Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Robert Andrews]

I keep a lookout for dead freezers on facebook and other local sales 
channels...


On 8/17/23 18:20, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
If the batteries were in a tight, very well insulated container, keeping 
them warm will take very little energy.  Think of a giant dewar box. 
Once they are at temp they should hold it.  And discharge as well as 
charge will cause them to heat.

*From:* Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 5:25 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
Yeah... for on-grid backup power, running heaters shouldn't be a big 
problem, but off-grid is a different animal. Warming the batteries up 
enough to charge could take a lot of power.
All the lifepo4 batteries I've looked at list the minimum discharge 
temperature at -20C, which isn't terrible, but they need to be at least 
0C to charge. The discharge temperature isn't hard cut-off where it 
won't work or will wreck the batteries sort of thing, as far as I can 
tell, but the charging temperature is.
On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 6:02 PM Robert Andrews  
wrote:


For off grid, it also has to have heaters.  Not being able to charge is
just as crippling if your site never gets above freezing long enough to
charge the batteries in the winter.   Getting the batteries heated JUST
off the solar output ( not off of grid power ) is tricky and I am not
convinced that anything less than an 8K solar array is going to keep a
LFP site with any real draw happy over a winter.   That's a killer...

On 8/17/23 13:58, Brian Webster wrote:
 > The temp issue as I understand it is the low temp disconnect when
charge
 > so as not to try and charge when the batteries are too cold. The
LiTime
 > batteries now have low temp disconnect in their internal battery
BMS.
 > Their prices are very good. The longevity of LiFePo batteries
more than
 > justifies the slightly added cost for the battery. If the
temperature
 > does not stay below the disconnect temp for longer than you have run
 > time, you are good. Remembering the LiFePo batteries give you full
 > capacity of their rated WH not only 50% like lead acid. They are
a lot
 > lighter too. So more useable WH can also reduce your battery
count (and
 > overall cost) that you need. Use a proper LiFePo charger and the
 > charging profile lets you dump almost full capacity to the batteries
 > that the panels produce. This should get the battery up to or
closer to
 > the full voltage sooner, allowing you to run the equipment off
the power
 > from the panels for a longer period of time as well. This of course
 > stretches your battery capacity too. When you can push full current
 > through the charger to the batteries, even short periods of sun
can get
 > your battery charged or partially charged faster than the charging
 > profiles required for lead acid or AGM batteries.
 >
 > Thank you,
 >
 > Brian Webster
 >
 > *From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mathew
Howard
 > *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 4:14 PM
 > *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
 > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
 >
 > Yeah, temperature is the main problem I'm seeing with going to
lithiums.
 > I can throw an SLA battery in an unheated box at our towers and it's
 > going to work good enough, even in the middle of winter, but the
minimum
 > charging temperature for LFP batteries is 32F, which we're going
to be
 > below for a good part of the year.
 >
 > On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 3:08 PM Bill Prince  <mailto:part15...@gmail.com>> wrote:
 >
 > Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost"
the same
 > price as lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less
than half
 > the space as lead acid, and will last at least twice as long.
There
 > is the issue of temperature sensitivity and they will need
help for
 > extremely cold environments.
 >
 > bp
 >
 > 
 >
 > On 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com
 > <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote:
 >
 > Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?
 >
 > Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x
 > the $/Wh to buy Lithium.
 >
 > *From:* AF 
 > <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
 > *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
 > *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
 > <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
 > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
 >
 >

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Chuck McCown via AF]

If the batteries were in a tight, very well insulated container, keeping them 
warm will take very little energy.  Think of a giant dewar box.  Once they are 
at temp they should hold it.  And discharge as well as charge will cause them 
to heat.  



From: Mathew Howard 
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 5:25 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Yeah... for on-grid backup power, running heaters shouldn't be a big problem, 
but off-grid is a different animal. Warming the batteries up enough to charge 
could take a lot of power. 

All the lifepo4 batteries I've looked at list the minimum discharge temperature 
at -20C, which isn't terrible, but they need to be at least 0C to charge. The 
discharge temperature isn't hard cut-off where it won't work or will wreck the 
batteries sort of thing, as far as I can tell, but the charging temperature is.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 6:02 PM Robert Andrews  wrote:

  For off grid, it also has to have heaters.  Not being able to charge is 
  just as crippling if your site never gets above freezing long enough to 
  charge the batteries in the winter.   Getting the batteries heated JUST 
  off the solar output ( not off of grid power ) is tricky and I am not 
  convinced that anything less than an 8K solar array is going to keep a 
  LFP site with any real draw happy over a winter.   That's a killer...

  On 8/17/23 13:58, Brian Webster wrote:
  > The temp issue as I understand it is the low temp disconnect when charge 
  > so as not to try and charge when the batteries are too cold. The LiTime 
  > batteries now have low temp disconnect in their internal battery BMS. 
  > Their prices are very good. The longevity of LiFePo batteries more than 
  > justifies the slightly added cost for the battery. If the temperature 
  > does not stay below the disconnect temp for longer than you have run 
  > time, you are good. Remembering the LiFePo batteries give you full 
  > capacity of their rated WH not only 50% like lead acid. They are a lot 
  > lighter too. So more useable WH can also reduce your battery count (and 
  > overall cost) that you need. Use a proper LiFePo charger and the 
  > charging profile lets you dump almost full capacity to the batteries 
  > that the panels produce. This should get the battery up to or closer to 
  > the full voltage sooner, allowing you to run the equipment off the power 
  > from the panels for a longer period of time as well. This of course 
  > stretches your battery capacity too. When you can push full current 
  > through the charger to the batteries, even short periods of sun can get 
  > your battery charged or partially charged faster than the charging 
  > profiles required for lead acid or AGM batteries.
  > 
  > Thank you,
  > 
  > Brian Webster
  > 
  > *From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
  > *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 4:14 PM
  > *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
  > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
  > 
  > Yeah, temperature is the main problem I'm seeing with going to lithiums. 
  > I can throw an SLA battery in an unheated box at our towers and it's 
  > going to work good enough, even in the middle of winter, but the minimum 
  > charging temperature for LFP batteries is 32F, which we're going to be 
  > below for a good part of the year.
  > 
  > On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 3:08 PM Bill Prince  <mailto:part15...@gmail.com>> wrote:
  > 
  > Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost" the same
  > price as lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less than half
  > the space as lead acid, and will last at least twice as long. There
  > is the issue of temperature sensitivity and they will need help for
  > extremely cold environments.
  > 
  > bp
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > On 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com
  > <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote:
  > 
  > Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?
  > 
  > Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x
  > the $/Wh to buy Lithium.
  > 
  > *From:* AF 
  > <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
  > *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
  > *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  > <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
  > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
  > 
  > Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and
  > space requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries
  > don't last forever, so you have to factor in replacement costs
  > too, which will be a significant ongoing cost for a larger
  > system. I'm 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Mathew Howard]

Yeah... for on-grid backup power, running heaters shouldn't be a big
problem, but off-grid is a different animal. Warming the batteries up
enough to charge could take a lot of power.

All the lifepo4 batteries I've looked at list the minimum discharge
temperature at -20C, which isn't terrible, but they need to be at least 0C
to charge. The discharge temperature isn't hard cut-off where it won't work
or will wreck the batteries sort of thing, as far as I can tell, but the
charging temperature is.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 6:02 PM Robert Andrews 
wrote:

> For off grid, it also has to have heaters.  Not being able to charge is
> just as crippling if your site never gets above freezing long enough to
> charge the batteries in the winter.   Getting the batteries heated JUST
> off the solar output ( not off of grid power ) is tricky and I am not
> convinced that anything less than an 8K solar array is going to keep a
> LFP site with any real draw happy over a winter.   That's a killer...
>
> On 8/17/23 13:58, Brian Webster wrote:
> > The temp issue as I understand it is the low temp disconnect when charge
> > so as not to try and charge when the batteries are too cold. The LiTime
> > batteries now have low temp disconnect in their internal battery BMS.
> > Their prices are very good. The longevity of LiFePo batteries more than
> > justifies the slightly added cost for the battery. If the temperature
> > does not stay below the disconnect temp for longer than you have run
> > time, you are good. Remembering the LiFePo batteries give you full
> > capacity of their rated WH not only 50% like lead acid. They are a lot
> > lighter too. So more useable WH can also reduce your battery count (and
> > overall cost) that you need. Use a proper LiFePo charger and the
> > charging profile lets you dump almost full capacity to the batteries
> > that the panels produce. This should get the battery up to or closer to
> > the full voltage sooner, allowing you to run the equipment off the power
> > from the panels for a longer period of time as well. This of course
> > stretches your battery capacity too. When you can push full current
> > through the charger to the batteries, even short periods of sun can get
> > your battery charged or partially charged faster than the charging
> > profiles required for lead acid or AGM batteries.
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Brian Webster
> >
> > *From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> > *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 4:14 PM
> > *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
> >
> > Yeah, temperature is the main problem I'm seeing with going to lithiums.
> > I can throw an SLA battery in an unheated box at our towers and it's
> > going to work good enough, even in the middle of winter, but the minimum
> > charging temperature for LFP batteries is 32F, which we're going to be
> > below for a good part of the year.
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 3:08 PM Bill Prince  > <mailto:part15...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost" the same
> > price as lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less than half
> > the space as lead acid, and will last at least twice as long. There
> > is the issue of temperature sensitivity and they will need help for
> > extremely cold environments.
> >
> > bp
> >
> > 
> >
> > On 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com
> > <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?
> >
> > Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x
> > the $/Wh to buy Lithium.
> >
> > *From:* AF 
> > <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> > *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
> > *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> > <mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
> > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
> >
> > Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and
> > space requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries
> > don't last forever, so you have to factor in replacement costs
> > too, which will be a significant ongoing cost for a larger
> > system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries would be cheaper
> > long term now, since they should have a lot longer life span and
> > the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Mathew Howard]

Most of them that I've looked at say they support up to 4 in series,
whether they work well or not, I don't know. I imagine they could end up
with balance issues over time, but other than that, I don't know what
problems there would be.

I said 125 because the nominal voltage for lifepo4 cells is 3.2v. Full
charge is 3.65v, but if I remember correctly, they'll drop down to around
3.4v pretty quickly and then level off. If you need to keep above 400v,
you'd want 125.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 5:09 PM TJ Trout  wrote:

> Which did you see that supports beyond 4 in series? I would be interested
> to check those out.
>
> 125*3.65vpc= 456v
>
> I guess you need 125 if your running at nominal voltage (partial state of
> charge)
>
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 2:35 PM Mathew Howard  wrote:
>
>> I put four of the sealed 12v lifepo4 batteries in an electric lawn mower
>> (it originally had lead acid), and it works well enough, but yeah, a single
>> BMS is preferable, and I haven't seen any that say they can do more than 4
>> in series anyway.
>>
>> With lifepo4 you'll need 125 cells to get 400v... I'm not sure where
>> you'd find a BMS that will handle that though. I assume there must be
>> something out there.
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 4:06 PM TJ Trout  wrote:
>>
>>> Many of them have integrated heaters.
>>>
>>> Sealed lifepo4 batteries should only be used at the nameplate voltage
>>> 12v for example, some will support up to four in series for a 48 volt
>>> configuration but it's a hack job to do it that way.
>>>
>>> If you need 400v at 100ah you will need 110 qty of 100ah cells and a
>>> compatible BMS.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 1:51 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> My electric car loses significant range at temps below 35F and as a
>>>> double whammy, will not accept a full charge at low temps either.
>>>>
>>>> Lead acid work at low temps but if they get too far discharged they
>>>> will freeze.  Gates Cyclons were advertised to be able to be fully charged
>>>> and discharged when frozen.
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Mathew Howard
>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 2:13 PM
>>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, temperature is the main problem I'm seeing with going to
>>>> lithiums. I can throw an SLA battery in an unheated box at our towers and
>>>> it's going to work good enough, even in the middle of winter, but the
>>>> minimum charging temperature for LFP batteries is 32F, which we're going to
>>>> be below for a good part of the year.
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 3:08 PM Bill Prince 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost" the same
>>>>> price as lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less than half the
>>>>> space as lead acid, and will last at least twice as long. There is the
>>>>> issue of temperature sensitivity and they will need help for extremely 
>>>>> cold
>>>>> environments.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> bp
>>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?
>>>>>
>>>>> Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh
>>>>> to buy Lithium.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
>>>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space
>>>>> requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever,
>>>>> so you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a 
>>>>> significant
>>>>> ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries
>>>>> would be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life
>>>>> span and the initial cost isn't a lot high

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Robert Andrews]

For off grid, it also has to have heaters.  Not being able to charge is 
just as crippling if your site never gets above freezing long enough to 
charge the batteries in the winter.   Getting the batteries heated JUST 
off the solar output ( not off of grid power ) is tricky and I am not 
convinced that anything less than an 8K solar array is going to keep a 
LFP site with any real draw happy over a winter.   That's a killer...


On 8/17/23 13:58, Brian Webster wrote:
The temp issue as I understand it is the low temp disconnect when charge 
so as not to try and charge when the batteries are too cold. The LiTime 
batteries now have low temp disconnect in their internal battery BMS. 
Their prices are very good. The longevity of LiFePo batteries more than 
justifies the slightly added cost for the battery. If the temperature 
does not stay below the disconnect temp for longer than you have run 
time, you are good. Remembering the LiFePo batteries give you full 
capacity of their rated WH not only 50% like lead acid. They are a lot 
lighter too. So more useable WH can also reduce your battery count (and 
overall cost) that you need. Use a proper LiFePo charger and the 
charging profile lets you dump almost full capacity to the batteries 
that the panels produce. This should get the battery up to or closer to 
the full voltage sooner, allowing you to run the equipment off the power 
from the panels for a longer period of time as well. This of course 
stretches your battery capacity too. When you can push full current 
through the charger to the batteries, even short periods of sun can get 
your battery charged or partially charged faster than the charging 
profiles required for lead acid or AGM batteries.


Thank you,

Brian Webster

*From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 4:14 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Yeah, temperature is the main problem I'm seeing with going to lithiums. 
I can throw an SLA battery in an unheated box at our towers and it's 
going to work good enough, even in the middle of winter, but the minimum 
charging temperature for LFP batteries is 32F, which we're going to be 
below for a good part of the year.


On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 3:08 PM Bill Prince <mailto:part15...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost" the same
price as lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less than half
the space as lead acid, and will last at least twice as long. There
is the issue of temperature sensitivity and they will need help for
extremely cold environments.

bp



On 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com
<mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?

Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x
the $/Wh to buy Lithium.

*From:* AF 
<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
<mailto:af@af.afmug.com>
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and
space requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries
don't last forever, so you have to factor in replacement costs
too, which will be a significant ongoing cost for a larger
system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries would be cheaper
long term now, since they should have a lot longer life span and
the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is
required, which means you need more power.

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building
for a tiny load does make the costs easier.  But if you
wanted a second AP, bigger backhaul, or anything else you
can’t do it without growing the whole power system
proportionally.

Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end
hardware now is using a lot of signal processing either to
reassemble useful data out of garbage or for beam steering,
or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for an AP.  You’d
be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and
most of them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy that
equipment….but building for a 20W load takes the choice away.

A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is
2400W.  Even 2400W would power almost any WISP deployment. 
Building solar to handle any load you might have is

expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs you.

You do your thi

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Robert Andrews]

I just wish Will Prowse would start doing heater reviews on LFP 
batteries, but he's in Vegas and that's the last thing on his mind.  But 
it's critical for everyone north of Lat 36


On 8/17/23 13:07, TJ Trout wrote:
Don't buy 12v lifepo4 batteries for series use, it's much better to buy 
a 24v or 48v battery as it will have one BMS and keep balanced.


https://signaturesolar.com/shop-all/batteries/ 



Some of the main players are signature solar, trophy battery, and a 
bunch of others look at Will prowse solar on YouTube and you can see 
reviews of all of the different 48 volt batteries.


On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 1:03 PM Mathew Howard > wrote:


LiFePO4. There are a few different ways you can go with that though.
You can get something like these:
https://www.18650batterystore.com/products/eve-lf280k
 which I
think actually comes out slightly cheaper than SLA/AGM, but then you
need a separate BMS, or you can get something like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/166234057827
 which is made to be a drop
in replacement for lead acids, and has a built in BMS.


On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 2:37 PM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about? 

Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x
the $/Wh to buy Lithium. 

__ __

__ __

*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

__ __

Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and
space requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries
don't last forever, so you have to factor in replacement costs
too, which will be a significant ongoing cost for a larger
system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries would be cheaper
long term now, since they should have a lot longer life span and
the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is
required, which means you need more power.

__ __

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:

That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building
for a tiny load does make the costs easier.  But if you
wanted a second AP, bigger backhaul, or anything else you
can’t do it without growing the whole power system
proportionally.



Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end
hardware now is using a lot of signal processing either to
reassemble useful data out of garbage or for beam steering,
or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for an AP.  You’d
be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and
most of them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy that
equipment….but building for a 20W load takes the choice
away. 



A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is
2400W.  Even 2400W would power almost any WISP deployment. 
Building solar to handle any load you might have is

expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs you. 

You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working
for you then it’s good, but I can’t see myself going that
direction.



-Adam







*From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question



I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that
having extra battery capacity is more helpful than
oversizing the solar panels, so I'd probably go with Chuck's
numbers for batteries if I was putting something together
now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400
watts (if mounting space allows for it, which could be an
issue if we're trying to fit it on a pole). 



A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160,
so 6 of those would give me 7200 watt hours, for just under
$1k. At $1500 (which is mostly just adjusting battery and
panel sizes from where I started at $1k), I'm right in line
with Chuck's estimate, aside from 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[TJ Trout]

Which did you see that supports beyond 4 in series? I would be interested
to check those out.

125*3.65vpc= 456v

I guess you need 125 if your running at nominal voltage (partial state of
charge)

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 2:35 PM Mathew Howard  wrote:

> I put four of the sealed 12v lifepo4 batteries in an electric lawn mower
> (it originally had lead acid), and it works well enough, but yeah, a single
> BMS is preferable, and I haven't seen any that say they can do more than 4
> in series anyway.
>
> With lifepo4 you'll need 125 cells to get 400v... I'm not sure where you'd
> find a BMS that will handle that though. I assume there must be something
> out there.
>
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 4:06 PM TJ Trout  wrote:
>
>> Many of them have integrated heaters.
>>
>> Sealed lifepo4 batteries should only be used at the nameplate voltage 12v
>> for example, some will support up to four in series for a 48 volt
>> configuration but it's a hack job to do it that way.
>>
>> If you need 400v at 100ah you will need 110 qty of 100ah cells and a
>> compatible BMS.
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 1:51 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> My electric car loses significant range at temps below 35F and as a
>>> double whammy, will not accept a full charge at low temps either.
>>>
>>> Lead acid work at low temps but if they get too far discharged they will
>>> freeze.  Gates Cyclons were advertised to be able to be fully charged and
>>> discharged when frozen.
>>>
>>> *From:* Mathew Howard
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 2:13 PM
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>>
>>> Yeah, temperature is the main problem I'm seeing with going to lithiums.
>>> I can throw an SLA battery in an unheated box at our towers and it's going
>>> to work good enough, even in the middle of winter, but the minimum charging
>>> temperature for LFP batteries is 32F, which we're going to be below for a
>>> good part of the year.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 3:08 PM Bill Prince  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost" the same
>>>> price as lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less than half the
>>>> space as lead acid, and will last at least twice as long. There is the
>>>> issue of temperature sensitivity and they will need help for extremely cold
>>>> environments.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> bp
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>> On 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?
>>>>
>>>> Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh
>>>> to buy Lithium.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
>>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space
>>>> requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever,
>>>> so you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant
>>>> ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries
>>>> would be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life
>>>> span and the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required,
>>>> which means you need more power.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny
>>>> load does make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger
>>>> backhaul, or anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power
>>>> system proportionally.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is
>>>> using a lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of
>>>> garbage or for beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for
>>>> an AP.  You’d be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and
>>>> most

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Chuck McCown via AF]

Well... battery manufacturers (lead acid stationary) have used their Ah rating 
at 1.85 VPC (or some down as low as 1.65 VPC).  

Certainly 1.65 vpc is a totally run down battery.
2 volts is frequently listed as 50% DOD.  

If GNB says you have 200Ah (1.85 VPC) at a certain discharge rate, they 
actually will deliver the full 200 Ah and it appears many would think 1.85 VPC 
is 100 useful DOD.  1.85 x 24 =44.4 and most gear will work down to that, but 
at some point North of 40 volts it usually quits.  

They also state that at 100% DOD you can get 250 cycles.  With 10% DOD you can 
get 1500 cycles.  In all my years working in telco central offices, I have 
never had one run batts so low that it went off line.  You always got a 
generator going if was going to be an extended outage.  We had to put in a 
minimum of 8 hours run time for RUS funded C.O.s So most telco batts probably 
get retired with maybe 10 significant discharge events on them in a 10-20 year 
period.  

So, in this sense, they are not being misleading stating capacity, but that is 
for a telco application.

Solar powered applications, not so simple.  You really gotta decide right from 
the git-go how many cycles you want your batts to last.  From that determine 
what DOD will get you there, from that you have to figure out the capacity 
derating factor.  

Much easier doing this calculation for telco.  



From: Brian Webster 
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 2:58 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

The temp issue as I understand it is the low temp disconnect when charge so as 
not to try and charge when the batteries are too cold. The LiTime batteries now 
have low temp disconnect in their internal battery BMS. Their prices are very 
good. The longevity of LiFePo batteries more than justifies the slightly added 
cost for the battery. If the temperature does not stay below the disconnect 
temp for longer than you have run time, you are good. Remembering the LiFePo 
batteries give you full capacity of their rated WH not only 50% like lead acid. 
They are a lot lighter too. So more useable WH can also reduce your battery 
count (and overall cost) that you need. Use a proper LiFePo charger and the 
charging profile lets you dump almost full capacity to the batteries that the 
panels produce. This should get the battery up to or closer to the full voltage 
sooner, allowing you to run the equipment off the power from the panels for a 
longer period of time as well. This of course stretches your battery capacity 
too. When you can push full current through the charger to the batteries, even 
short periods of sun can get your battery charged or partially charged faster 
than the charging profiles required for lead acid or AGM batteries.

 

Thank you,

Brian Webster

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 4:14 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

Yeah, temperature is the main problem I'm seeing with going to lithiums. I can 
throw an SLA battery in an unheated box at our towers and it's going to work 
good enough, even in the middle of winter, but the minimum charging temperature 
for LFP batteries is 32F, which we're going to be below for a good part of the 
year.

 

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 3:08 PM Bill Prince  wrote:

  Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost" the same price as 
lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less than half the space as lead 
acid, and will last at least twice as long. There is the issue of temperature 
sensitivity and they will need help for extremely cold environments.

   

bpOn 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:

Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?  

Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh to 
buy Lithium.  

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space 
requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever, so 
you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant 
ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries would 
be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life span and the 
initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required, which means you 
need more power.

 

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM  wrote:

  That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny load 
does make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger backhaul, or 
anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power system 
proportionally.

   

  Steve was talking 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Mathew Howard]

I put four of the sealed 12v lifepo4 batteries in an electric lawn mower
(it originally had lead acid), and it works well enough, but yeah, a single
BMS is preferable, and I haven't seen any that say they can do more than 4
in series anyway.

With lifepo4 you'll need 125 cells to get 400v... I'm not sure where you'd
find a BMS that will handle that though. I assume there must be something
out there.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 4:06 PM TJ Trout  wrote:

> Many of them have integrated heaters.
>
> Sealed lifepo4 batteries should only be used at the nameplate voltage 12v
> for example, some will support up to four in series for a 48 volt
> configuration but it's a hack job to do it that way.
>
> If you need 400v at 100ah you will need 110 qty of 100ah cells and a
> compatible BMS.
>
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 1:51 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:
>
>> My electric car loses significant range at temps below 35F and as a
>> double whammy, will not accept a full charge at low temps either.
>>
>> Lead acid work at low temps but if they get too far discharged they will
>> freeze.  Gates Cyclons were advertised to be able to be fully charged and
>> discharged when frozen.
>>
>> *From:* Mathew Howard
>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 2:13 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>
>> Yeah, temperature is the main problem I'm seeing with going to lithiums.
>> I can throw an SLA battery in an unheated box at our towers and it's going
>> to work good enough, even in the middle of winter, but the minimum charging
>> temperature for LFP batteries is 32F, which we're going to be below for a
>> good part of the year.
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 3:08 PM Bill Prince  wrote:
>>
>>> Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost" the same
>>> price as lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less than half the
>>> space as lead acid, and will last at least twice as long. There is the
>>> issue of temperature sensitivity and they will need help for extremely cold
>>> environments.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> bp
>>> 
>>>
>>> On 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?
>>>
>>> Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh
>>> to buy Lithium.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space
>>> requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever,
>>> so you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant
>>> ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries
>>> would be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life
>>> span and the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required,
>>> which means you need more power.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM  wrote:
>>>
>>> That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny
>>> load does make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger
>>> backhaul, or anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power
>>> system proportionally.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is
>>> using a lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of
>>> garbage or for beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for
>>> an AP.  You’d be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and
>>> most of them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but
>>> building for a 20W load takes the choice away.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even
>>> 2400W would power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to handle any
>>> load you might have is expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs
>>> you.
>>>
>>> You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you then
>>> it’s good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.
>>>
>>>
>>&

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Brian Webster]

The temp issue as I understand it is the low temp disconnect when charge so as 
not to try and charge when the batteries are too cold. The LiTime batteries now 
have low temp disconnect in their internal battery BMS. Their prices are very 
good. The longevity of LiFePo batteries more than justifies the slightly added 
cost for the battery. If the temperature does not stay below the disconnect 
temp for longer than you have run time, you are good. Remembering the LiFePo 
batteries give you full capacity of their rated WH not only 50% like lead acid. 
They are a lot lighter too. So more useable WH can also reduce your battery 
count (and overall cost) that you need. Use a proper LiFePo charger and the 
charging profile lets you dump almost full capacity to the batteries that the 
panels produce. This should get the battery up to or closer to the full voltage 
sooner, allowing you to run the equipment off the power from the panels for a 
longer period of time as well. This of course stretches your battery capacity 
too. When you can push full current through the charger to the batteries, even 
short periods of sun can get your battery charged or partially charged faster 
than the charging profiles required for lead acid or AGM batteries.

 

Thank you,

Brian Webster

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 4:14 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

Yeah, temperature is the main problem I'm seeing with going to lithiums. I can 
throw an SLA battery in an unheated box at our towers and it's going to work 
good enough, even in the middle of winter, but the minimum charging temperature 
for LFP batteries is 32F, which we're going to be below for a good part of the 
year.

 

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 3:08 PM Bill Prince  wrote:

Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost" the same price as 
lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less than half the space as lead 
acid, and will last at least twice as long. There is the issue of temperature 
sensitivity and they will need help for extremely cold environments.

 

bp


On 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:

Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?  

Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh to buy 
Lithium.  

 

 

From: AF  <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>  On Behalf 
Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group  <mailto:af@af.afmug.com> 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space 
requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever, so 
you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant 
ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries would 
be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life span and the 
initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required, which means you 
need more power.

 

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM  wrote:

That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny load does 
make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger backhaul, or 
anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power system 
proportionally.

 

Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is using a 
lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of garbage or for 
beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for an AP.  You’d be 
hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and most of them are 50W+.  
We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but building for a 20W load takes 
the choice away.  

 

A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even 2400W would 
power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to handle any load you might 
have is expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs you.

You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you then it’s 
good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.

 

-Adam

 

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having extra 
battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar panels, so I'd 
probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was putting something 
together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400 watts (if 
mounting space allows for it, which could be an issue if we're trying to fit it 
on a pole). 

 

A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of those would 
give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At $1500 (which is mostly just 
adjusting battery and panel sizes from where I started at $1k), I'm right

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[TJ Trout]

Many of them have integrated heaters.

Sealed lifepo4 batteries should only be used at the nameplate voltage 12v
for example, some will support up to four in series for a 48 volt
configuration but it's a hack job to do it that way.

If you need 400v at 100ah you will need 110 qty of 100ah cells and a
compatible BMS.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 1:51 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> My electric car loses significant range at temps below 35F and as a double
> whammy, will not accept a full charge at low temps either.
>
> Lead acid work at low temps but if they get too far discharged they will
> freeze.  Gates Cyclons were advertised to be able to be fully charged and
> discharged when frozen.
>
> *From:* Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 2:13 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
> Yeah, temperature is the main problem I'm seeing with going to lithiums. I
> can throw an SLA battery in an unheated box at our towers and it's going to
> work good enough, even in the middle of winter, but the minimum charging
> temperature for LFP batteries is 32F, which we're going to be below for a
> good part of the year.
>
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 3:08 PM Bill Prince  wrote:
>
>> Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost" the same
>> price as lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less than half the
>> space as lead acid, and will last at least twice as long. There is the
>> issue of temperature sensitivity and they will need help for extremely cold
>> environments.
>>
>>
>>
>> bp
>> 
>>
>> On 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?
>>
>> Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh to
>> buy Lithium.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>
>>
>>
>> Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space
>> requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever,
>> so you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant
>> ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries
>> would be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life
>> span and the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required,
>> which means you need more power.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM  wrote:
>>
>> That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny load
>> does make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger
>> backhaul, or anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power
>> system proportionally.
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is
>> using a lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of
>> garbage or for beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for
>> an AP.  You’d be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and
>> most of them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but
>> building for a 20W load takes the choice away.
>>
>>
>>
>> A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even 2400W
>> would power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to handle any load
>> you might have is expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs
>> you.
>>
>> You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you then
>> it’s good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Adam
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having extra
>> battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar panels, so I'd
>> probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was putting something
>> together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400 watts
>> (if mounting space allows for it, which could be an issue if we're trying
>> to fit it on a pole).
>>
>>
>>
>> A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $1

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Chuck McCown via AF]

My electric car loses significant range at temps below 35F and as a double 
whammy, will not accept a full charge at low temps either.  

Lead acid work at low temps but if they get too far discharged they will 
freeze.  Gates Cyclons were advertised to be able to be fully charged and 
discharged when frozen.  

From: Mathew Howard 
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 2:13 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Yeah, temperature is the main problem I'm seeing with going to lithiums. I can 
throw an SLA battery in an unheated box at our towers and it's going to work 
good enough, even in the middle of winter, but the minimum charging temperature 
for LFP batteries is 32F, which we're going to be below for a good part of the 
year.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 3:08 PM Bill Prince  wrote:

  Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost" the same price as 
lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less than half the space as lead 
acid, and will last at least twice as long. There is the issue of temperature 
sensitivity and they will need help for extremely cold environments.



bp
On 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:

Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?  

Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh to 
buy Lithium.  





From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question



Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space 
requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever, so 
you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant 
ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries would 
be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life span and the 
initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required, which means you 
need more power.



On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM  wrote:

  That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny load 
does make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger backhaul, or 
anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power system 
proportionally.



  Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is 
using a lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of 
garbage or for beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for an 
AP.  You’d be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and most of 
them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but building for a 
20W load takes the choice away.  



  A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even 2400W 
would power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to handle any load you 
might have is expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs you.

  You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you then 
it’s good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.



  -Adam







  From: AF  On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
  Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question



  I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having extra 
battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar panels, so I'd 
probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was putting something 
together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400 watts (if 
mounting space allows for it, which could be an issue if we're trying to fit it 
on a pole). 



  A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of those 
would give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At $1500 (which is mostly 
just adjusting battery and panel sizes from where I started at $1k), I'm right 
in line with Chuck's estimate, aside from the battery costs.



  On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 3:33 PM  wrote:

I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State 
I’m 2 degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N

What’s your latitude?



From: AF  On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question



Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a 
site like that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the actual 
load is around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of battery. It had 
some issues in January a couple years, but I attributed that more to using 
cheap flooded deep cycles, rather than not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's 
gotten through the last couple of winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can be 
had for around $800, last I checked

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Chuck McCown via AF]

That is 15 cents per watt.  On par with lead acid.  

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation 
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com

From: TJ Trout 
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 2:04 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Way cheaper to use lifepo4 now than using telecom lead acid if you look at the 
whole picture 

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 1:03 PM Mathew Howard  wrote:

  LiFePO4. There are a few different ways you can go with that though. You can 
get something like these: https://www.18650batterystore.com/products/eve-lf280k 
which I think actually comes out slightly cheaper than SLA/AGM, but then you 
need a separate BMS, or you can get something like this: 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/166234057827 which is made to be a drop in replacement 
for lead acids, and has a built in BMS. 


  On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 2:37 PM  wrote:

Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?  

Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh to 
buy Lithium.  





From: AF  On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question



Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space 
requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever, so 
you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant 
ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries would 
be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life span and the 
initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required, which means you 
need more power.



On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM  wrote:

  That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny load 
does make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger backhaul, or 
anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power system 
proportionally.



  Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is 
using a lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of 
garbage or for beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for an 
AP.  You’d be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and most of 
them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but building for a 
20W load takes the choice away.  



  A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even 2400W 
would power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to handle any load you 
might have is expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs you.

  You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you then 
it’s good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.



  -Adam







  From: AF  On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
  Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question



  I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having extra 
battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar panels, so I'd 
probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was putting something 
together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400 watts (if 
mounting space allows for it, which could be an issue if we're trying to fit it 
on a pole). 



  A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of those 
would give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At $1500 (which is mostly 
just adjusting battery and panel sizes from where I started at $1k), I'm right 
in line with Chuck's estimate, aside from the battery costs.



  On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 3:33 PM  wrote:

I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State 
I’m 2 degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N

What’s your latitude?



From: AF  On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question



Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a 
site like that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the actual 
load is around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of battery. It had 
some issues in January a couple years, but I attributed that more to using 
cheap flooded deep cycles, rather than not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's 
gotten through the last couple of winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can be 
had for around $800, last I checked. Probably looking at closer to $1500 when 
you add in enclosures and mounts, but some of that is replacing parts that are 
needed with AC power anyway (smaller enclosure, backup batteries, power 
supply), so that offsets it a bit.



On Wed, Aug 16

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Mathew Howard]

Yeah, temperature is the main problem I'm seeing with going to lithiums. I
can throw an SLA battery in an unheated box at our towers and it's going to
work good enough, even in the middle of winter, but the minimum charging
temperature for LFP batteries is 32F, which we're going to be below for a
good part of the year.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 3:08 PM Bill Prince  wrote:

> Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost" the same price
> as lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less than half the space as
> lead acid, and will last at least twice as long. There is the issue of
> temperature sensitivity and they will need help for extremely cold
> environments.
>
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?
>
> Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh to
> buy Lithium.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF   *On Behalf
> Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group  
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space
> requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever,
> so you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant
> ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries
> would be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life
> span and the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required,
> which means you need more power.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM  wrote:
>
> That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny load
> does make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger
> backhaul, or anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power
> system proportionally.
>
>
>
> Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is
> using a lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of
> garbage or for beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for
> an AP.  You’d be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and
> most of them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but
> building for a 20W load takes the choice away.
>
>
>
> A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even 2400W
> would power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to handle any load
> you might have is expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs
> you.
>
> You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you then
> it’s good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.
>
>
>
> -Adam
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having extra
> battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar panels, so I'd
> probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was putting something
> together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400 watts
> (if mounting space allows for it, which could be an issue if we're trying
> to fit it on a pole).
>
>
>
> A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of those
> would give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At $1500 (which is
> mostly just adjusting battery and panel sizes from where I started at $1k),
> I'm right in line with Chuck's estimate, aside from the battery costs.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 3:33 PM  wrote:
>
> I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State I’m
> 2 degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N
>
> What’s your latitude?
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a site
> like that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the actual load
> is around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of battery. It had
> some issues in January a couple years, but I attributed that more to using
> cheap flooded deep cycles, rather than not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's
> gotten through the last couple of winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can
> be had for around $800, last I checked. Probably looking at closer to $1500
> when you add in enclosures and mounts, but some of that is replacing parts
> that are nee

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Daniel Pautz via AF]

Those look pretty interesting.   We just dropped 10 grand on new bats for one 
of our 350KW UPS’s which use two strings of 100AH bats,  I was looking around 
but just couldn’t get to the happy spot with going Lithium,   many of them said 
max 3 or 4 in series which kind of kill it as these need 400v+.   Our other 
500KW ups’s use thousands of the cheapy 9AH bats,   takes some of the employees 
weeks to swap those battery packs out,  but nice thing about those is no worry 
of 1 battery from each string being enough to kill the ups,  with dozens of 
strings the probability is very low.

From: AF  On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 2:01 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

LiFePO4. There are a few different ways you can go with that though. You can 
get something like these: https://www.18650batterystore.com/products/eve-lf280k 
which I think actually comes out slightly cheaper than SLA/AGM, but then you 
need a separate BMS, or you can get something like this: 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/166234057827 which is made to be a drop in replacement 
for lead acids, and has a built in BMS.


On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 2:37 PM 
mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?
Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh to buy 
Lithium.


From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Mathew Howard
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space 
requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever, so 
you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant 
ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries would 
be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life span and the 
initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required, which means you 
need more power.

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM 
mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:
That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny load does 
make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger backhaul, or 
anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power system 
proportionally.

Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is using a 
lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of garbage or for 
beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for an AP.  You’d be 
hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and most of them are 50W+.  
We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but building for a 20W load takes 
the choice away.

A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even 2400W would 
power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to handle any load you might 
have is expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs you.
You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you then it’s 
good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.

-Adam



From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Mathew Howard
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having extra 
battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar panels, so I'd 
probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was putting something 
together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400 watts (if 
mounting space allows for it, which could be an issue if we're trying to fit it 
on a pole).

A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of those would 
give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At $1500 (which is mostly just 
adjusting battery and panel sizes from where I started at $1k), I'm right in 
line with Chuck's estimate, aside from the battery costs.

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 3:33 PM 
mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State I’m 2 
degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N
What’s your latitude?

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Mathew Howard
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a site like 
that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the actual load is 
around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of battery. It had some 
issues in January a couple years, but I attributed that more to using cheap 
flooded deep cycles, rather than not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's gotten 
through the last couple of winters without issues. 4k

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[TJ Trout]

Don't buy 12v lifepo4 batteries for series use, it's much better to buy a
24v or 48v battery as it will have one BMS and keep balanced.

https://signaturesolar.com/shop-all/batteries/

Some of the main players are signature solar, trophy battery, and a bunch
of others look at Will prowse solar on YouTube and you can see reviews of
all of the different 48 volt batteries.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 1:03 PM Mathew Howard  wrote:

> LiFePO4. There are a few different ways you can go with that though. You
> can get something like these:
> https://www.18650batterystore.com/products/eve-lf280k which I think
> actually comes out slightly cheaper than SLA/AGM, but then you need a
> separate BMS, or you can get something like this:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/166234057827 which is made to be a drop in
> replacement for lead acids, and has a built in BMS.
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 2:37 PM  wrote:
>
>> Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?
>>
>> Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh to
>> buy Lithium.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>
>>
>>
>> Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space
>> requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever,
>> so you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant
>> ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries
>> would be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life
>> span and the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required,
>> which means you need more power.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM  wrote:
>>
>> That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny load
>> does make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger
>> backhaul, or anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power
>> system proportionally.
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is
>> using a lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of
>> garbage or for beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for
>> an AP.  You’d be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and
>> most of them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but
>> building for a 20W load takes the choice away.
>>
>>
>>
>> A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even 2400W
>> would power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to handle any load
>> you might have is expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs
>> you.
>>
>> You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you then
>> it’s good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Adam
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having extra
>> battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar panels, so I'd
>> probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was putting something
>> together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400 watts
>> (if mounting space allows for it, which could be an issue if we're trying
>> to fit it on a pole).
>>
>>
>>
>> A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of those
>> would give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At $1500 (which is
>> mostly just adjusting battery and panel sizes from where I started at $1k),
>> I'm right in line with Chuck's estimate, aside from the battery costs.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 3:33 PM  wrote:
>>
>> I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State I’m
>> 2 degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N
>>
>> What’s your latitude?
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>
>>
>>
>> Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a site
>> like that here (Wisconsin) with 200 wat

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Bill Prince]

Things have evolved. You can get LFP batteries for "almost" the same 
price as lead acid. Sometimes less even. They occupy less than half the 
space as lead acid, and will last at least twice as long. There is the 
issue of temperature sensitivity and they will need help for extremely 
cold environments.



bp


On 8/17/2023 12:36 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:


Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?

Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh 
to buy Lithium.


*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space 
requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last 
forever, so you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be 
a significant ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that 
lithium batteries would be cheaper long term now, since they should 
have a lot longer life span and the initial cost isn't a lot higher, 
but then heating is required, which means you need more power.


On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM  wrote:

That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a
tiny load does make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second
AP, bigger backhaul, or anything else you can’t do it without
growing the whole power system proportionally.

Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware
now is using a lot of signal processing either to reassemble
useful data out of garbage or for beam steering, or both.  So you
end up needing 100-150W for an AP.  You’d be hard pressed to find
a licensed backhaul under 35W, and most of them are 50W+.  We
could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but building for a 20W
load takes the choice away.

A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W. 
Even 2400W would power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar
to handle any load you might have is expensive, and building for
only low power handcuffs you.

You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you
then it’s good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.

-Adam

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that
having extra battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the
solar panels, so I'd probably go with Chuck's numbers for
batteries if I was putting something together now, and solar
panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400 watts (if mounting
space allows for it, which could be an issue if we're trying to
fit it on a pole).

A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6
of those would give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At
$1500 (which is mostly just adjusting battery and panel sizes from
where I started at $1k), I'm right in line with Chuck's estimate,
aside from the battery costs.

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 3:33 PM  wrote:

I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central
NY State I’m 2 degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N

What’s your latitude?

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I
did a site like that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel
(I think the actual load is around 15 watts, so a bit more
than 10x), and ~4kwh of battery. It had some issues in January
a couple years, but I attributed that more to using cheap
flooded deep cycles, rather than not enough capacity. With
AGMs, it's gotten through the last couple of winters without
issues. 4kwh of AGMs can be had for around $800, last I
checked. Probably looking at closer to $1500 when you add in
enclosures and mounts, but some of that is replacing parts
that are needed with AC power anyway (smaller enclosure,
backup batteries, power supply), so that offsets it a bit.

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 2:50 PM Chuck McCown via AF
 wrote:

Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in
mountain top location for a 20 watt load I would do the
following that has never failed me:

Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these
days.

2 weeks of battery autonomy.

20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts

Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.

$2500 and it will never go down in 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[TJ Trout]

Way cheaper to use lifepo4 now than using telecom lead acid if you look at
the whole picture

On Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 1:03 PM Mathew Howard  wrote:

> LiFePO4. There are a few different ways you can go with that though. You
> can get something like these:
> https://www.18650batterystore.com/products/eve-lf280k which I think
> actually comes out slightly cheaper than SLA/AGM, but then you need a
> separate BMS, or you can get something like this:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/166234057827 which is made to be a drop in
> replacement for lead acids, and has a built in BMS.
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 2:37 PM  wrote:
>
>> Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?
>>
>> Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh to
>> buy Lithium.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>
>>
>>
>> Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space
>> requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever,
>> so you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant
>> ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries
>> would be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life
>> span and the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required,
>> which means you need more power.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM  wrote:
>>
>> That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny load
>> does make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger
>> backhaul, or anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power
>> system proportionally.
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is
>> using a lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of
>> garbage or for beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for
>> an AP.  You’d be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and
>> most of them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but
>> building for a 20W load takes the choice away.
>>
>>
>>
>> A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even 2400W
>> would power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to handle any load
>> you might have is expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs
>> you.
>>
>> You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you then
>> it’s good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Adam
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having extra
>> battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar panels, so I'd
>> probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was putting something
>> together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400 watts
>> (if mounting space allows for it, which could be an issue if we're trying
>> to fit it on a pole).
>>
>>
>>
>> A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of those
>> would give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At $1500 (which is
>> mostly just adjusting battery and panel sizes from where I started at $1k),
>> I'm right in line with Chuck's estimate, aside from the battery costs.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 3:33 PM  wrote:
>>
>> I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State I’m
>> 2 degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N
>>
>> What’s your latitude?
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>
>>
>>
>> Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a site
>> like that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the actual load
>> is around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of battery. It had
>> some issues in January a couple years, but I attributed that more to using
>> cheap flooded deep cycles, rather than not enough capacity. With 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Mathew Howard]

LiFePO4. There are a few different ways you can go with that though. You
can get something like these:
https://www.18650batterystore.com/products/eve-lf280k which I think
actually comes out slightly cheaper than SLA/AGM, but then you need a
separate BMS, or you can get something like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/166234057827 which is made to be a drop in
replacement for lead acids, and has a built in BMS.


On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 2:37 PM  wrote:

> Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?
>
> Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh to
> buy Lithium.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space
> requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever,
> so you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant
> ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries
> would be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life
> span and the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required,
> which means you need more power.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM  wrote:
>
> That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny load
> does make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger
> backhaul, or anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power
> system proportionally.
>
>
>
> Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is
> using a lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of
> garbage or for beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for
> an AP.  You’d be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and
> most of them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but
> building for a 20W load takes the choice away.
>
>
>
> A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even 2400W
> would power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to handle any load
> you might have is expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs
> you.
>
> You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you then
> it’s good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.
>
>
>
> -Adam
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having extra
> battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar panels, so I'd
> probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was putting something
> together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400 watts
> (if mounting space allows for it, which could be an issue if we're trying
> to fit it on a pole).
>
>
>
> A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of those
> would give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At $1500 (which is
> mostly just adjusting battery and panel sizes from where I started at $1k),
> I'm right in line with Chuck's estimate, aside from the battery costs.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 3:33 PM  wrote:
>
> I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State I’m
> 2 degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N
>
> What’s your latitude?
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a site
> like that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the actual load
> is around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of battery. It had
> some issues in January a couple years, but I attributed that more to using
> cheap flooded deep cycles, rather than not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's
> gotten through the last couple of winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can
> be had for around $800, last I checked. Probably looking at closer to $1500
> when you add in enclosures and mounts, but some of that is replacing parts
> that are needed with AC power anyway (smaller enclosure, backup batteries,
> power supply), so that offsets it a bit.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 2:50 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
> Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in mountain top
> location for a 20 watt load I would do the following that has never 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[dmmoffett]

Ooh What lithium batteries are we talking about?  

Last time I checked (a number of years ago), it was around 5x the $/Wh to buy 
Lithium.  

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2023 10:51 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space 
requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever, so 
you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant 
ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries would 
be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life span and the 
initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required, which means you 
need more power.

 

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote:

That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny load does 
make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger backhaul, or 
anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power system 
proportionally.

 

Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is using a 
lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of garbage or for 
beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for an AP.  You’d be 
hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and most of them are 50W+.  
We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but building for a 20W load takes 
the choice away.  

 

A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even 2400W would 
power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to handle any load you might 
have is expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs you.

You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you then it’s 
good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.

 

-Adam

 

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having extra 
battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar panels, so I'd 
probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was putting something 
together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400 watts (if 
mounting space allows for it, which could be an issue if we're trying to fit it 
on a pole). 

 

A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of those would 
give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At $1500 (which is mostly just 
adjusting battery and panel sizes from where I started at $1k), I'm right in 
line with Chuck's estimate, aside from the battery costs.

 

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 3:33 PM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote:

I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State I’m 2 
degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N

What’s your latitude?

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a site like 
that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the actual load is 
around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of battery. It had some 
issues in January a couple years, but I attributed that more to using cheap 
flooded deep cycles, rather than not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's gotten 
through the last couple of winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can be had for 
around $800, last I checked. Probably looking at closer to $1500 when you add 
in enclosures and mounts, but some of that is replacing parts that are needed 
with AC power anyway (smaller enclosure, backup batteries, power supply), so 
that offsets it a bit.

 

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 2:50 PM Chuck McCown via AF mailto:af@af.afmug.com> > wrote:

Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in mountain top 
location for a 20 watt load I would do the following that has never failed me:

 

Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.  

2 weeks of battery autonomy.  

20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts

Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.

 

$2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah latitude on top of 
Utah mountains.  

 

 

 

From: Mathew Howard 

Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal micropop can be 
done with less than 20 watts of load (single AP and backhaul). I can put 
together a solar setup for around $1000 that will power that.

 

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM mailto:dmm

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Mathew Howard]

Well, right. It doesn't scale well, because battery costs and space
requirements will quickly become a problem. Batteries don't last forever,
so you have to factor in replacement costs too, which will be a significant
ongoing cost for a larger system. I'm pretty sure that lithium batteries
would be cheaper long term now, since they should have a lot longer life
span and the initial cost isn't a lot higher, but then heating is required,
which means you need more power.

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 7:02 PM  wrote:

> That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny load
> does make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger
> backhaul, or anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power
> system proportionally.
>
>
>
> Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is
> using a lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of
> garbage or for beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for
> an AP.  You’d be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and
> most of them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but
> building for a 20W load takes the choice away.
>
>
>
> A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even 2400W
> would power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to handle any load
> you might have is expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs
> you.
>
> You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you then
> it’s good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.
>
>
>
> -Adam
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having extra
> battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar panels, so I'd
> probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was putting something
> together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400 watts
> (if mounting space allows for it, which could be an issue if we're trying
> to fit it on a pole).
>
>
>
> A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of those
> would give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At $1500 (which is
> mostly just adjusting battery and panel sizes from where I started at $1k),
> I'm right in line with Chuck's estimate, aside from the battery costs.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 3:33 PM  wrote:
>
> I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State I’m
> 2 degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N
>
> What’s your latitude?
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a site
> like that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the actual load
> is around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of battery. It had
> some issues in January a couple years, but I attributed that more to using
> cheap flooded deep cycles, rather than not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's
> gotten through the last couple of winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can
> be had for around $800, last I checked. Probably looking at closer to $1500
> when you add in enclosures and mounts, but some of that is replacing parts
> that are needed with AC power anyway (smaller enclosure, backup batteries,
> power supply), so that offsets it a bit.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 2:50 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
> Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in mountain top
> location for a 20 watt load I would do the following that has never failed
> me:
>
>
>
> Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.
>
> 2 weeks of battery autonomy.
>
> 20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts
>
> Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.
>
>
>
> $2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah latitude on top
> of Utah mountains.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Mathew Howard
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM
>
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal micropop can
> be done with less than 20 watts of load (single AP and backhaul). I can put
> together a solar setup for around $1000 that will power that.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM  wrote:
>
> I 

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Robert]

We love Morningstar 60mppt for lower end solar, ethernet ( no security ) 
complete configuration available and priced lower than most other stuff 
for a serious amount of solar.   For bigger the 600Volt is available, 
for bigger than that the signature solar controllers will do about 
anything you want, even with lithium.   They just released an _outdoor_ 
14.5KW (heated!) battery for 4K.  With that you can build a site that 
will handle about anything..  Licensed links, heated shelters.. etc...


On 8/16/23 6:58 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:


That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny 
load does make the costs easier. But if you wanted a second AP, bigger 
backhaul, or anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole 
power system proportionally.


Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is 
using a lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out 
of garbage or for beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 
100-150W for an AP. You’d be hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul 
under 35W, and most of them are 50W+.  We could say we won’t deploy 
that equipment….but building for a 20W load takes the choice away.


A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even 
2400W would power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to 
handle any load you might have is expensive, and building for only low 
power handcuffs you.


You do your thing your way, no judgement. If it’s working for you then 
it’s good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.


-Adam

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having 
extra battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar 
panels, so I'd probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was 
putting something together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, 
so figure 400 watts (if mounting space allows for it, which could be 
an issue if we're trying to fit it on a pole).


A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of 
those would give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At $1500 
(which is mostly just adjusting battery and panel sizes from where I 
started at $1k), I'm right in line with Chuck's estimate, aside from 
the battery costs.


On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 3:33 PM  wrote:

I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY
State I’m 2 degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N

What’s your latitude?

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did
a site like that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think
the actual load is around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and
~4kwh of battery. It had some issues in January a couple years,
but I attributed that more to using cheap flooded deep cycles,
rather than not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's gotten through
the last couple of winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can be had
for around $800, last I checked. Probably looking at closer to
$1500 when you add in enclosures and mounts, but some of that is
replacing parts that are needed with AC power anyway (smaller
enclosure, backup batteries, power supply), so that offsets it a bit.

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 2:50 PM Chuck McCown via AF
 wrote:

Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in
mountain top location for a 20 watt load I would do the
following that has never failed me:

Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.

2 weeks of battery autonomy.

20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts

Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.

$2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah
latitude on top of Utah mountains.

*From:*Mathew Howard

*Sent:*Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM

*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal
micropop can be done with less than 20 watts of load (single
AP and backhaul). I can put together a solar setup for around
$1000 that will power that.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM  wrote:

I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to
electric that’ll be cheaper than solar.  The problem is
the need to run 24/7.  You have to design around the
December-January months. I’m in NY State, and at our
latitude we only get a few hours of average production per
day during those

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Robert]

Surprisingly, not a lot.  10-15% which in line with their summer 
production.  Winter with snow, people were reporting production 20-25% 
higher and much higher when the panels are covered with snow behind and 
sunlight there were videos of 20% production when regular panels were 
zero.   This was at sites with both panels types side by side...


On 8/16/23 4:35 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
I presume they are more expensive?  Is the watts per square foot the 
same?


-Original Message- From: Robert
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 3:00 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Or just get bifacials...   The can do that and the incoming solar from
the back side increases snowmelt 2x, as tested by youtubers last
lear...  I was on the fence but the videos were pretty convincing...
The performace boost in winter is way more than summer...

On 8/16/23 3:14 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
We had a storm blow a set of panels over so they were pointed down. 
They were 10 feet off the ground and we were getting significant 
power from the sunlight reflected off the snow.


If I was going to build another system that is super critical, and 
unaccessible in winter, I think I would mount a set of extra panels 
upside down over a white reflecting surface.



-Original Message- From: Robert Andrews
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:56 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

When not buried in a historic snow load or positioned correctly so that
the snow falls off the panels and a 200 foot cliff...

On 8/16/23 12:46, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in mountain 
top location for a 20 watt load I would do the following that has 
never failed me:

Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.
2 weeks of battery autonomy.
20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts
Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.
$2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah latitude 
on top of Utah mountains.

*From:* Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal 
micropop can be done with less than 20 watts of load (single AP and 
backhaul). I can put together a solar setup for around $1000 that 
will power that.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM  wrote:

    I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric 
that’ll

    be cheaper than solar.  The problem is the need to run 24/7.  You
    have to design around the December-January months.  I’m in NY 
State,

    and at our latitude we only get a few hours of average production
    per day during those months.  And obviously if it’s snowing for a
    week you need to be able to ride through that on mostly battery
    power.  Even with a modest load it takes a silly amount of panels
    and batteries to stay up 24/7 in the winter.  More than you’d ever
    be allowed to put on a utility pole. 

    

    Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can get. 
Explain what you’re trying to do and that your max load is very low.

    

    NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an 
exception

    and let us do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service rated panel, a
    conduit up the pole and a weatherhead.  Then you either have an
    outdoor outlet, or have an outlet inside your enclosure. You’ll
    want the smallest service they’ll let you do because of the wire
    size on the service cable.  A 20A (if they’d allow it) would only
    need a 12/3 with ground, and that’s up to 4800 Watts (240x20) so
    it’s still more than you’d ever need.   A 12/3 is way cheaper 
than a

    100A service entrance cable.

    

    My figure is 8 years old, and obviously there’s been inflation 
since

    then, but I went to the same contractor who does electric installs
    for the cable company and they quoted me about $1000. Even if it’s
    3x that for you today you’d still never beat that with a solar
    installation even if they’d let you do it.  And I’m not some
    knee-jerk anti-solar lunatic, I’m just saying I’ve run the numbers
    and it doesn’t add up.   People do it when they’re off grid, or 
when

    the electric service is unreliable in the area, or sometimes just
    for the PR/marketing power of being “solar powered”. Those are all
    fine reasons, but doing it for cost savings isn’t going to work 
out.


    

    -Adam

    

    

    *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
    *Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:27 AM
    *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

    

    we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops (our
    own poles). We are losing a grain elevator site because they
    decommissioned the elevator and theres

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[dmmoffett]

That’s building strictly for a 20W load though.  Building for a tiny load does 
make the costs easier.  But if you wanted a second AP, bigger backhaul, or 
anything else you can’t do it without growing the whole power system 
proportionally.

 

Steve was talking a 50W load today.  The real high end hardware now is using a 
lot of signal processing either to reassemble useful data out of garbage or for 
beam steering, or both.  So you end up needing 100-150W for an AP.  You’d be 
hard pressed to find a licensed backhaul under 35W, and most of them are 50W+.  
We could say we won’t deploy that equipment….but building for a 20W load takes 
the choice away.  

 

A 20A 240v circuit is 4800W.  Or a 20A 120V circuit is 2400W.  Even 2400W would 
power almost any WISP deployment.  Building solar to handle any load you might 
have is expensive, and building for only low power handcuffs you.

You do your thing your way, no judgement.  If it’s working for you then it’s 
good, but I can’t see myself going that direction.

 

-Adam

 

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 5:01 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having extra 
battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar panels, so I'd 
probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was putting something 
together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400 watts (if 
mounting space allows for it, which could be an issue if we're trying to fit it 
on a pole). 

 

A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of those would 
give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At $1500 (which is mostly just 
adjusting battery and panel sizes from where I started at $1k), I'm right in 
line with Chuck's estimate, aside from the battery costs.

 

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 3:33 PM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote:

I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State I’m 2 
degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N

What’s your latitude?

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a site like 
that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the actual load is 
around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of battery. It had some 
issues in January a couple years, but I attributed that more to using cheap 
flooded deep cycles, rather than not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's gotten 
through the last couple of winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can be had for 
around $800, last I checked. Probably looking at closer to $1500 when you add 
in enclosures and mounts, but some of that is replacing parts that are needed 
with AC power anyway (smaller enclosure, backup batteries, power supply), so 
that offsets it a bit.

 

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 2:50 PM Chuck McCown via AF mailto:af@af.afmug.com> > wrote:

Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in mountain top 
location for a 20 watt load I would do the following that has never failed me:

 

Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.  

2 weeks of battery autonomy.  

20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts

Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.

 

$2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah latitude on top of 
Utah mountains.  

 

 

 

From: Mathew Howard 

Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal micropop can be 
done with less than 20 watts of load (single AP and backhaul). I can put 
together a solar setup for around $1000 that will power that.

 

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote:

I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric that’ll be cheaper 
than solar.  The problem is the need to run 24/7.  You have to design around 
the December-January months.  I’m in NY State, and at our latitude we only get 
a few hours of average production per day during those months.  And obviously 
if it’s snowing for a week you need to be able to ride through that on mostly 
battery power.  Even with a modest load it takes a silly amount of panels and 
batteries to stay up 24/7 in the winter.  More than you’d ever be allowed to 
put on a utility pole. 

 

Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can get.  Explain what 
you’re trying to do and that your max load is very low.  

NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an exception and let us 
do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service rated panel, a conduit up the pole and 
a weatherhead.  Then you

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Chuck McCown via AF]

I set up a CO2 powered deicing system once.  It was kinda successful.  My 
business partner published pictures of it and we instantly had BLM cops saying 
we were dumping antifreeze.  

Yes we were but it was propylene glycol.  They didn’t care.  I told them that 
their own BLM aircraft use this to deice at airports and while airborne.  They 
didn’t care.

I fully expected it once I found he had posted the photos.  He loved attention. 
 



From: Robert 
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 3:09 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

We are at 39 _but_ the snowfall this winter was epic.   Rivaling Chucks...  We 
aren't on tippytops but with high panel angles and decent breaks in the 
coverage we only had to clear panels out a few times with the tracked ranger... 
 Still got stuck a few times requiring one rescue aid   We did have to 
clear out the area beneath the panels like five times.. but shaping the gap 
encouraged scouring that minimized visits. only one site out of 6 required 
generator service for one day.  Way better than 16 when we ran gennies at 3 
sites for 1.5 months on and off..




On 8/16/23 3:30 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:

  I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State I’m 2 
degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N

  What’s your latitude?

   

  From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
  Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

   

  Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a site like 
that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the actual load is 
around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of battery. It had some 
issues in January a couple years, but I attributed that more to using cheap 
flooded deep cycles, rather than not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's gotten 
through the last couple of winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can be had for 
around $800, last I checked. Probably looking at closer to $1500 when you add 
in enclosures and mounts, but some of that is replacing parts that are needed 
with AC power anyway (smaller enclosure, backup batteries, power supply), so 
that offsets it a bit.

   

  On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 2:50 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in mountain top 
location for a 20 watt load I would do the following that has never failed me:

 

Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.  

2 weeks of battery autonomy.  

20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts

Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.

 

$2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah latitude on top 
of Utah mountains.  

 

 

 

From: Mathew Howard 

Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal micropop can 
be done with less than 20 watts of load (single AP and backhaul). I can put 
together a solar setup for around $1000 that will power that.

 

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM  wrote:

  I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric that’ll be 
cheaper than solar.  The problem is the need to run 24/7.  You have to design 
around the December-January months.  I’m in NY State, and at our latitude we 
only get a few hours of average production per day during those months.  And 
obviously if it’s snowing for a week you need to be able to ride through that 
on mostly battery power.  Even with a modest load it takes a silly amount of 
panels and batteries to stay up 24/7 in the winter.  More than you’d ever be 
allowed to put on a utility pole. 

   

  Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can get.  Explain 
what you’re trying to do and that your max load is very low.  

  NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an exception and 
let us do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service rated panel, a conduit up the 
pole and a weatherhead.  Then you either have an outdoor outlet, or have an 
outlet inside your enclosure.  You’ll want the smallest service they’ll let you 
do because of the wire size on the service cable.  A 20A (if they’d allow it) 
would only need a 12/3 with ground, and that’s up to 4800 Watts (240x20) so 
it’s still more than you’d ever need.   A 12/3 is way cheaper than a 100A 
service entrance cable.

   

  My figure is 8 years old, and obviously there’s been inflation since 
then, but I went to the same contractor who does electric installs for the 
cable company and they quoted me about $1000.  Even if it’s 3x that for you 
today you’d still never beat that with a solar installation even if they’d let 
you do it.  And I’m not some knee-jerk anti-solar lunatic, I’m

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Chuck McCown via AF]

I presume they are more expensive?  Is the watts per square foot the same?

-Original Message- 
From: Robert

Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 3:00 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Or just get bifacials...   The can do that and the incoming solar from
the back side increases snowmelt 2x, as tested by youtubers last
lear...  I was on the fence but the videos were pretty convincing...
The performace boost in winter is way more than summer...

On 8/16/23 3:14 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
We had a storm blow a set of panels over so they were pointed down. They 
were 10 feet off the ground and we were getting significant power from the 
sunlight reflected off the snow.


If I was going to build another system that is super critical, and 
unaccessible in winter, I think I would mount a set of extra panels upside 
down over a white reflecting surface.



-Original Message- From: Robert Andrews
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:56 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

When not buried in a historic snow load or positioned correctly so that
the snow falls off the panels and a 200 foot cliff...

On 8/16/23 12:46, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in mountain top 
location for a 20 watt load I would do the following that has never 
failed me:

Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.
2 weeks of battery autonomy.
20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts
Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.
$2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah latitude on 
top of Utah mountains.

*From:* Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal micropop can 
be done with less than 20 watts of load (single AP and backhaul). I can 
put together a solar setup for around $1000 that will power that.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM  wrote:

I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric that’ll
be cheaper than solar.  The problem is the need to run 24/7.  You
have to design around the December-January months.  I’m in NY State,
and at our latitude we only get a few hours of average production
per day during those months.  And obviously if it’s snowing for a
week you need to be able to ride through that on mostly battery
power.  Even with a modest load it takes a silly amount of panels
and batteries to stay up 24/7 in the winter.  More than you’d ever
be allowed to put on a utility pole. 



Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can get. 
Explain what you’re trying to do and that your max load is very low.



NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an exception
and let us do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service rated panel, a
conduit up the pole and a weatherhead.  Then you either have an
outdoor outlet, or have an outlet inside your enclosure. You’ll
want the smallest service they’ll let you do because of the wire
size on the service cable.  A 20A (if they’d allow it) would only
need a 12/3 with ground, and that’s up to 4800 Watts (240x20) so
it’s still more than you’d ever need.   A 12/3 is way cheaper than a
100A service entrance cable.



My figure is 8 years old, and obviously there’s been inflation since
then, but I went to the same contractor who does electric installs
for the cable company and they quoted me about $1000.  Even if it’s
3x that for you today you’d still never beat that with a solar
installation even if they’d let you do it.  And I’m not some
knee-jerk anti-solar lunatic, I’m just saying I’ve run the numbers
and it doesn’t add up.   People do it when they’re off grid, or when
the electric service is unreliable in the area, or sometimes just
for the PR/marketing power of being “solar powered”.  Those are all
fine reasons, but doing it for cost savings isn’t going to work 
out.




-Adam





*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:27 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question



we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops (our
own poles). We are losing a grain elevator site because they
decommissioned the elevator and theres no real options for the
customers in some of the areas. Im just trying to get to something
we can get solar power with enough battery to last through overcast.
So Im calculating per battery runtimes, then will look at number of
batteries we would need to survive vs paying for a ROW meter vs
losing the customers. Just have to get to the cost per customer to
retain them and the benefit

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Robert]

We are at 39 _but_ the snowfall this winter was epic.   Rivaling 
Chucks...  We aren't on tippytops but with high panel angles and decent 
breaks in the coverage we only had to clear panels out a few times with 
the tracked ranger...  Still got stuck a few times requiring one rescue 
aid   We did have to clear out the area beneath the panels like five 
times.. but shaping the gap encouraged scouring that minimized visits. 
only one site out of 6 required generator service for one day.  Way 
better than 16 when we ran gennies at 3 sites for 1.5 months on and off..




On 8/16/23 3:30 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:


I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State 
I’m 2 degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N


What’s your latitude?

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a 
site like that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the 
actual load is around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of 
battery. It had some issues in January a couple years, but I 
attributed that more to using cheap flooded deep cycles, rather than 
not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's gotten through the last couple of 
winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can be had for around $800, last 
I checked. Probably looking at closer to $1500 when you add in 
enclosures and mounts, but some of that is replacing parts that are 
needed with AC power anyway (smaller enclosure, backup batteries, 
power supply), so that offsets it a bit.


On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 2:50 PM Chuck McCown via AF  
wrote:


Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in
mountain top location for a 20 watt load I would do the following
that has never failed me:

Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.

2 weeks of battery autonomy.

20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts

Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.

$2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah
latitude on top of Utah mountains.

*From:*Mathew Howard

*Sent:*Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM

*To:*AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group

*Subject:*Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal
micropop can be done with less than 20 watts of load (single AP
and backhaul). I can put together a solar setup for around $1000
that will power that.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM  wrote:

I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric
that’ll be cheaper than solar.  The problem is the need to run
24/7.  You have to design around the December-January months. 
I’m in NY State, and at our latitude we only get a few hours
of average production per day during those months.  And
obviously if it’s snowing for a week you need to be able to
ride through that on mostly battery power.  Even with a modest
load it takes a silly amount of panels and batteries to stay
up 24/7 in the winter.  More than you’d ever be allowed to put
on a utility pole.

Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can
get.  Explain what you’re trying to do and that your max load
is very low.

NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an
exception and let us do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service
rated panel, a conduit up the pole and a weatherhead.  Then
you either have an outdoor outlet, or have an outlet inside
your enclosure. You’ll want the smallest service they’ll let
you do because of the wire size on the service cable.  A 20A
(if they’d allow it) would only need a 12/3 with ground, and
that’s up to 4800 Watts (240x20) so it’s still more than you’d
ever need.   A 12/3 is way cheaper than a 100A service
entrance cable.

My figure is 8 years old, and obviously there’s been inflation
since then, but I went to the same contractor who does
electric installs for the cable company and they quoted me
about $1000.  Even if it’s 3x that for you today you’d still
never beat that with a solar installation even if they’d let
you do it.  And I’m not some knee-jerk anti-solar lunatic, I’m
just saying I’ve run the numbers and it doesn’t add up.  
People do it when they’re off grid, or when the electric
service is unreliable in the area, or sometimes just for the
PR/marketing power of being “solar powered”.  Those are all
fine reasons, but doing it for cost savings isn’t going to
work out.

-Adam

*From:*AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:27 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Mathew Howard]

I'm at about the same latitude as you. My experience is that having extra
battery capacity is more helpful than oversizing the solar panels, so I'd
probably go with Chuck's numbers for batteries if I was putting something
together now, and solar panels are cheap now anyway, so figure 400 watts
(if mounting space allows for it, which could be an issue if we're trying
to fit it on a pole).

A quick check on Amazon shows 100ah SLA batteries for $160, so 6 of those
would give me 7200 watt hours, for just under $1k. At $1500 (which is
mostly just adjusting battery and panel sizes from where I started at $1k),
I'm right in line with Chuck's estimate, aside from the battery costs.

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 3:33 PM  wrote:

> I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State I’m
> 2 degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N
>
> What’s your latitude?
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a site
> like that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the actual load
> is around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of battery. It had
> some issues in January a couple years, but I attributed that more to using
> cheap flooded deep cycles, rather than not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's
> gotten through the last couple of winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can
> be had for around $800, last I checked. Probably looking at closer to $1500
> when you add in enclosures and mounts, but some of that is replacing parts
> that are needed with AC power anyway (smaller enclosure, backup batteries,
> power supply), so that offsets it a bit.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 2:50 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
> Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in mountain top
> location for a 20 watt load I would do the following that has never failed
> me:
>
>
>
> Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.
>
> 2 weeks of battery autonomy.
>
> 20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts
>
> Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.
>
>
>
> $2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah latitude on top
> of Utah mountains.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Mathew Howard
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM
>
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal micropop can
> be done with less than 20 watts of load (single AP and backhaul). I can put
> together a solar setup for around $1000 that will power that.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM  wrote:
>
> I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric that’ll be
> cheaper than solar.  The problem is the need to run 24/7.  You have to
> design around the December-January months.  I’m in NY State, and at our
> latitude we only get a few hours of average production per day during those
> months.  And obviously if it’s snowing for a week you need to be able to
> ride through that on mostly battery power.  Even with a modest load it
> takes a silly amount of panels and batteries to stay up 24/7 in the
> winter.  More than you’d ever be allowed to put on a utility pole.
>
>
>
> Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can get.  Explain
> what you’re trying to do and that your max load is very low.
>
> NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an exception and
> let us do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service rated panel, a conduit up
> the pole and a weatherhead.  Then you either have an outdoor outlet, or
> have an outlet inside your enclosure.  You’ll want the smallest service
> they’ll let you do because of the wire size on the service cable.  A 20A
> (if they’d allow it) would only need a 12/3 with ground, and that’s up to
> 4800 Watts (240x20) so it’s still more than you’d ever need.   A 12/3 is
> way cheaper than a 100A service entrance cable.
>
>
>
> My figure is 8 years old, and obviously there’s been inflation since then,
> but I went to the same contractor who does electric installs for the cable
> company and they quoted me about $1000.  Even if it’s 3x that for you today
> you’d still never beat that with a solar installation even if they’d let
> you do it.  And I’m not some knee-jerk anti-solar lunatic, I’m just saying
> I’ve run the numbers and it doesn’t add up.   People do it when they’re off
> grid, or when the electric service is unreliable in the area, or sometimes
> just for the PR/marketing power of bein

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Robert]

Or just get bifacials...   The can do that and the incoming solar from 
the back side increases snowmelt 2x, as tested by youtubers last 
lear...  I was on the fence but the videos were pretty convincing...   
The performace boost in winter is way more than summer...


On 8/16/23 3:14 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
We had a storm blow a set of panels over so they were pointed down. 
They were 10 feet off the ground and we were getting significant power 
from the sunlight reflected off the snow.


If I was going to build another system that is super critical, and 
unaccessible in winter, I think I would mount a set of extra panels 
upside down over a white reflecting surface.



-Original Message- From: Robert Andrews
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:56 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

When not buried in a historic snow load or positioned correctly so that
the snow falls off the panels and a 200 foot cliff...

On 8/16/23 12:46, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in mountain 
top location for a 20 watt load I would do the following that has 
never failed me:

Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.
2 weeks of battery autonomy.
20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts
Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.
$2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah latitude 
on top of Utah mountains.

*From:* Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal micropop 
can be done with less than 20 watts of load (single AP and backhaul). 
I can put together a solar setup for around $1000 that will power that.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM  wrote:

    I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric that’ll
    be cheaper than solar.  The problem is the need to run 24/7.  You
    have to design around the December-January months.  I’m in NY State,
    and at our latitude we only get a few hours of average production
    per day during those months.  And obviously if it’s snowing for a
    week you need to be able to ride through that on mostly battery
    power.  Even with a modest load it takes a silly amount of panels
    and batteries to stay up 24/7 in the winter.  More than you’d ever
    be allowed to put on a utility pole. 

    

    Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can get. 
Explain what you’re trying to do and that your max load is very low.

    

    NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an exception
    and let us do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service rated panel, a
    conduit up the pole and a weatherhead.  Then you either have an
    outdoor outlet, or have an outlet inside your enclosure. You’ll
    want the smallest service they’ll let you do because of the wire
    size on the service cable.  A 20A (if they’d allow it) would only
    need a 12/3 with ground, and that’s up to 4800 Watts (240x20) so
    it’s still more than you’d ever need.   A 12/3 is way cheaper than a
    100A service entrance cable.

    

    My figure is 8 years old, and obviously there’s been inflation since
    then, but I went to the same contractor who does electric installs
    for the cable company and they quoted me about $1000.  Even if it’s
    3x that for you today you’d still never beat that with a solar
    installation even if they’d let you do it.  And I’m not some
    knee-jerk anti-solar lunatic, I’m just saying I’ve run the numbers
    and it doesn’t add up.   People do it when they’re off grid, or when
    the electric service is unreliable in the area, or sometimes just
    for the PR/marketing power of being “solar powered”.  Those are all
    fine reasons, but doing it for cost savings isn’t going to work 
out.


    

    -Adam

    

    

    *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
    *Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:27 AM
    *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

    

    we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops (our
    own poles). We are losing a grain elevator site because they
    decommissioned the elevator and theres no real options for the
    customers in some of the areas. Im just trying to get to something
    we can get solar power with enough battery to last through overcast.
    So Im calculating per battery runtimes, then will look at number of
    batteries we would need to survive vs paying for a ROW meter vs
    losing the customers. Just have to get to the cost per customer to
    retain them and the benefit gained per pole

    

    

    On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 8:53 AM Brian Webster
     wrote:

    How many of the batteries do you have? Do you need any voltages
    other than the 48 volts? If you

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[dmmoffett]

I end up closer to Chuck’s estimate.  In Southern or Central NY State I’m 2 
degrees north of Salt Lake City.  42N

What’s your latitude?

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 4:11 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a site like 
that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the actual load is 
around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of battery. It had some 
issues in January a couple years, but I attributed that more to using cheap 
flooded deep cycles, rather than not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's gotten 
through the last couple of winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can be had for 
around $800, last I checked. Probably looking at closer to $1500 when you add 
in enclosures and mounts, but some of that is replacing parts that are needed 
with AC power anyway (smaller enclosure, backup batteries, power supply), so 
that offsets it a bit.

 

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 2:50 PM Chuck McCown via AF mailto:af@af.afmug.com> > wrote:

Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in mountain top 
location for a 20 watt load I would do the following that has never failed me:

 

Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.  

2 weeks of battery autonomy.  

20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts

Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.

 

$2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah latitude on top of 
Utah mountains.  

 

 

 

From: Mathew Howard 

Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal micropop can be 
done with less than 20 watts of load (single AP and backhaul). I can put 
together a solar setup for around $1000 that will power that.

 

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > wrote:

I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric that’ll be cheaper 
than solar.  The problem is the need to run 24/7.  You have to design around 
the December-January months.  I’m in NY State, and at our latitude we only get 
a few hours of average production per day during those months.  And obviously 
if it’s snowing for a week you need to be able to ride through that on mostly 
battery power.  Even with a modest load it takes a silly amount of panels and 
batteries to stay up 24/7 in the winter.  More than you’d ever be allowed to 
put on a utility pole. 

 

Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can get.  Explain what 
you’re trying to do and that your max load is very low.  

NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an exception and let us 
do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service rated panel, a conduit up the pole and 
a weatherhead.  Then you either have an outdoor outlet, or have an outlet 
inside your enclosure.  You’ll want the smallest service they’ll let you do 
because of the wire size on the service cable.  A 20A (if they’d allow it) 
would only need a 12/3 with ground, and that’s up to 4800 Watts (240x20) so 
it’s still more than you’d ever need.   A 12/3 is way cheaper than a 100A 
service entrance cable.

 

My figure is 8 years old, and obviously there’s been inflation since then, but 
I went to the same contractor who does electric installs for the cable company 
and they quoted me about $1000.  Even if it’s 3x that for you today you’d still 
never beat that with a solar installation even if they’d let you do it.  And 
I’m not some knee-jerk anti-solar lunatic, I’m just saying I’ve run the numbers 
and it doesn’t add up.   People do it when they’re off grid, or when the 
electric service is unreliable in the area, or sometimes just for the 
PR/marketing power of being “solar powered”.  Those are all fine reasons, but 
doing it for cost savings isn’t going to work out.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Steve Jones
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:27 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops (our own poles). 
We are losing a grain elevator site because they decommissioned the elevator 
and theres no real options for the customers in some of the areas. Im just 
trying to get to something we can get solar power with enough battery to last 
through overcast. So Im calculating per battery runtimes, then will look at 
number of batteries we would need to survive vs paying for a ROW meter vs 
losing the customers. Just have to get to the cost per customer to retain them 
and the benefit gained per pole

 

 

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 8:53 AM Brian Webster mailto:i...@wirelessmapping.com> > wrote:

How many of the batteries do you have? Do you need any voltages other tha

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Chuck McCown via AF]

We had a storm blow a set of panels over so they were pointed down.  They 
were 10 feet off the ground and we were getting significant power from the 
sunlight reflected off the snow.


If I was going to build another system that is super critical, and 
unaccessible in winter, I think I would mount a set of extra panels upside 
down over a white reflecting surface.



-Original Message- 
From: Robert Andrews

Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:56 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

When not buried in a historic snow load or positioned correctly so that
the snow falls off the panels and a 200 foot cliff...

On 8/16/23 12:46, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in mountain top 
location for a 20 watt load I would do the following that has never failed 
me:

Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.
2 weeks of battery autonomy.
20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts
Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.
$2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah latitude on top 
of Utah mountains.

*From:* Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal micropop can 
be done with less than 20 watts of load (single AP and backhaul). I can 
put together a solar setup for around $1000 that will power that.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM  wrote:

I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric that’ll
be cheaper than solar.  The problem is the need to run 24/7.  You
have to design around the December-January months.  I’m in NY State,
and at our latitude we only get a few hours of average production
per day during those months.  And obviously if it’s snowing for a
week you need to be able to ride through that on mostly battery
power.  Even with a modest load it takes a silly amount of panels
and batteries to stay up 24/7 in the winter.  More than you’d ever
be allowed to put on a utility pole. 



Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can get. 
Explain what you’re trying to do and that your max load is very low.



NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an exception
and let us do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service rated panel, a
conduit up the pole and a weatherhead.  Then you either have an
outdoor outlet, or have an outlet inside your enclosure.  You’ll
want the smallest service they’ll let you do because of the wire
size on the service cable.  A 20A (if they’d allow it) would only
need a 12/3 with ground, and that’s up to 4800 Watts (240x20) so
it’s still more than you’d ever need.   A 12/3 is way cheaper than a
100A service entrance cable.



My figure is 8 years old, and obviously there’s been inflation since
then, but I went to the same contractor who does electric installs
for the cable company and they quoted me about $1000.  Even if it’s
3x that for you today you’d still never beat that with a solar
installation even if they’d let you do it.  And I’m not some
knee-jerk anti-solar lunatic, I’m just saying I’ve run the numbers
and it doesn’t add up.   People do it when they’re off grid, or when
the electric service is unreliable in the area, or sometimes just
for the PR/marketing power of being “solar powered”.  Those are all
fine reasons, but doing it for cost savings isn’t going to work 
out.




-Adam





*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:27 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question



we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops (our
own poles). We are losing a grain elevator site because they
decommissioned the elevator and theres no real options for the
customers in some of the areas. Im just trying to get to something
we can get solar power with enough battery to last through overcast.
So Im calculating per battery runtimes, then will look at number of
batteries we would need to survive vs paying for a ROW meter vs
losing the customers. Just have to get to the cost per customer to
retain them and the benefit gained per pole





On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 8:53 AM Brian Webster
 wrote:

How many of the batteries do you have? Do you need any voltages
other than the 48 volts? If you have 4 batteries and only need
48 volts then wire them in series and not have to deal with the
converter.



Thank you,

Brian Webster





*From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of
*dmmoff

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Mathew Howard]

Yeah, that's what I'd do in a difficult to access location. I did a site
like that here (Wisconsin) with 200 watts of panel (I think the actual load
is around 15 watts, so a bit more than 10x), and ~4kwh of battery. It had
some issues in January a couple years, but I attributed that more to using
cheap flooded deep cycles, rather than not enough capacity. With AGMs, it's
gotten through the last couple of winters without issues. 4kwh of AGMs can
be had for around $800, last I checked. Probably looking at closer to $1500
when you add in enclosures and mounts, but some of that is replacing parts
that are needed with AC power anyway (smaller enclosure, backup batteries,
power supply), so that offsets it a bit.

On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 2:50 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in mountain top
> location for a 20 watt load I would do the following that has never failed
> me:
>
> Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.
> 2 weeks of battery autonomy.
> 20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts
> Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.
>
> $2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah latitude on top
> of Utah mountains.
>
>
>
> *From:* Mathew Howard
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
> It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal micropop can
> be done with less than 20 watts of load (single AP and backhaul). I can put
> together a solar setup for around $1000 that will power that.
>
> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM  wrote:
>
>> I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric that’ll be
>> cheaper than solar.  The problem is the need to run 24/7.  You have to
>> design around the December-January months.  I’m in NY State, and at our
>> latitude we only get a few hours of average production per day during those
>> months.  And obviously if it’s snowing for a week you need to be able to
>> ride through that on mostly battery power.  Even with a modest load it
>> takes a silly amount of panels and batteries to stay up 24/7 in the
>> winter.  More than you’d ever be allowed to put on a utility pole.
>>
>>
>>
>> Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can get.  Explain
>> what you’re trying to do and that your max load is very low.
>>
>> NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an exception and
>> let us do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service rated panel, a conduit up
>> the pole and a weatherhead.  Then you either have an outdoor outlet, or
>> have an outlet inside your enclosure.  You’ll want the smallest service
>> they’ll let you do because of the wire size on the service cable.  A 20A
>> (if they’d allow it) would only need a 12/3 with ground, and that’s up to
>> 4800 Watts (240x20) so it’s still more than you’d ever need.   A 12/3 is
>> way cheaper than a 100A service entrance cable.
>>
>>
>>
>> My figure is 8 years old, and obviously there’s been inflation since
>> then, but I went to the same contractor who does electric installs for the
>> cable company and they quoted me about $1000.  Even if it’s 3x that for you
>> today you’d still never beat that with a solar installation even if they’d
>> let you do it.  And I’m not some knee-jerk anti-solar lunatic, I’m just
>> saying I’ve run the numbers and it doesn’t add up.   People do it when
>> they’re off grid, or when the electric service is unreliable in the area,
>> or sometimes just for the PR/marketing power of being “solar powered”.
>> Those are all fine reasons, but doing it for cost savings isn’t going to
>> work out.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Adam
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:27 AM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>
>>
>>
>> we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops (our own
>> poles). We are losing a grain elevator site because they decommissioned the
>> elevator and theres no real options for the customers in some of the areas.
>> Im just trying to get to something we can get solar power with enough
>> battery to last through overcast. So Im calculating per battery runtimes,
>> then will look at number of batteries we would need to survive vs paying
>> for a ROW meter vs losing the customers. Just have to get to the cost per
>> customer to retain them and the benefit gained per pole
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
&g

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Robert Andrews]

When not buried in a historic snow load or positioned correctly so that 
the snow falls off the panels and a 200 foot cliff...


On 8/16/23 12:46, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in mountain top 
location for a 20 watt load I would do the following that has never 
failed me:

Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.
2 weeks of battery autonomy.
20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts
Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.
$2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah latitude on 
top of Utah mountains.

*From:* Mathew Howard
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal micropop 
can be done with less than 20 watts of load (single AP and backhaul). I 
can put together a solar setup for around $1000 that will power that.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM  wrote:

I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric that’ll
be cheaper than solar.  The problem is the need to run 24/7.  You
have to design around the December-January months.  I’m in NY State,
and at our latitude we only get a few hours of average production
per day during those months.  And obviously if it’s snowing for a
week you need to be able to ride through that on mostly battery
power.  Even with a modest load it takes a silly amount of panels
and batteries to stay up 24/7 in the winter.  More than you’d ever
be allowed to put on a utility pole. 



Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can get. 
Explain what you’re trying to do and that your max load is very low.



NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an exception
and let us do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service rated panel, a
conduit up the pole and a weatherhead.  Then you either have an
outdoor outlet, or have an outlet inside your enclosure.  You’ll
want the smallest service they’ll let you do because of the wire
size on the service cable.  A 20A (if they’d allow it) would only
need a 12/3 with ground, and that’s up to 4800 Watts (240x20) so
it’s still more than you’d ever need.   A 12/3 is way cheaper than a
100A service entrance cable.



My figure is 8 years old, and obviously there’s been inflation since
then, but I went to the same contractor who does electric installs
for the cable company and they quoted me about $1000.  Even if it’s
3x that for you today you’d still never beat that with a solar
installation even if they’d let you do it.  And I’m not some
knee-jerk anti-solar lunatic, I’m just saying I’ve run the numbers
and it doesn’t add up.   People do it when they’re off grid, or when
the electric service is unreliable in the area, or sometimes just
for the PR/marketing power of being “solar powered”.  Those are all
fine reasons, but doing it for cost savings isn’t going to work out.



-Adam





*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:27 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question



we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops (our
own poles). We are losing a grain elevator site because they
decommissioned the elevator and theres no real options for the
customers in some of the areas. Im just trying to get to something
we can get solar power with enough battery to last through overcast.
So Im calculating per battery runtimes, then will look at number of
batteries we would need to survive vs paying for a ROW meter vs
losing the customers. Just have to get to the cost per customer to
retain them and the benefit gained per pole





On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 8:53 AM Brian Webster
 wrote:

How many of the batteries do you have? Do you need any voltages
other than the 48 volts? If you have 4 batteries and only need
48 volts then wire them in series and not have to deal with the
converter.



Thank you,

Brian Webster





*From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of
*dmmoff...@gmail.com
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:59 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question



*You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end /of
capacity/. 

Lower load usually means a little extra capacity out of the
battery.  I realized that sentence might have been ambiguous.





*From:* dmmoff...@gmail.com 
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:56 AM

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Chuck McCown via AF]

Using my historical rules of thumb for off grid, snowed in mountain top 
location for a 20 watt load I would do the following that has never failed me:

Load X 20 so 400 watts of panel.  So less than $200 these days.  
2 weeks of battery autonomy.  
20 x 24 x 14= 6720 watt hours.  $2K of batts
Plus enclosures, mounts, charge controllers.

$2500 and it will never go down in the winter.  At my Utah latitude on top of 
Utah mountains.  



From: Mathew Howard 
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2023 1:07 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal micropop can be 
done with less than 20 watts of load (single AP and backhaul). I can put 
together a solar setup for around $1000 that will power that.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM  wrote:

  I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric that’ll be 
cheaper than solar.  The problem is the need to run 24/7.  You have to design 
around the December-January months.  I’m in NY State, and at our latitude we 
only get a few hours of average production per day during those months.  And 
obviously if it’s snowing for a week you need to be able to ride through that 
on mostly battery power.  Even with a modest load it takes a silly amount of 
panels and batteries to stay up 24/7 in the winter.  More than you’d ever be 
allowed to put on a utility pole. 



  Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can get.  Explain 
what you’re trying to do and that your max load is very low.  

  NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an exception and let 
us do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service rated panel, a conduit up the pole 
and a weatherhead.  Then you either have an outdoor outlet, or have an outlet 
inside your enclosure.  You’ll want the smallest service they’ll let you do 
because of the wire size on the service cable.  A 20A (if they’d allow it) 
would only need a 12/3 with ground, and that’s up to 4800 Watts (240x20) so 
it’s still more than you’d ever need.   A 12/3 is way cheaper than a 100A 
service entrance cable.



  My figure is 8 years old, and obviously there’s been inflation since then, 
but I went to the same contractor who does electric installs for the cable 
company and they quoted me about $1000.  Even if it’s 3x that for you today 
you’d still never beat that with a solar installation even if they’d let you do 
it.  And I’m not some knee-jerk anti-solar lunatic, I’m just saying I’ve run 
the numbers and it doesn’t add up.   People do it when they’re off grid, or 
when the electric service is unreliable in the area, or sometimes just for the 
PR/marketing power of being “solar powered”.  Those are all fine reasons, but 
doing it for cost savings isn’t going to work out.



  -Adam





  From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
  Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:27 AM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question



  we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops (our own 
poles). We are losing a grain elevator site because they decommissioned the 
elevator and theres no real options for the customers in some of the areas. Im 
just trying to get to something we can get solar power with enough battery to 
last through overcast. So Im calculating per battery runtimes, then will look 
at number of batteries we would need to survive vs paying for a ROW meter vs 
losing the customers. Just have to get to the cost per customer to retain them 
and the benefit gained per pole





  On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 8:53 AM Brian Webster  
wrote:

How many of the batteries do you have? Do you need any voltages other than 
the 48 volts? If you have 4 batteries and only need 48 volts then wire them in 
series and not have to deal with the converter.



Thank you,

Brian Webster





From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of dmmoff...@gmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:59 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question



*You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end of capacity.  

Lower load usually means a little extra capacity out of the battery.  I 
realized that sentence might have been ambiguous.





From: dmmoff...@gmail.com  
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:56 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: RE: [AFMUG] battery nerd question



You can do the whole thing in Watts.



12V * 150ah = 1800 Watt-hours

1800Wh / 50W = 36 hours



If they’re telling me 95% efficiency, I’d assume 50W out needs 53W in (50 / 
0.95).   

There’s usually an efficiency curve for the device based on load and 
temperature so it wouldn’t be 95% in all circumstances.  Your system should be 
drawing less than 5A off the battery, and if your multimeter has a 10A fuse 
like most do, then you could put the meter in line and actually measure the 
amperage

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Mathew Howard]

It depends on how much stuff you're trying to run. A minimal micropop can
be done with less than 20 watts of load (single AP and backhaul). I can put
together a solar setup for around $1000 that will power that.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 12:50 PM  wrote:

> I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric that’ll be
> cheaper than solar.  The problem is the need to run 24/7.  You have to
> design around the December-January months.  I’m in NY State, and at our
> latitude we only get a few hours of average production per day during those
> months.  And obviously if it’s snowing for a week you need to be able to
> ride through that on mostly battery power.  Even with a modest load it
> takes a silly amount of panels and batteries to stay up 24/7 in the
> winter.  More than you’d ever be allowed to put on a utility pole.
>
>
>
> Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can get.  Explain
> what you’re trying to do and that your max load is very low.
>
> NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an exception and
> let us do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service rated panel, a conduit up
> the pole and a weatherhead.  Then you either have an outdoor outlet, or
> have an outlet inside your enclosure.  You’ll want the smallest service
> they’ll let you do because of the wire size on the service cable.  A 20A
> (if they’d allow it) would only need a 12/3 with ground, and that’s up to
> 4800 Watts (240x20) so it’s still more than you’d ever need.   A 12/3 is
> way cheaper than a 100A service entrance cable.
>
>
>
> My figure is 8 years old, and obviously there’s been inflation since then,
> but I went to the same contractor who does electric installs for the cable
> company and they quoted me about $1000.  Even if it’s 3x that for you today
> you’d still never beat that with a solar installation even if they’d let
> you do it.  And I’m not some knee-jerk anti-solar lunatic, I’m just saying
> I’ve run the numbers and it doesn’t add up.   People do it when they’re off
> grid, or when the electric service is unreliable in the area, or sometimes
> just for the PR/marketing power of being “solar powered”.  Those are all
> fine reasons, but doing it for cost savings isn’t going to work out.
>
>
>
> -Adam
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:27 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops (our own
> poles). We are losing a grain elevator site because they decommissioned the
> elevator and theres no real options for the customers in some of the areas.
> Im just trying to get to something we can get solar power with enough
> battery to last through overcast. So Im calculating per battery runtimes,
> then will look at number of batteries we would need to survive vs paying
> for a ROW meter vs losing the customers. Just have to get to the cost per
> customer to retain them and the benefit gained per pole
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 8:53 AM Brian Webster 
> wrote:
>
> How many of the batteries do you have? Do you need any voltages other than
> the 48 volts? If you have 4 batteries and only need 48 volts then wire them
> in series and not have to deal with the converter.
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Brian Webster
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *
> dmmoff...@gmail.com
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:59 AM
> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> *You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end *of capacity*.
>
> Lower load usually means a little extra capacity out of the battery.  I
> realized that sentence might have been ambiguous.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* dmmoff...@gmail.com 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:56 AM
> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
> *Subject:* RE: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> You can do the whole thing in Watts.
>
>
>
> 12V * 150ah = 1800 Watt-hours
>
> 1800Wh / 50W = 36 hours
>
>
>
> If they’re telling me 95% efficiency, I’d assume 50W out needs 53W in (50
> / 0.95).
>
> There’s usually an efficiency curve for the device based on load and
> temperature so it wouldn’t be 95% in all circumstances.  Your system should
> be drawing less than 5A off the battery, and if your multimeter has a 10A
> fuse like most do, then you could put the meter in line and actually
> measure the amperage before and after the converter.  Then you’d know for
> sure.
>
>
>
> And the battery’s total capacity will have a curve bas

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[dmmoffett]

Definitely worth asking about.
They have done unmetered service here in the past for CATV amps, but I think 
NYSEG told us they aren't doing any new ones.

-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Chris Fabien
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:52 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

The term that got us cheap power was "unmetered CATV power supply".
They allow connection of a fixed capacity power supply unit with no meter, just 
a small disconnect and drop a 120V 10AWG service and bill us based on half of 
the power supply's nameplate capacity.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 3:45 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:
>
> Some places have what is called a “street light tariff” that is about as low 
> as you can get.
>
>
>
> From: dmmoff...@gmail.com
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:38 AM
> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
> I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric that’ll be 
> cheaper than solar.  The problem is the need to run 24/7.  You have to design 
> around the December-January months.  I’m in NY State, and at our latitude we 
> only get a few hours of average production per day during those months.  And 
> obviously if it’s snowing for a week you need to be able to ride through that 
> on mostly battery power.  Even with a modest load it takes a silly amount of 
> panels and batteries to stay up 24/7 in the winter.  More than you’d ever be 
> allowed to put on a utility pole.
>
>
>
> Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can get.  Explain 
> what you’re trying to do and that your max load is very low.
>
> NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an exception and let 
> us do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service rated panel, a conduit up the 
> pole and a weatherhead.  Then you either have an outdoor outlet, or have an 
> outlet inside your enclosure.  You’ll want the smallest service they’ll let 
> you do because of the wire size on the service cable.  A 20A (if they’d allow 
> it) would only need a 12/3 with ground, and that’s up to 4800 Watts (240x20) 
> so it’s still more than you’d ever need.   A 12/3 is way cheaper than a 100A 
> service entrance cable.
>
>
>
> My figure is 8 years old, and obviously there’s been inflation since then, 
> but I went to the same contractor who does electric installs for the cable 
> company and they quoted me about $1000.  Even if it’s 3x that for you today 
> you’d still never beat that with a solar installation even if they’d let you 
> do it.  And I’m not some knee-jerk anti-solar lunatic, I’m just saying I’ve 
> run the numbers and it doesn’t add up.   People do it when they’re off grid, 
> or when the electric service is unreliable in the area, or sometimes just for 
> the PR/marketing power of being “solar powered”.  Those are all fine reasons, 
> but doing it for cost savings isn’t going to work out.
>
>
>
> -Adam
>
>
>
>
>
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:27 AM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops (our 
> own poles). We are losing a grain elevator site because they 
> decommissioned the elevator and theres no real options for the 
> customers in some of the areas. Im just trying to get to something we 
> can get solar power with enough battery to last through overcast. So 
> Im calculating per battery runtimes, then will look at number of 
> batteries we would need to survive vs paying for a ROW meter vs losing 
> the customers. Just have to get to the cost per customer to retain 
> them and the benefit gained per pole
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 8:53 AM Brian Webster  
> wrote:
>
> How many of the batteries do you have? Do you need any voltages other than 
> the 48 volts? If you have 4 batteries and only need 48 volts then wire them 
> in series and not have to deal with the converter.
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Brian Webster
>
>
>
>
>
> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of 
> dmmoff...@gmail.com
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:59 AM
> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> *You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end of capacity.
>
> Lower load usually means a little extra capacity out of the battery.  I 
> realized that sentence might have been ambiguous.
>
>
>
>
>
> From: dmmoff...@gmail.com 
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:56 AM
> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
> Subject: RE: [AFMUG] battery nerd

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Chris Fabien]

The term that got us cheap power was "unmetered CATV power supply".
They allow connection of a fixed capacity power supply unit with no
meter, just a small disconnect and drop a 120V 10AWG service and bill
us based on half of the power supply's nameplate capacity.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 3:45 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:
>
> Some places have what is called a “street light tariff” that is about as low 
> as you can get.
>
>
>
> From: dmmoff...@gmail.com
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:38 AM
> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
> I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric that’ll be 
> cheaper than solar.  The problem is the need to run 24/7.  You have to design 
> around the December-January months.  I’m in NY State, and at our latitude we 
> only get a few hours of average production per day during those months.  And 
> obviously if it’s snowing for a week you need to be able to ride through that 
> on mostly battery power.  Even with a modest load it takes a silly amount of 
> panels and batteries to stay up 24/7 in the winter.  More than you’d ever be 
> allowed to put on a utility pole.
>
>
>
> Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can get.  Explain 
> what you’re trying to do and that your max load is very low.
>
> NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an exception and let 
> us do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service rated panel, a conduit up the 
> pole and a weatherhead.  Then you either have an outdoor outlet, or have an 
> outlet inside your enclosure.  You’ll want the smallest service they’ll let 
> you do because of the wire size on the service cable.  A 20A (if they’d allow 
> it) would only need a 12/3 with ground, and that’s up to 4800 Watts (240x20) 
> so it’s still more than you’d ever need.   A 12/3 is way cheaper than a 100A 
> service entrance cable.
>
>
>
> My figure is 8 years old, and obviously there’s been inflation since then, 
> but I went to the same contractor who does electric installs for the cable 
> company and they quoted me about $1000.  Even if it’s 3x that for you today 
> you’d still never beat that with a solar installation even if they’d let you 
> do it.  And I’m not some knee-jerk anti-solar lunatic, I’m just saying I’ve 
> run the numbers and it doesn’t add up.   People do it when they’re off grid, 
> or when the electric service is unreliable in the area, or sometimes just for 
> the PR/marketing power of being “solar powered”.  Those are all fine reasons, 
> but doing it for cost savings isn’t going to work out.
>
>
>
> -Adam
>
>
>
>
>
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:27 AM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops (our own 
> poles). We are losing a grain elevator site because they decommissioned the 
> elevator and theres no real options for the customers in some of the areas. 
> Im just trying to get to something we can get solar power with enough battery 
> to last through overcast. So Im calculating per battery runtimes, then will 
> look at number of batteries we would need to survive vs paying for a ROW 
> meter vs losing the customers. Just have to get to the cost per customer to 
> retain them and the benefit gained per pole
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 8:53 AM Brian Webster  
> wrote:
>
> How many of the batteries do you have? Do you need any voltages other than 
> the 48 volts? If you have 4 batteries and only need 48 volts then wire them 
> in series and not have to deal with the converter.
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Brian Webster
>
>
>
>
>
> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of dmmoff...@gmail.com
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:59 AM
> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> *You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end of capacity.
>
> Lower load usually means a little extra capacity out of the battery.  I 
> realized that sentence might have been ambiguous.
>
>
>
>
>
> From: dmmoff...@gmail.com 
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:56 AM
> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
> Subject: RE: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> You can do the whole thing in Watts.
>
>
>
> 12V * 150ah = 1800 Watt-hours
>
> 1800Wh / 50W = 36 hours
>
>
>
> If they’re telling me 95% efficiency, I’d assume 50W out needs 53W in (50 / 
> 0.95).
>
> There’s usually an efficiency curve for the device based on load and 
> temperature s

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Robert]

I read about one of those that is already pre-packaged in a lead 
coffin.  It does have a bad history with 3 kills and about 1/2 dozen 
sickened...   You have to provide the deuce and 1/2 with the shielded 
drivers compartment.


On 8/15/23 4:52 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
I got some old Russian thermo electric generators that are self 
heating.  They are pretty good for things like this.  You will have to 
pick them up though, Sakhalin Island.

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com
*From:* Dennis Burgess
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 2:36 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

You can use 9dot and do your power control, dc in on solar panels 48 
volt system..    Just another option, lots of reporting and metering 
there..


*LTI-Full_175px*

*Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium ePMP 
Certified *


Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”

*Link Technologies, Inc*-- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services

*Office*: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net 
<http://www.linktechs.net/>


Need to Automate MikroTik Backups: https://cloud.linktechs.net 
<https://cloud.linktechs.net>


Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com 



*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Josh Luthman
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 11:36 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

OMG get meters.  The panels and batteries will cost more up front and 
they won't last as long.  Solar sucks here in Ohio, it's only going to 
be worse where you're at.


On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 11:54 AM Steve Jones  wrote:

we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops
(our own poles). We are losing a grain elevator site because they
decommissioned the elevator and theres no real options for the
customers in some of the areas. Im just trying to get to something
we can get solar power with enough battery to last through
overcast. So Im calculating per battery runtimes, then will look
at number of batteries we would need to survive vs paying for a
ROW meter vs losing the customers. Just have to get to the cost
per customer to retain them and the benefit gained per pole

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 8:53 AM Brian Webster
 wrote:

How many of the batteries do you have? Do you need any
voltages other than the 48 volts? If you have 4 batteries and
only need 48 volts then wire them in series and not have to
deal with the converter.

Thank you,

Brian Webster

*From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of
*dmmoff...@gmail.com
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:59 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

*You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end /of
capacity/.

Lower load usually means a little extra capacity out of the
battery.  I realized that sentence might have been ambiguous.

*From:* dmmoff...@gmail.com 
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:56 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
    *Subject:* RE: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

You can do the whole thing in Watts.

12V * 150ah = 1800 Watt-hours

1800Wh / 50W = 36 hours

If they’re telling me 95% efficiency, I’d assume 50W out needs
53W in (50 / 0.95).

There’s usually an efficiency curve for the device based on
load and temperature so it wouldn’t be 95% in all
circumstances. Your system should be drawing less than 5A off
the battery, and if your multimeter has a 10A fuse like most
do, then you could put the meter in line and actually measure
the amperage before and after the converter.  Then you’d know
for sure.

And the battery’s total capacity will have a curve based on
C-rate so there’s some variability there too.  Usually it
lasts longer when you’re drawing lower amperage.  You’re
around C/30 which should be on the high end.

Age and maintenance of the battery affect runtime as well.  If
I want 6 hours of runtime then I plan Ah for 12 hours runtime.
When my batteries are halfway toasted I’m still getting useful
life out of them.

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
*Sent:* Monday, August 14, 2023 9:57 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
    *Subject:* [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Just trying to cipher runtimes

I have on hand 150ah 12 volt batteries, so thats what id be
looking to use.

Excluding the conversion loss of a 12v to 48v step

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Chuck McCown via AF]

I got some old Russian thermo electric generators that are self heating.  They 
are pretty good for things like this.  You will have to pick them up though, 
Sakhalin Island.  

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation 
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com

From: Dennis Burgess 
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 2:36 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

You can use 9dot and do your power control, dc in on solar panels 48 volt 
system..Just another option, lots of reporting and metering there..

 

 



Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium ePMP 
Certified 

Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition” 

Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services 

Office: 314-735-0270  Website: http://www.linktechs.net 

Need to Automate MikroTik Backups:  https://cloud.linktechs.net 

Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 11:36 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

OMG get meters.  The panels and batteries will cost more up front and they 
won't last as long.  Solar sucks here in Ohio, it's only going to be worse 
where you're at.

 

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 11:54 AM Steve Jones  wrote:

  we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops (our own 
poles). We are losing a grain elevator site because they decommissioned the 
elevator and theres no real options for the customers in some of the areas. Im 
just trying to get to something we can get solar power with enough battery to 
last through overcast. So Im calculating per battery runtimes, then will look 
at number of batteries we would need to survive vs paying for a ROW meter vs 
losing the customers. Just have to get to the cost per customer to retain them 
and the benefit gained per pole

   

   

  On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 8:53 AM Brian Webster  
wrote:

How many of the batteries do you have? Do you need any voltages other than 
the 48 volts? If you have 4 batteries and only need 48 volts then wire them in 
series and not have to deal with the converter.

 

Thank you,

Brian Webster

 

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of dmmoff...@gmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:59 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

*You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end of capacity.  

Lower load usually means a little extra capacity out of the battery.  I 
realized that sentence might have been ambiguous.

 

 

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com  
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:56 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: RE: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

You can do the whole thing in Watts.

 

12V * 150ah = 1800 Watt-hours

1800Wh / 50W = 36 hours

 

If they’re telling me 95% efficiency, I’d assume 50W out needs 53W in (50 / 
0.95).   

There’s usually an efficiency curve for the device based on load and 
temperature so it wouldn’t be 95% in all circumstances.  Your system should be 
drawing less than 5A off the battery, and if your multimeter has a 10A fuse 
like most do, then you could put the meter in line and actually measure the 
amperage before and after the converter.  Then you’d know for sure.

 

And the battery’s total capacity will have a curve based on C-rate so 
there’s some variability there too.  Usually it lasts longer when you’re 
drawing lower amperage.  You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end.  

 

Age and maintenance of the battery affect runtime as well.  If I want 6 
hours of runtime then I plan Ah for 12 hours runtime. When my batteries are 
halfway toasted I’m still getting useful life out of them.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 9:57 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

Just trying to cipher runtimes

I have on hand 150ah 12 volt batteries, so thats what id be looking to use.

Excluding the conversion loss of a 12v to 48v step up converter is the math 
correct here?

12v 150ah=1800 watt hours
1800 watt hours at 48v = 37.5ah
50 watts of radio running 48v = 1.04 amps
37.5ah @ 1.04 amps = 32.77 hours runtime

 

does a step up that claims 95% efficiency mean 95% of the watt hours?

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

  -- 
  AF mailing list
  AF@af.afmug.com
  http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com




-- 
A

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Dennis Burgess]

You can use 9dot and do your power control, dc in on solar panels 48 volt 
system..Just another option, lots of reporting and metering there..


[LTI-Full_175px]
Dennis Burgess, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCWE, MTCTCE, MTCINE, MTCSE, HE IPv6 Sage, Cambium ePMP Certified
Author of "Learn RouterOS- Second Edition”
Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services
Office: 314-735-0270  Website: 
http://www.linktechs.net<http://www.linktechs.net/>
Need to Automate MikroTik Backups:  https://cloud.linktechs.net
Create Wireless Coverage’s with www.towercoverage.com

From: AF  On Behalf Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 11:36 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

OMG get meters.  The panels and batteries will cost more up front and they 
won't last as long.  Solar sucks here in Ohio, it's only going to be worse 
where you're at.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 11:54 AM Steve Jones 
mailto:st...@togservice.com>> wrote:
we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops (our own poles). 
We are losing a grain elevator site because they decommissioned the elevator 
and theres no real options for the customers in some of the areas. Im just 
trying to get to something we can get solar power with enough battery to last 
through overcast. So Im calculating per battery runtimes, then will look at 
number of batteries we would need to survive vs paying for a ROW meter vs 
losing the customers. Just have to get to the cost per customer to retain them 
and the benefit gained per pole


On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 8:53 AM Brian Webster 
mailto:i...@wirelessmapping.com>> wrote:
How many of the batteries do you have? Do you need any voltages other than the 
48 volts? If you have 4 batteries and only need 48 volts then wire them in 
series and not have to deal with the converter.

Thank you,
Brian Webster


From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com<mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>] On 
Behalf Of dmmoff...@gmail.com<mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:59 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

*You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end of capacity.
Lower load usually means a little extra capacity out of the battery.  I 
realized that sentence might have been ambiguous.


From: dmmoff...@gmail.com<mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> 
mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:56 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: RE: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

You can do the whole thing in Watts.

12V * 150ah = 1800 Watt-hours
1800Wh / 50W = 36 hours

If they’re telling me 95% efficiency, I’d assume 50W out needs 53W in (50 / 
0.95).
There’s usually an efficiency curve for the device based on load and 
temperature so it wouldn’t be 95% in all circumstances.  Your system should be 
drawing less than 5A off the battery, and if your multimeter has a 10A fuse 
like most do, then you could put the meter in line and actually measure the 
amperage before and after the converter.  Then you’d know for sure.

And the battery’s total capacity will have a curve based on C-rate so there’s 
some variability there too.  Usually it lasts longer when you’re drawing lower 
amperage.  You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end.

Age and maintenance of the battery affect runtime as well.  If I want 6 hours 
of runtime then I plan Ah for 12 hours runtime. When my batteries are halfway 
toasted I’m still getting useful life out of them.


From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Steve Jones
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 9:57 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

Just trying to cipher runtimes
I have on hand 150ah 12 volt batteries, so thats what id be looking to use.
Excluding the conversion loss of a 12v to 48v step up converter is the math 
correct here?
12v 150ah=1800 watt hours
1800 watt hours at 48v = 37.5ah
50 watts of radio running 48v = 1.04 amps
37.5ah @ 1.04 amps = 32.77 hours runtime

does a step up that claims 95% efficiency mean 95% of the watt hours?
--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com<mailto:AF@af.afmug.com>
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Bill Prince]

Electric "can" be more cost effective unless you have to run wires a 
half kilometer or more. Our first remote POP was not quite a 1/4 mile 
from the nearest electric source, so we had to trench that distance, run 
conduit, and run relatively large gauge wires that distance. At that 
time, the cost of the copper alone exceeded the cost of doing it in 
solar. Today, the cost of the solar is a fraction of what it was then, 
and LFP batteries are now cost-competitive with SLA batteries.


That all said, we are at a convenient latitude (37°), and we have a 
pretty moderate climate, so heating and cooling are not a consideration, 
and we get at least 6 hours of sun on the shortest day of the year.


bp


On 8/15/2023 9:38 AM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:


I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric that’ll 
be cheaper than solar.  The problem is the need to run 24/7.  You have 
to design around the December-January months.  I’m in NY State, and at 
our latitude we only get a few hours of average production per day 
during those months.  And obviously if it’s snowing for a week you 
need to be able to ride through that on mostly battery power.  Even 
with a modest load it takes a silly amount of panels and batteries to 
stay up 24/7 in the winter.  More than you’d ever be allowed to put on 
a utility pole.


Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can get.  
Explain what you’re trying to do and that your max load is very low.


NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an exception 
and let us do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service rated panel, a 
conduit up the pole and a weatherhead.  Then you either have an 
outdoor outlet, or have an outlet inside your enclosure.  You’ll want 
the smallest service they’ll let you do because of the wire size on 
the service cable.  A 20A (if they’d allow it) would only need a 12/3 
with ground, and that’s up to 4800 Watts (240x20) so it’s still more 
than you’d ever need.   A 12/3 is way cheaper than a 100A service 
entrance cable.


My figure is 8 years old, and obviously there’s been inflation since 
then, but I went to the same contractor who does electric installs for 
the cable company and they quoted me about $1000.  Even if it’s 3x 
that for you today you’d still never beat that with a solar 
installation even if they’d let you do it.  And I’m not some knee-jerk 
anti-solar lunatic, I’m just saying I’ve run the numbers and it 
doesn’t add up.   People do it when they’re off grid, or when the 
electric service is unreliable in the area, or sometimes just for the 
PR/marketing power of being “solar powered”.  Those are all fine 
reasons, but doing it for cost savings isn’t going to work out.


-Adam

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:27 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops (our 
own poles). We are losing a grain elevator site because they 
decommissioned the elevator and theres no real options for the 
customers in some of the areas. Im just trying to get to something we 
can get solar power with enough battery to last through overcast. So 
Im calculating per battery runtimes, then will look at number of 
batteries we would need to survive vs paying for a ROW meter vs losing 
the customers. Just have to get to the cost per customer to retain 
them and the benefit gained per pole


On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 8:53 AM Brian Webster 
 wrote:


How many of the batteries do you have? Do you need any voltages
other than the 48 volts? If you have 4 batteries and only need 48
volts then wire them in series and not have to deal with the
converter.

Thank you,

Brian Webster

*From:*AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of
*dmmoff...@gmail.com
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:59 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

*You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end /of capacity/.

Lower load usually means a little extra capacity out of the
battery.  I realized that sentence might have been ambiguous.

*From:* dmmoff...@gmail.com 
*Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:56 AM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
*Subject:* RE: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

You can do the whole thing in Watts.

12V * 150ah = 1800 Watt-hours

1800Wh / 50W = 36 hours

If they’re telling me 95% efficiency, I’d assume 50W out needs 53W
in (50 / 0.95).

There’s usually an efficiency curve for the device based on load
and temperature so it wouldn’t be 95% in all circumstances.  Your
system should be drawing less than 5A off the battery, and if your
multimeter has a 10A fuse like most do, then you could put the
meter in line and actually measure the amperage before and after
the converter.  Then you’d kno

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Chuck McCown via AF]

Some places have what is called a “street light tariff” that is about as low as 
you can get.  



From: dmmoff...@gmail.com 
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:38 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric that’ll be cheaper 
than solar.  The problem is the need to run 24/7.  You have to design around 
the December-January months.  I’m in NY State, and at our latitude we only get 
a few hours of average production per day during those months.  And obviously 
if it’s snowing for a week you need to be able to ride through that on mostly 
battery power.  Even with a modest load it takes a silly amount of panels and 
batteries to stay up 24/7 in the winter.  More than you’d ever be allowed to 
put on a utility pole. 

 

Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can get.  Explain what 
you’re trying to do and that your max load is very low.  

NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an exception and let us 
do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service rated panel, a conduit up the pole and 
a weatherhead.  Then you either have an outdoor outlet, or have an outlet 
inside your enclosure.  You’ll want the smallest service they’ll let you do 
because of the wire size on the service cable.  A 20A (if they’d allow it) 
would only need a 12/3 with ground, and that’s up to 4800 Watts (240x20) so 
it’s still more than you’d ever need.   A 12/3 is way cheaper than a 100A 
service entrance cable.

 

My figure is 8 years old, and obviously there’s been inflation since then, but 
I went to the same contractor who does electric installs for the cable company 
and they quoted me about $1000.  Even if it’s 3x that for you today you’d still 
never beat that with a solar installation even if they’d let you do it.  And 
I’m not some knee-jerk anti-solar lunatic, I’m just saying I’ve run the numbers 
and it doesn’t add up.   People do it when they’re off grid, or when the 
electric service is unreliable in the area, or sometimes just for the 
PR/marketing power of being “solar powered”.  Those are all fine reasons, but 
doing it for cost savings isn’t going to work out.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:27 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops (our own poles). 
We are losing a grain elevator site because they decommissioned the elevator 
and theres no real options for the customers in some of the areas. Im just 
trying to get to something we can get solar power with enough battery to last 
through overcast. So Im calculating per battery runtimes, then will look at 
number of batteries we would need to survive vs paying for a ROW meter vs 
losing the customers. Just have to get to the cost per customer to retain them 
and the benefit gained per pole

 

 

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 8:53 AM Brian Webster  wrote:

  How many of the batteries do you have? Do you need any voltages other than 
the 48 volts? If you have 4 batteries and only need 48 volts then wire them in 
series and not have to deal with the converter.

   

  Thank you,

  Brian Webster

   

   

  From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of dmmoff...@gmail.com
  Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:59 AM
  To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

   

  *You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end of capacity.  

  Lower load usually means a little extra capacity out of the battery.  I 
realized that sentence might have been ambiguous.

   

   

  From: dmmoff...@gmail.com  
  Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:56 AM
  To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
  Subject: RE: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

   

  You can do the whole thing in Watts.

   

  12V * 150ah = 1800 Watt-hours

  1800Wh / 50W = 36 hours

   

  If they’re telling me 95% efficiency, I’d assume 50W out needs 53W in (50 / 
0.95).   

  There’s usually an efficiency curve for the device based on load and 
temperature so it wouldn’t be 95% in all circumstances.  Your system should be 
drawing less than 5A off the battery, and if your multimeter has a 10A fuse 
like most do, then you could put the meter in line and actually measure the 
amperage before and after the converter.  Then you’d know for sure.

   

  And the battery’s total capacity will have a curve based on C-rate so there’s 
some variability there too.  Usually it lasts longer when you’re drawing lower 
amperage.  You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end.  

   

  Age and maintenance of the battery affect runtime as well.  If I want 6 hours 
of runtime then I plan Ah for 12 hours runtime. When my batteries are halfway 
toasted I’m still getting useful life out of them.

   

   

  From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
  Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 9:57 PM
  To: AnimalFarm

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[dmmoffett]

I can save you the suspense.  If you have access to electric that’ll be cheaper 
than solar.  The problem is the need to run 24/7.  You have to design around 
the December-January months.  I’m in NY State, and at our latitude we only get 
a few hours of average production per day during those months.  And obviously 
if it’s snowing for a week you need to be able to ride through that on mostly 
battery power.  Even with a modest load it takes a silly amount of panels and 
batteries to stay up 24/7 in the winter.  More than you’d ever be allowed to 
put on a utility pole. 

 

Talk to your electric co about the smallest service you can get.  Explain what 
you’re trying to do and that your max load is very low.  

NYSEG normally doesn’t do less than 100A, but they made an exception and let us 
do 60A.  You need a meter can, a service rated panel, a conduit up the pole and 
a weatherhead.  Then you either have an outdoor outlet, or have an outlet 
inside your enclosure.  You’ll want the smallest service they’ll let you do 
because of the wire size on the service cable.  A 20A (if they’d allow it) 
would only need a 12/3 with ground, and that’s up to 4800 Watts (240x20) so 
it’s still more than you’d ever need.   A 12/3 is way cheaper than a 100A 
service entrance cable.

 

My figure is 8 years old, and obviously there’s been inflation since then, but 
I went to the same contractor who does electric installs for the cable company 
and they quoted me about $1000.  Even if it’s 3x that for you today you’d still 
never beat that with a solar installation even if they’d let you do it.  And 
I’m not some knee-jerk anti-solar lunatic, I’m just saying I’ve run the numbers 
and it doesn’t add up.   People do it when they’re off grid, or when the 
electric service is unreliable in the area, or sometimes just for the 
PR/marketing power of being “solar powered”.  Those are all fine reasons, but 
doing it for cost savings isn’t going to work out.

 

-Adam

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 10:27 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops (our own poles). 
We are losing a grain elevator site because they decommissioned the elevator 
and theres no real options for the customers in some of the areas. Im just 
trying to get to something we can get solar power with enough battery to last 
through overcast. So Im calculating per battery runtimes, then will look at 
number of batteries we would need to survive vs paying for a ROW meter vs 
losing the customers. Just have to get to the cost per customer to retain them 
and the benefit gained per pole

 

 

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 8:53 AM Brian Webster mailto:i...@wirelessmapping.com> > wrote:

How many of the batteries do you have? Do you need any voltages other than the 
48 volts? If you have 4 batteries and only need 48 volts then wire them in 
series and not have to deal with the converter.

 

Thank you,

Brian Webster

 

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com <mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> ] On 
Behalf Of dmmoff...@gmail.com <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:59 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

*You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end of capacity.  

Lower load usually means a little extra capacity out of the battery.  I 
realized that sentence might have been ambiguous.

 

 

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com>  mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> > 
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:56 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: RE: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

You can do the whole thing in Watts.

 

12V * 150ah = 1800 Watt-hours

1800Wh / 50W = 36 hours

 

If they’re telling me 95% efficiency, I’d assume 50W out needs 53W in (50 / 
0.95).   

There’s usually an efficiency curve for the device based on load and 
temperature so it wouldn’t be 95% in all circumstances.  Your system should be 
drawing less than 5A off the battery, and if your multimeter has a 10A fuse 
like most do, then you could put the meter in line and actually measure the 
amperage before and after the converter.  Then you’d know for sure.

 

And the battery’s total capacity will have a curve based on C-rate so there’s 
some variability there too.  Usually it lasts longer when you’re drawing lower 
amperage.  You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end.  

 

Age and maintenance of the battery affect runtime as well.  If I want 6 hours 
of runtime then I plan Ah for 12 hours runtime. When my batteries are halfway 
toasted I’m still getting useful life out of them.

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Steve Jones
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 9:57 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subjec

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Josh Luthman]

OMG get meters.  The panels and batteries will cost more up front and they
won't last as long.  Solar sucks here in Ohio, it's only going to be worse
where you're at.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 11:54 AM Steve Jones  wrote:

> we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops (our own
> poles). We are losing a grain elevator site because they decommissioned the
> elevator and theres no real options for the customers in some of the areas.
> Im just trying to get to something we can get solar power with enough
> battery to last through overcast. So Im calculating per battery runtimes,
> then will look at number of batteries we would need to survive vs paying
> for a ROW meter vs losing the customers. Just have to get to the cost per
> customer to retain them and the benefit gained per pole
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 8:53 AM Brian Webster 
> wrote:
>
>> How many of the batteries do you have? Do you need any voltages other
>> than the 48 volts? If you have 4 batteries and only need 48 volts then wire
>> them in series and not have to deal with the converter.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Brian Webster
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *
>> dmmoff...@gmail.com
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:59 AM
>> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>
>>
>>
>> *You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end *of capacity*.
>>
>> Lower load usually means a little extra capacity out of the battery.  I
>> realized that sentence might have been ambiguous.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* dmmoff...@gmail.com 
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:56 AM
>> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
>> *Subject:* RE: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>
>>
>>
>> You can do the whole thing in Watts.
>>
>>
>>
>> 12V * 150ah = 1800 Watt-hours
>>
>> 1800Wh / 50W = 36 hours
>>
>>
>>
>> If they’re telling me 95% efficiency, I’d assume 50W out needs 53W in (50
>> / 0.95).
>>
>> There’s usually an efficiency curve for the device based on load and
>> temperature so it wouldn’t be 95% in all circumstances.  Your system should
>> be drawing less than 5A off the battery, and if your multimeter has a 10A
>> fuse like most do, then you could put the meter in line and actually
>> measure the amperage before and after the converter.  Then you’d know for
>> sure.
>>
>>
>>
>> And the battery’s total capacity will have a curve based on C-rate so
>> there’s some variability there too.  Usually it lasts longer when you’re
>> drawing lower amperage.  You’re around C/30 which should be on the high
>> end.
>>
>>
>>
>> Age and maintenance of the battery affect runtime as well.  If I want 6
>> hours of runtime then I plan Ah for 12 hours runtime. When my batteries are
>> halfway toasted I’m still getting useful life out of them.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
>> *Sent:* Monday, August 14, 2023 9:57 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>>
>>
>>
>> Just trying to cipher runtimes
>>
>> I have on hand 150ah 12 volt batteries, so thats what id be looking to
>> use.
>>
>> Excluding the conversion loss of a 12v to 48v step up converter is the
>> math correct here?
>>
>> 12v 150ah=1800 watt hours
>> 1800 watt hours at 48v = 37.5ah
>> 50 watts of radio running 48v = 1.04 amps
>> 37.5ah @ 1.04 amps = 32.77 hours runtime
>>
>>
>>
>> does a step up that claims 95% efficiency mean 95% of the watt hours?
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Chuck McCown via AF]

For critical telecom I always used 20x the load power for panels and 2 weeks of 
battery autonomy for bad weather.
If you can access the site in bad weather to clear off snow or give it an aux 
charge you can go less.

I would still recommend 10 x on the panel size and at least 4 days of battery.  



From: Steve Jones 
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 8:26 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops (our own poles). 
We are losing a grain elevator site because they decommissioned the elevator 
and theres no real options for the customers in some of the areas. Im just 
trying to get to something we can get solar power with enough battery to last 
through overcast. So Im calculating per battery runtimes, then will look at 
number of batteries we would need to survive vs paying for a ROW meter vs 
losing the customers. Just have to get to the cost per customer to retain them 
and the benefit gained per pole 


On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 8:53 AM Brian Webster  wrote:

  How many of the batteries do you have? Do you need any voltages other than 
the 48 volts? If you have 4 batteries and only need 48 volts then wire them in 
series and not have to deal with the converter.



  Thank you,

  Brian Webster





  From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of dmmoff...@gmail.com
  Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:59 AM
  To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question



  *You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end of capacity.  

  Lower load usually means a little extra capacity out of the battery.  I 
realized that sentence might have been ambiguous.





  From: dmmoff...@gmail.com  
  Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:56 AM
  To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
  Subject: RE: [AFMUG] battery nerd question



  You can do the whole thing in Watts.



  12V * 150ah = 1800 Watt-hours

  1800Wh / 50W = 36 hours



  If they’re telling me 95% efficiency, I’d assume 50W out needs 53W in (50 / 
0.95).   

  There’s usually an efficiency curve for the device based on load and 
temperature so it wouldn’t be 95% in all circumstances.  Your system should be 
drawing less than 5A off the battery, and if your multimeter has a 10A fuse 
like most do, then you could put the meter in line and actually measure the 
amperage before and after the converter.  Then you’d know for sure.



  And the battery’s total capacity will have a curve based on C-rate so there’s 
some variability there too.  Usually it lasts longer when you’re drawing lower 
amperage.  You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end.  



  Age and maintenance of the battery affect runtime as well.  If I want 6 hours 
of runtime then I plan Ah for 12 hours runtime. When my batteries are halfway 
toasted I’m still getting useful life out of them.





  From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
  Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 9:57 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: [AFMUG] battery nerd question



  Just trying to cipher runtimes

  I have on hand 150ah 12 volt batteries, so thats what id be looking to use.

  Excluding the conversion loss of a 12v to 48v step up converter is the math 
correct here?

  12v 150ah=1800 watt hours
  1800 watt hours at 48v = 37.5ah
  50 watts of radio running 48v = 1.04 amps
  37.5ah @ 1.04 amps = 32.77 hours runtime



  does a step up that claims 95% efficiency mean 95% of the watt hours?

  -- 
  AF mailing list
  AF@af.afmug.com
  http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com




-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Chuck McCown via AF]

Steve, 

Ah ratings are only good for one specific amp discharge.  More current = lower 
Ah.  Less current = higher Ah.  The full specs of a batter should give you a 
table or curves showing the different Ah capacity for different draws.  



From: dmmoff...@gmail.com 
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 4:59 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

*You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end of capacity.  

Lower load usually means a little extra capacity out of the battery.  I 
realized that sentence might have been ambiguous.

 

 

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com  
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:56 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: RE: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

You can do the whole thing in Watts.

 

12V * 150ah = 1800 Watt-hours

1800Wh / 50W = 36 hours

 

If they’re telling me 95% efficiency, I’d assume 50W out needs 53W in (50 / 
0.95).   

There’s usually an efficiency curve for the device based on load and 
temperature so it wouldn’t be 95% in all circumstances.  Your system should be 
drawing less than 5A off the battery, and if your multimeter has a 10A fuse 
like most do, then you could put the meter in line and actually measure the 
amperage before and after the converter.  Then you’d know for sure.

 

And the battery’s total capacity will have a curve based on C-rate so there’s 
some variability there too.  Usually it lasts longer when you’re drawing lower 
amperage.  You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end.  

 

Age and maintenance of the battery affect runtime as well.  If I want 6 hours 
of runtime then I plan Ah for 12 hours runtime. When my batteries are halfway 
toasted I’m still getting useful life out of them.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 9:57 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

Just trying to cipher runtimes

I have on hand 150ah 12 volt batteries, so thats what id be looking to use.

Excluding the conversion loss of a 12v to 48v step up converter is the math 
correct here?

12v 150ah=1800 watt hours
1800 watt hours at 48v = 37.5ah
50 watts of radio running 48v = 1.04 amps
37.5ah @ 1.04 amps = 32.77 hours runtime

 

does a step up that claims 95% efficiency mean 95% of the watt hours?




-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Josh Luthman]

Four 150ah batteries would be a lot more coin than 12v to 48v if you can
afford the run time loss.

On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 9:53 AM Brian Webster 
wrote:

> How many of the batteries do you have? Do you need any voltages other than
> the 48 volts? If you have 4 batteries and only need 48 volts then wire them
> in series and not have to deal with the converter.
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Brian Webster
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *
> dmmoff...@gmail.com
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:59 AM
> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> *You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end *of capacity*.
>
> Lower load usually means a little extra capacity out of the battery.  I
> realized that sentence might have been ambiguous.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* dmmoff...@gmail.com 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:56 AM
> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
> *Subject:* RE: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> You can do the whole thing in Watts.
>
>
>
> 12V * 150ah = 1800 Watt-hours
>
> 1800Wh / 50W = 36 hours
>
>
>
> If they’re telling me 95% efficiency, I’d assume 50W out needs 53W in (50
> / 0.95).
>
> There’s usually an efficiency curve for the device based on load and
> temperature so it wouldn’t be 95% in all circumstances.  Your system should
> be drawing less than 5A off the battery, and if your multimeter has a 10A
> fuse like most do, then you could put the meter in line and actually
> measure the amperage before and after the converter.  Then you’d know for
> sure.
>
>
>
> And the battery’s total capacity will have a curve based on C-rate so
> there’s some variability there too.  Usually it lasts longer when you’re
> drawing lower amperage.  You’re around C/30 which should be on the high
> end.
>
>
>
> Age and maintenance of the battery affect runtime as well.  If I want 6
> hours of runtime then I plan Ah for 12 hours runtime. When my batteries are
> halfway toasted I’m still getting useful life out of them.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
> *Sent:* Monday, August 14, 2023 9:57 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> Just trying to cipher runtimes
>
> I have on hand 150ah 12 volt batteries, so thats what id be looking to use.
>
> Excluding the conversion loss of a 12v to 48v step up converter is the
> math correct here?
>
> 12v 150ah=1800 watt hours
> 1800 watt hours at 48v = 37.5ah
> 50 watts of radio running 48v = 1.04 amps
> 37.5ah @ 1.04 amps = 32.77 hours runtime
>
>
>
> does a step up that claims 95% efficiency mean 95% of the watt hours?
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Steve Jones]

we have a dozen or so, but are looking at pole mount micropops (our own
poles). We are losing a grain elevator site because they decommissioned the
elevator and theres no real options for the customers in some of the areas.
Im just trying to get to something we can get solar power with enough
battery to last through overcast. So Im calculating per battery runtimes,
then will look at number of batteries we would need to survive vs paying
for a ROW meter vs losing the customers. Just have to get to the cost per
customer to retain them and the benefit gained per pole


On Tue, Aug 15, 2023 at 8:53 AM Brian Webster 
wrote:

> How many of the batteries do you have? Do you need any voltages other than
> the 48 volts? If you have 4 batteries and only need 48 volts then wire them
> in series and not have to deal with the converter.
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Brian Webster
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *
> dmmoff...@gmail.com
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:59 AM
> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> *You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end *of capacity*.
>
> Lower load usually means a little extra capacity out of the battery.  I
> realized that sentence might have been ambiguous.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* dmmoff...@gmail.com 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:56 AM
> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
> *Subject:* RE: [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> You can do the whole thing in Watts.
>
>
>
> 12V * 150ah = 1800 Watt-hours
>
> 1800Wh / 50W = 36 hours
>
>
>
> If they’re telling me 95% efficiency, I’d assume 50W out needs 53W in (50
> / 0.95).
>
> There’s usually an efficiency curve for the device based on load and
> temperature so it wouldn’t be 95% in all circumstances.  Your system should
> be drawing less than 5A off the battery, and if your multimeter has a 10A
> fuse like most do, then you could put the meter in line and actually
> measure the amperage before and after the converter.  Then you’d know for
> sure.
>
>
>
> And the battery’s total capacity will have a curve based on C-rate so
> there’s some variability there too.  Usually it lasts longer when you’re
> drawing lower amperage.  You’re around C/30 which should be on the high
> end.
>
>
>
> Age and maintenance of the battery affect runtime as well.  If I want 6
> hours of runtime then I plan Ah for 12 hours runtime. When my batteries are
> halfway toasted I’m still getting useful life out of them.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Steve Jones
> *Sent:* Monday, August 14, 2023 9:57 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] battery nerd question
>
>
>
> Just trying to cipher runtimes
>
> I have on hand 150ah 12 volt batteries, so thats what id be looking to use.
>
> Excluding the conversion loss of a 12v to 48v step up converter is the
> math correct here?
>
> 12v 150ah=1800 watt hours
> 1800 watt hours at 48v = 37.5ah
> 50 watts of radio running 48v = 1.04 amps
> 37.5ah @ 1.04 amps = 32.77 hours runtime
>
>
>
> does a step up that claims 95% efficiency mean 95% of the watt hours?
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Brian Webster]

How many of the batteries do you have? Do you need any voltages other than the 
48 volts? If you have 4 batteries and only need 48 volts then wire them in 
series and not have to deal with the converter.

 

Thank you,

Brian Webster

 

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of dmmoff...@gmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:59 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

*You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end of capacity.  

Lower load usually means a little extra capacity out of the battery.  I 
realized that sentence might have been ambiguous.

 

 

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com  
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:56 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: RE: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

You can do the whole thing in Watts.

 

12V * 150ah = 1800 Watt-hours

1800Wh / 50W = 36 hours

 

If they’re telling me 95% efficiency, I’d assume 50W out needs 53W in (50 / 
0.95).   

There’s usually an efficiency curve for the device based on load and 
temperature so it wouldn’t be 95% in all circumstances.  Your system should be 
drawing less than 5A off the battery, and if your multimeter has a 10A fuse 
like most do, then you could put the meter in line and actually measure the 
amperage before and after the converter.  Then you’d know for sure.

 

And the battery’s total capacity will have a curve based on C-rate so there’s 
some variability there too.  Usually it lasts longer when you’re drawing lower 
amperage.  You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end.  

 

Age and maintenance of the battery affect runtime as well.  If I want 6 hours 
of runtime then I plan Ah for 12 hours runtime. When my batteries are halfway 
toasted I’m still getting useful life out of them.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 9:57 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

Just trying to cipher runtimes

I have on hand 150ah 12 volt batteries, so thats what id be looking to use.

Excluding the conversion loss of a 12v to 48v step up converter is the math 
correct here?

12v 150ah=1800 watt hours
1800 watt hours at 48v = 37.5ah
50 watts of radio running 48v = 1.04 amps
37.5ah @ 1.04 amps = 32.77 hours runtime

 

does a step up that claims 95% efficiency mean 95% of the watt hours?

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[dmmoffett]

*You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end of capacity.  

Lower load usually means a little extra capacity out of the battery.  I 
realized that sentence might have been ambiguous.

 

 

From: dmmoff...@gmail.com  
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2023 6:56 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: RE: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

You can do the whole thing in Watts.

 

12V * 150ah = 1800 Watt-hours

1800Wh / 50W = 36 hours

 

If they’re telling me 95% efficiency, I’d assume 50W out needs 53W in (50 / 
0.95).   

There’s usually an efficiency curve for the device based on load and 
temperature so it wouldn’t be 95% in all circumstances.  Your system should be 
drawing less than 5A off the battery, and if your multimeter has a 10A fuse 
like most do, then you could put the meter in line and actually measure the 
amperage before and after the converter.  Then you’d know for sure.

 

And the battery’s total capacity will have a curve based on C-rate so there’s 
some variability there too.  Usually it lasts longer when you’re drawing lower 
amperage.  You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end.  

 

Age and maintenance of the battery affect runtime as well.  If I want 6 hours 
of runtime then I plan Ah for 12 hours runtime. When my batteries are halfway 
toasted I’m still getting useful life out of them.

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Steve Jones
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 9:57 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

Just trying to cipher runtimes

I have on hand 150ah 12 volt batteries, so thats what id be looking to use.

Excluding the conversion loss of a 12v to 48v step up converter is the math 
correct here?

12v 150ah=1800 watt hours
1800 watt hours at 48v = 37.5ah
50 watts of radio running 48v = 1.04 amps
37.5ah @ 1.04 amps = 32.77 hours runtime

 

does a step up that claims 95% efficiency mean 95% of the watt hours?

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

[dmmoffett]

You can do the whole thing in Watts.

 

12V * 150ah = 1800 Watt-hours

1800Wh / 50W = 36 hours

 

If they’re telling me 95% efficiency, I’d assume 50W out needs 53W in (50 / 
0.95).   

There’s usually an efficiency curve for the device based on load and 
temperature so it wouldn’t be 95% in all circumstances.  Your system should be 
drawing less than 5A off the battery, and if your multimeter has a 10A fuse 
like most do, then you could put the meter in line and actually measure the 
amperage before and after the converter.  Then you’d know for sure.

 

And the battery’s total capacity will have a curve based on C-rate so there’s 
some variability there too.  Usually it lasts longer when you’re drawing lower 
amperage.  You’re around C/30 which should be on the high end.  

 

Age and maintenance of the battery affect runtime as well.  If I want 6 hours 
of runtime then I plan Ah for 12 hours runtime. When my batteries are halfway 
toasted I’m still getting useful life out of them.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Steve Jones
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2023 9:57 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] battery nerd question

 

Just trying to cipher runtimes

I have on hand 150ah 12 volt batteries, so thats what id be looking to use.

Excluding the conversion loss of a 12v to 48v step up converter is the math 
correct here?

12v 150ah=1800 watt hours
1800 watt hours at 48v = 37.5ah
50 watts of radio running 48v = 1.04 amps
37.5ah @ 1.04 amps = 32.77 hours runtime

 

does a step up that claims 95% efficiency mean 95% of the watt hours?

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

[AFMUG] battery nerd question

[Steve Jones]

Just trying to cipher runtimes
I have on hand 150ah 12 volt batteries, so thats what id be looking to use.
Excluding the conversion loss of a 12v to 48v step up converter is the math
correct here?
12v 150ah=1800 watt hours
1800 watt hours at 48v = 37.5ah
50 watts of radio running 48v = 1.04 amps
37.5ah @ 1.04 amps = 32.77 hours runtime

does a step up that claims 95% efficiency mean 95% of the watt hours?
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com