode on a water heater, inlet, outlet,
> popoff, burner, thermocouple, drain. Is that a new thing? I havent put in a
> new water heater in a long time, or is that for electric?
>
> On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Erich Kaiser 
> wrote:
>
>> If you are going to put a tank one in again make sure to replace the
>> Anode rod with a DC powered one.  If you check your existing heater does
>> the rod even exist or has it corroded away (It is supposed to protect the
>> tank from corrosion)?  We had two 40 gal heaters replaced about 8 months
>> ago, right after the install, we started to get a sulfur smell . In doing
>> some research turns out even new hot water heater Anodes (magnesium) can
>> have a reaction to well/hard water and the rod will need to replaced within
>> a few years.  I found that you can buy a DC rod and never replace it, so I
>> went that route, did it myself and the smell instantly went away.  When i
>> took the rod out to replace it i could see the corrosion on the rod even
>> from only being a few weeks old.
>>
>> Link to the anodes I purchased:
>>
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01KIMC91W/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 12:35 AM Steve Jones 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> You guys all do different weird shit. Went to drain my gas heater tonite
>>> (may have put that maintenance off longer than intended)
>>> We are quarry country so we have super hard water. Needless to say tanks
>>> full of baked in sediment and when I cleared the valve I may have cracked
>>> the liner, about every ten seconds I'm getting a drip on the burner, and my
>>> pop off is dripping, probably some sediment.
>>>
>>> The water heater is the only thing I have that vents hot anymore and my
>>> chimney leaks in driving rain. Is rather just bash it in and put a
>>> dumbwaiter in the chase. I have the two fresh kids that I bet would have a
>>> blast riding that.
>>>
>>> Power vent gas looks to almost double the cost.
>>>
>>> Tankless is looking almost comparable in price for gas, so I'm curious
>>> if any of you guys run them without major water softener and filters.
>>>
>>> I'm planning on solar in the next 5 or 6 years when I redo my roof so
>>> electric would be the thing I go with on the water heater after the one I'm
>>> gonna have to put in now.
>>>
>>> I like gas water heaters because I know how to fix them, parts are
>>> cheap, same with my clothes dryers. But theyve priced themselves into me
>>> looking at my options.
>>>
>>> Tankless I dont know how to calculate gpm needs. But what led to this
>>> was taking the flow reducer out of my low flow shower head and running out
>>> of hot water in 20 minutes. I start my day by scalding myself for about a
>>> half hour cause I'm a filthy bastard and need to be cleansed of my sins.
>>> We have 2 bathrooms and a girl hitting her teens, so I assume we may be
>>> getting into a shower and bath coming on at the same time and the wife
>>> knowing what's good for her and washing dishes.
>>> She wont let me put a wood stove and still in the bathroom, so wood
>>> fired shower options are out.
>>> Are residential boilers a thing? All my walls had pocket doors so I have
>>> plenty of room for radiant walls, I dont know if boiler heat it even
>>> efficient though.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>


-- 
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-- 
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Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-11-30 Thread Erich Kaiser

both electric and gas, it may not be in the hot output it could be a
separate pop off tab on top thats covered with foam, do some googling for
your make/model and where your anode is located.


Erich Kaiser
North Central Tower
er...@northcentraltower.com
Office: 815-570-3101





On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 12:21 PM Steve Jones 
wrote:

> I dont think Ive ever seen an anode on a water heater, inlet, outlet,
> popoff, burner, thermocouple, drain. Is that a new thing? I havent put in a
> new water heater in a long time, or is that for electric?
>
> On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Erich Kaiser 
> wrote:
>
>> If you are going to put a tank one in again make sure to replace the
>> Anode rod with a DC powered one.  If you check your existing heater does
>> the rod even exist or has it corroded away (It is supposed to protect the
>> tank from corrosion)?  We had two 40 gal heaters replaced about 8 months
>> ago, right after the install, we started to get a sulfur smell . In doing
>> some research turns out even new hot water heater Anodes (magnesium) can
>> have a reaction to well/hard water and the rod will need to replaced within
>> a few years.  I found that you can buy a DC rod and never replace it, so I
>> went that route, did it myself and the smell instantly went away.  When i
>> took the rod out to replace it i could see the corrosion on the rod even
>> from only being a few weeks old.
>>
>> Link to the anodes I purchased:
>>
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01KIMC91W/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 12:35 AM Steve Jones 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> You guys all do different weird shit. Went to drain my gas heater tonite
>>> (may have put that maintenance off longer than intended)
>>> We are quarry country so we have super hard water. Needless to say tanks
>>> full of baked in sediment and when I cleared the valve I may have cracked
>>> the liner, about every ten seconds I'm getting a drip on the burner, and my
>>> pop off is dripping, probably some sediment.
>>>
>>> The water heater is the only thing I have that vents hot anymore and my
>>> chimney leaks in driving rain. Is rather just bash it in and put a
>>> dumbwaiter in the chase. I have the two fresh kids that I bet would have a
>>> blast riding that.
>>>
>>> Power vent gas looks to almost double the cost.
>>>
>>> Tankless is looking almost comparable in price for gas, so I'm curious
>>> if any of you guys run them without major water softener and filters.
>>>
>>> I'm planning on solar in the next 5 or 6 years when I redo my roof so
>>> electric would be the thing I go with on the water heater after the one I'm
>>> gonna have to put in now.
>>>
>>> I like gas water heaters because I know how to fix them, parts are
>>> cheap, same with my clothes dryers. But theyve priced themselves into me
>>> looking at my options.
>>>
>>> Tankless I dont know how to calculate gpm needs. But what led to this
>>> was taking the flow reducer out of my low flow shower head and running out
>>> of hot water in 20 minutes. I start my day by scalding myself for about a
>>> half hour cause I'm a filthy bastard and need to be cleansed of my sins.
>>> We have 2 bathrooms and a girl hitting her teens, so I assume we may be
>>> getting into a shower and bath coming on at the same time and the wife
>>> knowing what's good for her and washing dishes.
>>> She wont let me put a wood stove and still in the bathroom, so wood
>>> fired shower options are out.
>>> Are residential boilers a thing? All my walls had pocket doors so I have
>>> plenty of room for radiant walls, I dont know if boiler heat it even
>>> efficient though.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-11-30 Thread Steve Jones

I dont think Ive ever seen an anode on a water heater, inlet, outlet,
popoff, burner, thermocouple, drain. Is that a new thing? I havent put in a
new water heater in a long time, or is that for electric?

On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 11:32 AM Erich Kaiser 
wrote:

> If you are going to put a tank one in again make sure to replace the Anode
> rod with a DC powered one.  If you check your existing heater does the rod
> even exist or has it corroded away (It is supposed to protect the tank from
> corrosion)?  We had two 40 gal heaters replaced about 8 months ago, right
> after the install, we started to get a sulfur smell . In doing some
> research turns out even new hot water heater Anodes (magnesium) can have a
> reaction to well/hard water and the rod will need to replaced within a few
> years.  I found that you can buy a DC rod and never replace it, so I went
> that route, did it myself and the smell instantly went away.  When i took
> the rod out to replace it i could see the corrosion on the rod even from
> only being a few weeks old.
>
> Link to the anodes I purchased:
>
>
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01KIMC91W/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 12:35 AM Steve Jones 
> wrote:
>
>> You guys all do different weird shit. Went to drain my gas heater tonite
>> (may have put that maintenance off longer than intended)
>> We are quarry country so we have super hard water. Needless to say tanks
>> full of baked in sediment and when I cleared the valve I may have cracked
>> the liner, about every ten seconds I'm getting a drip on the burner, and my
>> pop off is dripping, probably some sediment.
>>
>> The water heater is the only thing I have that vents hot anymore and my
>> chimney leaks in driving rain. Is rather just bash it in and put a
>> dumbwaiter in the chase. I have the two fresh kids that I bet would have a
>> blast riding that.
>>
>> Power vent gas looks to almost double the cost.
>>
>> Tankless is looking almost comparable in price for gas, so I'm curious if
>> any of you guys run them without major water softener and filters.
>>
>> I'm planning on solar in the next 5 or 6 years when I redo my roof so
>> electric would be the thing I go with on the water heater after the one I'm
>> gonna have to put in now.
>>
>> I like gas water heaters because I know how to fix them, parts are cheap,
>> same with my clothes dryers. But theyve priced themselves into me looking
>> at my options.
>>
>> Tankless I dont know how to calculate gpm needs. But what led to this was
>> taking the flow reducer out of my low flow shower head and running out of
>> hot water in 20 minutes. I start my day by scalding myself for about a half
>> hour cause I'm a filthy bastard and need to be cleansed of my sins.
>> We have 2 bathrooms and a girl hitting her teens, so I assume we may be
>> getting into a shower and bath coming on at the same time and the wife
>> knowing what's good for her and washing dishes.
>> She wont let me put a wood stove and still in the bathroom, so wood fired
>> shower options are out.
>> Are residential boilers a thing? All my walls had pocket doors so I have
>> plenty of room for radiant walls, I dont know if boiler heat it even
>> efficient though.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-11-30 Thread Erich Kaiser

If you are going to put a tank one in again make sure to replace the Anode
rod with a DC powered one.  If you check your existing heater does the rod
even exist or has it corroded away (It is supposed to protect the tank from
corrosion)?  We had two 40 gal heaters replaced about 8 months ago, right
after the install, we started to get a sulfur smell . In doing some
research turns out even new hot water heater Anodes (magnesium) can have a
reaction to well/hard water and the rod will need to replaced within a few
years.  I found that you can buy a DC rod and never replace it, so I went
that route, did it myself and the smell instantly went away.  When i took
the rod out to replace it i could see the corrosion on the rod even from
only being a few weeks old.

Link to the anodes I purchased:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01KIMC91W/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1




On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 12:35 AM Steve Jones 
wrote:

> You guys all do different weird shit. Went to drain my gas heater tonite
> (may have put that maintenance off longer than intended)
> We are quarry country so we have super hard water. Needless to say tanks
> full of baked in sediment and when I cleared the valve I may have cracked
> the liner, about every ten seconds I'm getting a drip on the burner, and my
> pop off is dripping, probably some sediment.
>
> The water heater is the only thing I have that vents hot anymore and my
> chimney leaks in driving rain. Is rather just bash it in and put a
> dumbwaiter in the chase. I have the two fresh kids that I bet would have a
> blast riding that.
>
> Power vent gas looks to almost double the cost.
>
> Tankless is looking almost comparable in price for gas, so I'm curious if
> any of you guys run them without major water softener and filters.
>
> I'm planning on solar in the next 5 or 6 years when I redo my roof so
> electric would be the thing I go with on the water heater after the one I'm
> gonna have to put in now.
>
> I like gas water heaters because I know how to fix them, parts are cheap,
> same with my clothes dryers. But theyve priced themselves into me looking
> at my options.
>
> Tankless I dont know how to calculate gpm needs. But what led to this was
> taking the flow reducer out of my low flow shower head and running out of
> hot water in 20 minutes. I start my day by scalding myself for about a half
> hour cause I'm a filthy bastard and need to be cleansed of my sins.
> We have 2 bathrooms and a girl hitting her teens, so I assume we may be
> getting into a shower and bath coming on at the same time and the wife
> knowing what's good for her and washing dishes.
> She wont let me put a wood stove and still in the bathroom, so wood fired
> shower options are out.
> Are residential boilers a thing? All my walls had pocket doors so I have
> plenty of room for radiant walls, I dont know if boiler heat it even
> efficient though.
>
>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-11-30 Thread Robert

Would have been a nice Covid-19 retreat...  I hear they don't have it on 
most of the islands that way..


On 11/30/20 8:20 AM, Lewis Bergman wrote:
I found the new RO units when I was looking at buying a small island 
in Fiji. Raw island so I was looking at the cost of solar plus adding 
a desalination plant. It turns out that desal plants are just RO with 
an added prestage to handle more gunk and salt water. Really not that 
expensive. I think the unit I thought would be best came in at about 
$7k and would produce 1200 gallons a day. That is a lot of fresh 
water. I didn't get to test one and was wondering if it would be 
better than the desal plants onboard Navy ships which tasted like ass. 
Those desal plants take more energy to run than normal RO as it takes 
more pressure to run the extra stages and you don't have any external 
source of pressure like you do on a water system. The high volume 
standard RO plants typically take some power as they use pumps to 
restore the pressure you lose going through the system and without 
them you can't reach the volume past about 200 gallons a day it seems.
I figured the solar would likely cost another $60k with batts and all. 
Figure another $15k to get it all shipped in. It turned out I could 
only afford the island I didn't want which was 4 hours from an Airport 
by small boat. The one 5 minutes from the international airport by 
boat was 18 acres and out of my league.


Wow, sure get off topic quick on this list.

On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 10:02 AM Ken Hohhof <mailto:af...@kwisp.com>> wrote:


https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-do-water-softeners-wo/
<https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-do-water-softeners-wo/>

*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
*Sent:* Monday, November 30, 2020 9:46 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Cc:* Chuck McCown mailto:ch...@go-mtc.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

No, the salt is used to make a brine that washes the hard water
deposits off the resin beads.  It is then dumped overboard and the
beads are rinsed.  Then your water flows through the beads again. 
The beads only have so much capacity so the softening ability
starts to decline as soon as it is put back in operation thus the
need to set the regen cycle.  But it should not add any sodium to
the eater if operating correctly.

Sent from my iPhone



On Nov 30, 2020, at 7:59 AM, Ken Hohhof mailto:af...@kwisp.com>> wrote:



RO I assume is reverse osmosis. That sounds like a great
alternative to a water softener.  We had a water softener
before our town got Lake Michigan water, and while they may be
a minor pain, they are still a pain.  There’s the constant
bags of salt of course.  But while it sounds so nice that your
water is “soft”, in reality it is just replacing calcium with
sodium, and I’m not sure it’s good to be drinking water with
extra sodium.

We did have separate plumbing for outdoor faucets that
bypassed the water softener, I assume that’s standard
practice?  Don’t need to water the grass with soft water,
although some people might want it to wash the car.

*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of *Lewis Bergman
*Sent:* Monday, November 30, 2020 8:35 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

I'll have to look at the brand I have. I have had tankless for
about 25 years now in 2 different houses. First, the electric
ones suck and I wouldn't have one. The gas ones of either type
are great. I had a Bosch for 20 years and I had to clean the
firing tip with sandpaper twice in that time. That location
had soft water and we had no water softener. The new house has
two units that are plumbed together and if the demand gets too
much for one the other fires up and keeps up with the floor.
Found out recently though that they are not redundant. If the
first one has issues the second one never comes on. Evidently
many of these forced air jobs that have PVC exhaust pipes also
have filters. Check you unit before installing it so that if
yours has a filter that has to be cleaned once a year like
mine, you can easily get to it.

If you have hard water, definitely install a water softener in
front of it to lengthen its service life. My new place with
the dual ones has a big water softener. I am thinking if I
ever build another I might get one of those whole house RO
units. They have come down a lot in the last few years and you
can now get a whole hous

Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-11-30 Thread Lewis Bergman

I found the new RO units when I was looking at buying a small island in
Fiji. Raw island so I was looking at the cost of solar plus adding a
desalination plant. It turns out that desal plants are just RO with an
added prestage to handle more gunk and salt water. Really not that
expensive. I think the unit I thought would be best came in at about $7k
and would produce 1200 gallons a day. That is a lot of fresh water. I
didn't get to test one and was wondering if it would be better than the
desal plants onboard Navy ships which tasted like ass. Those desal plants
take more energy to run than normal RO as it takes more pressure to run the
extra stages and you don't have any external source of pressure like you do
on a water system. The high volume standard RO plants typically take some
power as they use pumps to restore the pressure you lose going through the
system and without them you can't reach the volume past about 200 gallons a
day it seems.
I figured the solar would likely cost another $60k with batts and all.
Figure another $15k to get it all shipped in. It turned out I could only
afford the island I didn't want which was 4 hours from an Airport by small
boat. The one 5 minutes from the international airport by boat was 18 acres
and out of my league.

Wow, sure get off topic quick on this list.

On Mon, Nov 30, 2020 at 10:02 AM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-do-water-softeners-wo/
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown via AF
> *Sent:* Monday, November 30, 2020 9:46 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Cc:* Chuck McCown 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters
>
>
>
> No, the salt is used to make a brine that washes the hard water deposits
> off the resin beads.  It is then dumped overboard and the beads are
> rinsed.  Then your water flows through the beads again.  The beads only
> have so much capacity so the softening ability starts to decline as soon as
> it is put back in operation thus the need to set the regen cycle.  But it
> should not add any sodium to the eater if operating correctly.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On Nov 30, 2020, at 7:59 AM, Ken Hohhof  wrote:
>
> 
>
> RO I assume is reverse osmosis.  That sounds like a great alternative to a
> water softener.  We had a water softener before our town got Lake Michigan
> water, and while they may be a minor pain, they are still a pain.  There’s
> the constant bags of salt of course.  But while it sounds so nice that your
> water is “soft”, in reality it is just replacing calcium with sodium, and
> I’m not sure it’s good to be drinking water with extra sodium.
>
>
>
> We did have separate plumbing for outdoor faucets that bypassed the water
> softener, I assume that’s standard practice?  Don’t need to water the grass
> with soft water, although some people might want it to wash the car.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Lewis Bergman
> *Sent:* Monday, November 30, 2020 8:35 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters
>
>
>
> I'll have to look at the brand I have. I have had tankless for about 25
> years now in 2 different houses. First, the electric ones suck and I
> wouldn't have one. The gas ones of either type are great. I had a Bosch for
> 20 years and I had to clean the firing tip with sandpaper twice in that
> time. That location had soft water and we had no water softener. The new
> house has two units that are plumbed together and if the demand gets too
> much for one the other fires up and keeps up with the floor. Found out
> recently though that they are not redundant. If the first one has issues
> the second one never comes on. Evidently many of these forced air jobs that
> have PVC exhaust pipes also have filters. Check you unit before installing
> it so that if yours has a filter that has to be cleaned once a year like
> mine, you can easily get to it.
>
> If you have hard water, definitely install a water softener in front of it
> to lengthen its service life. My new place with the dual ones has a big
> water softener. I am thinking if I ever build another I might get one of
> those whole house RO units. They have come down a lot in the last few years
> and you can now get a whole house RO that puts out 500 gallons a day for a
> couple thousand dollars. If you are smart enough to have home run plumbing
> done you could have one that is a lot less expensive only supply the hot
> water, sinks, dish washer, and ice maker.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 12:22 PM Colin Stanners 
> wrote:
>
> The latter brand is likely Rinnai or Rheem. I'm surprised that you saw
> issues with Takagi, I thought that they were a higher quality brand.
>
>
>
> On

Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-11-30 Thread Ken Hohhof

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-do-water-softeners-wo/

From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2020 9:46 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: Chuck McCown 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

No, the salt is used to make a brine that washes the hard water deposits off 
the resin beads.  It is then dumped overboard and the beads are rinsed.  Then 
your water flows through the beads again.  The beads only have so much capacity 
so the softening ability starts to decline as soon as it is put back in 
operation thus the need to set the regen cycle.  But it should not add any 
sodium to the eater if operating correctly.

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 30, 2020, at 7:59 AM, Ken Hohhof mailto:af...@kwisp.com> > wrote:

RO I assume is reverse osmosis.  That sounds like a great alternative to a 
water softener.  We had a water softener before our town got Lake Michigan 
water, and while they may be a minor pain, they are still a pain.  There’s the 
constant bags of salt of course.  But while it sounds so nice that your water 
is “soft”, in reality it is just replacing calcium with sodium, and I’m not 
sure it’s good to be drinking water with extra sodium.

We did have separate plumbing for outdoor faucets that bypassed the water 
softener, I assume that’s standard practice?  Don’t need to water the grass 
with soft water, although some people might want it to wash the car.

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Lewis Bergman
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2020 8:35 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

I'll have to look at the brand I have. I have had tankless for about 25 years 
now in 2 different houses. First, the electric ones suck and I wouldn't have 
one. The gas ones of either type are great. I had a Bosch for 20 years and I 
had to clean the firing tip with sandpaper twice in that time. That location 
had soft water and we had no water softener. The new house has two units that 
are plumbed together and if the demand gets too much for one the other fires up 
and keeps up with the floor. Found out recently though that they are not 
redundant. If the first one has issues the second one never comes on. Evidently 
many of these forced air jobs that have PVC exhaust pipes also have filters. 
Check you unit before installing it so that if yours has a filter that has to 
be cleaned once a year like mine, you can easily get to it. 

If you have hard water, definitely install a water softener in front of it to 
lengthen its service life. My new place with the dual ones has a big water 
softener. I am thinking if I ever build another I might get one of those whole 
house RO units. They have come down a lot in the last few years and you can now 
get a whole house RO that puts out 500 gallons a day for a couple thousand 
dollars. If you are smart enough to have home run plumbing done you could have 
one that is a lot less expensive only supply the hot water, sinks, dish washer, 
and ice maker.

On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 12:22 PM Colin Stanners mailto:cstann...@gmail.com> > wrote:

The latter brand is likely Rinnai or Rheem. I'm surprised that you saw issues 
with Takagi, I thought that they were a higher quality brand.

On Sun, Nov 29, 2020, 11:58 AM Chuck McCown via AF mailto:af@af.afmug.com> > wrote:

I am generally the first one up.  I turn on the shower then the hot water tap 
to brush my teeth.  By the time my teeth are done the water temp has 
stabilized.  I have a 200Kbtu heater (actually 2 of them for two parts of the 
house).  I never seem to notice much of a temp difference when you are in the 
shower and someone starts something else.  You can hear the heater instantly 
rev up when more flow is detected.  Takagi were crap.  Rhinni have lasted much 
longer.  Not sure I spelled those correctly.  

From: Nate Burke 

Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 10:43 AM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

I have a tankless for 10 years now and love it.  I would replace a tank heater 
with a tankless any time.  We have semi-hard water.  City water, combination of 
river/well.  Wife would like a watersoftener, I think it's fine.  

For our 2 person household, it's been perfect.  Once you are in the shower, you 
never have to adjust the temperature no matter how long you stay in.  When my 
sister came to visit, she commented 'How do you know when to get out?  The 
water never gets cold"

However, Caveats they don't tell you about when using a tankless (At least my 
10 year old model).

It won't get as hot as a tank heater.  On ours, you set the output temperature, 
recommended is 120 degrees, it will adjust the flow to get you to that temp.  
It can fill a tub, or the washing machine without a problem.  but you notice a 
flow decrease when you tr

Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-11-30 Thread Chuck McCown via AF

No, the salt is used to make a brine that washes the hard water deposits off 
the resin beads.  It is then dumped overboard and the beads are rinsed.  Then 
your water flows through the beads again.  The beads only have so much capacity 
so the softening ability starts to decline as soon as it is put back in 
operation thus the need to set the regen cycle.  But it should not add any 
sodium to the eater if operating correctly.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 30, 2020, at 7:59 AM, Ken Hohhof  wrote:
> 
> 
> RO I assume is reverse osmosis.  That sounds like a great alternative to a 
> water softener.  We had a water softener before our town got Lake Michigan 
> water, and while they may be a minor pain, they are still a pain.  There’s 
> the constant bags of salt of course.  But while it sounds so nice that your 
> water is “soft”, in reality it is just replacing calcium with sodium, and I’m 
> not sure it’s good to be drinking water with extra sodium.
>  
> We did have separate plumbing for outdoor faucets that bypassed the water 
> softener, I assume that’s standard practice?  Don’t need to water the grass 
> with soft water, although some people might want it to wash the car.
>  
>  
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Lewis Bergman
> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2020 8:35 AM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters
>  
> I'll have to look at the brand I have. I have had tankless for about 25 years 
> now in 2 different houses. First, the electric ones suck and I wouldn't have 
> one. The gas ones of either type are great. I had a Bosch for 20 years and I 
> had to clean the firing tip with sandpaper twice in that time. That location 
> had soft water and we had no water softener. The new house has two units that 
> are plumbed together and if the demand gets too much for one the other fires 
> up and keeps up with the floor. Found out recently though that they are not 
> redundant. If the first one has issues the second one never comes on. 
> Evidently many of these forced air jobs that have PVC exhaust pipes also have 
> filters. Check you unit before installing it so that if yours has a filter 
> that has to be cleaned once a year like mine, you can easily get to it. 
> If you have hard water, definitely install a water softener in front of it to 
> lengthen its service life. My new place with the dual ones has a big water 
> softener. I am thinking if I ever build another I might get one of those 
> whole house RO units. They have come down a lot in the last few years and you 
> can now get a whole house RO that puts out 500 gallons a day for a couple 
> thousand dollars. If you are smart enough to have home run plumbing done you 
> could have one that is a lot less expensive only supply the hot water, sinks, 
> dish washer, and ice maker.
>  
> On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 12:22 PM Colin Stanners  wrote:
> The latter brand is likely Rinnai or Rheem. I'm surprised that you saw issues 
> with Takagi, I thought that they were a higher quality brand.
>  
> 
> On Sun, Nov 29, 2020, 11:58 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:
> I am generally the first one up.  I turn on the shower then the hot water tap 
> to brush my teeth.  By the time my teeth are done the water temp has 
> stabilized.  I have a 200Kbtu heater (actually 2 of them for two parts of the 
> house).  I never seem to notice much of a temp difference when you are in the 
> shower and someone starts something else.  You can hear the heater instantly 
> rev up when more flow is detected.  Takagi were crap.  Rhinni have lasted 
> much longer.  Not sure I spelled those correctly. 
>  
> From: Nate Burke
> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 10:43 AM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters
>  
> I have a tankless for 10 years now and love it.  I would replace a tank 
> heater with a tankless any time.  We have semi-hard water.  City water, 
> combination of river/well.  Wife would like a watersoftener, I think it's 
> fine.  
> 
> For our 2 person household, it's been perfect.  Once you are in the shower, 
> you never have to adjust the temperature no matter how long you stay in.  
> When my sister came to visit, she commented 'How do you know when to get out? 
>  The water never gets cold"
> 
> However, Caveats they don't tell you about when using a tankless (At least my 
> 10 year old model).
> 
> It won't get as hot as a tank heater.  On ours, you set the output 
> temperature, recommended is 120 degrees, it will adjust the flow to get you 
> to that temp.  It can fill a tub, or the washing machine without a problem.  
> but you notice a flow decrease when you try to do both at once.  If you want 
> to sanitize with only wate

Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-11-30 Thread Chuck McCown via AF

Don’t RO units waste as much water as they make?  Do they use lots of power?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 30, 2020, at 7:35 AM, Lewis Bergman  wrote:
> 
> 
> I'll have to look at the brand I have. I have had tankless for about 25 years 
> now in 2 different houses. First, the electric ones suck and I wouldn't have 
> one. The gas ones of either type are great. I had a Bosch for 20 years and I 
> had to clean the firing tip with sandpaper twice in that time. That location 
> had soft water and we had no water softener. The new house has two units that 
> are plumbed together and if the demand gets too much for one the other fires 
> up and keeps up with the floor. Found out recently though that they are not 
> redundant. If the first one has issues the second one never comes on. 
> Evidently many of these forced air jobs that have PVC exhaust pipes also have 
> filters. Check you unit before installing it so that if yours has a filter 
> that has to be cleaned once a year like mine, you can easily get to it. 
> If you have hard water, definitely install a water softener in front of it to 
> lengthen its service life. My new place with the dual ones has a big water 
> softener. I am thinking if I ever build another I might get one of those 
> whole house RO units. They have come down a lot in the last few years and you 
> can now get a whole house RO that puts out 500 gallons a day for a couple 
> thousand dollars. If you are smart enough to have home run plumbing done you 
> could have one that is a lot less expensive only supply the hot water, sinks, 
> dish washer, and ice maker.
> 
>> On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 12:22 PM Colin Stanners  wrote:
>> The latter brand is likely Rinnai or Rheem. I'm surprised that you saw 
>> issues with Takagi, I thought that they were a higher quality brand.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sun, Nov 29, 2020, 11:58 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:
>>> I am generally the first one up.  I turn on the shower then the hot water 
>>> tap to brush my teeth.  By the time my teeth are done the water temp has 
>>> stabilized.  I have a 200Kbtu heater (actually 2 of them for two parts of 
>>> the house).  I never seem to notice much of a temp difference when you are 
>>> in the shower and someone starts something else.  You can hear the heater 
>>> instantly rev up when more flow is detected.  Takagi were crap.  Rhinni 
>>> have lasted much longer.  Not sure I spelled those correctly. 
>>>  
>>> From: Nate Burke
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 10:43 AM
>>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters
>>>  
>>> I have a tankless for 10 years now and love it.  I would replace a tank 
>>> heater with a tankless any time.  We have semi-hard water.  City water, 
>>> combination of river/well.  Wife would like a watersoftener, I think it's 
>>> fine.  
>>> 
>>> For our 2 person household, it's been perfect.  Once you are in the shower, 
>>> you never have to adjust the temperature no matter how long you stay in.  
>>> When my sister came to visit, she commented 'How do you know when to get 
>>> out?  The water never gets cold"
>>> 
>>> However, Caveats they don't tell you about when using a tankless (At least 
>>> my 10 year old model).
>>> 
>>> It won't get as hot as a tank heater.  On ours, you set the output 
>>> temperature, recommended is 120 degrees, it will adjust the flow to get you 
>>> to that temp.  It can fill a tub, or the washing machine without a problem. 
>>>  but you notice a flow decrease when you try to do both at once.  If you 
>>> want to sanitize with only water temperature, tankless is not the way to 
>>> go.  
>>> 
>>> It really does not like On/Off operation.  If you are the kind of person 
>>> who rinses their dishes with 1 or 2 second bursts from the faucet, it will 
>>> never get hot.  Our dishwasher fills like that, so it always send the 
>>> waterheater into a burner ignition failure (that it recovers from as soon 
>>> as sustained water is drawn)  The dishwasher has it's own internal heater 
>>> that raises the water temp, so that's not a problem.  
>>> 
>>> If your spouse turns off the shower, and you jump right in, You will have 
>>> about 5 seconds of ice cold water at some point during your shower.  The 
>>> water that didn't get heated yet as it went through the heater as it was 
>>> firing up the burner.  
>>> 
>>> Someone running cold water in the house has no affect

Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-11-30 Thread Bill Prince


  
  
We haven't ever had a water softener here. My parents had it, but
  it was plumbed only to outlets used for cleaning; washer,
  dishwasher, bathrooms. Water used for drinking was separate. I
  think softened water tastes funny. Not like water; more like a
  kind of soap taste or something. Wonder if there's any relation to
  artificial sweeteners?

bp

On 11/30/2020 6:59 AM, Ken Hohhof
  wrote:


  
  
  
  
  
RO I assume is reverse osmosis.  That
  sounds like a great alternative to a water softener.  We had a
  water softener before our town got Lake Michigan water, and
  while they may be a minor pain, they are still a pain. 
  There’s the constant bags of salt of course.  But while it
  sounds so nice that your water is “soft”, in reality it is
  just replacing calcium with sodium, and I’m not sure it’s good
  to be drinking water with extra sodium.
 
We did have separate plumbing for outdoor
  faucets that bypassed the water softener, I assume that’s
  standard practice?  Don’t need to water the grass with soft
  water, although some people might want it to wash the car.
 
 

  From: AF
 On Behalf Of Lewis
Bergman
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2020 8:35 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

 

  I'll have to look at the brand I have. I
have had tankless for about 25 years now in 2 different
houses. First, the electric ones suck and I wouldn't have
one. The gas ones of either type are great. I had a Bosch
for 20 years and I had to clean the firing tip with
sandpaper twice in that time. That location had soft water
and we had no water softener. The new house has two units
that are plumbed together and if the demand gets too much
for one the other fires up and keeps up with the floor.
Found out recently though that they are not redundant. If
the first one has issues the second one never comes on.
Evidently many of these forced air jobs that have PVC
exhaust pipes also have filters. Check you unit before
installing it so that if yours has a filter that has to be
cleaned once a year like mine, you can easily get to it. 
  
If you have hard water,
  definitely install a water softener in front of it to
  lengthen its service life. My new place with the dual ones
  has a big water softener. I am thinking if I ever build
  another I might get one of those whole house RO units.
  They have come down a lot in the last few years and you
  can now get a whole house RO that puts out 500 gallons a
  day for a couple thousand dollars. If you are smart enough
  to have home run plumbing done you could have one that is
  a lot less expensive only supply the hot water, sinks,
  dish washer, and ice maker.
  

 

  
On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 12:22 PM Colin
  Stanners <cstann...@gmail.com>
  wrote:
  
  

  
The latter brand is likely Rinnai
  or Rheem. I'm surprised that you saw issues with
  Takagi, I thought that they were a higher quality
  brand.
  
  
 

  
On Sun, Nov 29, 2020, 11:58 AM
  Chuck McCown via AF <af@af.afmug.com>
  wrote:
  
  

  

  
I
am generally the first one up.  I turn
on the shower then the hot water tap to
brush my teeth.  By the time my teeth
are done the water temp has stabilized. 
I have a 200Kbtu heater (actually 2 of
them for two parts of the house).  I
never seem to notice much of a temp
difference when you are in the shower
and someone starts something else.  You
can hear the heater instantly rev up
when more flow is detected.  Takagi were

Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-11-30 Thread Ken Hohhof

RO I assume is reverse osmosis.  That sounds like a great alternative to a 
water softener.  We had a water softener before our town got Lake Michigan 
water, and while they may be a minor pain, they are still a pain.  There’s the 
constant bags of salt of course.  But while it sounds so nice that your water 
is “soft”, in reality it is just replacing calcium with sodium, and I’m not 
sure it’s good to be drinking water with extra sodium.

 

We did have separate plumbing for outdoor faucets that bypassed the water 
softener, I assume that’s standard practice?  Don’t need to water the grass 
with soft water, although some people might want it to wash the car.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Lewis Bergman
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2020 8:35 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

 

I'll have to look at the brand I have. I have had tankless for about 25 years 
now in 2 different houses. First, the electric ones suck and I wouldn't have 
one. The gas ones of either type are great. I had a Bosch for 20 years and I 
had to clean the firing tip with sandpaper twice in that time. That location 
had soft water and we had no water softener. The new house has two units that 
are plumbed together and if the demand gets too much for one the other fires up 
and keeps up with the floor. Found out recently though that they are not 
redundant. If the first one has issues the second one never comes on. Evidently 
many of these forced air jobs that have PVC exhaust pipes also have filters. 
Check you unit before installing it so that if yours has a filter that has to 
be cleaned once a year like mine, you can easily get to it. 

If you have hard water, definitely install a water softener in front of it to 
lengthen its service life. My new place with the dual ones has a big water 
softener. I am thinking if I ever build another I might get one of those whole 
house RO units. They have come down a lot in the last few years and you can now 
get a whole house RO that puts out 500 gallons a day for a couple thousand 
dollars. If you are smart enough to have home run plumbing done you could have 
one that is a lot less expensive only supply the hot water, sinks, dish washer, 
and ice maker.

 

On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 12:22 PM Colin Stanners mailto:cstann...@gmail.com> > wrote:

The latter brand is likely Rinnai or Rheem. I'm surprised that you saw issues 
with Takagi, I thought that they were a higher quality brand.

 

On Sun, Nov 29, 2020, 11:58 AM Chuck McCown via AF mailto:af@af.afmug.com> > wrote:

I am generally the first one up.  I turn on the shower then the hot water tap 
to brush my teeth.  By the time my teeth are done the water temp has 
stabilized.  I have a 200Kbtu heater (actually 2 of them for two parts of the 
house).  I never seem to notice much of a temp difference when you are in the 
shower and someone starts something else.  You can hear the heater instantly 
rev up when more flow is detected.  Takagi were crap.  Rhinni have lasted much 
longer.  Not sure I spelled those correctly.  

 

From: Nate Burke 

Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 10:43 AM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

 

I have a tankless for 10 years now and love it.  I would replace a tank heater 
with a tankless any time.  We have semi-hard water.  City water, combination of 
river/well.  Wife would like a watersoftener, I think it's fine.  

For our 2 person household, it's been perfect.  Once you are in the shower, you 
never have to adjust the temperature no matter how long you stay in.  When my 
sister came to visit, she commented 'How do you know when to get out?  The 
water never gets cold"

However, Caveats they don't tell you about when using a tankless (At least my 
10 year old model).

It won't get as hot as a tank heater.  On ours, you set the output temperature, 
recommended is 120 degrees, it will adjust the flow to get you to that temp.  
It can fill a tub, or the washing machine without a problem.  but you notice a 
flow decrease when you try to do both at once.  If you want to sanitize with 
only water temperature, tankless is not the way to go.  

It really does not like On/Off operation.  If you are the kind of person who 
rinses their dishes with 1 or 2 second bursts from the faucet, it will never 
get hot.  Our dishwasher fills like that, so it always send the waterheater 
into a burner ignition failure (that it recovers from as soon as sustained 
water is drawn)  The dishwasher has it's own internal heater that raises the 
water temp, so that's not a problem.  

If your spouse turns off the shower, and you jump right in, You will have about 
5 seconds of ice cold water at some point during your shower.  The water that 
didn't get heated yet as it went through the heater as it was firing up the 
burner.  

Someone running cold water in the house has no affect on tempe

Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-11-30 Thread Lewis Bergman

I'll have to look at the brand I have. I have had tankless for about 25
years now in 2 different houses. First, the electric ones suck and I
wouldn't have one. The gas ones of either type are great. I had a Bosch for
20 years and I had to clean the firing tip with sandpaper twice in that
time. That location had soft water and we had no water softener. The new
house has two units that are plumbed together and if the demand gets too
much for one the other fires up and keeps up with the floor. Found out
recently though that they are not redundant. If the first one has issues
the second one never comes on. Evidently many of these forced air jobs that
have PVC exhaust pipes also have filters. Check you unit before installing
it so that if yours has a filter that has to be cleaned once a year like
mine, you can easily get to it.
If you have hard water, definitely install a water softener in front of it
to lengthen its service life. My new place with the dual ones has a big
water softener. I am thinking if I ever build another I might get one of
those whole house RO units. They have come down a lot in the last few years
and you can now get a whole house RO that puts out 500 gallons a day for a
couple thousand dollars. If you are smart enough to have home run plumbing
done you could have one that is a lot less expensive only supply the hot
water, sinks, dish washer, and ice maker.

On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 12:22 PM Colin Stanners  wrote:

> The latter brand is likely Rinnai or Rheem. I'm surprised that you saw
> issues with Takagi, I thought that they were a higher quality brand.
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 29, 2020, 11:58 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> I am generally the first one up.  I turn on the shower then the hot water
>> tap to brush my teeth.  By the time my teeth are done the water temp has
>> stabilized.  I have a 200Kbtu heater (actually 2 of them for two parts of
>> the house).  I never seem to notice much of a temp difference when you are
>> in the shower and someone starts something else.  You can hear the heater
>> instantly rev up when more flow is detected.  Takagi were crap.  Rhinni
>> have lasted much longer.  Not sure I spelled those correctly.
>>
>> *From:* Nate Burke
>> *Sent:* Sunday, November 29, 2020 10:43 AM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters
>>
>> I have a tankless for 10 years now and love it.  I would replace a tank
>> heater with a tankless any time.  We have semi-hard water.  City water,
>> combination of river/well.  Wife would like a watersoftener, I think it's
>> fine.
>>
>> For our 2 person household, it's been perfect.  Once you are in the
>> shower, you never have to adjust the temperature no matter how long you
>> stay in.  When my sister came to visit, she commented 'How do you know when
>> to get out?  The water never gets cold"
>>
>> However, Caveats they don't tell you about when using a tankless (At
>> least my 10 year old model).
>>
>> It won't get as hot as a tank heater.  On ours, you set the output
>> temperature, recommended is 120 degrees, it will adjust the flow to get you
>> to that temp.  It can fill a tub, or the washing machine without a
>> problem.  but you notice a flow decrease when you try to do both at once.
>> If you want to sanitize with only water temperature, tankless is not the
>> way to go.
>>
>> It really does not like On/Off operation.  If you are the kind of person
>> who rinses their dishes with 1 or 2 second bursts from the faucet, it will
>> never get hot.  Our dishwasher fills like that, so it always send the
>> waterheater into a burner ignition failure (that it recovers from as soon
>> as sustained water is drawn)  The dishwasher has it's own internal heater
>> that raises the water temp, so that's not a problem.
>>
>> If your spouse turns off the shower, and you jump right in, You will have
>> about 5 seconds of ice cold water at some point during your shower.  The
>> water that didn't get heated yet as it went through the heater as it was
>> firing up the burner.
>>
>> Someone running cold water in the house has no affect on temperature,
>> someone running hotwater will dramatically change your temp, as suddenly
>> the hot flow is decreased until the heater burner ramps up to increase the
>> output again.  Same when the other hot flow is turned off, you will get
>> really hot.
>>
>> I de-scale my heater every 6 months. They didn't tell me to do it when I
>> got it, and it stopped working after a year.  I use 5 gallons of vinegar
>> and a 1/6hp pump in a 5 gallon bucket.  The heater has built i

Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-11-29 Thread Colin Stanners

The latter brand is likely Rinnai or Rheem. I'm surprised that you saw
issues with Takagi, I thought that they were a higher quality brand.


On Sun, Nov 29, 2020, 11:58 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> I am generally the first one up.  I turn on the shower then the hot water
> tap to brush my teeth.  By the time my teeth are done the water temp has
> stabilized.  I have a 200Kbtu heater (actually 2 of them for two parts of
> the house).  I never seem to notice much of a temp difference when you are
> in the shower and someone starts something else.  You can hear the heater
> instantly rev up when more flow is detected.  Takagi were crap.  Rhinni
> have lasted much longer.  Not sure I spelled those correctly.
>
> *From:* Nate Burke
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 29, 2020 10:43 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters
>
> I have a tankless for 10 years now and love it.  I would replace a tank
> heater with a tankless any time.  We have semi-hard water.  City water,
> combination of river/well.  Wife would like a watersoftener, I think it's
> fine.
>
> For our 2 person household, it's been perfect.  Once you are in the
> shower, you never have to adjust the temperature no matter how long you
> stay in.  When my sister came to visit, she commented 'How do you know when
> to get out?  The water never gets cold"
>
> However, Caveats they don't tell you about when using a tankless (At least
> my 10 year old model).
>
> It won't get as hot as a tank heater.  On ours, you set the output
> temperature, recommended is 120 degrees, it will adjust the flow to get you
> to that temp.  It can fill a tub, or the washing machine without a
> problem.  but you notice a flow decrease when you try to do both at once.
> If you want to sanitize with only water temperature, tankless is not the
> way to go.
>
> It really does not like On/Off operation.  If you are the kind of person
> who rinses their dishes with 1 or 2 second bursts from the faucet, it will
> never get hot.  Our dishwasher fills like that, so it always send the
> waterheater into a burner ignition failure (that it recovers from as soon
> as sustained water is drawn)  The dishwasher has it's own internal heater
> that raises the water temp, so that's not a problem.
>
> If your spouse turns off the shower, and you jump right in, You will have
> about 5 seconds of ice cold water at some point during your shower.  The
> water that didn't get heated yet as it went through the heater as it was
> firing up the burner.
>
> Someone running cold water in the house has no affect on temperature,
> someone running hotwater will dramatically change your temp, as suddenly
> the hot flow is decreased until the heater burner ramps up to increase the
> output again.  Same when the other hot flow is turned off, you will get
> really hot.
>
> I de-scale my heater every 6 months. They didn't tell me to do it when I
> got it, and it stopped working after a year.  I use 5 gallons of vinegar
> and a 1/6hp pump in a 5 gallon bucket.  The heater has built in bypass
> valves that make it super simple to hook up.  Just let the pump run the
> vinegar through for an hour (there are manufactures directions on how to do
> it)
>
>
>
> On 11/29/2020 10:47 AM, Colin Stanners wrote:
>
> FYI, quick pricing example for the above
> 2x Eccotemp 45HI-NG ( I can't find the -NG on Amazon easily but just for
> reference here's the very similar but not compatible -LP version
> https://www.amazon.com/Eccotemp-45HI-LP-Indoor-Propane-Tankless/dp/B00K2XLJIW/
> ) $530 USD each
> 2x Descaling/service valve kits (not the Eccotemp model but these seem to
> be compatible)
> https://www.amazon.com/Hydro-Master-Isolator-Tankless-Pressure/dp/B07KVCFT2K/
> $60 USD each
> 2x 4inch class III stainless steel vertical vent kits, with additional
> piping as needed - depends greatly on your house but I'm assuming $1000
> total
> 1x device interconnect cable - I thought that these models were able to be
> ganged, can't find the serial cable to do so but I assume it'd be <$50.
> 1x descaling kit
> https://www.amazon.com/Eccotemp-EZ-Flush-System-Descaler-Cleaning/dp/B01MY7AJ9D
> $150
>
> By far the biggest cost would be the labour to replace the old chimney /
> galvanized B vent with the new class III stainless steel piping x2.
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 10:10 AM Colin Stanners 
> wrote:
>
>> Steve, no feces involvement here but I've been looking into water heaters
>> quite a bit for a project.
>>
>> For the hard water, instead or in addition to the water softener you may
>> want to look into putting one of these

Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-11-29 Thread Chuck McCown via AF

Rather have a few of these:
https://bellona.org/news/nuclear-issues/radioactive-waste-and-spent-nuclear-fuel/2003-11-two-strontium-powered-lighthouses-vandalised-on-the-kola-peninsula

From: Bill Prince 
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 11:10 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

What is that?!?!

Oh, it's just Chuck taking a shower.

bp
On 11/29/2020 9:52 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

  So, no gas but no nuclear...  

  From: Bill Prince 
  Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 9:08 AM
  To: af@af.afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

  We have a gas tank water heater on the south/original part of the house, and 
a tankless for the north/addition. Neither is ideal because of the long pipe 
runs to some of the usage places. Everything is spread out to maximize the 
distance from the water heater(s) to where it's actually used. 

  Not ideal. I have no problem with the way the house is layed out, but the 
really long water pipes is a big issue. If I were to start over, I might 
consider point-of-use water heaters, but, jeeze, that would be 8 of them; 5 
bathrooms, kitchen, laundry, and utility sink in the garage. I suppose a couple 
could be combined because they are so close together.

  Another thing to consider is local codes. There are a couple places here in 
the Bay Area where they are prohibiting gas for new developments. That means no 
gas stoves/ovens; no gas dryers; no gas water heaters. That is probably the way 
of the future, so probably heat pumps or pure electric.

bp
On 11/28/2020 10:34 PM, Steve Jones wrote:

You guys all do different weird shit. Went to drain my gas heater tonite 
(may have put that maintenance off longer than intended) 
We are quarry country so we have super hard water. Needless to say tanks 
full of baked in sediment and when I cleared the valve I may have cracked the 
liner, about every ten seconds I'm getting a drip on the burner, and my pop off 
is dripping, probably some sediment.

The water heater is the only thing I have that vents hot anymore and my 
chimney leaks in driving rain. Is rather just bash it in and put a dumbwaiter 
in the chase. I have the two fresh kids that I bet would have a blast riding 
that. 

Power vent gas looks to almost double the cost.

Tankless is looking almost comparable in price for gas, so I'm curious if 
any of you guys run them without major water softener and filters.

I'm planning on solar in the next 5 or 6 years when I redo my roof so 
electric would be the thing I go with on the water heater after the one I'm 
gonna have to put in now.

I like gas water heaters because I know how to fix them, parts are cheap, 
same with my clothes dryers. But theyve priced themselves into me looking at my 
options. 

Tankless I dont know how to calculate gpm needs. But what led to this was 
taking the flow reducer out of my low flow shower head and running out of hot 
water in 20 minutes. I start my day by scalding myself for about a half hour 
cause I'm a filthy bastard and need to be cleansed of my sins.
We have 2 bathrooms and a girl hitting her teens, so I assume we may be 
getting into a shower and bath coming on at the same time and the wife knowing 
what's good for her and washing dishes.
She wont let me put a wood stove and still in the bathroom, so wood fired 
shower options are out.
Are residential boilers a thing? All my walls had pocket doors so I have 
plenty of room for radiant walls, I dont know if boiler heat it even efficient 
though.

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Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-11-29 Thread Bill Prince


  
  
What is that?!?!
Oh, it's just Chuck taking a shower.



bp

On 11/29/2020 9:52 AM, Chuck McCown via
  AF wrote:


  
  

  So, no gas but no nuclear...  
  

   
  
From: Bill
Prince 
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 9:08 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters
  

 
  
  
We have a gas tank water heater on the south/original
  part of the house, and a tankless for the north/addition.
  Neither is ideal because of the long pipe runs to some of
  the usage places. Everything is spread out to maximize the
  distance from the water heater(s) to where it's actually
  used. 

Not ideal. I have no problem with the way the house is
  layed out, but the really long water pipes is a big issue.
  If I were to start over, I might consider point-of-use
  water heaters, but, jeeze, that would be 8 of them; 5
  bathrooms, kitchen, laundry, and utility sink in the
  garage. I suppose a couple could be combined because they
  are so close together.
Another thing to consider is local codes. There are a
  couple places here in the Bay Area where they are
  prohibiting gas for new developments. That means no gas
  stoves/ovens; no gas dryers; no gas water heaters. That is
  probably the way of the future, so probably heat pumps or
  pure electric.

 
bp

On 11/28/2020 10:34 PM, Steve
  Jones wrote:


  You guys all do different weird shit. Went to drain
my gas heater tonite (may have put that maintenance off
longer than intended)
We are quarry country so we have super hard water.
  Needless to say tanks full of baked in sediment and
  when I cleared the valve I may have cracked the liner,
  about every ten seconds I'm getting a drip on the
  burner, and my pop off is dripping, probably some
  sediment.
 
The water heater is the only thing I have that
  vents hot anymore and my chimney leaks in driving
  rain. Is rather just bash it in and put a dumbwaiter
  in the chase. I have the two fresh kids that I bet
  would have a blast riding that. 
 
Power vent gas looks to almost double the cost.
 
Tankless is looking almost comparable in price for
  gas, so I'm curious if any of you guys run them
  without major water softener and filters.
 
I'm planning on solar in the next 5 or 6 years when
  I redo my roof so electric would be the thing I go
  with on the water heater after the one I'm gonna have
  to put in now.
 
I like gas water heaters because I know how to fix
  them, parts are cheap, same with my clothes dryers.
  But theyve priced themselves into me looking at my
  options. 
 
Tankless I dont know how to calculate gpm needs.
  But what led to this was taking the flow reducer out
  of my low flow shower head and running out of hot
  water in 20 minutes. I start my day by scalding myself
  for about a half hour cause I'm a filthy bastard and
  need to be cleansed of my sins.
We have 2 bathrooms and a girl hitting her teens,
  so I assume we may be getting into a shower and bath
  coming on at the same time and the wife knowing what's
  good for her and washing dishes.
She wont let me put a wood stove and still in the
  bathroom, so wood fired shower options are out.
Are residential boilers a thing? All my walls had
  pocket doors so I have plenty of room for radiant
  walls, I dont know if boiler heat it even efficient
  though.
 
 
 
 
  
  
  




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Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-11-29 Thread Nate Burke


I have a Noritz, 199,900btu

On 11/29/2020 11:57 AM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
I am generally the first one up.  I turn on the shower then the hot 
water tap to brush my teeth.  By the time my teeth are done the water 
temp has stabilized.  I have a 200Kbtu heater (actually 2 of them for 
two parts of the house).  I never seem to notice much of a temp 
difference when you are in the shower and someone starts something 
else.  You can hear the heater instantly rev up when more flow is 
detected.  Takagi were crap.  Rhinni have lasted much longer.  Not 
sure I spelled those correctly.

*From:* Nate Burke
*Sent:* Sunday, November 29, 2020 10:43 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters
I have a tankless for 10 years now and love it.  I would replace a 
tank heater with a tankless any time.  We have semi-hard water.  City 
water, combination of river/well.  Wife would like a watersoftener, I 
think it's fine.


For our 2 person household, it's been perfect.  Once you are in the 
shower, you never have to adjust the temperature no matter how long 
you stay in.  When my sister came to visit, she commented 'How do you 
know when to get out?  The water never gets cold"


However, Caveats they don't tell you about when using a tankless (At 
least my 10 year old model).


It won't get as hot as a tank heater.  On ours, you set the output 
temperature, recommended is 120 degrees, it will adjust the flow to 
get you to that temp.  It can fill a tub, or the washing machine 
without a problem.  but you notice a flow decrease when you try to do 
both at once.  If you want to sanitize with only water temperature, 
tankless is not the way to go.


It really does not like On/Off operation.  If you are the kind of 
person who rinses their dishes with 1 or 2 second bursts from the 
faucet, it will never get hot.  Our dishwasher fills like that, so it 
always send the waterheater into a burner ignition failure (that it 
recovers from as soon as sustained water is drawn)  The dishwasher has 
it's own internal heater that raises the water temp, so that's not a 
problem.


If your spouse turns off the shower, and you jump right in, You will 
have about 5 seconds of ice cold water at some point during your 
shower.  The water that didn't get heated yet as it went through the 
heater as it was firing up the burner.


Someone running cold water in the house has no affect on temperature, 
someone running hotwater will dramatically change your temp, as 
suddenly the hot flow is decreased until the heater burner ramps up to 
increase the output again.  Same when the other hot flow is turned 
off, you will get really hot.


I de-scale my heater every 6 months. They didn't tell me to do it when 
I got it, and it stopped working after a year.  I use 5 gallons of 
vinegar and a 1/6hp pump in a 5 gallon bucket.  The heater has built 
in bypass valves that make it super simple to hook up.  Just let the 
pump run the vinegar through for an hour (there are manufactures 
directions on how to do it)




On 11/29/2020 10:47 AM, Colin Stanners wrote:

FYI, quick pricing example for the above
2x Eccotemp 45HI-NG ( I can't find the -NG on Amazon easily but just 
for reference here's the very similar but not compatible -LP version 
https://www.amazon.com/Eccotemp-45HI-LP-Indoor-Propane-Tankless/dp/B00K2XLJIW/ 
) $530 USD each
2x Descaling/service valve kits (not the Eccotemp model but these 
seem to be compatible) 
https://www.amazon.com/Hydro-Master-Isolator-Tankless-Pressure/dp/B07KVCFT2K/ 
$60 USD each
2x 4inch class III stainless steel vertical vent kits, with 
additional piping as needed - depends greatly on your house but I'm 
assuming $1000 total
1x device interconnect cable - I thought that these models were able 
to be ganged, can't find the serial cable to do so but I assume it'd 
be <$50.
1x descaling kit 
https://www.amazon.com/Eccotemp-EZ-Flush-System-Descaler-Cleaning/dp/B01MY7AJ9D 
$150
By far the biggest cost would be the labour to replace the old 
chimney / galvanized B vent with the new class III stainless steel 
piping x2.
On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 10:10 AM Colin Stanners  
wrote:


Steve, no feces involvement here but I've been looking into water
heaters quite a bit for a project.
For the hard water, instead or in addition to the water softener
you may want to look into putting one of these into your hot
water path. https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B000NKETXQ/ I wouldn't put
it in the general cold water path - while polyphosphates are safe
for consumption from what I can see, and I'd trust 3M to vet them
well, I try to not add much to drinking water, and cold water is
usually mostly what is used for drinking. Maybe check your
plumbing if it's possible to add that device to the cold water
path for everywhere except the kitchen sink, where drinking water
is

Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-11-29 Thread Chuck McCown via AF

I am generally the first one up.  I turn on the shower then the hot water tap 
to brush my teeth.  By the time my teeth are done the water temp has 
stabilized.  I have a 200Kbtu heater (actually 2 of them for two parts of the 
house).  I never seem to notice much of a temp difference when you are in the 
shower and someone starts something else.  You can hear the heater instantly 
rev up when more flow is detected.  Takagi were crap.  Rhinni have lasted much 
longer.  Not sure I spelled those correctly.  

From: Nate Burke 
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 10:43 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

I have a tankless for 10 years now and love it.  I would replace a tank heater 
with a tankless any time.  We have semi-hard water.  City water, combination of 
river/well.  Wife would like a watersoftener, I think it's fine.  

For our 2 person household, it's been perfect.  Once you are in the shower, you 
never have to adjust the temperature no matter how long you stay in.  When my 
sister came to visit, she commented 'How do you know when to get out?  The 
water never gets cold"

However, Caveats they don't tell you about when using a tankless (At least my 
10 year old model).

It won't get as hot as a tank heater.  On ours, you set the output temperature, 
recommended is 120 degrees, it will adjust the flow to get you to that temp.  
It can fill a tub, or the washing machine without a problem.  but you notice a 
flow decrease when you try to do both at once.  If you want to sanitize with 
only water temperature, tankless is not the way to go.  

It really does not like On/Off operation.  If you are the kind of person who 
rinses their dishes with 1 or 2 second bursts from the faucet, it will never 
get hot.  Our dishwasher fills like that, so it always send the waterheater 
into a burner ignition failure (that it recovers from as soon as sustained 
water is drawn)  The dishwasher has it's own internal heater that raises the 
water temp, so that's not a problem.  

If your spouse turns off the shower, and you jump right in, You will have about 
5 seconds of ice cold water at some point during your shower.  The water that 
didn't get heated yet as it went through the heater as it was firing up the 
burner.  

Someone running cold water in the house has no affect on temperature, someone 
running hotwater will dramatically change your temp, as suddenly the hot flow 
is decreased until the heater burner ramps up to increase the output again.  
Same when the other hot flow is turned off, you will get really hot.  

I de-scale my heater every 6 months. They didn't tell me to do it when I got 
it, and it stopped working after a year.  I use 5 gallons of vinegar and a 
1/6hp pump in a 5 gallon bucket.  The heater has built in bypass valves that 
make it super simple to hook up.  Just let the pump run the vinegar through for 
an hour (there are manufactures directions on how to do it) 




On 11/29/2020 10:47 AM, Colin Stanners wrote:

  FYI, quick pricing example for the above
  2x Eccotemp 45HI-NG ( I can't find the -NG on Amazon easily but just for 
reference here's the very similar but not compatible -LP version 
https://www.amazon.com/Eccotemp-45HI-LP-Indoor-Propane-Tankless/dp/B00K2XLJIW/ 
) $530 USD each

  2x Descaling/service valve kits (not the Eccotemp model but these seem to be 
compatible)  
https://www.amazon.com/Hydro-Master-Isolator-Tankless-Pressure/dp/B07KVCFT2K/  
$60 USD each
  2x 4inch class III stainless steel vertical vent kits, with additional piping 
as needed - depends greatly on your house but I'm assuming $1000 total
  1x device interconnect cable - I thought that these models were able to be 
ganged, can't find the serial cable to do so but I assume it'd be <$50.
  1x descaling kit  
https://www.amazon.com/Eccotemp-EZ-Flush-System-Descaler-Cleaning/dp/B01MY7AJ9D 
 $150


  By far the biggest cost would be the labour to replace the old chimney / 
galvanized B vent with the new class III stainless steel piping x2.



  On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 10:10 AM Colin Stanners  wrote:

Steve, no feces involvement here but I've been looking into water heaters 
quite a bit for a project.

For the hard water, instead or in addition to the water softener you may 
want to look into putting one of these into your hot water path. 
https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B000NKETXQ/  I wouldn't put it in the general cold 
water path - while polyphosphates are safe for consumption from what I can see, 
and I'd trust 3M to vet them well, I try to not add much to drinking water, and 
cold water is usually mostly what is used for drinking. Maybe check your 
plumbing if it's possible to add that device to the cold water path for 
everywhere except the kitchen sink, where drinking water is usually taken. The 
$80 USD price is almost "too good to be true" compared to a wa

Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-11-29 Thread Chuck McCown via AF

So, no gas but no nuclear...  

From: Bill Prince 
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 9:08 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

We have a gas tank water heater on the south/original part of the house, and a 
tankless for the north/addition. Neither is ideal because of the long pipe runs 
to some of the usage places. Everything is spread out to maximize the distance 
from the water heater(s) to where it's actually used. 

Not ideal. I have no problem with the way the house is layed out, but the 
really long water pipes is a big issue. If I were to start over, I might 
consider point-of-use water heaters, but, jeeze, that would be 8 of them; 5 
bathrooms, kitchen, laundry, and utility sink in the garage. I suppose a couple 
could be combined because they are so close together.

Another thing to consider is local codes. There are a couple places here in the 
Bay Area where they are prohibiting gas for new developments. That means no gas 
stoves/ovens; no gas dryers; no gas water heaters. That is probably the way of 
the future, so probably heat pumps or pure electric.

bp
On 11/28/2020 10:34 PM, Steve Jones wrote:

  You guys all do different weird shit. Went to drain my gas heater tonite (may 
have put that maintenance off longer than intended) 
  We are quarry country so we have super hard water. Needless to say tanks full 
of baked in sediment and when I cleared the valve I may have cracked the liner, 
about every ten seconds I'm getting a drip on the burner, and my pop off is 
dripping, probably some sediment.

  The water heater is the only thing I have that vents hot anymore and my 
chimney leaks in driving rain. Is rather just bash it in and put a dumbwaiter 
in the chase. I have the two fresh kids that I bet would have a blast riding 
that. 

  Power vent gas looks to almost double the cost.

  Tankless is looking almost comparable in price for gas, so I'm curious if any 
of you guys run them without major water softener and filters.

  I'm planning on solar in the next 5 or 6 years when I redo my roof so 
electric would be the thing I go with on the water heater after the one I'm 
gonna have to put in now.

  I like gas water heaters because I know how to fix them, parts are cheap, 
same with my clothes dryers. But theyve priced themselves into me looking at my 
options. 

  Tankless I dont know how to calculate gpm needs. But what led to this was 
taking the flow reducer out of my low flow shower head and running out of hot 
water in 20 minutes. I start my day by scalding myself for about a half hour 
cause I'm a filthy bastard and need to be cleansed of my sins.
  We have 2 bathrooms and a girl hitting her teens, so I assume we may be 
getting into a shower and bath coming on at the same time and the wife knowing 
what's good for her and washing dishes.
  She wont let me put a wood stove and still in the bathroom, so wood fired 
shower options are out.
  Are residential boilers a thing? All my walls had pocket doors so I have 
plenty of room for radiant walls, I dont know if boiler heat it even efficient 
though.

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Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-11-29 Thread Chuck McCown via AF

That's what they say, but every time I have tried to descale, it has caused 
a heat exchanger leak.  I have been running tankless for 20 years.  They 
last about 5-7 years if you are lucky.  Less if you descale.  And they are 
expensive.  But I love instant never ending hot water.


-Original Message- 
From: Seth Mattinen

Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 8:41 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

On 11/28/20 10:34 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
Tankless is looking almost comparable in price for gas, so I'm curious if 
any of you guys run them without major water softener and filters.



You'll need to de-scale a tankless with hard water or the heat exchanger
will become clogged. You'd put in isolation valves to allow running
descaling solution through it, and make sure to do that on a regular
schedule. If it clogs completely you're boned.


Are residential boilers a thing? All my walls had pocket doors so I have 
plenty of room for radiant walls, I dont know if boiler heat it even 
efficient though.


Sure, I have one. 199k BTU condensing boiler with a 110 gallon domestic
hot water (DHW) storage tank. DHW tanks are stainless steel, so they
don't have the longevity problem that faces normal steel tank water
heaters. Giant tank means hot water lasts a long time. But boilers are
expensive. My system was put in by a previous owner, so I didn't have to
pay. Boilers are really popular in all the houses around Lake Tahoe
where it's really cold in the winter. You get a steady, constant heat
rather than bursts of heat with forced air.

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Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-11-29 Thread Nate Burke

I have a tankless for 10 years now and love it.  I would replace a tank 
heater with a tankless any time.  We have semi-hard water. City water, 
combination of river/well.  Wife would like a watersoftener, I think 
it's fine.


For our 2 person household, it's been perfect.  Once you are in the 
shower, you never have to adjust the temperature no matter how long you 
stay in.  When my sister came to visit, she commented 'How do you know 
when to get out?  The water never gets cold"


However, Caveats they don't tell you about when using a tankless (At 
least my 10 year old model).


It won't get as hot as a tank heater.  On ours, you set the output 
temperature, recommended is 120 degrees, it will adjust the flow to get 
you to that temp.  It can fill a tub, or the washing machine without a 
problem.  but you notice a flow decrease when you try to do both at 
once.  If you want to sanitize with only water temperature, tankless is 
not the way to go.


It really does not like On/Off operation.  If you are the kind of person 
who rinses their dishes with 1 or 2 second bursts from the faucet, it 
will never get hot.  Our dishwasher fills like that, so it always send 
the waterheater into a burner ignition failure (that it recovers from as 
soon as sustained water is drawn)  The dishwasher has it's own internal 
heater that raises the water temp, so that's not a problem.


If your spouse turns off the shower, and you jump right in, You will 
have about 5 seconds of ice cold water at some point during your 
shower.  The water that didn't get heated yet as it went through the 
heater as it was firing up the burner.


Someone running cold water in the house has no affect on temperature, 
someone running hotwater will dramatically change your temp, as suddenly 
the hot flow is decreased until the heater burner ramps up to increase 
the output again.  Same when the other hot flow is turned off, you will 
get really hot.


I de-scale my heater every 6 months. They didn't tell me to do it when I 
got it, and it stopped working after a year.  I use 5 gallons of vinegar 
and a 1/6hp pump in a 5 gallon bucket.  The heater has built in bypass 
valves that make it super simple to hook up.  Just let the pump run the 
vinegar through for an hour (there are manufactures directions on how to 
do it)




On 11/29/2020 10:47 AM, Colin Stanners wrote:

FYI, quick pricing example for the above
2x Eccotemp 45HI-NG ( I can't find the -NG on Amazon easily but just 
for reference here's the very similar but not compatible -LP version 
https://www.amazon.com/Eccotemp-45HI-LP-Indoor-Propane-Tankless/dp/B00K2XLJIW/ 
) $530 USD each
2x Descaling/service valve kits (not the Eccotemp model but these seem 
to be compatible) 
https://www.amazon.com/Hydro-Master-Isolator-Tankless-Pressure/dp/B07KVCFT2K/ 
$60 USD each
2x 4inch class III stainless steel vertical vent kits, with additional 
piping as needed - depends greatly on your house but I'm assuming 
$1000 total
1x device interconnect cable - I thought that these models were able 
to be ganged, can't find the serial cable to do so but I assume it'd 
be <$50.
1x descaling kit 
https://www.amazon.com/Eccotemp-EZ-Flush-System-Descaler-Cleaning/dp/B01MY7AJ9D 
$150


By far the biggest cost would be the labour to replace the old chimney 
/ galvanized B vent with the new class III stainless steel piping x2.



On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 10:10 AM Colin Stanners > wrote:


Steve, no feces involvement here but I've been looking into water
heaters quite a bit for a project.

For the hard water, instead or in addition to the water softener
you may want to look into putting one of these into your hot water
path. https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B000NKETXQ/ I wouldn't put it in
the general cold water path - while polyphosphates are safe for
consumption from what I can see, and I'd trust 3M to vet them
well, I try to not add much to drinking water, and cold water is
usually mostly what is used for drinking. Maybe check your
plumbing if it's possible to add that device to the cold water
path for everywhere except the kitchen sink, where drinking water
is usually taken. The $80 USD price is almost "too good to be
true" compared to a water softener but the reviews suggest that it
works well without downsides. The cartridges are $50 each and
supposedly last 6 months.

If the chimney leaks it could be a simple fix to the rain cap or
flashing, did you inspect it? WISP experience is at least useful
for judging if it's sealed well to the roof or if the structure of
the rain cap is good in strong wind.

I would recommend doing lots of math before assuming a solar
system can run an electric water heater for a busy family - it
takes a ton of electricity to create heat, which is why tank
electric heaters take 2x-3x as much time to recover from a cold
tank as gas heaters. I don't think you'd want family m

Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-11-29 Thread Colin Stanners

FYI, quick pricing example for the above
2x Eccotemp 45HI-NG ( I can't find the -NG on Amazon easily but just for
reference here's the very similar but not compatible -LP version
https://www.amazon.com/Eccotemp-45HI-LP-Indoor-Propane-Tankless/dp/B00K2XLJIW/
) $530 USD each
2x Descaling/service valve kits (not the Eccotemp model but these seem to
be compatible)
https://www.amazon.com/Hydro-Master-Isolator-Tankless-Pressure/dp/B07KVCFT2K/
$60 USD each
2x 4inch class III stainless steel vertical vent kits, with additional
piping as needed - depends greatly on your house but I'm assuming $1000
total
1x device interconnect cable - I thought that these models were able to be
ganged, can't find the serial cable to do so but I assume it'd be <$50.
1x descaling kit
https://www.amazon.com/Eccotemp-EZ-Flush-System-Descaler-Cleaning/dp/B01MY7AJ9D
$150

By far the biggest cost would be the labour to replace the old chimney /
galvanized B vent with the new class III stainless steel piping x2.


On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 10:10 AM Colin Stanners  wrote:

> Steve, no feces involvement here but I've been looking into water heaters
> quite a bit for a project.
>
> For the hard water, instead or in addition to the water softener you may
> want to look into putting one of these into your hot water path.
> https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B000NKETXQ/  I wouldn't put it in the general
> cold water path - while polyphosphates are safe for consumption from what I
> can see, and I'd trust 3M to vet them well, I try to not add much to
> drinking water, and cold water is usually mostly what is used for drinking.
> Maybe check your plumbing if it's possible to add that device to the cold
> water path for everywhere except the kitchen sink, where drinking water is
> usually taken. The $80 USD price is almost "too good to be true" compared
> to a water softener but the reviews suggest that it works well without
> downsides. The cartridges are $50 each and supposedly last 6 months.
>
> If the chimney leaks it could be a simple fix to the rain cap or flashing,
> did you inspect it? WISP experience is at least useful for judging if it's
> sealed well to the roof or if the structure of the rain cap is good in
> strong wind.
>
> I would recommend doing lots of math before assuming a solar system can
> run an electric water heater for a busy family - it takes a ton of
> electricity to create heat, which is why tank electric heaters take 2x-3x
> as much time to recover from a cold tank as gas heaters. I don't think
> you'd want family members to wait 1-2 hours for a hot shower after someone
> else used all the water. As a reference, the bigger tankless heaters use a
> reasonable amount of gas (~150-200K BTU) but they take an inordinate,
> almost frightening, amount of electricity, ~36kW.
>
> Tankless math starts with available GPM (from temperature rise chart).
> IIRC you're in Illinois, where groundwater temp averages 47 deg F (8 deg C
> in the developed countries). Assuming that you want 120 deg water output
> from the tankless heater, that's 73 deg F temp rise. That's on the higher
> end for a tankless heater. If we look at the Eccotemp 45HI-NG natural gas
> tankless water heater, their biggest model at ~140K BTU, the chart says
> that at that temp rise it can do 2GPM, so one low-flow shower. If you want
> to run a high-flow shower and a sink, or 2 showers at the same time, you'd
> need to buy 2 units and the serial cable between them that allows them to
> run intelligently in parallel (reducing the "not activating at low water
> flow" problem by having just one of them, not both, operate in low flow
> conditions).
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 12:35 AM Steve Jones 
> wrote:
>
>> You guys all do different weird shit. Went to drain my gas heater tonite
>> (may have put that maintenance off longer than intended)
>> We are quarry country so we have super hard water. Needless to say tanks
>> full of baked in sediment and when I cleared the valve I may have cracked
>> the liner, about every ten seconds I'm getting a drip on the burner, and my
>> pop off is dripping, probably some sediment.
>>
>> The water heater is the only thing I have that vents hot anymore and my
>> chimney leaks in driving rain. Is rather just bash it in and put a
>> dumbwaiter in the chase. I have the two fresh kids that I bet would have a
>> blast riding that.
>>
>> Power vent gas looks to almost double the cost.
>>
>> Tankless is looking almost comparable in price for gas, so I'm curious if
>> any of you guys run them without major water softener and filters.
>>
>> I'm planning on solar in the next 5 or 6 years when I redo my roof so
>> electric would be the thing I go with on the water heater after the one I'm
>> gonna have to put in now.
>>
>> I like gas water heaters because I know how to fix them, parts are cheap,
>> same with my clothes dryers. But theyve priced themselves into me looking
>> at my options.
>>
>> Tankless I dont know how to calculate gpm needs. But what l

Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-11-29 Thread Colin Stanners

Steve, no feces involvement here but I've been looking into water heaters
quite a bit for a project.

For the hard water, instead or in addition to the water softener you may
want to look into putting one of these into your hot water path.
https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B000NKETXQ/  I wouldn't put it in the general cold
water path - while polyphosphates are safe for consumption from what I can
see, and I'd trust 3M to vet them well, I try to not add much to drinking
water, and cold water is usually mostly what is used for drinking. Maybe
check your plumbing if it's possible to add that device to the cold water
path for everywhere except the kitchen sink, where drinking water is
usually taken. The $80 USD price is almost "too good to be true" compared
to a water softener but the reviews suggest that it works well without
downsides. The cartridges are $50 each and supposedly last 6 months.

If the chimney leaks it could be a simple fix to the rain cap or flashing,
did you inspect it? WISP experience is at least useful for judging if it's
sealed well to the roof or if the structure of the rain cap is good in
strong wind.

I would recommend doing lots of math before assuming a solar system can run
an electric water heater for a busy family - it takes a ton of electricity
to create heat, which is why tank electric heaters take 2x-3x as much time
to recover from a cold tank as gas heaters. I don't think you'd want family
members to wait 1-2 hours for a hot shower after someone else used all the
water. As a reference, the bigger tankless heaters use a reasonable amount
of gas (~150-200K BTU) but they take an inordinate, almost frightening,
amount of electricity, ~36kW.

Tankless math starts with available GPM (from temperature rise chart). IIRC
you're in Illinois, where groundwater temp averages 47 deg F (8 deg C in
the developed countries). Assuming that you want 120 deg water output from
the tankless heater, that's 73 deg F temp rise. That's on the higher end
for a tankless heater. If we look at the Eccotemp 45HI-NG natural gas
tankless water heater, their biggest model at ~140K BTU, the chart says
that at that temp rise it can do 2GPM, so one low-flow shower. If you want
to run a high-flow shower and a sink, or 2 showers at the same time, you'd
need to buy 2 units and the serial cable between them that allows them to
run intelligently in parallel (reducing the "not activating at low water
flow" problem by having just one of them, not both, operate in low flow
conditions).

On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 12:35 AM Steve Jones 
wrote:

> You guys all do different weird shit. Went to drain my gas heater tonite
> (may have put that maintenance off longer than intended)
> We are quarry country so we have super hard water. Needless to say tanks
> full of baked in sediment and when I cleared the valve I may have cracked
> the liner, about every ten seconds I'm getting a drip on the burner, and my
> pop off is dripping, probably some sediment.
>
> The water heater is the only thing I have that vents hot anymore and my
> chimney leaks in driving rain. Is rather just bash it in and put a
> dumbwaiter in the chase. I have the two fresh kids that I bet would have a
> blast riding that.
>
> Power vent gas looks to almost double the cost.
>
> Tankless is looking almost comparable in price for gas, so I'm curious if
> any of you guys run them without major water softener and filters.
>
> I'm planning on solar in the next 5 or 6 years when I redo my roof so
> electric would be the thing I go with on the water heater after the one I'm
> gonna have to put in now.
>
> I like gas water heaters because I know how to fix them, parts are cheap,
> same with my clothes dryers. But theyve priced themselves into me looking
> at my options.
>
> Tankless I dont know how to calculate gpm needs. But what led to this was
> taking the flow reducer out of my low flow shower head and running out of
> hot water in 20 minutes. I start my day by scalding myself for about a half
> hour cause I'm a filthy bastard and need to be cleansed of my sins.
> We have 2 bathrooms and a girl hitting her teens, so I assume we may be
> getting into a shower and bath coming on at the same time and the wife
> knowing what's good for her and washing dishes.
> She wont let me put a wood stove and still in the bathroom, so wood fired
> shower options are out.
> Are residential boilers a thing? All my walls had pocket doors so I have
> plenty of room for radiant walls, I dont know if boiler heat it even
> efficient though.
>
>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-11-29 Thread Bill Prince


  
  
We have a gas tank water heater on the south/original part of the
  house, and a tankless for the north/addition. Neither is ideal
  because of the long pipe runs to some of the usage places.
  Everything is spread out to maximize the distance from the water
  heater(s) to where it's actually used. 

Not ideal. I have no problem with the way the house is layed out,
  but the really long water pipes is a big issue. If I were to start
  over, I might consider point-of-use water heaters, but, jeeze,
  that would be 8 of them; 5 bathrooms, kitchen, laundry, and
  utility sink in the garage. I suppose a couple could be combined
  because they are so close together.
Another thing to consider is local codes. There are a couple
  places here in the Bay Area where they are prohibiting gas for new
  developments. That means no gas stoves/ovens; no gas dryers; no
  gas water heaters. That is probably the way of the future, so
  probably heat pumps or pure electric.



bp

On 11/28/2020 10:34 PM, Steve Jones
  wrote:


  
  You guys all do different weird shit. Went to
drain my gas heater tonite (may have put that maintenance off
longer than intended)
We are quarry country so we have super hard
  water. Needless to say tanks full of baked in sediment and
  when I cleared the valve I may have cracked the liner, about
  every ten seconds I'm getting a drip on the burner, and my pop
  off is dripping, probably some sediment.


The water heater is the only thing I have that
  vents hot anymore and my chimney leaks in driving rain. Is
  rather just bash it in and put a dumbwaiter in the chase. I
  have the two fresh kids that I bet would have a blast riding
  that. 


Power vent gas looks to almost double the cost.


Tankless is looking almost comparable in price
  for gas, so I'm curious if any of you guys run them without
  major water softener and filters.


I'm planning on solar in the next 5 or 6 years
  when I redo my roof so electric would be the thing I go with
  on the water heater after the one I'm gonna have to put in
  now.


I like gas water heaters because I know how to
  fix them, parts are cheap, same with my clothes dryers. But
  theyve priced themselves into me looking at my options. 


Tankless I dont know how to calculate gpm needs.
  But what led to this was taking the flow reducer out of my low
  flow shower head and running out of hot water in 20 minutes. I
  start my day by scalding myself for about a half hour cause
  I'm a filthy bastard and need to be cleansed of my sins.
We have 2 bathrooms and a girl hitting her
  teens, so I assume we may be getting into a shower and bath
  coming on at the same time and the wife knowing what's good
  for her and washing dishes.
She wont let me put a wood stove and still in
  the bathroom, so wood fired shower options are out.
Are residential boilers a thing? All my walls
  had pocket doors so I have plenty of room for radiant walls, I
  dont know if boiler heat it even efficient though.








  
  
  

  


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Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-11-29 Thread Seth Mattinen


On 11/28/20 10:34 PM, Steve Jones wrote:
Tankless is looking almost comparable in price for gas, so I'm curious 
if any of you guys run them without major water softener and filters.



You'll need to de-scale a tankless with hard water or the heat exchanger 
will become clogged. You'd put in isolation valves to allow running 
descaling solution through it, and make sure to do that on a regular 
schedule. If it clogs completely you're boned.




Are residential boilers a thing? All my walls had pocket doors so I have plenty 
of room for radiant walls, I dont know if boiler heat it even efficient though.


Sure, I have one. 199k BTU condensing boiler with a 110 gallon domestic 
hot water (DHW) storage tank. DHW tanks are stainless steel, so they 
don't have the longevity problem that faces normal steel tank water 
heaters. Giant tank means hot water lasts a long time. But boilers are 
expensive. My system was put in by a previous owner, so I didn't have to 
pay. Boilers are really popular in all the houses around Lake Tahoe 
where it's really cold in the winter. You get a steady, constant heat 
rather than bursts of heat with forced air.


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Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-11-29 Thread Ken Hohhof

Almost all gas water heaters that get installed these days are the power vent 
style.  I don’t know if it’s because you can just vent the pvc pipe out the 
side of the house, I think it might be an efficiency thing also.  It does mean 
you’re venting more inside air out that pipe, but if it’s in the basement, 
that’s probably not heated air.

 

I have an electric water heater in the original part of my house, and a power 
vent gas one in the addition.  The reason for the electric water heater was the 
house was built around 1910 and when we bought it there was no gas, the furnace 
was a coal boiler converted to oil.  When we had the house piped for gas, we 
didn’t change out the water heater.  I’ve replaced it I think twice, the one 
good thing they are super easy to replace.  It’s always an emergency, so 
getting a contractor in to convert to gas doesn’t seem like the way to go.

 

I will say that having an electric water heater complicates things if you want 
to install a whole house generator.  And if you are using a portable generator 
during a power outage, it’s trivial to plug a gas water heater in along with 
the fridge and other essential stuff.  Otherwise, you’re rationing the 
remaining hot (then warm, cool, cold) water in the tank.

 

Years ago I lived in a house with point-of-use tankless gas water heaters.  
They were great.  No 60 second lag waiting for hot water.  No problem if 
multiple people wanted to take showers at the same time.  I suspect your hard 
water will be a problem though.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2020 12:34 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] Water heaters

 

You guys all do different weird shit. Went to drain my gas heater tonite (may 
have put that maintenance off longer than intended)

We are quarry country so we have super hard water. Needless to say tanks full 
of baked in sediment and when I cleared the valve I may have cracked the liner, 
about every ten seconds I'm getting a drip on the burner, and my pop off is 
dripping, probably some sediment.

 

The water heater is the only thing I have that vents hot anymore and my chimney 
leaks in driving rain. Is rather just bash it in and put a dumbwaiter in the 
chase. I have the two fresh kids that I bet would have a blast riding that. 

 

Power vent gas looks to almost double the cost.

 

Tankless is looking almost comparable in price for gas, so I'm curious if any 
of you guys run them without major water softener and filters.

 

I'm planning on solar in the next 5 or 6 years when I redo my roof so electric 
would be the thing I go with on the water heater after the one I'm gonna have 
to put in now.

 

I like gas water heaters because I know how to fix them, parts are cheap, same 
with my clothes dryers. But theyve priced themselves into me looking at my 
options. 

 

Tankless I dont know how to calculate gpm needs. But what led to this was 
taking the flow reducer out of my low flow shower head and running out of hot 
water in 20 minutes. I start my day by scalding myself for about a half hour 
cause I'm a filthy bastard and need to be cleansed of my sins.

We have 2 bathrooms and a girl hitting her teens, so I assume we may be getting 
into a shower and bath coming on at the same time and the wife knowing what's 
good for her and washing dishes.

She wont let me put a wood stove and still in the bathroom, so wood fired 
shower options are out.

Are residential boilers a thing? All my walls had pocket doors so I have plenty 
of room for radiant walls, I dont know if boiler heat it even efficient though.

 

 

 

 

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Re: [AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-11-29 Thread Forrest Christian (List Account)

In my last house with limited electricity, I ended up with a power vent
Gas.  Loved it.   Easy to install, with PVC pipe for vent.

The new place has an electric hot water heater, when it fails I might
replace it with one of the new heat pump hot water heaters, although I'll
need to do a bit more research about how useful that is in my climate
(since pulling heat out of the house isn't an ideal thing most of the year).

For a while I was enamored with moving to hot water heat and radiant floors
in the past place.   In that case, I would have bought a very efficient hot
water natural gas boiler, and then likely used a domestic hot water
exchanger for it.

Now, as to your hard water:   I highly recommend a water softener ;)

Also, you may want to be a bit more aggressive about flushing that hot
water heater...

On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 11:35 PM Steve Jones 
wrote:

> You guys all do different weird shit. Went to drain my gas heater tonite
> (may have put that maintenance off longer than intended)
> We are quarry country so we have super hard water. Needless to say tanks
> full of baked in sediment and when I cleared the valve I may have cracked
> the liner, about every ten seconds I'm getting a drip on the burner, and my
> pop off is dripping, probably some sediment.
>
> The water heater is the only thing I have that vents hot anymore and my
> chimney leaks in driving rain. Is rather just bash it in and put a
> dumbwaiter in the chase. I have the two fresh kids that I bet would have a
> blast riding that.
>
> Power vent gas looks to almost double the cost.
>
> Tankless is looking almost comparable in price for gas, so I'm curious if
> any of you guys run them without major water softener and filters.
>
> I'm planning on solar in the next 5 or 6 years when I redo my roof so
> electric would be the thing I go with on the water heater after the one I'm
> gonna have to put in now.
>
> I like gas water heaters because I know how to fix them, parts are cheap,
> same with my clothes dryers. But theyve priced themselves into me looking
> at my options.
>
> Tankless I dont know how to calculate gpm needs. But what led to this was
> taking the flow reducer out of my low flow shower head and running out of
> hot water in 20 minutes. I start my day by scalding myself for about a half
> hour cause I'm a filthy bastard and need to be cleansed of my sins.
> We have 2 bathrooms and a girl hitting her teens, so I assume we may be
> getting into a shower and bath coming on at the same time and the wife
> knowing what's good for her and washing dishes.
> She wont let me put a wood stove and still in the bathroom, so wood fired
> shower options are out.
> Are residential boilers a thing? All my walls had pocket doors so I have
> plenty of room for radiant walls, I dont know if boiler heat it even
> efficient though.
>
>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>


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[AFMUG] Water heaters

2020-11-28 Thread Steve Jones

You guys all do different weird shit. Went to drain my gas heater tonite
(may have put that maintenance off longer than intended)
We are quarry country so we have super hard water. Needless to say tanks
full of baked in sediment and when I cleared the valve I may have cracked
the liner, about every ten seconds I'm getting a drip on the burner, and my
pop off is dripping, probably some sediment.

The water heater is the only thing I have that vents hot anymore and my
chimney leaks in driving rain. Is rather just bash it in and put a
dumbwaiter in the chase. I have the two fresh kids that I bet would have a
blast riding that.

Power vent gas looks to almost double the cost.

Tankless is looking almost comparable in price for gas, so I'm curious if
any of you guys run them without major water softener and filters.

I'm planning on solar in the next 5 or 6 years when I redo my roof so
electric would be the thing I go with on the water heater after the one I'm
gonna have to put in now.

I like gas water heaters because I know how to fix them, parts are cheap,
same with my clothes dryers. But theyve priced themselves into me looking
at my options.

Tankless I dont know how to calculate gpm needs. But what led to this was
taking the flow reducer out of my low flow shower head and running out of
hot water in 20 minutes. I start my day by scalding myself for about a half
hour cause I'm a filthy bastard and need to be cleansed of my sins.
We have 2 bathrooms and a girl hitting her teens, so I assume we may be
getting into a shower and bath coming on at the same time and the wife
knowing what's good for her and washing dishes.
She wont let me put a wood stove and still in the bathroom, so wood fired
shower options are out.
Are residential boilers a thing? All my walls had pocket doors so I have
plenty of room for radiant walls, I dont know if boiler heat it even
efficient though.
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